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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    Thanks for the feedback—since feedback on this power is so prevalent, I wanted to address a few things about it. First, I know that right now people are really not liking the power, I think there are plenty of good opportunities to use it, but maybe not enough for a primary mechanic, so I may make some adjustments.

    The problem is less "opportunities to use it" and more "if I use it I'm pretty much locked out of my Divinity powers".
    asterdahl said:

    With that said, at least in the meantime, I'd like to make some recommendations about how to use it, and address the edges. First of all, the VFX originally did not feature a distinct back to their effect, which looked much better. (Basically, the ground FX were a gradient chevron instead of a three sided triangle.) Ultimately, some internal feedback about confused positioning resulted in the FX getting changed temporarily, and I have not reverted them back, they don't perfectly match the area of effect either. It's fairly forgiving, and you can pretty much be standing anywhere immediately behind the shield and take reduced damage.

    Even with its new borders, once a bunch of enemies get into it, regardless of if the tank is in there as well, with all the other VFX going on, this faint effect is easily lost. In fact I had trouble just getting a party member to see it, with no enemies around!
    asterdahl said:


    It's definitely not meant for that, and it's an either-or situation. This isn't a pre mod16 Hallowed Ground, where you're supposed to be able to generate a massive area for rangers to stand far away and shoot, and tanks, and melee DPS to all stand inside and benefit from. It's just a reduction to damage taken, so in the average situation where the tank has aggro, the rest of the party shouldn't need its effects.

    I definitely don't want the Hallowed Ground size that would be far too much! As I mentioned the live Circle of Protection size is good, and that is in tune with spending 80% of your Divinity (thus shutting out divinity powers, which reduces your ability to pull aggro).
    asterdahl said:

    That being said, there are practical times to use this to give others a benefit, including times where you might want the whole party to benefit, such as before unavoidable group wide damage, like Cry of the Atropal. In those cases, the tank is not actively tanking enemies at the time, so they can safely drop it and the group can easily position behind the shield. In reality, at that point I would expect a Sanctuary, Astral Shield or Hallowed Ground to be dropped inside the Palisade as well.

    I would argue that if the only time the class feature is useful is in corner case scenarios, then it should be daily or encounter power option, not a class feature. Class features define the play of a class, making them hard to access and use, or have limited use, makes them poor at defining the class.

    I was watching a vid of a Tank GF, and I see they have a similar power, so is that part of the problem here?
    asterdahl said:

    Finally, it Palisade can also be put to good use by a Paladin off tank in a 10 man, by throwing it up in front of the main tank.

    Hopefully this has been a little food for thought on uses for Divine Palisade. Know that I do hear the feedback, and I do understand it. I also would like to hear more feedback after threat gets some buffs, and people get more comfortable holding enemies more still than they are likely currently able to.

    I'm not of the opinion that it is useless at the moment, on the contrary. I'm just of the opinion it could be better designed to be more useful and more worth the cost and a better definition for the Paladin class to distinguish it from the GF and GWF. (I guess I should port my ones of them over just to better understand the 3 tanks so I get a better grasp on how to make the OP feel distinct.)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • skrimshaw72skrimshaw72 Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Divine Call needs help. The only class mechanic with extra cost.

    Divine Call is now considerably less useful than other class "tab powers" due mostly to the additional cost in using it. It’s the only class mechanic with additional cost of use.
    Oathkeeper – Channel Divinity = Marginal divinity restoration; Cost: roots you in place unable to do anything but pose.

    Justicar – Divine Pallisade = 10 Damage resistance to team members who stand in the right spot; Cost 600 of your available 1000 Divinity.

    Other classes “Tab” power provides a useable buff with no additional cost to use the mechanic.
    Please consider taking another look at Paladin “tab powers”, currently they are significantly less beneficial than pre-overhaul.

    Post edited by skrimshaw72 on
  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Hello, following some suggestions to improve the class (I apologize in advance for my bad english):

    ++++++++++HERE FEEDBACK+++++++++++++

    Playing the preview showed me that OP can't tank, also in the simplest dungeons. The shield can't get so many damage, reason why I suggest that, maybe, increasing damage resistence when shield is up could be a way.
    Moreover, blocking only the amount of HP damages is not enough. I think double HP shielding can works.
    If you want OP as tank in MOD 16 you should rework on feats and make feats that allow to tank and not feats that have nothing to do with tanking.

    I hope MOD 16 can be a good rework of the game.
    Best of luck

    See you in game



    PS: I don't know why, but colour doesn't work.
  • gormenghast1gormenghast1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    asterdahl said:

    <
    I know the divinity mechanic keeps coming up, and I want you to know that I am listening. That being said, I would like to gather more feedback over the next few weeks before doing anything drastic. How have you been setting up your bars? Do you usually take more than one divinity spender? Divinity ultimately gives you more flexibility than a strict cool down, and mechanics that restore divinity more quickly, are like powers that lower your encounter cooldown.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Here is a more detailed feedback on the current build I am using to test the class in solo progression.

    At-Wills:
    - Valorous Strike: 45 magnitude. Chosen over Oath Strike because actual hits of 7 magnitude (10-30% general damage) doesn't even scratch the hitpoint bar of even the most fragile mob. Used in conjunction with Valorous Judgement it could also grant a very little chance to increase Smite's crit %, even if a whole feat for a chance to increase a chance feels excessively RNG to make any sense.
    - Radiant Strike: mainly a filler. 1/3 damage of Valorous Strike, too low damage to use it to get aggro on big pulls.

    Encounters:
    - Absolution: used only for Absolute Shield. Divinity gain is a pain and everything meaningful to increase its regen is mandatory. Still it forces the player to stay behind the shield doing nothing for a lot of time before being able to use again divinity fueled encounters.
    - Smite: the one and only damaging encounter. Damage is pretty nice and the increased attack range feels good. Divinity cost is ok. Being the one power that the whole class seems to revolve around now, due to the targeting system in NW it can land on the wrong target more often than not if the enemies gather together as they often do. Converting it to a very small area of effect around the main target (3' or less) would help with the limits of the game engine and its targeting system.
    - Bane: only meaningful AoE DD encounter (Templar's has the same divinity cost and hits for 58% of Bane's dmg, Vow of Enmity doesn't cost divinity but its meager 100 magnitude doesn't make it worth slotting). Conditionally used when enemies are more numerous and when using Smite on the most dangerous one has too much chance of random retargeting on some trash mob nearby.

    Dailies:
    - Divine Judgement: heavy hitting daily. Suffers the same big targeting limit of Smite. Till mod 15 its little radius helped a lot in being able to hit the intended target, even when surrounded by adds; now it requires to wait a lot for a clear line of targeting to be used effectively.
    - Radiant Charge: AoE daily with mediocre damage. One would really at least expect to see some knockdown effect or a stun or any addictional effect from a cavalry charge but alas, there's none.

    Passives:
    - Divine Justice: wheelchair passive. 30% damage reduction is the handicap, 5% more damage brings it effectively to 25% less dmg but the difference is minimal and it doesn's solve the problem of an excruciatinlgy low DPS in Justicar spec.
    - Composure: you regenerate 15% divinity faster. 'Nuff said.

