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Official M16: Ranger

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  • jhpnwjhpnw Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 611 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    it started out that way for Barbarian but view all the support and interaction for Barbarian forum, its working well ! Now we need same help for Hr keep at it all. we cant let if happen to us this time, IF they think no one plays HR then we are lost


  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    jhpnw said:

    it started out that way for Barbarian but view all the support and interaction for Barbarian forum, its working well ! Now we need same help for Hr keep at it all. we cant let if happen to us this time, IF they think no one plays HR then we are lost


    Looks like the developer overdo the barb/gwf again. It will never end if they keep doing this to every class and in the end, its power creep all over again. What's the point of doing this class overhaul anyway. In my opinion, the dev need to get in control of this arm race. They cant just listen to player feed back alone. They need to do some testing of their own.
    They have been and are. But there are only a few of them. They cannot test to the extent that the community at large can. That's why ALL well done games have a robust and active alpha and beta test for content. Also, the more people that make ideas and preferences known, the better the devs can tune classes to be balanced and enjoyable. Our feedback should be important because it can make things better and easier. It's easy to discouraged by the differences in communication and feedback loop between the different devs, but we shouldn't and can't just give up and not care.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Argh, I wish my crappy old PC had memory space left for preview.

    Look at those figures again, but now imagine an equally pimped out barbie...

    "Hey GWFs, mod16, so I've got some good news and some bad news..."
    "Oh, err, right, so... what's the good news..?"
    "Well, don't worry, you're all gonna be top dps again."
    "Cool beanz!!! But wait, so what's the bad news..?"
    "We nerfed the name of your class."
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Member Posts: 265 Arc User
    If you aren't going to fix the class how about at least giving a Class reroll. I know mod 15 killed my interest in putting money into the game. At this point trying to build up an HR again so it can be completely MEH is just not desirable and putting the effort into building up the I level of a new character in a game that is likely in it's death throes is just not really interesting.
  • quelmiran#2911 quelmiran Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Since the purpose of support classes are not existent any more we will be judge by the final outcome. So as a dps class we will be judged by the dps we can provide. If we cannot compete with the other dps classes there is no point of even exist. In this thread there are many valid points on how some of our powers are under powered, feats on the wrong paragon path, minor or major things that will improve our QoL like the small dodge or the extremely long animations of powers, various types of roots when there is no reason etc. We know that the majority of players over the years turned to GWF because the dps was superior compared to every other dps classes. But this is a new starting point. Please reconsider the argument that we "overbalanced" because we are not.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I am just wondering how feasible a "pure archery" Ranger is. I enjoy archery as such, leveled one HR up to 70, just focusing on archery, but as you all know, that has not been considered usable in groups - partly because a ranger that is standing away from the group will not benefit from the massive buffs in M15.

    Now, that the massive buffs are going away, has the archery Ranger become viable?
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    kangkeok said:

    jhpnw said:

    it started out that way for Barbarian but view all the support and interaction for Barbarian forum, its working well ! Now we need same help for Hr keep at it all. we cant let if happen to us this time, IF they think no one plays HR then we are lost


    Looks like the developer overdo the barb/gwf again. It will never end if they keep doing this to every class and in the end, its power creep all over again. What's the point of doing this class overhaul anyway. In my opinion, the dev need to get in control of this arm race. They cant just listen to player feed back alone. They need to do some testing of their own.
    They have been and are. But there are only a few of them. They cannot test to the extent that the community at large can. That's why ALL well done games have a robust and active alpha and beta test for content. Also, the more people that make ideas and preferences known, the better the devs can tune classes to be balanced and enjoyable. Our feedback should be important because it can make things better and easier. It's easy to discouraged by the differences in communication and feedback loop between the different devs, but we shouldn't and can't just give up and not care.
    Then we will never see true balance. Just look at the forum. How many post are there that are actually honest and not with hidden agenda? The developer need to set their own standard in class balancing instead of listening to feedback. It doesn't take much common sense to figure player feedback are mostly bias. Just look at what gwf/barb feedback did. It all back to square one again.

    @noworries#8859 please check with your college again. If one of the class they in charge has better performance, pls ask them to tone it back down to the equal level.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    > @adinosii said:
    > I am just wondering how feasible a "pure archery" Ranger is. I Enjoy archery as such, leveled one HR up to 70, just focusing on archery, but as you all know, that has not been considered usable in groups - partly because a ranger that is standing away from the group will not benefit from the massive buffs in M15.
    >
    > Now, that the massive buffs are going away, has the archery Ranger become viable?

