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MOD 16 show some love

soulseeker#1880 soulseeker Member Posts: 84 Arc User
edited May 2019 in PvE Discussion
Mmhhmm
Post edited by soulseeker#1880 on
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  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    The biggest problem with mod 16, is that they're slowing down a fast paced, action oriented game.
    The removal of recovery and the increase of encounter cooldowns across the board really hits the gameplay experience hard, coming from a mod 15 perspective. Add on it the general nerf of At-Wills and the game simply feels much slower and clunkier compared to before. This is not just a balance change, this is a paradigm shift of the game as a whole in its core component. It's pretty serious.

    I agree that live has severe issues at the moment, but there were alternative approaches to try before trying to redesign everything.
    Examples of fixing current issues could have been:

    1) Nerfing Armor Penetration to make it scale like other stats. (400 = 1% instead of 200 = 1%). This was also done, in a different way, on mod 16.
    2) Changing % buffs to additive instead of multiplicative (If you get a 30% dps buff and a 20% dps buff, you get a 50% dps increase, instead of 56% increase like now).
    3) Rework the power shares to provide fixed % increases instead of scalable power buffs. Or make a mix with a much lower power component.
    4) AP generation could have been nerfed down, and maybe a cooldown could have been put on Dailies. Not all, but at least the most problematic, gamebreaking ones.

    Now instead they have to work with these groundbreaking changes, and there's a likelyhood that they might not manage to properly fix by "spring". Right now preview is a mess filled with bugs and severe unbalances, much more than live. They have taken one ste forward, but two steps back in this sense.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    > @soulseeker#1880 said:
    > So many of you are complaining about this and that about the changes etc. Guess what they are coming so stop complaining and deal with it. Personally I look forward to this change, the game is at a state where if you are high level nothing is fun, who cares if you can run End game dungeons is 30 minutes great go do it again.
    >
    > I love this game and I love D&D and to bring the 5th edition rules to the game is great. I play a DC now and people who do, usually do because they like the class and in the current state of the game DC's aren't DC's I want to heal and at the end see the heals and be like yup I kept you alive so we could make.
    >
    > Life steal, recovery DO NOT exist in D&D so why are they here? Because years ago you all complained well I am glad its gone and this is coming from someone that has 25k on Recovery.....
    >
    > I think the new area looks AMAZING and if any of you have any idea how hard it is to code something like that and to turn out that good looking you would not be complaining. Does it have bugs, yes they just put it out for test 1 day ago. You are the testers on a mass scale so give the feedback let them fix it and last time I checked ALL games have bugs... why do you think we have updates.
    >
    > In closing in the world we are in today so many of you want everything now and everything for free no one wants to work for anything and no one wants to wait and its sad. If you don't like the game then leave and stop the complaining because there are plenty of us that love it welcome and don't want to play it with people complaining today and next month and next year.

    Perhaps you are confusing (or more likely confounding) baseless rants with constructive criticism.

    I have 5 1/2 years and too-much lunch-money invested in this game to NOT give feedback when I see something on preview that is either broken or breaks my enjoyment of the game.

    So, sorry/not sorry.
    I paid the price of admission.
    Imma give constuctive criticism in hope that it will make the game better.

    Deal or ignore.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • brainfirebob#3208 brainfirebob Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    > @soulseeker#1880 said:
    > The issue with all this is you don't like it because your character is god like and nothing can kill it and you look like a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>

    Non substantive, reeks of envy and resentment.

    > I You now will have to actually work (play the game) to achieve something. I truly don't see the fun in a game when you can run the end game dungeons and not even die or a tank not even lose health or need any healing... Where is the fun please tell me

    Improvement. The first 15 times I tried T9G, I failed to complete. The last time, I managed to not die at all. That's not binary- I worked and got steadily better and have now earned being that good, from my POV, and my reward center is engaged when that's reaffirmed.

    I am sorry you resent people blitzing off and you can't keep up, but THEY DID NOT START THERE. You are missing the commonly YEARS of growth that let's them do that. When you have achieved the same- paid the same dues, as it were-then you have a right to complain.
    >
    > Also I have seen someone work on their build for days now on the preview server and he has a build that's now posted and I have seen him run the new areas with no issues, as a matter of fact he killed that new Dragon on his on with very little issues... So cant anyone give it a chance then complain..... Because we are in a society where we complain about everything and everyone instead of looking and doing first.