    Feats:

    -Valorous judgement (over Sacred Shield): better a minimal chance of an increased crit for Smite than more stamina to block (no DPS while blocking for the Paladin as Fighter does, even if the shield mechanic has become identical on any other side). Addictionally Sacred Shield is a first tier feat that works on an At-Will unlockable at 72 level. Strange.
    -Absolute Shield (over Divine Reciprocation): divinity gain (albeit while blocking, thus no possibility to do damage) instead of a feat that improves healing a little for a tank class that has little reason to slot Divine Touch among his 3 ancounters.
    -Bound to the Land (over Radiant Charge): why ever would a paladin want to charge forward with Radiant Charge? I guess that Bound to the Land could come useful in control heavy scenarios, but feels like being stuck with a ball and chain for the whole duration of the effect.
    -Towering light (over Vigilant Defender): in divinity vs. stamina regen challenges, divinity wins hands down in any case.
    - Bulwark of Faith (over Divine Benefactor): an unreliable (daily based) 50% stamina refill over an useless range increase for Divine Protector at the cost of stripping any kind of usefulness from that daily.

    Note on class mechanic: "Divine Pallisade"
    At the cost of whopping 600 divinity, a positional shield that reduces for 10% incoming damage to anyone stading behind it is absolutely irrelevant both in solo play as it is in grouped content. In regards to party positioning, the tank is naturally situated on the opposite side of where DPS and healer classes are supposed to stay in order to grant combat advantage and redirect targeted AoEs from bosses away from the rest of the party. 10% less incoming damage isn't in any way worth the risk of getting hit by the heavy hits meant for a tank class by anyone else in the party, nor denying damage alltogether with a reactive dodge/run outside of the hit area. It makes more sense to unbind the tab key to avoid using it than losing 600 divinity for no real reason. In its place I would love to see implemented something like the 5th edition paladin feature "Avenging Angel", with radiant wings sprouting from the back of the paladin and a mechanic that could give him an hard taunt for 10 seconds, a 10% damage debuff in a 20' radius and a movement bonus due to the mobility granted by his celestial wings. At a cost off 500 divinity a similar mechanic could be worth using in dire situations where aggro management or the tide of battle would request. Plus side: which paladin player wouldn't want to appear as an angelic champion of his deity?

    DPS wise to solo content, the one above seems to be the least slow spec for a justicar. Naturally it's not meant to maximize the tank role in parties, where many powers and feats would need to be swapped for increased aggro management, higher stamina regeneration and, situationally, secondary healing to support the healer. Anyways it's still very hard to progress with an acceptable pace when compared to every other class, in consideration that paladins are the only ones that don't sport a DPS paragon path. I'll withold any feedback on Oathkeeper till the loadout bugs will be fixed in the future.

  • taikaias#9396 taikaias Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Paladins have no capacity to tank in Mod 16. Their Judge build, which I used for campaigns and solo tasks like dailies or weeklies, have been stripped from them. They're left with no ability to tank, even with my azures slotted in for defense slots, and no ability to do damage in solo tasks or campaigns. They're left as the most useless class in the game in the new build. There is no point to having a paladin in the new Mod. I'm left drinking healing potions, just as much as my Trickster Rogue currently does, to try to stay alive. It is impossible to tank now using a paladin.
  • trialbyfire001trialbyfire001 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    Hi asterdahl, where I understand your 30% damage reduction there are some issues with it.
    1) our weapon damage are already lowered to compensate for it
    2) our weapons power and stats are already lowered for it

    Actually, these two points are not correct. In Module 16, all weapon damage is the same across all classes, except rogues, due to dual wielding.

    My mistake, I was thinking back to mod 15 as I am a console player and doing the best I can since my toon on pc is really bad.
    Back to another thing, have you noticed that the physical and magical damage is still not working for paladin? Yes it’s small but we aren’t getting it when all other classes are.
    Thanks

  • trialbyfire001trialbyfire001 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    Hi asterdahl, where I understand your 30% damage reduction there are some issues with it.
    1) our weapon damage are already lowered to compensate for it
    2) our weapons power and stats are already lowered for it

    Actually, these two points are not correct. In Module 16, all weapon damage is the same across all classes, except rogues, due to dual wielding.

    My mistake, I was thinking back to mod 15 as I am a console player and doing the best I can since my toon on pc is really bad.
    Back to another thing, have you noticed that the physical and magical damage is still not working for paladin? Yes it’s small but we aren’t getting it when all other classes are.
    Thanks

  • skaarl75skaarl75 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    @asterdahl There are a LOT of issues with the currently standing Justicar in particular. One is this outdated and disproven belief that tanks need to be massively lower in dps to offset their survivability. It's not true. For one, they will always be lower in damage output just in the inherent differences in play. Tanks do tanky things such as blocking and using powers for mitigation, which means they are not dps'ing. They are also moving forward going to be slotting defense and deflect, not power, which will also lower dmg. I would suggest removing the 30% reduction, and dropping smite by like 10-15% without changing the divinity cost, and just see what happens. I predict 1) we will still be sub-par dps, 2) our at-wills may actually be worth using (right now its more efficient just stay in block and take the sta building talent) and 3) people will be happier with a slightly higher dps and more active playstyle.

    Other than that, our feats and powers are lackluster at best.and don't get me started on the tab ability, which frankly is a total waste. I know, you keep saying its useful... its not. I know it must be your brainchild, but this one was stillborn.
  • benyrbenyr Member Posts: 238 Arc User
    "It makes more sense to unbind the tab key to avoid using it than losing 600 divinity for no real reason"

    100% agree with this, the amount of times ive hit tab out of habbit, and spent the next 5 mins cursing my lack of divinity already is obscene. To have a power permanently locked on my toolbar that is highly situational at best and just plain useless at worst is just causing problems. Id genuinly rather have no tab function active whilst soloing than Divine Palisade.
  • shadoewraythshadoewrayth Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I have one fairly big complaint over the new Paladin paragons...

    In every game I have ever played, Paladins were paladins because they could do healing and tanking - this is still true... however, the absolutely most iconic ability of every Paladin was simple: Lay on Hands. No matter how you specced, what paths you picked, etc, ALL Paladins could LoH. It is so iconic, that, to me (and probably several others), the character can NOT possibly be a Paladin if they cannot LoH.

    Yet, that is exactly what you have chosen to do? To take the most identifying staple of being a Paladin, and put it solely within the Healer side of the class... Sorry, but, that makes the Paladin nothing more than a Fighter who happened to pick up a few tricks from the Cleric. 18 Fighter/2 Cleric is not a Paladin. Paladins have Lay on Hands. They didn't just learn how to heal, they are gifted, blessed, imbued by their deities to do certain things that Clerics cannot do, or even attempt to do, and the epitome of that is LoH.

    Without it, it isn't a Paladin.

