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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    thestia said:

    Wait, on live not every class has a +% damage ability score?

    Oathbound Paladins don't.
    Well that sounds like it was a problem unique to Oathbound Paladins!

    Speaking of ability scores, they should double or quadruple the +% bonus per point, but reduce how frequently characters increase in ability scores.
    If they're serious about the changeover to 5e, they certainly could.

    Bounded accuracy to a cap of 20 (except barbarians, but shhh), but with each point being significant (except odd-numbered points but shhhhh) is pretty in-keeping with 5e.

    Not sure how well that maps to an 80-level progression, though, especially with the other main form of incremental progression (power points) gone. I don't really think I'll miss power points, mind you; the devs were correct that in practice, it basically amounted to "save up four points before using a power."
    There's no need for each level up to be material.

    Honestly, they should change the +HP mechanic to +% base HP, and have your level be the main determinate of HP.

    From there, they can reduce +Ability scores to once every 20 levels or so. Max your ability score at 20 for level ups. Boons let you go up to 30 (just like Epic Boons from the 5E DMG). Boom boom boom, problem solved.
    Cryptic-launched games have a problem with, well, Cryptic mechanics. If they changed that to +%HP, we'd have to go through a whole nother round of testing to figure out where in the equation that plugged in. Not a reason not to do it, categorically, just... a wish that the game did a better job of explaining to use how it worked so we could readily make informed choices.

    Pfft, less information is better. They should get rid of explicit stats entirely, and just change everything to "Good. Great. Amazing. FANTASTIC!"
    shut up they'll hear you
    I mean, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6 is classic D&D right there~
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    To be honest, if they were more open about how stuff worked and it was all explained in a straight forward manner, the risk of people making the "wrong" choices would be reduced.

    Whether that be through tooltips or pages within the games menus that explain how damage is calculated, how AP gain works, how Deflect and Combat Advanatge work and what does Crit actually effect... What's the difference between Bolster and Companion Influence and what exactly does each DO?
    And not in some mathematical formulae system, but just straight talking.

    They can start by taking advantage of this overhaul, and make sure that terms match up. So we don't have issues with things like "Resistance" and "Avoidance" meaning the same thing.

    When they say "+5% chance by default" and it means "+2500 to the base stat before a percentage is calculated" it should be changed to say what it MEANS. It's not good enough to hand wave such a contradiction away and say that in this instance those two things are synonymous. Because people reading it who have a higher than basic level of English will not be aware that they are using two contradictory statements to mean the same thing, and will assume it means what it says.

    To quote Albert Einstein (or, possibly, slightly misquote him, but you'll get the idea...) "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough yourself."
    Either that, or you don't want anyone to see where the cracks have been papered over rather than properly fixed.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    To be honest, if they were more open about how stuff worked and it was all explained in a straight forward manner, the risk of people making the "wrong" choices would be reduced.

    Whether that be through tooltips or pages within the games menus that explain how damage is calculated, how AP gain works, how Deflect and Combat Advanatge work and what does Crit actually effect... What's the difference between Bolster and Companion Influence and what exactly does each DO?
    And not in some mathematical formulae system, but just straight talking.

    They can start by taking advantage of this overhaul, and make sure that terms match up. So we don't have issues with things like "Resistance" and "Avoidance" meaning the same thing.

    When they say "+5% chance by default" and it means "+2500 to the base stat before a percentage is calculated" it should be changed to say what it MEANS. It's not good enough to hand wave such a contradiction away and say that in this instance those two things are synonymous. Because people reading it who have a higher than basic level of English will not be aware that they are using two contradictory statements to mean the same thing, and will assume it means what it says.

    To quote Albert Einstein (or, possibly, slightly misquote him, but you'll get the idea...) "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough yourself."
    Either that, or you don't want anyone to see where the cracks have been papered over rather than properly fixed.

    The problem with full transparency is that it requires someone to explain everything. And that means every time they change things, they need to explain it. By keeping things pretty opaque, they don't get held to the "but you said X!" standard quite so much.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    To be honest, if they were more open about how stuff worked and it was all explained in a straight forward manner, the risk of people making the "wrong" choices would be reduced.

    Whether that be through tooltips or pages within the games menus that explain how damage is calculated, how AP gain works, how Deflect and Combat Advanatge work and what does Crit actually effect... What's the difference between Bolster and Companion Influence and what exactly does each DO?
    And not in some mathematical formulae system, but just straight talking.

