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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    @bishopgor at 20k iL I’m not having a problem with content unless I hit a bug or content that hasn’t been tuned (last Vanrakdoom Quest I’m looking at you).

    It’s slow going compared to my Warlock, and based on tests others are doing we could use a bump in damage to get us closer to DPS for solo play and group play.

    Oathstrike is our weakest damage at-will, a tiny magnitude 10 attack. So yes you’re not killing stuff with it, your supposed to use it in group content to help keep aggro.

    At 80 and 20k iL I’m running;
    All the bottom row feats (but they all suck so whatever).
    The passive that gives 5% damage when solo (should be 30%).
    The passive the increases Divinity recovery (should be changed and Divinity should should include it automatically in combat and instant-refill out of combat).
    Shielding Strike or Valiant Strike
    Radiant Strike
    Relentless Avenger
    Smite
    Burning Light (usually just tapped)
    Divine Judgement
    Shield of Faith

    Things that actually need to be addressed in the class:
    Feats: all of them
    Tab: the change @asterdahl proposed of a shield you hold hasn’t gone live, so not sure how it works.
    Passives: massive work needed here as well.

    Things that need to be addressed for all characters:
    DND stats need to be clear in what they effect and give meaningful effect (for damage).
    Boons need to all work and need some tuning.
    Various content bugs need to be addressed and various areas need tuning.

    With all that in mind you can clear all the solo content and some group content on Justicar spec.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    bishopgor said:

    Sorry but if the m16 stays in such state for me its an end even after this patch OP is USELES TOTALY USELES after few hour on previev i can say two things survivalibility for me is none (sorry but only one way to survive bigger group of mobs is staying with shield on and waiting for companion to deal with them). DMG are you HAMSTER kidding me? Critical Hit! Your Oath Strike deals 1613 (1453) Radiant Damage to Elite Guard. no it is imposibble i have done something wrong? NO! After some changes Your Oath Strike deals 710 Radiant Damage to Elite Guard. at the same moment my companion Your joji deals 39140 (34947) Physical Damage to Elite Guard with Hayase. i have almost 20k ilv i cant survive nothing if ther state of this HAMSTER stays at the begining of mod 16 im done with this game after four years of playing and have much fun of it.
    Previev drives me frustrated and mad about what you have done to my class. You have taken everything what was good and oustanding in OP gameplay amazing survivability, buffs, selfsustained DMG and you give us piece of smelly usles s....
    My OP is primary and i wont do any other class.
    Right now you are showing me where the doors are ok i understand it and probably i will leave this game for good...
    So i will have fun with my pala until m16 and then ill change game for good.
    Literaly you s....s



    From my experience of Paladins on live there are two major differences.

    1. Power / Crit based Paladins.
    2. HP / Defense based Paladins.

    Personally I belong to the second group and have focused on Hit points / Defense / Deflect, this completed with a (in my eyes) proper mount / companion setup... This means that I have low DPS output but a very hard nut to crack for mobs (and bosses) due high survival level... I might be old fashioned, but it's my opinion that a Tank is a Tank...

    This has caused that I have a good survival level on preview and honestly, I was thrilled to be able to die again in Battle (something I was missing on live, besides performing suicide or missing jumps due I am short legged).
    The first thing I did on preview, was testing out my survival level by just pulling clusters of mobs and let them hit me while I did nothing else than absorb the incoming damage... It took them a while.

    With this being said.

    It's a bit harsh to blame Dev's for something you (might) have created.
    Actually it's a great move from Dev's to bring back the core to where it belongs by bringing back the basic's for classes (and their roles)… Unfortunately the players with hybrid builds have to rethink their build and setup's in new Mod.

    I have always said that Dev's should stop with the endless downwards spiral of complains, fixes, adjustments upon adjustments, followed by even more complains and make a fresh start to get rid of this mess permanently... It's good for Dev team, its good for players.

    my two cents
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    > @fns2005 said:
    > > @lipbull said:
    > > theres st wrong in your Formula i think :) and why should we aggro the Mobs e.g. with templars wrath if we cant tank them at all. I myself am not able to tank/heal or do the right damage.
    >
    > This.

    Because if you set your defence, deflect and awareness up properly for defending you don’t die, and using your shield solves the problem further.

    It’s only a problem when you run into bugged content at the moment (looking at you Greater Ettercap in HEs).
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    @yeenoghu#2009 said:
    > Building divinity on Justicar seems slower than for the Oathkeeper. Wouldn't be better to give the Justicar either a way to build up divinity at a steady pace like the Oathkeeper as well?
    >
    > it pains a bit the fact Paladin's encounters have a big cooldown and no way to reduce it like before.
    >
    > About the auras, any way/hope to get something aura of wisdom back or make Paladin auras not so about using your dailies to get an actual benefit? I mean, an aura should theorically be something always active and not requiring a condition to take place. I did notice the compusure aura for the Justicar but still feels forced to have to use one aura just for it rather than buff/protect my allies)

    This. Especially since there's no recovery, no Aura if Wisdom, no cooldown reduction feats, it makes these auras based on daily use far less useful...
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Here, this is me in the first mob of Mad Mage. Pretty much just standing around and getting hit.