    Sometimes you can see things obviously. It's not that it can't be done, people are within their rights to be turned off by changes this radical.
  • benyrbenyr Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    I've run through the entire Undermountain quest line on preview on Solo, including ending up soloing the shadow dragon at the end if that's the dragon you're referring to? Actually that dragon is easy to solo, as is the vast majority of Undermountain, except for the final stage of of the last section, with all the vampires and necromancers where the difficulty ramps up massively. My issue is not with how hard or easy the new mod is, its the fact that my biggest issue with getting through the campaign was motivating myself to keep going, as the game play was so dull and slow going.
    I really don't mind about a lot of the changes, I'm fine with the removal of recovery and life steal and the introduction of opposing stats. I can accept preview this early will be full of bugs, but I play this game as a hobby because i enjoy it. I wont be playing it if its this boring when it hits live.
    Therefore, whilst there is any chance that alterations will be made before Mod 16 goes live, ill keep calling for them. You're probably right in saying its futile, but i have to try and keep the game I love. And if changes are not made i'll simply walk away, no recriminations no screaming a shouting, ill accept it and find a new pass time.
  • boghy89#1675 boghy89 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I left wow for exactly the same reason after playng it for 12 years, i found this game and i like it, now its going in the same bad direction like wow did, i think its a new greedy strategy where they make everything take alot of time to do in the hopes of keeping you online as much as posibile, lemme tell you from experience, it will backfire becaus people will get boored real fast.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    > @feanor70118 said:
    > Yeah, whatever. I don't see that any player input on how to improve the game went into this.
    > And hey, guess what? Telling people to shut up and accept your opinion doesn't work. So deal with people disagreeing with you. Those disagreements are coming so stop thinking you can tell people what to do and just accept it.

    This.
    The company already has it's token players; official sycophants who parrot their interest and silence dissent.
    We don't want want more.

    Some are just expressing their displeasure.
    Many others of us are spending hours on preview, then giving constructive criticism.
    Telling us to "shut up and like it" helps no one.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • brainfirebob#3208 brainfirebob Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    > @soulseeker#1880 said:
    > And guess what you left WOW and its still doing just fine and has more people playing now then before. So walk away from here as well I don't care.
    > You are feel like you are entitled to something and you are not, you have ever right to walk away and play what? IF you like WOW and This what will you play if every time a change is made you runaway? Yes there are a couple others out there but they are horrible that's why your aren't playing them.

    What reality do you live in?

    WoW peaked at over 10 million subs a decade ago. They haven't released numbers since 2015 officially, but a leak implied it might be down to 1.7 million last November.

    People can hate what you love, it's not personal.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    Mod 16

    So many of you are complaining about this and that about the changes etc. Guess what they are coming so stop complaining and deal with it. Personally I look forward to this change, the game is at a state where if you are high level nothing is fun, who cares if you can run End game dungeons is 30 minutes great go do it again.

    I love this game and I love D&D and to bring the 5th edition rules to the game is great. I play a DC now and people who do, usually do because they like the class and in the current state of the game DC's aren't DC's I want to heal and at the end see the heals and be like yup I kept you alive so we could make.

    Life steal, recovery DO NOT exist in D&D so why are they here? Because years ago you all complained well I am glad its gone and this is coming from someone that has 25k on Recovery.....

    I think the new area looks AMAZING and if any of you have any idea how hard it is to code something like that and to turn out that good looking you would not be complaining. Does it have bugs, yes they just put it out for test 1 day ago. You are the testers on a mass scale so give the feedback let them fix it and last time I checked ALL games have bugs... why do you think we have updates.

    In closing in the world we are in today so many of you want everything now and everything for free no one wants to work for anything and no one wants to wait and its sad. If you don't like the game then leave and stop the complaining because there are plenty of us that love it welcome and don't want to play it with people complaining today and next month and next year.

    A RPGMMO like NWO typically provides players the ability to truly customize their characters. Mod 16 is taking what we had for options away from us as players: Providing players with static starting ability score rolls, removal of feats, and removal of powers from the classes are not ways to improve the game or allow us additional customization.


    The devs wanted to simplify the game and they did just that with changes to building a character, but at the same breath they expand what we have with companions or more simply added additional complexity. That to me goes against what their goal was with mod 16, and that is making things easier and simple for players; instead this adds a bit more complexity to the game, something I like but now I'm more dependent on acquiring additional companions come mod 16 do to these changes. These changes are an added cost to players that may have already spent time to acquire AD or money to acquire the AD to get the their current companions. Devs changes here on companions seem like a way for us to spend additional in game resources or real world money. I'm sure down the road this will be simplified as the mod 16 companions changes maybe to complex for some players and well complexity is not something the devs want so this may go away sooner than later.

    As for stats like recovery; recovery on my DC prior to killing her off had around 45K recovery. My GF also now dead had around 20K recovery. My CW the lone character to survive the mod 16 killing spree by me still has around 25K recovery.