    Thanks for taking the time to check out the changes on preview, and write up your thoughts. I certainly appreciate them. For me, I've also played a lot of games with Paladins, and played just as many where a Lay on Hands style power does not make an appearance.

    That being said, I understand that to you, Lay on Hands has a symbolic significance. I also understand that Lay on Hands is a significant component of the Paladin's base kit in D&D. Powers in Neverwinter obviously are inspired by the source material, but rebuilt to work in the context of an MMO. Lay on Hands as it is in Neverwinter, is much more powerful than the version of Lay on Hands Paladins have access to in pen and paper D&D.

    In terms of a basic healing power, both Paladin paragon paths do have access to Divine Touch. At a conceptual level, if you're just looking for the ability to heal as a Justicar, you do have that option.

    Are you mostly frustrated with not having access to the spell of that name, or were you specifically frustrated not having access to the effect of the current Lay on Hands as a tank?
    It's not really a frustration. It is a key part. Without it, it isn't even a paladin, to me, anymore. I understand that most paladin players did not use LoH, but I kept it slotted, as a tank, from the first time I got it. The ability to spend however much of my AP I needed, to heal back to full life? As a tank, that ability was more important than any other daily I had. I believe that this is the path you guys seem to want paladins to follow, as they are the only class in the new style without a DPS role of any sort (just Tank and Healer), right?

    So, having dailies that allow me to do more DPS? Not something I care about unless I am fighting trash that isn't a concern to begin with, and all we are trying to do is clear it faster. But, on bosses or other tough stuff? It's far more important to have a full-heal for when things go bad: the healer dies or runs out of ability to heal and needs time, etc. It isn't used all the time like an actual heal, it's a split-second game changer, and is what sets a paladin apart from the other tanks. You can slap graphics on whatever abilities (change the names, etc), and think that makes them different, but without that ability, a paladin is pretty much just a fighter who dipped his toe into divinity.

    For example, the dailies of the 3 tanks... one of these looks, feels, acts 100% different than the other two, who, without actually KNOWING those abilities would be indistinguishable enough that most players would not know who those abilities actually belong to. I will remove the names, and just give the descriptions, to show what I mean.

    Daily Power: Decreases damage taken by 30% and deal physical damage to attackers whenever you take damage. 10s.
    Daily Power: Smash the ground, causing the earth to temporarily shake beneath you, damaging the enemies around you. Enemies have a chance to stumble and fall down during this attack.
    Daily Power: Increases your maximum HP by 20%, restores the amount increased, and increases damage dealt by 10%. 12s
    Daily Power: Redirects all damage that would be dealt to the nearest ally to you. 12s
    Daily Power: You gain immunity to most control effects and erect a barrier around you decreasing the damage taken by allies within by 20%. 14s
    Daily Power: Pummel your target with two attacks, knocking them away.

    Without looking at the charts of abilities, and only looking at this list, most people would not know which ones were the Fighter's, and which were the Paladin's. They would almost certainly know which belonged to the Barbarian, though. Why? Because they actually have a different feel, a different thought and approach. You could take the Fighter and Paladin ones and exchange them, and no one would really know the difference, overall.

    The one that redirects all damage from the nearest ally to the tank? That could be a divine thing, or it could just be the fighter throwing himself in front of the attack to take it for them. The first one... is that some form of divine protection and retribution or something the fighter is doing? Sadly, the 3rd one could actually belong to a Barbarian tank, as it is right up there with their rage-mechanic, but, the other Barbarian dailies are so very obvious, that we know it doesn't belong to them... but, could easily belong to either of the other 2, since it, like the other 3, lacks enough flavor to make it decidedly different from the other class.

    Now, Let me post LoH. If it was listed in with the others, would there be ANY player that would say it belonged to any tank aside from Paladin?

    Daily Power: Heal target ally or self to their maximum HP. Remove all negative status effects from target.

    It is so obviously NOT Fighter or Barbarian, in the exact same way that smashing the ground or pummeling a target brutally is a Barbarian's flavor. It isn't frustration, it is confusion that the new style is to make a Paladin the only non-DPS class, yet make the tank path for it indistinguishable from the Fighter tank path, yet let the Barbarian be entirely different? I mean, look at the tank mechanics themselves: Paladin and fighter both have the exact same ability that lowers DPS by X% (just different names), while increasing threat; but Barbarian doesn't have that mechanic at all. Result? Paladin and Fighter play pretty much the exact same, just look different; the Barbarian tank requires playing differently, thinking differently - which is how the other two should be, too.

    Paladins need to be divine, which LoH is a major part of that. They tank by being able to heal, divinely protect (like a circle of protection or something). Fighters are more about tactics, it is what sets them apart from Barbs (they actually think and strategize) and apart from Pallies (they put their faith in their skills and talents, not in a deity), so their stuff should reflect that. The three tanks should honestly play and feel completely alien to each other... and, I am not seeing that so far with Paladins vs Fighters.
  • eoleeeolee Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    I am all ready for the public lynching since this thread is obviously one of the most heated ones after what im going to post here.

    Take the old OP pre mod 16 (as prot and devo) and compare it to now.
    Protector before: wait for buffs if you were understanding something, use templar get millions of temp HP, be a punching ball.
    Use SW and circle of power use your DJ hit for millions. Rinse repeat.
    Devo before: bond of virtue (what was more passive than that), vow on biggest mobs or templar/relentless to proc infinite flash of light, bane the 2 dps or the 1 dps and the boss for 5 men 3*2 times, then afk. There was a reason why devo was named afkdin, dont you all think? I mean, please find me a devo here who never fell asleep in the elevator in codg? And the ridiculous healings we were making, one tab and bond of virtue, everybody healed for 450k+ seriously...

    Im not going to comment on the details of how each power and encounters got reworked. Some have pros some have cons, and i agree some make little sense to me so far.
    But there is some action now in playing a healer Paladin... and there is some more challenge and brain work in playing as a tank.
    And the dmg we can do is still consequent (without the hawk buffing smite). It is not quite as easy to heal now and it is not quite as easy not to die now in some situations as a prot. Idk.

    Took me the whole leveling process to make up my mind on OP. I was like most of you here at the beginning. But after some days there i like my OP still. And I hope its going to be the case for most of you. They actually made the Paladin more active now than before. And its not the case for most classes so far in my opinion.

    PS:Please dont tell me to go get my brain checked since i actually like the paladin changes. I respect everyone opinion, so please respect mine.


  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    asterdahl said:

    emilemo said:

    I see a lot of vague comments made here by the sole dev responsible for both developing and seemingly also for community management. "Some zones/areas/maps/instances are not yet balanced to accommodate the class changes."

    Well, what exactly are we testing then? Cause my super tank (super meaning something very weak, like a newborn chicken) was just insta killed in one of the portals in Castle Never. You know the 5 portals, where the mobs are so weak on Live you 1shot them before they even reach you. Ye,s those killed my 18k Justicar. Awesome! So, what are we testing @asterdahl ? We cant properly test anything if we dont know where to test, where are things wai?