    I do have to watch the stamina (blue bar) to make sure I can defend, and of course watch the divinity (yellow bar) to make sure I can Templar's as an aggro pull.

    Yes I use some stones, but seriously there is 1 pet hitting things and me occasionally popping a little damage, put a full party of DPS and heals in there and they die fast enough that the issue isn't surviving, its having enough Divinity when you get to the next mob to use Templar's effectively.

    The video also shows a "bug" with stats when you change map, where even if you stats should be the same, you loose the Bonding Stone buff and have to wait for it to come back, which can take a while.



    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • violencebf22violencebf22 Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    Here, this is me in the first mob of Mad Mage. Pretty much just standing around and getting hit.

    I do have to watch the stamina (blue bar) to make sure I can defend, and of course watch the divinity (yellow bar) to make sure I can Templar's as an aggro pull.

    Yes I use some stones, but seriously there is 1 pet hitting things and me occasionally popping a little damage, put a full party of DPS and heals in there and they die fast enough that the issue isn't surviving, its having enough Divinity when you get to the next mob to use Templar's effectively.

    The video also shows a "bug" with stats when you change map, where even if you stats should be the same, you loose the Bonding Stone buff and have to wait for it to come back, which can take a while.



    Can one do the same test only with DD? I would like to see how the agr paladin keeps on itself when these buffs fall?And generally see how a paladin causes an agr with stronger DD. Can you hold at the difference of 20,000 and 23,000 item level does it interfere with the task tank?

  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Thanks for movie, but it looks like a desperate combat for survival and not for winning :( Enemy one hit takes you over half a HP [2:22]. Fortunately, you had healing potions. Seriously, tanking in module 16 going to look like this?
  • feuerwolf#3519 feuerwolf Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    Please excuse my bad english, it is not my mother tongue.

    Whine incomming:
    I am 100% solo player, I avoid dungeons and the like. My main is a paladin, IL 11.000 on live server. My favourite zone is barovia, i find it fun to fight bhe and run around grinding. I can do CoW and BG on my own too.
    On the preview server my IL is automatically raised to approx. 12.000 and suddenly I have big problems with all the mobs on the map. It feels like my armor is made of paper, my sword is pure rubber. All I can do is standing around with my shield and wait to be hit... I realy realy realy hope, there will be some way to play my paladin without having an IL of 20.000 and above.

    Beside that it is strange that the paladin plays on the first levels like a god and then suddenly he can do nothing but standing and waiting to be hit.
    Are there some tests in the open world too or only in dungeons and groupplay?
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    anoreksja said:

    Thanks for movie, but it looks like a desperate combat for survival and not for winning :( Enemy one hit takes you over half a HP [2:22]. Fortunately, you had healing potions. Seriously, tanking in module 16 going to look like this?

    skill, block, block, block, skill, block, block, skill . . . repeat the pattern. use only 2 buttons. after you get to pause while divinity regenerates.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:

    anoreksja said:

    Thanks for movie, but it looks like a desperate combat for survival and not for winning :( Enemy one hit takes you over half a HP [2:22]. Fortunately, you had healing potions. Seriously, tanking in module 16 going to look like this?

    skill, block, block, block, skill, block, block, skill . . . repeat the pattern. use only 2 buttons. after you get to pause while divinity regenerates.
    the pinnacle of gaming right there.
    the dream we all gamers were waiting for, came true! all praise new paladin.
    Paladin is dead, long live THE paladin!
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    leonidrex said:

    ragnarz2 said:

    anoreksja said:

    Thanks for movie, but it looks like a desperate combat for survival and not for winning :( Enemy one hit takes you over half a HP [2:22]. Fortunately, you had healing potions. Seriously, tanking in module 16 going to look like this?

    skill, block, block, block, skill, block, block, skill . . . repeat the pattern. use only 2 buttons. after you get to pause while divinity regenerates.
    the pinnacle of gaming right there.
    the dream we all gamers were waiting for, came true! all praise new paladin.
    Paladin is dead, long live THE paladin!

  • gormenghast1gormenghast1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    At least the Paladin can say to top any other class in at least a single category: the lenght of his feedback thread B)

    Summarizing the general opinion about the changes shown in these 17 pages of comments, there are mainly a few arguments that elicit the most responses from the testing playerbase.

    - Loss of "freedom" in Paladin's Gameplay. Since mod 6 to mod 15, OP has been able to get aggro and absorb damage taken through use of temporay HPs and shields, giving him the liberty to use controlling and damaging encounters to focus on topping the threat chart so to keep a stable hold of mob and bosses aggro. Mod 16 changed that through limitation of active gameplay, as opposed to the passive time spent behind the shield.