    As someone that always plays a cleric in D&D games, mod 16 clerics is not a clerics in D&D. They are a typical RPG healer with minimal D&D feel to them.

    The only classes that feels like a D&D characters in mod 16 are the wizard and Barbarian. The rest of the classes need to be ADJUSTED to be closer to their actual D&D design. IMO, mod 16 is nothing more than a way to simplify the game for the devs and another way to garner additional revenue through companion changes before the devs decide to hack companion further like they did with character feats and ability scores.

    My best guess is that this game will probably meet the same fate as City of Heroes sooner than later if the devs continue down the path of reducing complexity to this game.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    I will complain about anything I so desire..

    Ive paid money, im a customer..

    I probably have posted more complaints then near anyone! Do I win a prize? I probably have more time in complaining then you do playing the game!

    Game has been trash monster for years.. and a grind fest for ages, its really been sort of sucky since mod 2, (with occasional fun between).. Ive even tank long breaks (up to a year) but have come back , because alot of other mmos are ALSO trash monsters.

    They are not special cupcakes here... modern day mmos drop way to much grind on people too often, I probably do double the grind here then back in EQ 1.. and it took me like a year to level a player back then.. but at least players around the same level could do similar content and there wasnt 199% power difference (and no mod 16.. doesnt fix that.. ) in fact mod 16 DOUBLE downs on that.. so my lovely 8 month long journey in EQ 1.. for that lvl 60 Paladin.. didnt really matter, as soon as you turn back then certain levels and unlocked certain spells, you were good enough to play with everyone around you. As long as you knew the basics of the game and your class.. you were good enough.. the differences between most gear was just small % points back then.

    Going forward if you dont have Da Stats.. you are Da worthless. Its far more exaggerated then it is now.. all of these new lovely counter stats, has demanded it.. If you dont have them, you will be doing HAMSTER fest x zero damage.

    The comical thing about mod 16.. is the pacing, its practically a different game.. and while the game couldve started that way, retrograding it down at this point.. seems pointless to me.

    I will probably call it quitsville again for awhile at least.. until all the mad rush for the superstellars out there are over making everything expensive for 3-4 months is over. Best to avoid that if possible.

    List of things that Mod 16 does wrong.. Lets discuss this in the no complaints thread!

    1. Pacing, in general.. so much slower and boring.
    2. Nerfing and REselling of power (500 to 1 vs 400 to 1, then a new rank up enchant) Just super insulting to customers.
    3. Paid expensive Zen comps like tiger and jimbobby becoming zen useless.. ya! Good thing we spend real life money on those!
    4. The countless abilities and feats removed.. so you can be just like everyone else! Because we cant make decisions.. even wrong ones, tis best to make the game as generally dumb as possible. Because apparently all players are stupid.. and dumb!
    5. The many , FORCED feats now we have to take, that in generally are really stupid and dumb. Two choices of wrong feats.. lets celebrate. the many powers forced on your side of it..
    6. The continued nerfing of VIP stuff.. whoopie do lets rejoice.. you think we will get even 50% of the value lost on it back?

    In general I had stopped posting about alot of stuff in the game.. but when players start telling other players to stop giving feedback.. screw it!

    Do I think it will be changed.. NAw, not really, but its not a "better" game, there will be aspects that may be a bit more "fun" but its like most of it.. there are alot of bad things about to happen, to install a small bit of good things.




  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    I have to chuckle when I see some complaints about the new mod, as if this was something new..

    1. "All builds will be the same!" - because currently if someone asks how to build for , they aren't immediately referred to one of maybe 2 guides for that class?

    2. "My gear becomes useless!" - well, yeah. That happens in MMOs. and especially with a raise in level cap. What gear did you have before Chult / Omu? Replace anything with CR kit? Get the AI helm?

    3. "So many abilities removed!" - you mean the ones that any decent guide said "DO NOT USE! EVER!"? Those feats and powers? The unused will not be missed.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    > @cdnbison said:
    > I have to chuckle when I see some complaints about the new mod, as if this was something new..
    >
    > 1. "All builds will be the same!" - because currently if someone asks how to build for , they aren't immediately referred to one of maybe 2 guides for that class?
    >
    > 2. "My gear becomes useless!" - well, yeah. That happens in MMOs. and especially with a raise in level cap. What gear did you have before Chult / Omu? Replace anything with CR kit? Get the AI helm?
    >
    > 3. "So many abilities removed!" - you mean the ones that any decent guide said "DO NOT USE! EVER!"? Those feats and powers? The unused will not be missed.

    So much wrong.
    1) Those "1 or 2" builds were by CHOICE.
    The meta was not forced on us.
    Players CHOSE it.
    Choice and consequences of choice are an important part and fun of both D&D and MMOs in general.
    We had dozens of build choices.
    Theorycrafters tested every possible permutation in synergy with every variety of party compositions.
    Mod 16 offers no meaningful choices.