    At the moment, single-target archery-focused hunter is the only build which can deal any noticeable damage in epic dungeons. So yes archery will be there.

    It still needs some significant boosts to compete with other DPS classes, and trapper and melee even more so, but we may get there.
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 666 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    > @adinosii said:

    > I am just wondering how feasible a "pure archery" Ranger is. I Enjoy archery as such, leveled one HR up to 70, just focusing on archery, but as you all know, that has not been considered usable in groups - partly because a ranger that is standing away from the group will not benefit from the massive buffs in M15.

    >

    > Now, that the massive buffs are going away, has the archery Ranger become viable?



    At the moment, single-target archery-focused hunter is the only build which can deal any noticeable damage in epic dungeons. So yes archery will be there.



    It still needs some significant boosts to compete with other DPS classes, and trapper and melee even more so, but we may get there.

    Is the Of-hand stat fixed already on preview ?
  • susanna#6357 susanna Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    i think the power 'Split the Sky' should either be 1) moved to the pathfinder paragon as that seems the best path for ranged attacks or 2) placed in both storm warden and pathfinder paragons
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Hey everyone - I wanted to take a moment to thank you all for the feedback you have been giving. We've made a bunch of action items out of your feedback, that are actively helping to make Ranger better. As one of the Systems Designers on the team, and the person who (quite possibly) plays Ranger the most around here, I want you to know that there is someone here who espouses the betterment of Rangers, and the fixing of pain-points. I'm not specifically working on the class changes, but I am going into our daily playtests and trying different builds so I can give good feedback to those making the class changes. I also sit right next to those making class changes, and have no qualms in sharing my numerous opinions.

    I know there hasn't been much Dev interaction in this thread, but I want you to know I have been skulking in the shadows, and making action items out of what I have been seeing. I also want to stress that we aren't done making changes yet - there's still road for us to travel as we receive feedback and talk about potential changes.

    Oh, and before I slink back to the shadows, I want you to know that Aimed Shot has been in our crosshairs for weeks now.

    Thanks. I appreciate all your effort and hard work u put in to make HR a better class. However I do hope that your team could work together between each other in keeping the balance between all Dps role. lordaeolos posted a test on this thread ( page 5) that a barbarian could out perform HR by 90-100% with an inferior gear set. This isn't the balance we are promised in mod16. The difference is just too huge. Although I cant be sure if the test is genuine or something that is deliberate to cause drama or maybe there is some bug involved, I would appreciate if u could have a check on that. Thanks.

    Also thanks for looking into aimed shot.
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I haven't had a chance to run ACT on it, but the combat log shows Careful Attack doing 0 damage on all procs. ETA: ACT showed a total of four damaging procs over the course of a full expedition. Testing on dummies has yet to yield a single proc.

    Warden needs significant magnitude tweaks to its powers to even have a chance of competing with Hunter.
    Post edited by seveninchblade on
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    @rhroudadev#5641 hey, thnx for saying hi, good to know someone's out there flitting through the shadows. Sorry if HRs come off as a little bitter and twisted sometimes, many of us remember mod6 when the level cap went from 60-70 and our class slowly fell off the map, so we're hopefully understandably a little on edge en masse right now.

    Feanor's list is pretty much comprehensive. I'll just be happy if next mod when I'm on the looking for group channel I see "LFmore dps HR/Brb/etc." And get a cc break/++movement speed in pvp.

    No idea what my toon is now.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    Hey everyone - I wanted to take a moment to thank you all for the feedback you have been giving. We've made a bunch of action items out of your feedback, that are actively helping to make Ranger better. As one of the Systems Designers on the team, and the person who (quite possibly) plays Ranger the most around here, I want you to know that there is someone here who espouses the betterment of Rangers, and the fixing of pain-points. I'm not specifically working on the class changes, but I am going into our daily playtests and trying different builds so I can give good feedback to those making the class changes. I also sit right next to those making class changes, and have no qualms in sharing my numerous opinions.

    I know there hasn't been much Dev interaction in this thread, but I want you to know I have been skulking in the shadows, and making action items out of what I have been seeing. I also want to stress that we aren't done making changes yet - there's still road for us to travel as we receive feedback and talk about potential changes.