    - Increased mortality: temp HP and shields of the old OP granted a high resistance to continuous damage. This didn't grant immortality, for the heavy hits could still bybass all those layers when debuffs where not high enough but it gave to the class an unique way to manage its role. Mod 16 grants a breakable shield with the same amount of real HP of the Paladin, which is neither unique to tank classes, nor sufficient to cope with continuous, unmitigated hits from the hard hitting bosses in the game.

    - Loss of uniqueness: OP's gameplay was in many ways different from the other tank class till mod 15. His shield granted a party buff to damage resistance/increased incoming healing and low but sustained healing, making it different from the GF's self mitigating shield and usable in combination with his at-wills. Temporary HP and shields were the OP's bread and butter, coupled with powersharing and AoC's damage buff to party that made the class wanted and appreciated in party content. Mod 16 gifted the Paladin with a lesser version of GF shield (Paladins seems too slow to be able to use two hands at the same time, it seems), no party contribuition besides being there and hopefully covering the training dummy position in incoming damage. No more control, no more cooldown lowering through Aura of Wisdom, no more speed buffs through justice feats all add to the "meh" feel granted by the newest version of this class.

    - Shield: not a single positive feedback for the new version in the whole thread. The main reasons relate to the excessive need for its use, both to withstand damage and to get back some divinity; the lack of omnidirectionality and party usefulness granted by the old OP's Sanctuary, which made for OP's inability to attack as opposed to GF; the feel to have a lesser version of the Fighter's shield, being the same 270° HP layer but without the ability to do anything else while using it. There are many improvements that could grant uniqueness to the Paladin's shield, like a Shield Bash that activates automatically after at least 3 seconds of continuous blocking with an added AoE frontal damage and short stun, an aura centered on the Paladin granting a small party buff like the old sanctuary and more. Paladins have the biggest shields in game (tower shields in 5th edition P&P D&D), it would be only reasonable they could make some use of them.

    - Divine Pallisade: same as the new shield, hardly any positive comment on its effectiveness, its usability, its divinity cost and what flavour does it grant to the class when compared to other signature class mechanics in game. Even with a toggle usage as opposite to a 10s, 600 divinity cost una tantum, it won't certanly start giving the Paladin an unique feel nor it will increase its low to none utility in combat situations due to positioning, effect shape and minimal contribuition to damage mitigation. Signature Pen Paper mechanics like Protection from Evil or Avenging angel have been proposed; there are many other options as Holy Nimbus, Undying Sentinel, Elder Champion to evaluate, while Divine Pallisade is not even 5th edition Player's Handbook material.

    - Too low DPS: as opposed to GFs which, with peculiar builds, could top the paingiver charts till mod 15, OPs have never been cause of "tanks do too much damage" issues to begin with. Mod 16 has a list of various reasons for Paladin's low damage which could be ok taken separately, but summed up make for a real problem in doing enough DPS to complete solo content in an acceptable speed when compared to DPS and healing classes and to generate enough threat to keep a steady aggro in party content. This is the list: natural gameplay mechanics for a tank class, where time has to be split between attacking and coping with incoming damage; Mediocre power magnitude; 30% "class mechanic" flat debuff to all damage; 1 single offensive companion slot. No OP player wants to top paingiver charts, but all these expedients to lower the Paladin's damage feel definitely too many when summed up.

    - New Divinity mechanics: mixed feelings, with the most concerns regarding an exceedingly slow in-combat regeneration for justicars as opposed to Oathkeepers and Devouts. Also the limit to regain divinity only through blocking hits needs to be addressed.

    I think that most of the OP community is eager to partecipate in finding a solution to all the entries in this list which, if reasonably addressed, would make of the Paladin a fun and rewarding class to play. As for now, it's known that the meta to do party content has gone back to 5 DPS with healing companions at it was with the old CN version 1.0 during mod 1-6; hopefully mod 16 won't see another broken party content era as that one and keep tanks and healers relevant as they should be.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    anoreksja said:

    Thanks for movie, but it looks like a desperate combat for survival and not for winning :( Enemy one hit takes you over half a HP [2:22]. Fortunately, you had healing potions. Seriously, tanking in module 16 going to look like this?

    I wasn't trying to "win", I was deliberately standing there to be hit.

    And yes a hit took over half my HP, 2 things happened 1) I turned my back and 2) my stamina ran out.
    Its like I couldn't just stand in one spot and pretend the enemies had feather dusters vs my plate armor. I actually had to do something. Which actually makes the game interesting.
    ragnarz2 said:


    skill, block, block, block, skill, block, block, skill . . . repeat the pattern. use only 2 buttons. after you get to pause while divinity regenerates.

    Except that isn't what happens...

    Further the point wasn't to kill them as fast as possible, it was to stand around, hold aggro and let the pet kill them.