    2. This is not a typical MMO gear expiration which is gradual and incremental.
    Your own example proves that.
    Chult gear did not instantly become useless at the start of Ravenloft. Some are still using Chult rings and weapons as they work toward better gear.
    Mod16 Instantly makes a trememendous amount of gear useless. That is NOT common or reasonable.

    3.
    Ask a GF if Knight's Valor or tab-mark were "useless".
    Ask a DC if Battle Fervor or Weapons of Light were "useless".
    I could name a dozen more examples.

    Strike three.

    You love Mod 16. Fine. We get it. Good for you.
    Stop telling the rest of us to shut up.
    We are trying to make Mod16 better.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • lordnagy#1603 lordnagy Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    > @cdnbison said:
    > I have to chuckle when I see some complaints about the new mod, as if this was something new..
    >
    > 1. "All builds will be the same!" - because currently if someone asks how to build for , they aren't immediately referred to one of maybe 2 guides for that class?
    >
    > 2. "My gear becomes useless!" - well, yeah. That happens in MMOs. and especially with a raise in level cap. What gear did you have before Chult / Omu? Replace anything with CR kit? Get the AI helm?
    >
    > 3. "So many abilities removed!" - you mean the ones that any decent guide said "DO NOT USE! EVER!"? Those feats and powers? The unused will not be missed.

    Have you even been on preview to see what has become of feats and boons?

    If yes, then you’re a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

    If no, then perhaps you should so you don’t sound ignorant as you did in your third point.
  • lordnagy#1603 lordnagy Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    > @soulseeker#1880 said:
    > I left wow for exactly the same reason after playng it for 12 years, i found this game and i like it, now its going in the same bad direction like wow did, i think its a new greedy strategy where they make everything take alot of time to do in the hopes of keeping you online as much as posibile, lemme tell you from experience, it will backfire becaus people will get boored real fast.
    >
    > And guess what you left WOW and its still doing just fine and has more people playing now then before. So walk away from here as well I don't care.
    > You are feel like you are entitled to something and you are not, you have ever right to walk away and play what? IF you like WOW and This what will you play if every time a change is made you runaway? Yes there are a couple others out there but they are horrible that's why your aren't playing them.
    >
    > You all miss the point, point is its changing deal with it but you haven't even tried it. There are plenty of people that do like it and plenty that don't and the ones that have played it and don't like it fine I am ok with that but the ones that haven't stop complaining until you do. Again you all feel entitled to everything and you are entitled to nothing. You have played the game and the money you spent you have got your money worth of playing. Now there is a change. You don't go buy a game and when you are done with it want your money back.... So its changing you get a new game and move on but damn stop your bitching.

    Yes we get it...you’re “jazzed” got the new content!

    I seriously doubt you have actually played preview. If so, you’d understand the complaints/feedback given.

    So here’s something, stop bitching about people bitching...YOU deal with it or stay away from the forums.

    WE were asked to preview the game and WE have given feedback. If it doesn’t fit into your cheery narrative of what’s coming, too <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> bad...
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    >


    Have you even been on preview to see what has become of feats and boons?



    If yes, then you’re a HAMSTER.



    If no, then perhaps you should so you don’t sound ignorant as you did in your third point.

    Yes, I have been on preview, and spent some time playing there on my main (DC). Fights that I was one-shotting through on live now actually took more than two brain cells to complete, without being overly difficult. It was *gasp* fun!

    The feats force choice, as opposed to, say, the cookie cutter AC DC builds that have been the cornerstone for groups for too long. Go check some DC guides and check the feat selection - notice anything? Notice how the feat and boon selection is virtually identical?

    Now, had you been reading closely, I didn't say it was a perfect system, but I can work within it. I'd prefer to see some more difficult choices to be made on the boon tree - i.e. put all the +dmg / dmg resist on one tier, all the stat bonuses on another etc etc., and possibly a third choice on each feat. I get (and kind of like) the idea of the feats working on specific powers; it's a form of specialization, to add something more to your toon. If the balancing works as planned, it should lead to some potential variety in builds (i.e. is good if you play like this, is good if you play like that).

    Terribly sorry if my having fun has ruined your merry little ragefest.
  • auron#6793 auron Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    Sorry but i cannot show love for something that strips away a core element of D&D. Rolling for stats has always been present in D&D and removing it is just not right.
    <div align="center"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/YH9QCXK.png" alt="" /></div></img>
    .....____
    ..../ __ \_________ ______
    .../ / / / ___/ __ `/ ___/
    ../ /_/ / / / /_/ / /__
    /_____/_/ \__'_/\___/
    There is supposed to be an image here, but the hamsters took it.
    <div align="center">AKA Draconis of Luskan</div>

    Maybe it is stupid, but it's also dumb! ~ Patrick Star

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  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,083 Arc User
    ...which is why they implemented a point buy system in lieu of random rolls in D&D?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    >
    So much wrong.