    I'll tell you what you're testing. You're testing to see how much you can push this bs build before people start screaming and name calling and mods would have to step in and delete posts/ban folks. You know how sometimes a company would advertise an open position and even call candidates over for interviews only to never follow thru with any of them.. That company is simply fishing to see whats in the water. That's what you at Cryptic are doing, you're testing to see how much you can get away with. Well, we'll see about that.

    Hi Emilemo, I understand your frustration, but to be clear—I never suggested that anyone not test anything because it was not working as intended. I have just tried to make it clear that what many are experiencing; such as being unexpectedly one shot in Castle Never, or by a spider in Undermountain, those are bugs.

    These bugs come from various sources, one of the most egregious was related to the chicken companion buffing enemies for instance. Tracking bugs like this down is one of our primary reasons for running a preview server.

    That doesn't mean we want you to stop testing, or stop providing feedback. I just ask that you take your experiences on the preview server with a grain of salt, and realize that if I say "we're not aiming to make things significantly harder," and then you get one shot, that you probably ran into a bug.

    I'm not upset with anyone when they take the time out of their day to come here and provide in-depth feedback around their experiences that involved getting one shotted. It's already a lot to ask to come to the forums and type up your feedback, so I understand not everyone has time to read the other posts, and find out about various issues. And that's okay.

    But if I can at least help people to understand that they're experiencing bugs, and not that Module 16 is being designed to one shot people. Or better yet, if I can help warn a few people about the issues before they run into them, or before they form their thoughts around balance as if the bugs were intentional—I think that saves everyone some time and grief.

    That said, I really would like to personally apologize on behalf of the team for the egregious bugs that are killing people outright unexpectedly or making it impossible or difficult to test some content for feedback. We would very much like to have gone to preview without any of those issues. Neverwinter has been around for a while now, and there are a lot of moving pieces—and we've changed a lot of them. We truly appreciate all of your help.
    I gotta say @asterdahl , I am humbled by your reply. I know my latests posts on this thread are plagued by escalating hostility, I apologize for that and I appreciate you responding despite everything. Being negative or aggressive is definitely not my intention here. You must know, me and other posters, we are only spending time writing stuff because we care to some dregree or another for the game and for our chosen class. I've been with Neverwinter since the begining, Ive left and returned, Ive spent money and I havent and I find myself wishing a long and bright future for the game because after Eso, Wow, GW2 and some othet titles I end up here still.

    That doesnt mean I like what Im seeing on Preview right now, it means I want to like it and you and your team have the power to do something about that. The game needed a hard reset, I agree to that. We on Live have reached such insane power levels that even the strongest monsters and the craziest burst damage you put in cant tickle us. However Im upset because I honestly feel the above mentioned hard reset is hurting some classes much more than others. I will continue to test and give feedback and even if you dont give us better Auras, or better Feats, or better Tab(actually you better give us a better Tab!) I ask that you, at least make sure the Justicar paladin is a capable tank who can hold aggro and survive it for a time. And most of all make the Justicar paladin a unique tank, make him feel special in some way. Give him something that separates him from the rest of the classes/paths who can also block damage, heal and tank. There must be a reason to go Justicar - you understand me I hope - and the reason is simple. The Justicar must be fun to play, must have defining qualities separating him from the rest, making him into his own animal.

    Thats all. Thanks for your time
    Post edited by emilemo on
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  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    artifleur said:

    asterdahl said:


    Thanks for the feedback! I'll look into this, it is not intended that you cannot block the initial application of paralyze. Though, as you have correctly guessed, if you are successfully hit with paralysis, it is intended that the individual stuns can still affect you while blocking.

    If I'm not mistaken partial paralysis is one of the grievous control effects introduced with tomb of annihilation which purposely disregard immunity (dodge, block, unstoppable, etc...).

    Another example is the avatar of orcus's push and stun power which also is part of another set of grievous control effects. These all have red zones but disregard dodging out of the red zone and send you back in if you don't move after the dodge animation finishes but before the attack happens. The most common example within this group is the area stun attack that all kinds of golems use, immunity works for them but not dodge.

    I've encountered several NPC's in Undermountain which use partial paralysis. I'm getting really tired of this effect and I'd be glad to see it finally respecting dodge and block.

    Fixing all other grievous control effects would great too.
    Powers like paralysis allow us to punish you for making a mistake without just outright killing you. Ultimately, it's not supposed to be fun when you get paralyzed. But hopefully effects like paralysis allow the opportunity for fun when you succeed in avoiding them, because the stakes are higher.

    That being said, let me address a few things about unavoidable control effects: first, there are unavoidable control effects. Most of the control effects that are intentionally unavoidable are in boss fights. These are unavoidable, because the mechanics can be trivialized by dodge rolling, since most dodges have pretty huge immunity windows. (Not to mention, blocking classes don't need to time anything at all for big mechanics like Acererak's tilt, or Orcus's wings.)

    Outside of boss fights, generally—it's intended that control effects can mostly be avoided. With something like paralysis, which is an applied control effect, the initial application is what will need to be blocked, so you won't be able to raise your shield to block the individual stuns that happen if you become paralyzed, but you'll be able to, for instance, block the Enervoraptor's breath attack to prevent paralysis. I apologize that this wasn't the case already on preview.

    That being said, there is one exception that will remain unblockable, and those are gaze style attacks. For gaze attacks, you'll still need to turn away to avoid the application.
    Thank you for your answer.

    If unavoidable control effects are to be kept for boss fights only I can live with it.

    Forget what I said about the golem red zone attack, it seems to be working correctly now.

    I'll keep an eye on partial paralysis in future preview versions.
  • hastur905hastur905 Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    @asterdahl

    The number one thing that seems to be the most frustrating at the moment is threat, we can get it, but we can't maintain it. Putting down our HP/Stamina Shield is not maintaining it. So without this being fixed/adjusted we can't really understand how much or little divinity is working versus other things. Putting down the Shield also feels more clunky than Mod 15 adjustments, and without some visual clue like we had before we don't really know it working until we see our HP bar drop, but that also could because it is a not a circular shield but just in front of us. I would like to see threat be like the Justicar puts down his Shield and everything is a 45 degree radius stops and starts moving towards the Justicar to take a swipe at him, ignoring all heals and assorted wacks from other players, the enemy continues to focus on the Justicar oblivious to anything else. That is the kinda threat we need to see if the hits on the shield, the amount of shield (HP), are enough to fill up our divinity to provide an answer with our holy power.

    On a second note, the Tab mechanic on the Vanguard allows the use of the Shield from all points of attack, like the Paladin had in Mod 15, but it is essentially a self based effect, not a party one. So I understand that maybe to differeniate it from the Justicar it was given a party DR. However, as it stands it is neither cost effective nor practical. Using 60% of your Divinity to lessen the damage taken by group members standing behind you seems impractical, the only person likely to stand behind you would be a healing Cleric, all dps classes would hopefully be standing on the other side of the enemies to gain combat advantage, which would also mean that the person most likely to benefit from divine protector would be the selfsame Cleric. I like the animation, but some alternative to what it actually is doing would be better, no matter the cost. To give a few examples,
    1.threat is increased by a % when TAB mechanic is used, but a % of damage is reflected back at the attackers.
    2.all enemies facing the Justicar are stunned by the brightness of his holy shield and are stunned to XX seconds and the Justicar is immune to all damage and CC for the same XX seconds.
    3.the Justicars HP Shield is replentished by the same % cost of Divinty used and gains X seconds of immunity to damage and an increase of speed of X % for same seconds.