    Can one do the same test only with DD? I would like to see how the agr paladin keeps on itself when these buffs fall?And generally see how a paladin causes an agr with stronger DD. Can you hold at the difference of 20,000 and 23,000 item level does it interfere with the task tank?

    I would if I could, but it seems no one that's around in my play window wants to run anything that we need to test aggro.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    At the end of tonight's messing around I swapped my Terror for a Bronzewood (13) and took it for a spin in eToS. That change made a huge difference to the play experience, making it much more positive. (I also swapped armor enchants, but now I need to run ATC to see if the new one actually does anything. *sigh*)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    > @feuerwolf#3519 said:
    > Please excuse my bad english, it is not my mother tongue.
    >
    > Whine incomming:
    > I am 100% solo player, I avoid dungeons and the like. My main is a paladin, IL 11.000 on live server. My favourite zone is barovia, i find it fun to fight bhe and run around grinding. I can do CoW and BG on my own too.
    > On the preview server my IL is automatically raised to approx. 12.000 and suddenly I have big problems with all the mobs on the map. It feels like my armor is made of paper, my sword is pure rubber. All I can do is standing around with my shield and wait to be hit... I realy realy realy hope, there will be some way to play my paladin without having an IL of 20.000 and above.
    >
    > Beside that it is strange that the paladin plays on the first levels like a god and then suddenly he can do nothing but standing and waiting to be hit.
    > Are there some tests in the open world too or only in dungeons and groupplay?

    I’ve played a few levels of a character whose gear got a major upgrade from Neverwinter and had no trouble in the new zones. Got its first Boon point ever from the Undermointain progression.

    I suggest moving from Barovia to Undermountain and working on it to get to 80. Partly because it’s possible Barovia is affected by the issues with scaling that plague the game at the moment.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    I have over 23k IL in my Paladin and I had a problem with completing new preview campaign (I tried tank and healer). I have been killed many times playing solo.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:

    I'm putting this here because it impacts the Paladin, or at least one Paragon path, but it is not specifically about the Paladin class itself.


    I noticed yesterday that, when comparing the Vistani gear (which my Paladin had equipped) and the Undermountain gear (which my Paladin was gifted from Neverember), that there was an issue with the maces.

    The Vistani Mace gives a 10% bonus to Oath Strike damage.
    The Undermountain Mace gives a 10% bonus to Shielding Strike damage.

    The Vistani Mace on live is fine. Any Paladin that so desires can pick Oath Strike as an at-will power, but when this goes live that changes.

    Oath Strike and Shielding Strike both become Justicar powers and the Oathkeeper (insert obligatory "please change this Paragon Path name" here) is left out.
    Changing the Undermountain Mace to give a bonus to an Oathkeeper at-will, or even a generic Paladin at-will, would be nice.

    Some people may not care. Some people may start out with better and not care to use the weapon at all. But some people will be starting fresh and using this Undermountain (or Vistani) gear may be their best option in the short-term and, if refined, the weapon and shield may be their best choice for a long time to come.

    Thanks.

    open character page
    right click mace
    choose manage artifact powers
    I must have missed that memo. Or forgot it. Either way, thanks.

    Still, I go there and they want me to pay a currency I do not have (Black Ice, I think) to change anything.

    So it would still be nice if the Undermountain Mace was defaulted to a common at-will.
  • bishopgorbishopgor Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @finmakin

    Even for def/hp based OP fighting only for survival fot tank class with shield on isnt a good idea for TANK you literally cant hold aggro on yourself so you will become USLESS in parties and for dungeons and without attack behind shield you are way before GF tank so its the END for OP as class being used at dungeons.
    Ive tried healing low as HAMSTER cure wounds and anothe missmatch.

    Literally Paladin in D&D system is a buffer with tank/healing ability so that whats happening right now in Neverwinter (based on D&D system) is just a something wrong.
    Testing OP and GF in TONG on def hp build.
    OP on previev Tong NOT DONE ! why? i cant hold agrro on myself fighting for survival hold the shield hold the shield templars wrath annnd gone killed by boss.

    GF tong done several deaths but can hold the aggro and give any support for team. And one thing GF CAN ATTACK behind shield!

    Op is nerfed way to much right now really low divinity reacharge out of battle wery low DMG and i can sustain my opinion OP in such state is UNPLAYABLE! You can do capagin solo but it takes so much time!

    @finmakin once more really you are playing only tank without powershare and other buffs right now, woooow you are so helpfull on dungeons!



  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    alrii said:



    my husband and i use the paladin as our main class because

    a) i can be carefree and play as a heal focused tank and screw up a lot as i am prone to.

    i do this because i'm not a big gamer so my timings are always off... plus i love hopping around in combat :3

    The problem is that a lot of people can do this because the Paladin on live is nigh-unkillable.

    I am not "elite". Far from it.
    I have invested in other characters that I have either deleted or generally abandoned and so I have been very cautious about sinking money into a character that I may not play much in the long haul, and that has been my Paladin (though I must say that I am feeling pretty good about the long-term prognosis for the character, so I may start investing in them after I see the final results of Mod16, but things are looking good now).