    1) Those "1 or 2" builds were by CHOICE.

    The meta was not forced on us.

    Players CHOSE it.

    Choice and consequences of choice are an important part and fun of both D&D and MMOs in general.

    We had dozens of build choices.

    Theorycrafters tested every possible permutation in synergy with every variety of party compositions.

    Mod 16 offers no meaningful choices.



    2. This is not a typical MMO gear expiration which is gradual and incremental.

    Your own example proves that.

    Chult gear did not instantly become useless at the start of Ravenloft. Some are still using Chult rings and weapons as they work toward better gear.

    Mod16 Instantly makes a trememendous amount of gear useless. That is NOT common or reasonable.



    3.

    Ask a GF if Knight's Valor or tab-mark were "useless".

    Ask a DC if Battle Fervor or Weapons of Light were "useless".

    I could name a dozen more examples.



    Strike three.



    You love Mod 16. Fine. We get it. Good for you.

    Stop telling the rest of us to shut up.

    We are trying to make Mod16 better.

    First, had you read closely, I never told anyone to shut up. But if people are going to complain, they should at least come up with valid criticisms, and back their work. Now, point by point...

    1. Oh, yes, "choice"... and if you decided to make a 'fun' build for endgame, you'd be promptly votekicked. Great way to encourage that choice. "Congratulations on your choice! You will now be laughed at by other players for choosing wrong, and be exiled from any late-game activities!" I bet that *really* encouraged people to think outside the box, right Archery HRs and Whisperknife TRs?

    2. Pre-Ravenloft, almost 100% of that gear was from Chult. For many (who don't want to do CR due to bugs), it's still probably close to 100% of their gear, and their companion gear. It's been 4 mods since Chult arrived - we're all due for an upgrade. *Especially* from the tired Demo neck/waist/artifact combo, which is even older. Coupled with the level cap raise, the need to swap gear is even more apparent - there aren't many MMOs that raise the cap, then not go through a gear swap.

    Is it going to be easy to get the new gear? That depends on what you want, I guess. Will you need to replace everything right away? No. A lot of end-game players won't be replacing stuff for many, many levels - which you're fully aware of, as you've played to 80, right? Will you be able to play just fine without the bestest gear? Yes. But that's part of the game - going out, doing the work, and finally achieving your goal of getting . We're all going to be just fine.

    3. I didn't say there weren't old favorites going by the wayside. But ask DCs (at level 70) how often we used Geas. Or Sun Burst. Or Healing Word. Or specced into the Faithful feat tree. Or past Gift of Haste in the Virtuous tree. The TR 'bible' specifically references multiple powers and feats that should never, on pain of being kicked in the shins, be taken. Did you see many GFs running Iron Warrior much? Ferocious Reaction? Enduring Warrior? Take the Pin Down feat?

    Face it - there were more powers and feats that were 'don't take' than 'must have'. I'd much rather have a system where I'm faced with "It's good, if you set up like this" for each power / feat. If things go as planned, it means that there should be some actual variety in toons, where people can take powers and feats that fit their playstyle, and still be effective. Where mixing things up doesn't result in players getting shunned.

    Yes, some old favorites are gone. I'll miss some of them, too, and yes, it forces us to re-learn the class, to a certain degree. That's not ideal. It's not, however, the end of the world. Look past the "it's different, and I can't do it the way I used to - therefore, I hate it", and actually play the game. Go with what is there. We're all taking longer to kill stuff, all our powers / feats / boons got shuffled, and the gear is going to be shuffled out. While there are times I enjoy just blasting through zones one-shotting groups of mobs, it becomes a bit of a bore. I mean, if you can't stand being challenged at all, and just want EZ-mode with loot, that's fine, I guess, but I actually enjoy not being able to auto-pilot through current content, with nary a care in the world, because I know I'm nigh unkillable.

    What's on Preview is a good - if imperfect - start. It's been fun watching powers and feats get reworked into something more fitting, and following constructive feedback on said issues (hint: they don't involve gear upgrades or "bring back !"). The changes, and logic behind them are always good discussions to follow.