    I do have many other observations, but as I stated earlier, unless the Threat Mechanic is adjusted/fixed I can't really say if the class is WAI.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    It’s possible to drop Pallisade and walk out of it to have something for other PCs to stand in while you aggro the mobs.

    It just requires some thought from everyone.

    The problem with Pallisade is the opportunity cost of the power compared to the effect. It’s a small effect for a huge cost.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • kopisusu36b#1324 kopisusu36b Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Trying CN private today, from normal 275k HP downscaling into 208K HP inside CN,
    Meet first mob.
    [Combat (Self)] Shadow Demon deals 77470 (134600) Physical Damage to you with Claw.
    [Combat (Self)] Glabrezu deals 200062 (348000) Physical Damage to you with Pincer.
    and died.
    Maybe CN need party of 5 to play. Or is it?
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    Trying CN private today, from normal 275k HP downscaling into 208K HP inside CN,
    Meet first mob.
    [Combat (Self)] Shadow Demon deals 77470 (134600) Physical Damage to you with Claw.
    [Combat (Self)] Glabrezu deals 200062 (348000) Physical Damage to you with Pincer.
    and died.
    Maybe CN need party of 5 to play. Or is it?

    [13:08] [Combat (Self)] Glabrezu deals 337560 (348000) Physical Damage to you with Pincer.

    This mob might be broken or you might have the companion bug.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    marnival said:

    asterdahl said:

    After all, even in a solo setting, the tank has more survivability than the DPS, so there has to be some trade off. Sometimes in you'll see a tanking stance that can be toggled on or off (that reduces outgoing damage, but increases threat and mitigation), or you'll just see the base damage values lower than on DPS classes

    In a solo setting, survivability is rarely the primary concern. In a solo setting, against even-level mobs with appropriate gear, time to kill, efficiency in dealing with mob groups, are far more relevant--would you not agree? OP does not have a DPS paragon path. What is your reasoning that there is not already a trade-off in that tanks will be slotting defensive enchants and spend a significant time shielding to regain resources?
    < This..

    I fully understand the reasoning that tank takes more damge do less damage it is a no brainer.
    However that is aleady built in the game.

    Hp the same for classes, ac removed, enounters for dps classes do more damage, being tanky = get more defence in items, enchants and stats using defence mechanics that prevents doing damage etc etc.

    If you want to be more tanky the very fondation of the game makes you do less damage it is built in the core of the game mechanics.

    Now adding a 30% damage reduction on top of that is not the same as saying we want to see tanks do less damage its ADDING to an already existing condition

    Now when tanks block (absorbing damage) the other avoid the damage with dodge, sprint etc it does not mean tanks can handle more mobs on the contrary it means having MORE dps + being able to avoid damage makes you take LESS damage and killing the mobs faster.

    What you do would MABY be true if all damage was unavoidable which is NOT the case.

    So the question remains - What are the reason behind this 30% damage reduction as the reason stated is void in reality ??
    Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. First I'd like to say that, the base magnitude of a tank's powers are not in fact, lower than DPS. In fact, that is exactly the reason there is a reduction to damage overall, as the tank classes share damaging powers with healer and DPS specs that need to use the powers with reduced damage magnitudes.

    This is mostly a psychological element, we could have put a buff on all the DPS and healing paragon paths, but decided not to. We could reduce the magnitudes of all the powers when you choose the paragon path, so you don't see a -30% on your passive powers, and we still may do something like that for the final build—but hand adjusting those numbers on multiple powers as opposed to one spot as we hone in on the final balance would ultimately be a misuse of time.

    With all of that said, I'll repeat something I said in the fighter thread recently: we are aiming for the tank to do roughly 60-70% of a similarly geared and skilled DPS when they aren't too worried about mitigation. We have seen tanks pulling high numbers internally despite the 30% reduction, but we know that they're probably below that target. Numbers on things are still largely up in the air and damage values and enemy strength is going to change a lot over the next few weeks as we hone in on the final balance.

    So, knowing that target, we will certainly adjust the passive on tanks as we isolate exactly how far below the DPS each tank is. We also hear what you're saying about soloing, and we're certainly going to examine the options.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:


    Thanks for the feedback—since feedback on this power is so prevalent, I wanted to address a few things about it. First, I know that right now people are really not liking the power, I think there are plenty of good opportunities to use it, but maybe not enough for a primary mechanic, so I may make some adjustments.

    The problem is less "opportunities to use it" and more "if I use it I'm pretty much locked out of my Divinity powers".
    asterdahl said:

    With that said, at least in the meantime, I'd like to make some recommendations about how to use it, and address the edges. First of all, the VFX originally did not feature a distinct back to their effect, which looked much better. (Basically, the ground FX were a gradient chevron instead of a three sided triangle.) Ultimately, some internal feedback about confused positioning resulted in the FX getting changed temporarily, and I have not reverted them back, they don't perfectly match the area of effect either. It's fairly forgiving, and you can pretty much be standing anywhere immediately behind the shield and take reduced damage.

    Even with its new borders, once a bunch of enemies get into it, regardless of if the tank is in there as well, with all the other VFX going on, this faint effect is easily lost. In fact I had trouble just getting a party member to see it, with no enemies around!
    asterdahl said:


    It's definitely not meant for that, and it's an either-or situation. This isn't a pre mod16 Hallowed Ground, where you're supposed to be able to generate a massive area for rangers to stand far away and shoot, and tanks, and melee DPS to all stand inside and benefit from. It's just a reduction to damage taken, so in the average situation where the tank has aggro, the rest of the party shouldn't need its effects.

    I definitely don't want the Hallowed Ground size that would be far too much! As I mentioned the live Circle of Protection size is good, and that is in tune with spending 80% of your Divinity (thus shutting out divinity powers, which reduces your ability to pull aggro).
    asterdahl said:

    That being said, there are practical times to use this to give others a benefit, including times where you might want the whole party to benefit, such as before unavoidable group wide damage, like Cry of the Atropal. In those cases, the tank is not actively tanking enemies at the time, so they can safely drop it and the group can easily position behind the shield. In reality, at that point I would expect a Sanctuary, Astral Shield or Hallowed Ground to be dropped inside the Palisade as well.

    I would argue that if the only time the class feature is useful is in corner case scenarios, then it should be daily or encounter power option, not a class feature. Class features define the play of a class, making them hard to access and use, or have limited use, makes them poor at defining the class.

    I was watching a vid of a Tank GF, and I see they have a similar power, so is that part of the problem here?
    asterdahl said:

    Finally, it Palisade can also be put to good use by a Paladin off tank in a 10 man, by throwing it up in front of the main tank.