    Bad item level. Basic companions. Basic mounts. Virtually no enchantments or runestones slotted.

    Nearly indestructible in any level-appropriate solo content.

    Paladins were easy mode. *Are* easy mode.

    The reasons for this mod have been laid out.
    My Paladin is changing, too.

    But somehow I have found a path forward.
    Somehow I have managed to not die every time a hostile looks at me.
    Somehow I have managed to take some less than BIS companions and defeat enemies in a timely fashion.
    anoreksja said:

    I have over 23k IL in my Paladin and I had a problem with completing new preview campaign (I tried tank and healer). I have been killed many times playing solo.


    My IL10K and change Oathkeeper has been working through Undermountain solo. There have been some spots where things have not been as smooth as I would have liked, but that's what all of these other feedback threads are for.

    The Paladin himself has been okay. I haven't died a lot, and when I have there have been at least some cases where I knew what I did wrong.

    I started out with a Justicar and did not care for it, not in its current state anyway, so I switched to Oathkeeper and it's made a world of difference to me.

    I hate the Paragon name, I think it needs to be changed, but as it stands right now I will take the healer path and continue enjoying life (mostly) solo.

    Crappy item level and all.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User

    ragnarz2 said:


    open character page
    right click mace
    choose manage artifact powers

    I must have missed that memo. Or forgot it. Either way, thanks.

    Still, I go there and they want me to pay a currency I do not have (Black Ice, I think) to change anything.

    So it would still be nice if the Undermountain Mace was defaulted to a common at-will.
    Which power is unlocked at the start is random per-item. You unlock the others with Cubes Of Augmentation, AKA Cubes Of Unlocking New Artifact Powers, which cost about 5K AD in the AD store and drop like candy from lockboxes so you can get them on the AH, too. Once you've unlocked a power, you can swap back to it for a tiny price.

    Every artifact weapon since Mod 6 has worked this way.
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    bishopgor said:

    @finmakin

    Even for def/hp based OP fighting only for survival fot tank class with shield on isnt a good idea for TANK you literally cant hold aggro on yourself so you will become USLESS in parties and for dungeons and without attack behind shield you are way before GF tank so its the END for OP as class being used at dungeons.
    Ive tried healing low as HAMSTER cure wounds and anothe missmatch.

    Literally Paladin in D&D system is a buffer with tank/healing ability so that whats happening right now in Neverwinter (based on D&D system) is just a something wrong.
    Testing OP and GF in TONG on def hp build.
    OP on previev Tong NOT DONE ! why? i cant hold agrro on myself fighting for survival hold the shield hold the shield templars wrath annnd gone killed by boss.

    GF tong done several deaths but can hold the aggro and give any support for team. And one thing GF CAN ATTACK behind shield!

    Op is nerfed way to much right now really low divinity reacharge out of battle wery low DMG and i can sustain my opinion OP in such state is UNPLAYABLE! You can do capagin solo but it takes so much time!

    @finmakin once more really you are playing only tank without powershare and other buffs right now, woooow you are so helpfull on dungeons!



    I agree with you. Obviously, we invest big money in our Paladin class, not why get something in mod 16 that does not even look like 10% of Paladin :( This strongly discourages further play..
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    alrii said:



    my husband and i use the paladin as our main class because

    a) i can be carefree and play as a heal focused tank and screw up a lot as i am prone to.

    i do this because i'm not a big gamer so my timings are always off... plus i love hopping around in combat :3

    The problem is that a lot of people can do this because the Paladin on live is nigh-unkillable.

    I am not "elite". Far from it.
    I have invested in other characters that I have either deleted or generally abandoned and so I have been very cautious about sinking money into a character that I may not play much in the long haul, and that has been my Paladin (though I must say that I am feeling pretty good about the long-term prognosis for the character, so I may start investing in them after I see the final results of Mod16, but things are looking good now).

    Bad item level. Basic companions. Basic mounts. Virtually no enchantments or runestones slotted.

    Nearly indestructible in any level-appropriate solo content.

    Paladins were easy mode. *Are* easy mode.

    The reasons for this mod have been laid out.
    My Paladin is changing, too.

    But somehow I have found a path forward.
    Somehow I have managed to not die every time a hostile looks at me.
    Somehow I have managed to take some less than BIS companions and defeat enemies in a timely fashion.
    anoreksja said:

    I have over 23k IL in my Paladin and I had a problem with completing new preview campaign (I tried tank and healer). I have been killed many times playing solo.


    My IL10K and change Oathkeeper has been working through Undermountain solo. There have been some spots where things have not been as smooth as I would have liked, but that's what all of these other feedback threads are for.

    The Paladin himself has been okay. I haven't died a lot, and when I have there have been at least some cases where I knew what I did wrong.

    I started out with a Justicar and did not care for it, not in its current state anyway, so I switched to Oathkeeper and it's made a world of difference to me.