    But we get it. You hate all this change, and it threatens your status as a "BiS Uber Toon". It doesn't necessarily make the change 'bad', or what we're currently using in mod15 'good'. It just means things are changing.
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    @cdnbison said:
    >"But if people are going to complain, they should at least come up with valid criticisms, and back their work. "

    "back their work"? I've spent 1-2 hours every day on Mod 16 preview testing 4 toons in the past month.
    I have posted over 50 evidence-based properly color-fonted comments in the preview forums.
    Constructive criticism. The developers want this.

    >"I never told anyone to shut up."
    Here are your own words:
    "You hate all this change, and it threatens your status as a "BiS Uber Toon""
    "ruined your merry little ragefest."
    These are not "valid criticisms".
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem


    cdnbison said:
    > "1. Oh, yes, "choice"... and if you decided to make a 'fun' build for endgame, you'd be promptly votekicked. Great way to encourage that choice. "Congratulations on your choice! You will now be laughed at by other players for choosing wrong, and be exiled from any late-game activities!" I bet that *really* encouraged people to think outside the box, right Archery HRs and Whisperknife TRs?"
    >
    Again, you missed the point and are redirecting the argument to an unrelated topic.
    The meta was never instant from a Mod release date or rebalancing patch. Players took weeks or months playing different variations of their builds. This was an important part of the game for many people.
    And, yes, some people defied the meta and continued to play as an Archer or GF-Protector because it was fun for them.

    You are confounding this feature of choice with community toxicities. Different topic.
    If you are getting vote-kicked every day for playing an archer, just play with your friends and guildies.
    If you are getting kicked by your friends and guildies... you need new friends and a new guild.

    > "3. I didn't say there weren't old favorites going by the wayside."
    No, you did worse. You misquoted @silverkelt who was saying many foundational powers and feats were eliminated.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
    You then misdirected to an irrelevant list of cherry-picked worthless feats.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

    > "What's on Preview is a good - if imperfect - start. It's been fun watching powers and feats get reworked into something more fitting, and following constructive feedback on said issues (hint: they don't involve gear upgrades or "bring back !"). The changes, and logic behind them are always good discussions to follow."

    "Good" is subjective. You are projecting your opinions onto others.
    If you have been reading all the preview forums, you should know that many players have a different opinion.
    Ironic: the preview testers who give that constructive criticism fueling that "fun discussion" are the same ones you call "BiS Uber" and "ragefest".

    > "But we get it. You hate all this change,"
    By "we" you mean yourself and the one other person who agreed with you ITT. Every other response disagrees with you.
    Also, Strawman argument again. Nobody here said that. You really seem to like Strawman arguments.

    >"and it threatens your status as a "BiS Uber Toon". It doesn't necessarily make the change 'bad', or what we're currently using in mod15 'good'.
    Again, you fall back to ad-hominem with some added misquotation.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
    Please reference where anyone here claimed status as a "BiS Uber Toon".

    >" It just means things are changing."

    Here, at last, is a rational factual point we can agree on. Things are changing and we must respond or leave the game.

    My response:
    Test for hundreds of hours on preview. Collect ACT data. Give the devs evidence-based constructive criticism.
    Your response:
    Criticize those who test and give constructive criticism and feedback on Mod16.

    I'll let history decide which of us is making the game better.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    > @dread4moor said:

    > My response:
    > Test for hundreds of hours on preview. Collect ACT data. Give the devs evidence-based constructive criticism.
    > Your response:
    > Criticize those who test and give constructive criticism and feedback on Mod16.
    >
    > I'll let history decide which of us is making the game better.
    >

    Go back to my very first post on the matter. Read closely.

    1. Now, do players have to have the same build in mod16? Additionally, will they be 'encouraged' to only play a build that "Theorycrafters tested (with) every possible permutation in synergy with every variety of party compositions."

    Is it far easier for a new player to make a toon that is far more effective in mod16 (thus avoiding many of the possible pitfalls in the current system)?

    2. Gear upgrades happen every expansion. With AI, the complaint was that the gear wasn't good enough to make it worthwhile upgrading much. We got a couple mods off from the upgrade treadmill. Time to play catch up. Bonus - more grinding for gear = content staying somewhat relevant longer.

    3. I notice you're not disputing the large numbers of 'avoid these' powers and feats.
    EDIT: Oh, wait, you responded in-line, and tell me *I* am cherry picking? An entire paragon path, another entire tree from another paragon - that's cherry picking. But listing a couple of individual powers *isn't*? They were "foundational"? Dude(tte), I main a DC - this is the third or fourth kick at the can for our class mechanic. And, if anything, you pretty much confirm the "one build to rule them all" problem that led to the removal of so many powers / feats.

    Are you sure you've "tested for hundreds of hours"?