    Hopefully this has been a little food for thought on uses for Divine Palisade. Know that I do hear the feedback, and I do understand it. I also would like to hear more feedback after threat gets some buffs, and people get more comfortable holding enemies more still than they are likely currently able to.

    I'm not of the opinion that it is useless at the moment, on the contrary. I'm just of the opinion it could be better designed to be more useful and more worth the cost and a better definition for the Paladin class to distinguish it from the GF and GWF. (I guess I should port my ones of them over just to better understand the 3 tanks so I get a better grasp on how to make the OP feel distinct.)
    While I was playing devil's advocate for the power, I am aware that it's not particularly popular, and I am going to be going at it with no reservations about a complete rework, or moving some things around entirely. I just wanted to make sure people were thinking about the power practically and had all the details about its use.

    I will say though, that though I described potential uses for shielding party wide damage, it is best put to use when simply tanking a large group or a boss to benefit only you. Once you have a clear aggro advantage over others, you basically can use it as a free mitigation daily, as a 10% reduction to damage taken is on the scale of damage reduction dailies.

    There won't be a change to Palisade this week, but I hope to get to it soon. There will be a slight threat boost though, and a fix for all snap aggro powers, so it may free up some divinity.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    <
    I know the divinity mechanic keeps coming up, and I want you to know that I am listening. That being said, I would like to gather more feedback over the next few weeks before doing anything drastic. How have you been setting up your bars? Do you usually take more than one divinity spender? Divinity ultimately gives you more flexibility than a strict cool down, and mechanics that restore divinity more quickly, are like powers that lower your encounter cooldown.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Here is a more detailed feedback on the current build I am using to test the class in solo progression.

    At-Wills:
    - Valorous Strike: 45 magnitude. Chosen over Oath Strike because actual hits of 7 magnitude (10-30% general damage) doesn't even scratch the hitpoint bar of even the most fragile mob. Used in conjunction with Valorous Judgement it could also grant a very little chance to increase Smite's crit %, even if a whole feat for a chance to increase a chance feels excessively RNG to make any sense.
    - Radiant Strike: mainly a filler. 1/3 damage of Valorous Strike, too low damage to use it to get aggro on big pulls.

    Encounters:
    - Absolution: used only for Absolute Shield. Divinity gain is a pain and everything meaningful to increase its regen is mandatory. Still it forces the player to stay behind the shield doing nothing for a lot of time before being able to use again divinity fueled encounters.
    - Smite: the one and only damaging encounter. Damage is pretty nice and the increased attack range feels good. Divinity cost is ok. Being the one power that the whole class seems to revolve around now, due to the targeting system in NW it can land on the wrong target more often than not if the enemies gather together as they often do. Converting it to a very small area of effect around the main target (3' or less) would help with the limits of the game engine and its targeting system.
    - Bane: only meaningful AoE DD encounter (Templar's has the same divinity cost and hits for 58% of Bane's dmg, Vow of Enmity doesn't cost divinity but its meager 100 magnitude doesn't make it worth slotting). Conditionally used when enemies are more numerous and when using Smite on the most dangerous one has too much chance of random retargeting on some trash mob nearby.

    Dailies:
    - Divine Judgement: heavy hitting daily. Suffers the same big targeting limit of Smite. Till mod 15 its little radius helped a lot in being able to hit the intended target, even when surrounded by adds; now it requires to wait a lot for a clear line of targeting to be used effectively.
    - Radiant Charge: AoE daily with mediocre damage. One would really at least expect to see some knockdown effect or a stun or any addictional effect from a cavalry charge but alas, there's none.

    Passives:
    - Divine Justice: wheelchair passive. 30% damage reduction is the handicap, 5% more damage brings it effectively to 25% less dmg but the difference is minimal and it doesn's solve the problem of an excruciatinlgy low DPS in Justicar spec.
    - Composure: you regenerate 15% divinity faster. 'Nuff said.

    Feats:

    -Valorous judgement (over Sacred Shield): better a minimal chance of an increased crit for Smite than more stamina to block (no DPS while blocking for the Paladin as Fighter does, even if the shield mechanic has become identical on any other side). Addictionally Sacred Shield is a first tier feat that works on an At-Will unlockable at 72 level. Strange.
    -Absolute Shield (over Divine Reciprocation): divinity gain (albeit while blocking, thus no possibility to do damage) instead of a feat that improves healing a little for a tank class that has little reason to slot Divine Touch among his 3 ancounters.
    -Bound to the Land (over Radiant Charge): why ever would a paladin want to charge forward with Radiant Charge? I guess that Bound to the Land could come useful in control heavy scenarios, but feels like being stuck with a ball and chain for the whole duration of the effect.
    -Towering light (over Vigilant Defender): in divinity vs. stamina regen challenges, divinity wins hands down in any case.
    - Bulwark of Faith (over Divine Benefactor): an unreliable (daily based) 50% stamina refill over an useless range increase for Divine Protector at the cost of stripping any kind of usefulness from that daily.

    Note on class mechanic: "Divine Pallisade"
    At the cost of whopping 600 divinity, a positional shield that reduces for 10% incoming damage to anyone stading behind it is absolutely irrelevant both in solo play as it is in grouped content. In regards to party positioning, the tank is naturally situated on the opposite side of where DPS and healer classes are supposed to stay in order to grant combat advantage and redirect targeted AoEs from bosses away from the rest of the party. 10% less incoming damage isn't in any way worth the risk of getting hit by the heavy hits meant for a tank class by anyone else in the party, nor denying damage alltogether with a reactive dodge/run outside of the hit area. It makes more sense to unbind the tab key to avoid using it than losing 600 divinity for no real reason. In its place I would love to see implemented something like the 5th edition paladin feature "Avenging Angel", with radiant wings sprouting from the back of the paladin and a mechanic that could give him an hard taunt for 10 seconds, a 10% damage debuff in a 20' radius and a movement bonus due to the mobility granted by his celestial wings. At a cost off 500 divinity a similar mechanic could be worth using in dire situations where aggro management or the tide of battle would request. Plus side: which paladin player wouldn't want to appear as an angelic champion of his deity?

    DPS wise to solo content, the one above seems to be the least slow spec for a justicar. Naturally it's not meant to maximize the tank role in parties, where many powers and feats would need to be swapped for increased aggro management, higher stamina regeneration and, situationally, secondary healing to support the healer. Anyways it's still very hard to progress with an acceptable pace when compared to every other class, in consideration that paladins are the only ones that don't sport a DPS paragon path. I'll withold any feedback on Oathkeeper till the loadout bugs will be fixed in the future.

    Thanks for the feedback! I'd highly, highly recommend swapping out bane or smite for another power when soloing, based on whether you're fighting packs of enemies in groups of 3 or less.

    Taking two spenders is really not a great idea in most cases, it can be okay in some group environments, but in solo play, it can be much more beneficial to take powers like burning light or sacred weapon. The latter is quite good damage, especially in AoE situations where it hits on all applications, so you can use radiant strike (which is an AoE) and apply the flat damage of sacred weapon to all enemies in the area.