    I hate the Paragon name, I think it needs to be changed, but as it stands right now I will take the healer path and continue enjoying life (mostly) solo.

    Crappy item level and all.
    Please be specific. If your feedback is for Oathkeeper /healer path/ state so to make sure evertyone knows. Most if not all of the frustration here is tied directly to Justicar. Oath keeper doesnt have a 30% dmf debuff built in and can block just the same as the tank. Oathkeeper is better than Justicar in every way, the only thing he doesnt have is Divinity recovery via blocking

    PS: I also havent died yet as a Justicar but thats because a)I play a pretty maxxed out Paladin and b) because I actually know how to play. This doesnt mean Im happy with Justicar. far from it. Blademaster and Sentinel are good examples of classes done well in m16. Justicar is not!
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • ananxiousnoob#0947 ananxiousnoob Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @mithrosnomore As the OP was not your main I assume that you preferred the play style offered by another class. Indeed you state that you have not sunk money into your OP all of whose ‘stuff’ is pretty basic. It would therefore seem that the change from the existing play style of the OP to that offered by mod 16 may not be of much importance to you and indeed you may prefer it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, those of us who chose the OP, pre mod 16, as our main have probably sunk inordinate amounts of time, effort and real life money into a class that we loved only to see it completely changed. We chose that class precisely because of the way that it played for our own reasons in exactly the same way that I assume that you picked the main class that you play for your own reasons. It is wrong to say that the OP is easy mode. We rarely die but it also takes us a while to kill things, something that may cause impatience in other players. There are currently good, bad and indifferent OP’s just as there are good, bad and indifferent DPS classes. Currently a good OP is an asset to any group in many way and has fun to play. I do not want to find a way forward with this class in mod 16 as I see it at present ( I know everything is open to change but I can’t see the basic shield, shield, hit technique changing). It has become a GF and if I had wanted to be GF I would have invested in that class. I am glad that you are enjoying the mod 16 OP and I wish those who are happy with the new OP fun playing in future. For me, as it stands, the uniqueness of the OP has been destroyed and unless the Devs pull something out of their hat I will play until my VIP runs out and then call it a day.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    emilemo said:

    alrii said:



    my husband and i use the paladin as our main class because

    a) i can be carefree and play as a heal focused tank and screw up a lot as i am prone to.

    i do this because i'm not a big gamer so my timings are always off... plus i love hopping around in combat :3

    The problem is that a lot of people can do this because the Paladin on live is nigh-unkillable.

    I am not "elite". Far from it.
    I have invested in other characters that I have either deleted or generally abandoned and so I have been very cautious about sinking money into a character that I may not play much in the long haul, and that has been my Paladin (though I must say that I am feeling pretty good about the long-term prognosis for the character, so I may start investing in them after I see the final results of Mod16, but things are looking good now).

    Bad item level. Basic companions. Basic mounts. Virtually no enchantments or runestones slotted.

    Nearly indestructible in any level-appropriate solo content.

    Paladins were easy mode. *Are* easy mode.

    The reasons for this mod have been laid out.
    My Paladin is changing, too.

    But somehow I have found a path forward.
    Somehow I have managed to not die every time a hostile looks at me.
    Somehow I have managed to take some less than BIS companions and defeat enemies in a timely fashion.
    anoreksja said:

    I have over 23k IL in my Paladin and I had a problem with completing new preview campaign (I tried tank and healer). I have been killed many times playing solo.


    My IL10K and change Oathkeeper has been working through Undermountain solo. There have been some spots where things have not been as smooth as I would have liked, but that's what all of these other feedback threads are for.

    The Paladin himself has been okay. I haven't died a lot, and when I have there have been at least some cases where I knew what I did wrong.

    I started out with a Justicar and did not care for it, not in its current state anyway, so I switched to Oathkeeper and it's made a world of difference to me.

    I hate the Paragon name, I think it needs to be changed, but as it stands right now I will take the healer path and continue enjoying life (mostly) solo.

    Crappy item level and all.
    Please be specific. If your feedback is for Oathkeeper /healer path/ state so to make sure evertyone knows. Most if not all of the frustration here is tied directly to Justicar. Oath keeper doesnt have a 30% dmf debuff built in and can block just the same as the tank. Oathkeeper is better than Justicar in every way, the only thing he doesnt have is Divinity recovery via blocking

    PS: I also havent died yet as a Justicar but thats because a)I play a pretty maxxed out Paladin and b) because I actually know how to play. This doesnt mean Im happy with Justicar. far from it. Blademaster and Sentinel are good examples of classes done well in m16. Justicar is not!
    Don't know how much clearer I can get.

    I said Oathkeeper in my response, and the second part was in response to someone that said that they had tried both paths.

    I am not going to mention Oathkeeper up front, half a dozen times throughout my response, and then again at the end to make sure that everyone can understand that.

    Mentioning it as I did seems more than sufficient for anyone that wants to actually read the post.