    Even if you do test lots (which I'm now seriously doubting) - great. Good on ya! Most people don't / haven't, and - had you fully read my comments - you would have picked up on the fact that that is who my comments were aimed at; the people who see only that they no longer have BiS gear, and will no longer have powers / a playstyle they've become used to. The "Erhmegawd, mah IBS!" crowd. The people who haven't noticed that there are companions with offensive stats that go in defensive slots. That *gasp* there may be more than one way to be effective beyond what <guide X> said.

    If a players enjoyment of the game comes from a particular power, or piece of gear, I'm unsure why they'd be playing an MMO. I'm also feeling fairly confident that - while I'm sure their will be a 'most-optimal' build for each class - it's also looking like *not* having said build will not have the chance to be anywhere near as crippling as it is now for an average player (by, say, taking Whisperknife).

    Having played on Preview, I'm OK with where my DC currently sits. It takes some adjustments, sure, but I'm still having fun - which is kinda the point of gaming.
    Post edited by cdnbison on
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    Let's shift the tone a bit, @dread4moor, I have enough to be angry about in the real world... ;-)

    You test lots, I dabble, we both play, and likely have for some time.

    I think we can agree on a few things here - 1. there's plenty of HAMSTER in the current feat / power trees, and it needed to be addressed. 2. The new system *does* remove a lot of stuff which leads to 3. It's going to change the playstyle of pretty much everyone (if only because we're not one-shotting stuff anymore), and some old favorites / standards (g'bye AA!) are disappearing with the unwanted.

    Agreed?

    Ok, now mod16 has issues - I'm pretty sure we can agree on that, too. From your testing, though, how much of it is due to, say, a power needing to be tweaked (i.e. " states 'weapon damage x magnitude 100', only gives 'wpn dmg x 50') vs something that just doesn't work (i.e. unfixable / totally unplayable)? I'm of the opinion that most of what's there is workable, and it is more a question of balancing things out now ('adjust magnitude on ') - for the most part. Mechanically, most things are pretty sound - tab powers are working, roles (tank / DPS / heals) are accomplishing what they should be doing etc etc.

    I personally think the feats being mostly power-specific is a solid idea, as it encourages players to take what fits a playstyle they are comfortable with, as opposed to make them play in a pre-prescribed way, and lose minimal effectiveness, if at all. I'd have liked less reliance on *second* powers in the feats, though (DC: if you cast BtS, Geas lasts 6s longer). That doesn't make one choice, it makes two. I'd also liked to have seen a third row of far more generic - if less powerful - feats as a 'meh, I don't like these powers' choice (i.e. for said DC feat above, say, 'you get +1% incoming / outgoing healing'').

    Now (and this is my original point) - how many people have actually looked at all that, before forming their judgement? How many just saw 'No AA' and decided that mod16 was "ruining" the game? Or that because they'd have to upgrade a new weapon set, and/or chase new gear this was the (17th or 18th) "Death of Neverwinter", without actually dropping by Preview to see how it plays?
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    cdnbison said:

    > @dread4moor said:




    1. Now, do players have to have the same build in mod16? Additionally, will they be 'encouraged' to only play a build that "Theorycrafters tested (with) every possible permutation in synergy with every variety of party compositions."



    Is it far easier for a new player to make a toon that is far more effective in mod16 (thus avoiding many of the possible pitfalls in the current system)?



    2. Gear upgrades happen every expansion. With AI, the complaint was that the gear wasn't good enough to make it worthwhile upgrading much. We got a couple mods off from the upgrade treadmill. Time to play catch up. Bonus - more grinding for gear = content staying somewhat relevant longer.



    3. I notice you're not disputing the large numbers of 'avoid these' powers and feats.

    EDIT: Oh, wait, you responded in-line, and tell me *I* am cherry picking? An entire paragon path, another entire tree from another paragon - that's cherry picking. But listing a couple of individual powers *isn't*? They were "foundational"? Dude(tte), I main a DC - this is the third or fourth kick at the can for our class mechanic. And, if anything, you pretty much confirm the "one build to rule them all" problem that led to the removal of so many powers / feats.



    Are you sure you've "tested for hundreds of hours"?



    Even if you do test lots (which I'm now seriously doubting) - great. Good on ya! Most people don't / haven't, and - had you fully read my comments - you would have picked up on the fact that that is who my comments were aimed at; the people who see only that they no longer have BiS gear, and will no longer have powers / a playstyle they've become used to. The "Erhmegawd, mah IBS!" crowd. The people who haven't noticed that there are companions with offensive stats that go in defensive slots. That *gasp* there may be more than one way to be effective beyond what said.



    If a players enjoyment of the game comes from a particular power, or piece of gear, I'm unsure why they'd be playing an MMO. I'm also feeling fairly confident that - while I'm sure their will be a 'most-optimal' build for each class - it's also looking like *not* having said build will not have the chance to be anywhere near as crippling as it is now for an average player (by, say, taking Whisperknife).