    Burning Light may seem low, but it is up often and costs no divinity. For single target, once you have access, Relentless Avenger also makes a good choice. Try out a few other powers, and let me know what you think.

    That being said, I do hear the feedback—people are not a fan of all the blocking, just to regain divinity. So, I will be closely examining the power choices available to Paladin, and the feats, with a focus on providing combat styles with different more varied pacing.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Paladins have no capacity to tank in Mod 16. Their Judge build, which I used for campaigns and solo tasks like dailies or weeklies, have been stripped from them. They're left with no ability to tank, even with my azures slotted in for defense slots, and no ability to do damage in solo tasks or campaigns. They're left as the most useless class in the game in the new build. There is no point to having a paladin in the new Mod. I'm left drinking healing potions, just as much as my Trickster Rogue currently does, to try to stay alive. It is impossible to tank now using a paladin.

    Hello! I'm sorry to hear that you haven't been able to tank on your Paladin on preview. I appreciate you taking the time to check out the changes on preview and provide your feedback, in spite of your frustrations.

    First let me say that, Vow of Enmity and Divine Challenger are bugged, so if you were relying on these to obtain threat, I apologize. Secondly, this week will feature a small buff to threat generation. With that said, you may need to adjust your equipment and enchantments to be a bit more defensive if you're having trouble surviving in group situations.

    However, Paladin is very capable of tanking right now. There are certainly some problems with the class, but you can go find video evidence of Paladins tanking on preview, and I've also been tanking as a Paladin in many of our internal playtests. We'll be working to ensure that Paladin has a strong spot in any party roster in time for Module 16's launch, I assure you. So please continue to check back over the coming weeks for changes.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    I have one fairly big complaint over the new Paladin paragons...

    In every game I have ever played, Paladins were paladins because they could do healing and tanking - this is still true... however, the absolutely most iconic ability of every Paladin was simple: Lay on Hands. No matter how you specced, what paths you picked, etc, ALL Paladins could LoH. It is so iconic, that, to me (and probably several others), the character can NOT possibly be a Paladin if they cannot LoH.

    Yet, that is exactly what you have chosen to do? To take the most identifying staple of being a Paladin, and put it solely within the Healer side of the class... Sorry, but, that makes the Paladin nothing more than a Fighter who happened to pick up a few tricks from the Cleric. 18 Fighter/2 Cleric is not a Paladin. Paladins have Lay on Hands. They didn't just learn how to heal, they are gifted, blessed, imbued by their deities to do certain things that Clerics cannot do, or even attempt to do, and the epitome of that is LoH.

    Without it, it isn't a Paladin.

    Thanks for taking the time to check out the changes on preview, and write up your thoughts. I certainly appreciate them. For me, I've also played a lot of games with Paladins, and played just as many where a Lay on Hands style power does not make an appearance.

    That being said, I understand that to you, Lay on Hands has a symbolic significance. I also understand that Lay on Hands is a significant component of the Paladin's base kit in D&D. Powers in Neverwinter obviously are inspired by the source material, but rebuilt to work in the context of an MMO. Lay on Hands as it is in Neverwinter, is much more powerful than the version of Lay on Hands Paladins have access to in pen and paper D&D.

    In terms of a basic healing power, both Paladin paragon paths do have access to Divine Touch. At a conceptual level, if you're just looking for the ability to heal as a Justicar, you do have that option.

    Are you mostly frustrated with not having access to the spell of that name, or were you specifically frustrated not having access to the effect of the current Lay on Hands as a tank?
    It's not really a frustration. It is a key part. Without it, it isn't even a paladin, to me, anymore. I understand that most paladin players did not use LoH, but I kept it slotted, as a tank, from the first time I got it. The ability to spend however much of my AP I needed, to heal back to full life? As a tank, that ability was more important than any other daily I had. I believe that this is the path you guys seem to want paladins to follow, as they are the only class in the new style without a DPS role of any sort (just Tank and Healer), right?

    So, having dailies that allow me to do more DPS? Not something I care about unless I am fighting trash that isn't a concern to begin with, and all we are trying to do is clear it faster. But, on bosses or other tough stuff? It's far more important to have a full-heal for when things go bad: the healer dies or runs out of ability to heal and needs time, etc. It isn't used all the time like an actual heal, it's a split-second game changer, and is what sets a paladin apart from the other tanks. You can slap graphics on whatever abilities (change the names, etc), and think that makes them different, but without that ability, a paladin is pretty much just a fighter who dipped his toe into divinity.

    For example, the dailies of the 3 tanks... one of these looks, feels, acts 100% different than the other two, who, without actually KNOWING those abilities would be indistinguishable enough that most players would not know who those abilities actually belong to. I will remove the names, and just give the descriptions, to show what I mean.

    Daily Power: Decreases damage taken by 30% and deal physical damage to attackers whenever you take damage. 10s.
    Daily Power: Smash the ground, causing the earth to temporarily shake beneath you, damaging the enemies around you. Enemies have a chance to stumble and fall down during this attack.
    Daily Power: Increases your maximum HP by 20%, restores the amount increased, and increases damage dealt by 10%. 12s
    Daily Power: Redirects all damage that would be dealt to the nearest ally to you. 12s
    Daily Power: You gain immunity to most control effects and erect a barrier around you decreasing the damage taken by allies within by 20%. 14s
    Daily Power: Pummel your target with two attacks, knocking them away.

    Without looking at the charts of abilities, and only looking at this list, most people would not know which ones were the Fighter's, and which were the Paladin's. They would almost certainly know which belonged to the Barbarian, though. Why? Because they actually have a different feel, a different thought and approach. You could take the Fighter and Paladin ones and exchange them, and no one would really know the difference, overall.

    The one that redirects all damage from the nearest ally to the tank? That could be a divine thing, or it could just be the fighter throwing himself in front of the attack to take it for them. The first one... is that some form of divine protection and retribution or something the fighter is doing? Sadly, the 3rd one could actually belong to a Barbarian tank, as it is right up there with their rage-mechanic, but, the other Barbarian dailies are so very obvious, that we know it doesn't belong to them... but, could easily belong to either of the other 2, since it, like the other 3, lacks enough flavor to make it decidedly different from the other class.

    Now, Let me post LoH. If it was listed in with the others, would there be ANY player that would say it belonged to any tank aside from Paladin?

    Daily Power: Heal target ally or self to their maximum HP. Remove all negative status effects from target.

    It is so obviously NOT Fighter or Barbarian, in the exact same way that smashing the ground or pummeling a target brutally is a Barbarian's flavor. It isn't frustration, it is confusion that the new style is to make a Paladin the only non-DPS class, yet make the tank path for it indistinguishable from the Fighter tank path, yet let the Barbarian be entirely different? I mean, look at the tank mechanics themselves: Paladin and fighter both have the exact same ability that lowers DPS by X% (just different names), while increasing threat; but Barbarian doesn't have that mechanic at all. Result? Paladin and Fighter play pretty much the exact same, just look different; the Barbarian tank requires playing differently, thinking differently - which is how the other two should be, too.