    @mithrosnomore As the OP was not your main I assume that you preferred the play style offered by another class. Indeed you state that you have not sunk money into your OP all of whose ‘stuff’ is pretty basic. It would therefore seem that the change from the existing play style of the OP to that offered by mod 16 may not be of much importance to you and indeed you may prefer it.... It is wrong to say that the OP is easy mode. We rarely die but it also takes us a while to kill things, something that may cause impatience in other players.

    You misunderstand.

    Those classes that I did play I said I had deleted or abandoned. The OP is my main now. Other than a little playing to test other classes, anyway.

    I started with a Rogue and Cleric, but they were just Ranger and Paladin stand-ins because those classes were not in the game.
    Then Ranger was my main and I thought that I was okay with that, but then something occurred and I deleted my first Ranger. Then I made a Paladin and re-rolled my Ranger and I could never get the Ranger to where I thought I had the first one for whatever reason, and Paladin just took over. But that is where having invested what I did into a Cleric, Rogue, Ranger, and a "first attempt" Paladin, only to see them all fall to the wayside, I have been extremely cautious about investing in my current Paladin. My current main.

    That same, IL <10K on live Paladin that I have been running through Undermountain on test.
    Every other character exists to gather/process crafting materials, to collect invocation tokens, and to otherwise serve as a bank.

    And sorry, but a lack of patience on the player's part does not make a thing "difficult".

    If "I am indestructible but the fight might take me a whole minute to complete" is what you consider "difficulty" then there is nothing anyone can tell you.
    Post edited by mithrosnomore on
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    bishopgor said:

    @finmakin


    @finmakin once more really you are playing only tank without powershare and other buffs right now, woooow you are so helpfull on dungeons!


    Do you really think I am not sharing Power and other buffs??..
    You should drink more beers to believe your own story.

    Bottom line is that these so called Power based Paladins (with like 200k HP) will have a difficult time due lack of survivability (except when a Healer heals their butts).
    And yes.. I have lower Power to share, but at least I am a Life to do so... a death Paladin has nothing to share

    As for your remark,
    I simply reply with " Nice try ;p.. "
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User

    @mithrosnomore As the OP was not your main I assume that you preferred the play style offered by another class. Indeed you state that you have not sunk money into your OP all of whose ‘stuff’ is pretty basic. It would therefore seem that the change from the existing play style of the OP to that offered by mod 16 may not be of much importance to you and indeed you may prefer it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, those of us who chose the OP, pre mod 16, as our main have probably sunk inordinate amounts of time, effort and real life money into a class that we loved only to see it completely changed. We chose that class precisely because of the way that it played for our own reasons in exactly the same way that I assume that you picked the main class that you play for your own reasons. It is wrong to say that the OP is easy mode. We rarely die but it also takes us a while to kill things, something that may cause impatience in other players. There are currently good, bad and indifferent OP’s just as there are good, bad and indifferent DPS classes. Currently a good OP is an asset to any group in many way and has fun to play. I do not want to find a way forward with this class in mod 16 as I see it at present ( I know everything is open to change but I can’t see the basic shield, shield, hit technique changing). It has become a GF and if I had wanted to be GF I would have invested in that class. I am glad that you are enjoying the mod 16 OP and I wish those who are happy with the new OP fun playing in future. For me, as it stands, the uniqueness of the OP has been destroyed and unless the Devs pull something out of their hat I will play until my VIP runs out and then call it a day.

    It's exactly as you write. I have been playing OP class from beginning and put in a lot of effort, time and much more real money to get 19k+ IL in module 15, so the game has become really enjoyable. Unfortunately, I can not accept the Paladin class that Developers offer us in the preview server. I do not feel this class at all in the preview both tank and healer path :( I do not want such a class in module 16. I would like to have my beloved OP which I play to module 15 <3
  • yeenoghu#2009 yeenoghu Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Just to make sure: Are you guys 100% commited to remove Sanctuary as the Paladin's block? I mean, I don't even mind if as a Justicar you can only 'BLOCK' from the front, but the buff Sanctuary gave as Protection?Healadin was the main reason good OP's did used it a lot.

    As a Paladin main, please keep Sanctuary and if not, at least have the decency of not giving the Paladin a half useless fighter block. If Paladin is to block like 'GF did', then make it consistent.



    Edit: On an additional note, I would not mind a nerfed Templar's wrath that would grant only like the Paladin's Hit Points in Temporary or double it so that we could keep using Divine Protector. And make it last longer. Whoever had the brilliant of nerfing a 100% Justicar worthy daily should get a promotion for the fact the idea passed to. Congrats, Shields of Faith will now become the number 1 daily for Paladins when the daily that actual does something like protecting the party is now based on nearest ally. At least make it reach like two people instead of one? If you wanted to nerf Divine Protector you could just reduce the duration and leave it for a player to decide which daily to use.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I played Justicar through new campain including Master with 1 rune activated solo to 2 and3 actitvated duoing with another Justicar both 22k in master and myself in old gear 17k from live from 70-80 including everything up to unlocking last boon masters.