    They can start by taking advantage of this overhaul, and make sure that terms match up. So we don't have issues with things like "Resistance" and "Avoidance" meaning the same thing.

    When they say "+5% chance by default" and it means "+2500 to the base stat before a percentage is calculated" it should be changed to say what it MEANS. It's not good enough to hand wave such a contradiction away and say that in this instance those two things are synonymous. Because people reading it who have a higher than basic level of English will not be aware that they are using two contradictory statements to mean the same thing, and will assume it means what it says.

    To quote Albert Einstein (or, possibly, slightly misquote him, but you'll get the idea...) "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough yourself."
    Either that, or you don't want anyone to see where the cracks have been papered over rather than properly fixed.

    The problem with full transparency is that it requires someone to explain everything. And that means every time they change things, they need to explain it. By keeping things pretty opaque, they don't get held to the "but you said X!" standard quite so much.
    It also means they can get players to do the unpaid labor of researching and explaining their system. If they're doing it deliberately, that's pretty low.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    The problem that arises from inaccurate descriptions, is that following them to make a good build actually makes a bad build. This rewards people for copying the actions, stats, gear, companions, mounts, and skills of successful players. On the flip side it punishes players for understanding what is stated by the game and designing a unique build of their own.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    By end game, there are about 450,000 stat points available, theoretically. In practice most end-game players will be in the 400,000 to 425,000 stat range. Unless Cryptic decides to fix deflection to make it actually worth putting points into... I see three Meta-stat forms emerging. "Robust" is useful for all paragons and makes solo content much easier, but will be lackluster in final dungeon. High DPS 'glass cannon' is challenging to play, but with proper survival support, will top DPS charts by a 25% margin. Most builds will be hybrids... but these are the true builds... designed for a purpose with the fat trimmed.


  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    Head, Armor, Main Hand, Off-Hand, Waist, Shirt, Pants slots are not properly displaying Combined Rating. Feet and Neck slots work inconsistently.

    When adding anyone of those items main stats of the item are updated, however, Combined Rating is not added to any stat. When adding a second item, (from the list above) the first item's Combined Rating is added, but not the second's. Add an item not on the list above and the Combined Rating comes up correctly. When removing an item from the list above the previously added item's Combined Rating is added. In the case of adding two items from the list above, only the first item's Combined Rating is displayed. When removing one of those two items, both items' Combined Ratings are displayed.

    I can provide a short video displaying this behavior, if necessary.
  • auron#6793 auron Member Posts: 386 Arc User
    so there is still no explination as to of why we can't roll our characters stats in mod 16. I feel this is a really stupid choice and without the ability to roll in mod 16, how can this game even be advertised as D&D based anymore?

    If you are going to remove a core element of D&D from a D&D based game at least give us a bleeping explanation WHY. (sorry for language but this decision just really grinds my gears)
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  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,133 Arc User

    so there is still no explination as to of why we can't roll our characters stats in mod 16. I feel this is a really stupid choice and without the ability to roll in mod 16, how can this game even be advertised as D&D based anymore?

    If you are going to remove a core element of D&D from a D&D based game at least give us a bleeping explanation WHY. (sorry for language but this decision just really grinds my gears)

    The devs have stated they are doing this to make things more egalitarian from the start. But read that as "keeping people from making bad decisions". Because, you know, we can't figure these things out on our own.

    That being said, I think it is really for two reasons. To keep coding simpler and to make things easier for when/if they port to another less robust format like mobile or switch. At this point they are just a small push away from pre-made characters that take all choice away.
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  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Now that preview has been going for several weeks now and there has been an immense level of feedback for us to review, we have made some core changes to further improve the balance. These will likely go to preview later this week, barring any complications.

    • Ratings now convert at 1000 rating points to 1%
    • Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.
    • Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
    • Encounter and Daily magnitudes have been brought down, making At-Will powers more effective in relation.
    • Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board
    • Multi-target At-Wills have had their damage increased

    So why were these particular changes made?

    With the values ratings currently have, players routinely either have below the threshold for a given rating which means it has zero effectiveness, or they have wasted stats because the cap for effectiveness has been exceeded.

    By changing the conversion from 500 to 1% to 1000 to 1% it gives a wider variance in values. This in turn allowed us to lower the critter ratings so that players who have even minimal viable gear should find it easy to see some effectiveness from their ratings. In addition, separating the critter ratings into two categories allows for all ratings to have similar investments put into them for effectiveness. The way it is on preview now, players need over twice as much for half their ratings which is an odd balancing act.