    Paladins need to be divine, which LoH is a major part of that. They tank by being able to heal, divinely protect (like a circle of protection or something). Fighters are more about tactics, it is what sets them apart from Barbs (they actually think and strategize) and apart from Pallies (they put their faith in their skills and talents, not in a deity), so their stuff should reflect that. The three tanks should honestly play and feel completely alien to each other... and, I am not seeing that so far with Paladins vs Fighters.
    Hi Shadoewrayth! Thanks for clarifying your feelings, it sounds like you weren't talking about Lay on Hands specifically as it relates to pen and paper D&D. I appreciate your candor and passion for this power, and I'll definitely think long and hard about whether it will be appropriate for the tank kit to have access to such a powerful heal.

    That being said, you made a point about Barbarian's dailies, and I would like to say that, all of Barbarian's tank dailies are changing. They currently have no mitigative abilities, and as a result are at a large disadvantage defensively. I recently took over Barbarian and am working hard to get the class in a good place.

    The Barbarian's new dailies are being built with the unique flavor of Barbarian in mind, and I do understand your feelings about Paladin's dailies as they relate to the Fighter's dailies. I do appreciate the perspective.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    emilemo said:

    asterdahl said:

    emilemo said:

    I see a lot of vague comments made here by the sole dev responsible for both developing and seemingly also for community management. "Some zones/areas/maps/instances are not yet balanced to accommodate the class changes."

    Well, what exactly are we testing then? Cause my super tank (super meaning something very weak, like a newborn chicken) was just insta killed in one of the portals in Castle Never. You know the 5 portals, where the mobs are so weak on Live you 1shot them before they even reach you. Ye,s those killed my 18k Justicar. Awesome! So, what are we testing @asterdahl ? We cant properly test anything if we dont know where to test, where are things wai?

    I'll tell you what you're testing. You're testing to see how much you can push this bs build before people start screaming and name calling and mods would have to step in and delete posts/ban folks. You know how sometimes a company would advertise an open position and even call candidates over for interviews only to never follow thru with any of them.. That company is simply fishing to see whats in the water. That's what you at Cryptic are doing, you're testing to see how much you can get away with. Well, we'll see about that.

    Hi Emilemo, I understand your frustration, but to be clear—I never suggested that anyone not test anything because it was not working as intended. I have just tried to make it clear that what many are experiencing; such as being unexpectedly one shot in Castle Never, or by a spider in Undermountain, those are bugs.

    These bugs come from various sources, one of the most egregious was related to the chicken companion buffing enemies for instance. Tracking bugs like this down is one of our primary reasons for running a preview server.

    That doesn't mean we want you to stop testing, or stop providing feedback. I just ask that you take your experiences on the preview server with a grain of salt, and realize that if I say "we're not aiming to make things significantly harder," and then you get one shot, that you probably ran into a bug.

    I'm not upset with anyone when they take the time out of their day to come here and provide in-depth feedback around their experiences that involved getting one shotted. It's already a lot to ask to come to the forums and type up your feedback, so I understand not everyone has time to read the other posts, and find out about various issues. And that's okay.

    But if I can at least help people to understand that they're experiencing bugs, and not that Module 16 is being designed to one shot people. Or better yet, if I can help warn a few people about the issues before they run into them, or before they form their thoughts around balance as if the bugs were intentional—I think that saves everyone some time and grief.

    That said, I really would like to personally apologize on behalf of the team for the egregious bugs that are killing people outright unexpectedly or making it impossible or difficult to test some content for feedback. We would very much like to have gone to preview without any of those issues. Neverwinter has been around for a while now, and there are a lot of moving pieces—and we've changed a lot of them. We truly appreciate all of your help.
    I gotta say @asterdahl , I am humbled by your reply. I know my latests posts on this thread are plagued by escalating hostility, I apologize for that and I appreciate you responding despite everything. Being negative or aggressive is definitely not my intention here. You must know, me and other posters, we are only spending time writing stuff because we care to some dregree or another for the game and for our chosen class. I've been with Neverwinter since the begining, Ive left and returned, Ive spent money and I havent and I find myself wishing a long and bright future for the game because after Eso, Wow, GW2 and some othet titles I end up here still.

    That doesnt mean I like what Im seeing on Preview right now, it means I want to like it and you and your team have the power to do something about that. The game needed a hard reset, I agree to that. We on Live have reached such insane power levels that even the strongest monsters and the craziest burst damage you put in cant tickle us. However Im upset because I honestly feel the above mentioned hard reset is hurting some classes much more than others. I will continue to test and give feedback and even if you dont give us better Auras, or better Feats, or better Tab(actually you better give us a better Tab!) I ask that you, at least make sure the Justicar paladin is a capable tank who can hold aggro and survive it for a time. And most of all make the Justicar paladin a unique tank, make him feel special in some way. Give him something that separates him from the rest of the classes/paths who can also block damage, heal and tank. There must be a reason to go Justicar - you understand me I hope - and the reason is simple. The Justicar must be fun to play, must have defining qualities separating him from the rest, making him into his own animal.

    Thats all. Thanks for your time
    Apology accepted. I don't expect anyone to apologize for voicing their thoughts, however hostile their tone may appear, but I do appreciate it nonetheless. I genuinely appreciate all of your feedback. I'm a long time MMO player myself, and I'm no stranger to feeling frustration about changes. I know that in reality it comes from a place of wanting the game that you know and love to continue to be something you can enjoy playing.

    I am absolutely dedicated to making sure Paladin is fun to play and competitive with all other tank and healer classes. I know that, a week long cycle between builds on preview, combined with the fact that from week to week I may have to focus on other changes (this week I was pretty focused on Barbarian and other critical bug fixes) can be a seeming eternity as feedback hangs in the air, but I promise I will be re-examining some of the core issues people are having with the class.

    That said, this week will feature fixes to VoE and Divine Challenger, as well as some overall threat boosts, so give tanking another shot when you can. Players are already using the Paladin tank effectively on preview with this original build, and I know from experience that tanking is possible (and it is probably in a better spot than fighter, and definitely in a better spot than barbarian at the moment.)
  • ananxiousnoob#0947 ananxiousnoob Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    if you persist with these changes then the very least you could do is give us a class reroll which reflects the level we are currently at and the choice of an exchange of gear at existing item levels. I play and enjoy playing a power share OP tank and from what I have seen on videos the tank is no longer a tank.

    I have watched dungeon footage of the mod 16 tank and I no longer want to be that class, it fails at tanking miserably. I have spent a great deal of time and substantial amounts of real life money on getting my OP to where I wanted them which you have in one fell swoop negated. As I said at the start of my post please give class reroll and I do not mean a new class slot.

    Edited to add:-I feel about this so strongly that I joined this forum after playing, with short breaks for years. The recent Devs video said that you were taking feedback. Please take this feedback, You had a happy content customer, who recognises the need for well thought out and implemented change; who recognises and applauds the scope of the huge content drop in Mod 16; but who abhors these game play changes. You have left me as a disgruntled customer.
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