    For background info I played the game since beta and I played OP since it came out I also have a 17.5k Gf and a 17k Hr on live.

    I have read the thread and I was expecting myself to come here and write how aweful the new OP was but this is what am going to write.

    I think @ asterdahl has done something with great potential with the changes comming to this game.

    Let us consider that no class will go through this unchanged and that the game will go back to basic tank dps heal set up where the difference between the classes will shrink.

    We have 3 pure dps that will have 2 dps path (hr wiz and tr), 2 classes with one heal path 1 dps path, 2 classes with a tank path and a dps path and then we have the paladin standing alone with 1 tank path and one heal path.

    That makes paladin unique and more difficult to compare then any other class in the game.

    I will address the Justicar(tank path in this post I will get back to healing later).

    Running through the new campain with Hr, Gf(both Vanguard and Dreadnought) and Justicar there is no doubt Justicar was by far the best experience.

    I tested every single combination there was in feat set up and combination of encounters and used Yojimbo as companion.



    Feats need to be addressed most are more or less if not useless so pointless with the sole exception of feated absolution I will come to that later.
    Feats need to be changed, my own suggestion is that they become utility based HP vs Damage, Defence vs Crit or at least add to excisting encounters that changes them to the better utilitywise.

    Examaple feat ;Templars wrath now gain 20% increased damage and taunt all enimies effected etc.

    Dalies must be equally useful like Divine Justice and Radiant charge( I am in love with that Radiant charge I have to admit it is just amazingly good animation). As it is now the protective ones and the Hero one is just falling short as they add so little that you can as well skip them. By the way Radiant charge NEED the option to block and let you stay in place or it will be to many circomstances where it is impractical to use it.

    Now the bread and butter for Justicar is Smite(which is griffons copy pasted right of the board) it gives Justicar the much needed burst damage it always missed. This burst damage is also the difficult one to balance if it can be used to much the damage will become to high if to seldom the downtime to high.

    This lead to devinity the very essence of the Justicars ability to perform. As it is now the devinity gain is much to slow especially
    between combat, it only slow down the game pace in a bad way and even in combat it is a bit to slow forcing the Justicar to become inactive(lets face it at will are in current state almost a non factor), at least increase it x4 between combat.

    Lets go into soloing.

    I found 2 different approach both useful in its own way.

    1 Smite(no brainer), binding oath/burning light/sacret weapon or 2 Smite, absolution, sacret weapon/binding oath/burning light.

    The first one gives a bit more damage using binding/secret weapon and more control using burning light but either one allows you to block while dealing damage(binding oath go in blocking I was supriced how much damage you deal with binding/sacret weapon while tanking). The advantage of using burning light comes when you face a bit harder hitting mobs like the vampire assassins where you get time to take out 1-3 with smite or back of and fire of RADIANT CHARGE TA DA..

    Approach nr 2 has the greatest potential as I see it.

    Going back to divinity that is the Achilles' heel feated absolution is making it recover twice as fast but forces you to block to do so.
    This is where the potential of the Justicar comes in.

    Now absolution is not Dr it is 20% less damage making it one of the truly useful damage prevention abilities, feating it also gives divinity back when blocking combine that with binding oath that gives damage back when attacked and a fantastic combination comes to live.

    IF the devs would incooperate this consept on a larger scale combining that when you take damage the mobs takes damage and that in turn inceases the threat on that damage you can deal damage while blocking and at the same time regenerate aggro.

    That would allow the Justicare to deal damage while blocking same as Dreadnoght and create the feeling of using divine energy to hurt your enemies while you block to gather strenght enought to attack(absolution part).

    Class feats need to be changed to support this in some of the class feats(increase reflecive damage etc) but the basic for a truly fun and good tank has been laid.

    Tab need to go it is more or less pointless, if changed to something like the old daily protecting the hole party for a short period (15-20% less damage taken for x seconds) the suggestions been many but the way it works is not useful.

    If you increase the damage from oath/sacret weapon, makes absolutions divinity increase at least twice as fast, makes both sacret weapons and binding oaths damage regerate a high enough amount of taunt and increase at will damage with quite a margin(goes for all classes) my guess is that Paladin tank will be to say the least rewarding to play.

    When it comes to group play using some of the aoe enconters with built in aggro(they also need something added to them as the damage from them are pittyful and my suggestion here is to give them even more radiant damage on attackers with higher taunt then binding, and sacret weapon making them them an even greater part of the consept doing damage that builds threat while blocking and/or adding damage absorbing ablitilies to them.

    Now removing at least some of the base damage debuff or giving tanks -30% damage taken (after all of they do less damage for being tanks they should at the very least be able to take more damge) with the above mention changes I see a tank worthy of playing.

    Best

    Post edited by marnival on
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