    Oh, and before I slink back to the shadows, I want you to know that Aimed Shot has been in our crosshairs for weeks now.

    Thanks. I appreciate all your effort and hard work u put in to make HR a better class. However I do hope that your team could work together between each other in keeping the balance between all Dps role. lordaeolos posted a test on this thread ( page 5) that a barbarian could out perform HR by 90-100% with an inferior gear set. This isn't the balance we are promised in mod16. The difference is just too huge. Although I cant be sure if the test is genuine or something that is deliberate to cause drama or maybe there is some bug involved, I would appreciate if u could have a check on that. Thanks.

    Also thanks for looking into aimed shot.
    @kangkeok The test was genuine, though following the Barbarian forum we do know that there are some bugs in that class giving it more damage than it should have, and should be addressed in the patch this week... I have since tested the Ranger versus a similar geared Wizard (22.8k) which is doing about 25% better than the ranger, and a much lower geared Rogue (15k) was slightly better than the Ranger (against testing Single target damage against target dummies with a 1 minute timer). I will save any further comparison testing for after this next patch (provided something happens with the Ranger this round)

    @rhroudadev#5641 thank you so much for chiming in on this thread, there is a pretty small number of the "elite" HR's left in the game on PC, many have moved on to other classes (or left the game) due to the many problems inherent to past class updates. As a software developer myself I completely understand the priority constraints that come from being up against a deadline; however the interaction on this forum does help show that items brought up in here are not merely being read past... Think of it this way: Let's say I was reading last night and my wife starts talking to me, but I don't look up, then she asks "are you listening to me?" and I respond "Yes" and she goes "what did I say then?" ... If my response is "You said some stuff, and don't worry I've got it", I would say that the response is going to be pretty negative, even though I really was listening, and I did plan to take care of the issues brought up (ok.. ok.. I do have some experience with that response...); if my response instead were to address the issues brought up, acknowledge them and tell her what challenges are faced her response is going to be far more positive and the followup dialog constructive.

    "Lord Willow"
    Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
    My Twitch Stream
    See my Youtube Channel for guides and more


    "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
  • aagni#2375 aagni Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    oak skin,stag heart shouls be doubled. "Prey" damage bonus should be increased(currently 5%). Base movement speed should be GREATLY increased. Base damage of everything should be increased.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Hey um, why IS Forest Medicine gone? I get why lifesteal had to go, but what's gamebreaking about spending a daily on healing? It doesn't invalidate the Failure State of healer resources, because it, too, is both on a cooldown and consumes a precious resource, and having the ability to slot a daily to take some pressure off the healer in clutch situations is a good abstraction of the general utility tabletop rangers get from their limited-but-specialized spell selection(including the ability to use Cure wands to save money on potions).
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User


    16) Undo the mod 15 nerf to Aspect of the Serpent. It was left over from when the team proposed, in a bad idea, to increase the number of stacks. Instead we got the slightly less bad idea to nerf the trapper path, which was already inadequate in pve. Now that nerf has been made even worse with mod 16, reducing the value of a stack to 2%.

    In private beta it used to give 3% stacking 3 times, however it couldnt build both stacks simultaneously, which made it feel horrible to play. I suggested a lower buff, but being able to build both stacks, and here we are.

    There is other stuff i would argue with you on, but i just wanted to tell you about that one thing specifically as i had influence on it.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    And why would it be game breaking for us to have a *gasp* 3% bonus and simultaneous stacks? My devout DC has an easier time dealing damage right now.
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User

    And why would it be game breaking for us to have a *gasp* 3% bonus and simultaneous stacks? My devout DC has an easier time dealing damage right now.

    I agree with you that It feels weak, but I was trying to balance what I had relative to other things the class had. I wasnt going to give a perma 9% buff if you alternated skills. Thats too strong compared to the other buff / class features the class has.