    There has been no shortage of talk about At-Wills not feeling meaningful enough to want to use. While mathematically over the course of a fight, or dungeon run, they added up to a significant amount of damage, it didn't feel that way due to the size of individual hits. To bring At-Wills closer to other powers, we reduced the magnitudes of Encounter and Dailies and reduced overall critter health to adjust for the lower overall damage.

    As with all aspects, further changes could happen before this goes live.
    So what you're saying is, an opening Fireball is no longer as big of a deal.

    Super lame!

    I do approve of the 1000 = 1% change, however.
  • isaacorion#1994 isaacorion Member Posts: 106 Arc User

    Now that preview has been going for several weeks now and there has been an immense level of feedback for us to review, we have made some core changes to further improve the balance. These will likely go to preview later this week, barring any complications.

    • Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
    Any chance we could get the numbers for Level 80 mobs and Lair of Mad Mage enemies?
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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User


    Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
    50k difference skews the values considerably.

    Putting stats into Accuracy becomes useless. ArP still needs to be invested and 57k+ stats sunk


    This is an optimal spread of 200k stats without forcing stats into anything (minimal addition is 0),


    While in reality there will be forced stats, meaning we will be close on the Crit and CA, the sunk ArP will be interesting, And Accuracy... I don't think anyone will sink 57k+ stats there, ever.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited March 2019


    Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.

    On second thought, is this correct or a mistake?

    Maximum of 80% ignored or resisted!

    If this correct, we will always, in regular circumstances (without those temporary debuffs), deal only 50% of our damage, even with maxed ArP ????
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:


    Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
    Putting stats into Accuracy becomes useless. ArP still needs to be invested and 57k+ stats sunk

    While in reality there will be forced stats, meaning we will be close on the Crit and CA, the sunk ArP will be interesting, And Accuracy... I don't think anyone will sink 57k+ stats there, ever.
    I know that a lot of players do like to min/max their values, but you don't need 57k accuracy to see a result.

    If you put nothing into accuracy then the opponent will have a 50% deflect chance against you. Once you cross 7k, you start reducing this. If you get it to 32k then you will have reduced the deflect chance to 25%, that is still a very useful reduction.

    You wouldn't want over 57k stats in Armor Pen or Accuracy as the effectiveness would max out at 57k fighting those level 70 mobs.
    Yes, I will see results, but half of the results, I would gain as opposed to the spread of showed above.
    And Yes, I wouldn't want over 57k, that was the maximum optimal spread, my point is that I will want to sink is 57k stats into ArP before I will even think of one point into accuracy, because I will gain considerably more benefit from it
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.

    On second thought, is this correct or a mistake?

    Maximum of 80% ignored or resisted!

    If this correct, we will always, in regular circumstances (without those temporary debuffs), deal only 50% of our damage, even with maxed ArP ????
    This is more about player defense, the max a player can have is 50% Damage resisted, with spikes to 80% with certain abilities. Monster defense is separate and is countered by player Armor penetration, but if you have 0 arpen you could be doing 50% of your normal damage if the monster has 50k+ defense.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Well at least this makes knowing what your stats are easier at least.

    Though I kind of have to wonder why not just divide everything by 1000 and put the real stats on the character sheet?
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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    arazith07 said:

    micky1p00 said:


    Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.

    On second thought, is this correct or a mistake?

    Maximum of 80% ignored or resisted!

    If this correct, we will always, in regular circumstances (without those temporary debuffs), deal only 50% of our damage, even with maxed ArP ????
    This is more about player defense, the max a player can have is 50% Damage resisted, with spikes to 80% with certain abilities. Monster defense is separate and is countered by player Armor penetration, but if you have 0 arpen you could be doing 50% of your normal damage if the monster has 50k+ defense.
    Currently, the same damage formula applies from the player to the mobs, and from the mobs to the player. This either means that we are nerfed, or it means as you say, that with 0 effective ArP we will do 50% damage and not 20%.
    Unless the target or the player increases mitigation not-from stats.

    (and mobs to us btw)

    The stat spread from above, assumes the second.
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    "Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored."

    plz don't let this lead again to damage resistance over buffing like we have going on the live server !! With DCs capping the dmg resistance of the whole team and everyone ignoring dmg and "reds". The only difference between a tank and a dps will be the HP one! Make the temorary buff, capped or even a self buff, so we don't have everyone running around with max res without any invest in DEF!

    Best
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,133 Arc User

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

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  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    What are the stats for lair of mad mage and level 80 enemies?
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