    Having played on Preview, I'm OK with where my DC currently sits. It takes some adjustments, sure, but I'm still having fun - which is kinda the point of gaming.

    I'll respond to your point of views.


    1) Just because Theorycrafters create builds does not mean other builds are not viable. If that was the case why would I have purchased so many loadouts for my DC and CW. Various non-theorycrafted build in mod 15 are viable at end game.

    My CW has 8 loadouts and I use 6 of them regularly. Of those only two of them are designed around the theorycrafting build and I rarely use those builds. My own builds perform quite well and I have FUN in the game, do to having options on how I play my CW.

    Mod 16 out of my 8 loadouts I see roughly 2 or 3 builds being viable. You don't need to do any theory crafting for the character build because we have so few feats and it makes it easier to build our character.

    As for theory crafting around companions, well that is a new thing I think the theory crafters will be spending time on. The thing is though not all classes will benefit equally do to how each class is setup for offense, defense and utility function from the companion. With that said, each class is not going to be remotely balanced because of that. Devs really didn't think through their programming choices when it came to the companions.

    2) Gear upgrades do happen regularly and I have no issues with the rings, shirt, pants, head, armor, arms and feet needing to be updated. Those are fairly common per a mod or every other mod. Most players don't have an issue with those update. What players are complaining about is that many of us upgraded our weapons last mod to the MC3 weapons hoping those would last 6 months, almost as long as the primal weapons. Well, that isn't the case as the MC weapons are only lasting us 1 mod.

    The other thing is that some players like myself also got the neck and waist MC3 do to change for our classes, but low and behold those are also being replaced. For some classes like the SW, DPS GF, GWF, HR, and TR this change is not as bad if the player got the Orcus set and never got another set. As the Orcus set has been BiS for quite a while for almost all classes.

    As someone who bought, with real world money, MC3 gear I feel cheated and am annoyed but I also understand those items would eventually be replaced.

    3) There are still powers and feats that you need to avoid. Less so on feats because there is literally barely any feats to pick from. As for powers, the devs have improved them but again there will be some that you simply don't take. As for mod 15; I had 8 loadouts for a reason, to try out abilities other didn't use. Some of them I did start using and I found them very helpful when I soloed certain content or with certain groups. Most players don't know some tricks that could have been used with some abilities in mod 15 because they followed builds by the Theorycrafters.

    As for testing hundreds of hours I don't need to and no one does. That is on the company to test their product, not their consumers. As a consumer I expect the product to be in fairly good shape when I get my hands on it. Right now mod 16, even after the latest patch, is still buggy with plenty of problems.

    For a two programmer team what they did is massive and well without a real testing team to ensure all bugs are reported so fixes can be implemented the changes to the game will take quite a while before they are resolved; in fact I have a feeling that the next big revamp/update will land before they even get to some of the issues we are seeing right now.

    This game is in mode of making things simple yet the devs created some complexity with our companions. Devs wanted to make things simple remove companions, mount powers, insignia, etc.. make this game as close to a D&D game. Wait if I wanted that I can go play D&D Online. And my gut tells me that some players here will leave and go play that game after this update.

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    ddo is ancient. If you do not think neverwinter holds up well in todays world.. you will not enjoy ddo that much. It also plays much more like other older style mmos (alot of powers.. but click /tab designs)

    I played it for a "bit" back when I played lotro, because I had some turbine points and just wanted to check it out. Turbine doesnt even own either game now (standing stones or something) and the server I played on in lotro, doesnt even exist any longer (bye old riddermark!) I will say this.. no game anywhere , I have ever played, had consistently nicer community then lotros back then..

    DDO frankly, wasn't as good as lotro was , I haven't played either game in years, no idea how any have aged, I quit Lotro at the time when they released the gap of rohan, because , well my raiding guild quit and my friends all quit (like 150+ people) over some unpopular decisions that were made for it, (namely making months of raiding gear obsolete and forcing everyone to do dailies for 2 months as its replacement ((yes.. solo dailies replaced all the t2 raiding gear... )) really bad move on their part.. most of the raiders I knew quit.. but it was ok, I wouldve staid if my friends did, but we were all sort of burnt out.. most of us had spent a better part of 4 years there. MOD 10 in neverwinter, made me think of gap of rohan, I lost dozens of people on my friends list due to mod 10 here and its insistence of overally grindy boring nonsense (still is overally grindy boring nonsense)

    I was a bit tired of raiding anyways.. tired of 3 hour sessions, and my life was moving past the point I could play for solid hours straight..

    While I enjoyed my time, I dont really look for that in a game any longer.


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