    That being said, i probably still wouldnt use it over aspect of the pack + falcon / seekers, as these are way to easy to obtain and are very strong buffs in comparison.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    It's too weak relative to the other features. I think it should be 2.5% honestly. And that with some other damage tweaks as well because overall damage is really low right now, but I don't want the fix to that to come from one skill.
  • userutf8userutf8 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User

    BUG 1: Marauder's Escape doesn't respect damage buff from Longshot feat (Hunter paragon)
    Conditions:
    1. Trade of Blades, dummy level 9 (tried on different dummies).
    2. STR = 20, Power = 0, no companions, feats, buffs, weapon enchant (naked)
    3. Passives Cruel Recovery, Primal Instincts (tried to swap each with Pathfinder's action to exclude chance of impact from passive)
    4. only main hand weapon with fixed damage slotted

    Actual result without Longshot feat (OK)
    weapon 1000 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 1750
    weapon 100 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 175

    Actual result WITH Longshot feat (BUG)
    weapon 1000 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 1750
    weapon 100 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 175

    Expected result WITH Longshot feat
    weapon 1000 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 2625
    weapon 100 on hit (pre-mitigated) returns 263

    NOTE: same test with Constricting Arrow shows the following:
    weapon 1000: 5145 (without feat) and 7717 (with feat)
    weapon 100: 514 (without feat) and 772 (with feat)
    OK.

    Please, fix

    BUG 2: Marauder's Escape hits 4 times
    Same conditions, fixed dmg 100 weapon,
    aim and cast Marauder's escape on dummy:

    4 hits with 175 damage each for the total of 700
    Tooltip says 525 and 3 hits.

    NOTE: you can sometimes proc 5 hits, but that doesn't repro consistently



    FEEDBACK: Why Marauder's Escape is not auto-target? Is it a bug or intended?
    If you jump or target lock, you can miss hit with marauder's escape.



    BUG 3: Hindering Shot tooltip is not correct
    Says that it gives 130 magnitude,
    Actual: 140.

    Suggestion: update tooltip



    FEEDBACK: Add Strong Grasping Roots to Hidering Shot
    Many times people asked for this change, and I wanna join that feedback.
    1. We don't need 3 types of roots: "Strong", "Weak" and "Root" - I think this module is about simplification, right, so, my suggestion is to simplify it.
    2. Hindering is only good in AoE rotation in new mod. Not due to Hindering shot being so good against multiple targets obviously, but due to its melee counterpart Hindering Strike (which btw is one of the best hitting powers for hybrid build atm).
    So, making it proc Strong Roots, you contribute to the skill AoE capabilities, which seems pretty reasonable on Hunter path.



    Also, please fix roots on Hindering Strike (they are still doing 0 damage).
    ABSOLUTE
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User



    @kangkeok The test was genuine, though following the Barbarian forum we do know that there are some bugs in that class giving it more damage than it should have, and should be addressed in the patch this week... I have since tested the Ranger versus a similar geared Wizard (22.8k) which is doing about 25% better than the ranger, and a much lower geared Rogue (15k) was slightly better than the Ranger (against testing Single target damage against target dummies with a 1 minute timer). I will save any further comparison testing for after this next patch (provided something happens with the Ranger this round)

    I appreciate your effort on this but I think a more solid test report like ACT would be more helpful to the developer to further analyze where went wrong.

  • userutf8userutf8 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User
    kangkeok said:



    @kangkeok The test was genuine, though following the Barbarian forum we do know that there are some bugs in that class giving it more damage than it should have, and should be addressed in the patch this week... I have since tested the Ranger versus a similar geared Wizard (22.8k) which is doing about 25% better than the ranger, and a much lower geared Rogue (15k) was slightly better than the Ranger (against testing Single target damage against target dummies with a 1 minute timer). I will save any further comparison testing for after this next patch (provided something happens with the Ranger this round)

    I appreciate your effort on this but I think a more solid test report like ACT would be more helpful to the developer to further analyze where went wrong.

    +1
    just hopped to ptr today to check some stuff. Tested 2 powers, found 3 bugs :-)

    BTW, about Ambush:

    I think they fixed that interaction with Longstrider (or maybe I had something that was breaking that interaction).
    Checked today: I can proc Ambush consistently when I cast LSS (checked with Vorpal and without Vorpal).

    However, there are still some bad things about Ambush:
    I can confirm that stealth on Ambush is broken by Split Shot and Aimed Shot Animation (weird, because other long cast powers, i.e. Snipe, Commanding Shot, Hawk Shot do not break it).

    Second issue that you can proc Ambush twice on Rapid Volley, Hindering Strike, RoA, etc.
    It would make more sense if it either multiprocced or procced once.


    ABSOLUTE
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    userutf8 said:



    kangkeok said:



    @kangkeok The test was genuine, though following the Barbarian forum we do know that there are some bugs in that class giving it more damage than it should have, and should be addressed in the patch this week... I have since tested the Ranger versus a similar geared Wizard (22.8k) which is doing about 25% better than the ranger, and a much lower geared Rogue (15k) was slightly better than the Ranger (against testing Single target damage against target dummies with a 1 minute timer). I will save any further comparison testing for after this next patch (provided something happens with the Ranger this round)

    I appreciate your effort on this but I think a more solid test report like ACT would be more helpful to the developer to further analyze where went wrong.

    +1
    just hopped to ptr today to check some stuff. Tested 2 powers, found 3 bugs :-)

    BTW, about Ambush:

    I think they fixed that interaction with Longstrider (or maybe I had something that was breaking that interaction).
    Checked today: I can proc Ambush consistently when I cast LSS (checked with Vorpal and without Vorpal).

    However, there are still some bad things about Ambush:
    I can confirm that stealth on Ambush is broken by Split Shot and Aimed Shot Animation (weird, because other long cast powers, i.e. Snipe, Commanding Shot, Hawk Shot do not break it).

    Second issue that you can proc Ambush twice on Rapid Volley, Hindering Strike, RoA, etc.
    It would make more sense if it either multiprocced or procced once.


    Yup. I hope they look into ambush too. Its has buggy interaction with other powers.
  • mord#3639 mord Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    Split the Sky is dealing 0 damage when you switch to melee stance...

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Rapid Strike deals 3184 Physical Damage to Target Dummy.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 159 Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Split the Sky gives 0 Lightning Damage to Target Dummy.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon gives 0 Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.

  • userutf8userutf8 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User
    FEEDBACK: Aspect of the pack needs to be reverted back to its mod 15 state or changed
    If you are within 30' or less with your ally, then you and ally get 500 CA, capped at 2500 - is laughable.
    We are talking about stat values O(10000) here.
    This power grants O(1000) = o(10000).
    Nobody has use of that 2500 stats (less than 2500 in real runs, actually)
    Nobody will rely on HR giving him 500 CA

    Excuse me, but that's a BAD DESIGN to add (fixed) stats to passives:
    this brings nothing to gameplay,
    this loses utility while the classes progress through new modules.

    Options that I see:
    - return AotP back to mod 15 state (bad, but acceptable solution)
    - change it to something generic but useful for teamplay: e.g. you and allies within 30' range deal 5% more damage.
    - change it to something interesting: you lose 10% critical severity, but each hit on target(s) has 20% chance to add DoT to target 25-50 magnitude per second (not precise numbers, just idea) while at least 2 teammates are within 30' range.

    FEEDBACK: Forestbond/Commander in chief cooldown reductions are not enough.
    They look balanced on paper (aka 2 sec reduction from Commander is useful for ranged single target and roots can be procced quite often, giving ~1 sec cooldown each time -seems great, isn't it?)
    However, it just doesn't 'feel' right in comparison to Warden's colldowns (we're talking about gameplay here, right? - it feels slow).
    My suggestion is to raise it up to 7.5-10% on Forestbond and 3 sec on Commander (if it ends up bad, you can always reduce them back).




    ABSOLUTE
  • userutf8userutf8 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 270 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 @rhroudadev#5641 @asterdahl
    Guys, just a matter of interest: why does this thread has way less feedback from devs than CW/GWF thread?
    Don't you think it's discouraging players and makes them to provide less feedback?
    When I read posts by @asterdahl in GWF thread, i can understand what devs will be focused at and what they won't be focused at.
    But here... we know only that there are tickets created for HR improvement, but what do those tickets contain except for Aimed Shot balancing? It's absolutely not clear! - How are we supposed to know that?
    It scares people away, because they think that the class will remain in its current broken non-balanced state (no, i do not agree that something that has so many bugs is "overbalanced", unless "overbalanced" = "buggy, so it cannot be balanced over in proper way").


    You give nice feedback in other threads!
    Please, give us more feedback in this thread as well!
    Please, let us know what you are going to fix/improve on HR and what you consider WAI and why!



    To players who care about HR:
    Please, do not ignore this thread, provide all feedback that you can.
    Please, report all bugs that you see (if they improve performance, that may be followed up by nerf of other WAI thing and when the bug is fixed, performance will be worse).
    Please, do not be shy to complain (aka QQ :-)) about bad features/powers: that QQ will let devs know that you do not enjoy these particular powers/features. QQ should be constructive though: explain why you do not enjoy this power/feat, suggest the solution - it really helps.




    ABSOLUTE
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