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Official M16: Refinement

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  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Posts: 275Member Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @asterdahl what's your take on overload enchantments ? combat time before disappearing is even more painful than black ice. Kinda sad it's never been looked at because if reworked and without combat time it had potential.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    Not sure if it’s a bug or intentional, but you cannot partly refine items anymore.

    If intentional, I think that’s bad. Especially while you still have to incrementally, Level by Level, improve artefacts.
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  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 117Member Arc User

    Not sure if it’s a bug or intentional, but you cannot partly refine items anymore.

    If intentional, I think that’s bad. Especially while you still have to incrementally, Level by Level, improve artefacts.

    Is possible improving artifacts and enchantments incrementally, but need to remove the "Require Ward to Upgrade" function from option tab. Should consider it still a bug, as you don't actually need a ward to partial refine, but sure not an high priority one.
  • jenmpin#7383 jenmpin Posts: 2Member Arc User
    What about the Tranquil Enchantment ? On preview there is no stats on it in a youtube video I saw. Will it be exchangable also? and for what kind?
  • friedjofffriedjoff Posts: 1Member Arc User
    companion: good idea, right way, but still chulter tiger everywhere.

    Boons: big nerv, sad. Most builds will use same chooice. All the nice Level 5 boons reduced. Sad sad sad

    Claasability: omg... awesome breakdown. No way. Only a few skills, no buffs, no debuffs. Most classes will not be welcome in endcontent groups.

    Many value stuff, pets,... lost or will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

    Intressting Ideas,but a longway to go

    Sad sad sad... I hope for some rerolls
  • venetrix2#1417 venetrix2 Posts: 7Member Arc User

    What about the Tranquil Enchantment ? On preview there is no stats on it in a youtube video I saw. Will it be exchangable also? and for what kind?

    It has no stats now, but can be exchanged at the Antiquities Dealer in Protector's Enclave

    (Up behind the Tyranny of Dragons guys - took me forever to find)
  • jenmpin#7383 jenmpin Posts: 2Member Arc User
    > @"venetrix2#1417" said:
    > What about the Tranquil Enchantment ? On preview there is no stats on it in a youtube video I saw. Will it be exchangable also? and for what kind?
    >
    > It has no stats now, but can be exchanged at the Antiquities Dealer in Protector's Enclave
    >
    > (Up behind the Tyranny of Dragons guys - took me forever to find)

    Ok I thought so but what I am curious about is what kind of enchantement can be traded for single stat /dual/tripple?
  • midental#5256 midental Posts: 110Member Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Sorry wrong.
  • meiramimeirami Posts: 423Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Demonic Enchantment, rank 14 now offers 0 points of Critical Strike instead of 325. Slotting the Demonic Enchantment doesn't increase the critical strike number on the character sheet either.


  • hustin1hustin1 Posts: 3,102Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Home sick with ALLERGIES FROM HELL so I hope this is coherent.

    Don't know if it's possible but I'd urge a close look at how runestones transfer when our current characters appear in Mod 16. On live we can store extra runestones on inactive companions. My main has every companion available except for the Foundry-specific ones and a couple of promo ones. I copied her over to Preview and HOLY MACKEREL -- my inventory was jammed full with partially-refined runestones and my overflow bag had maybe 60 or 70 more. My main dates to early Mod 2 when it was nigh impossible to exactly end refining right at the start of a new rank. The first thing I did was go back to live and get all those runestones to exactly the zero point of the next rank (which cost a small fortune in RP and a large fortune in GMOPs). At least I know of this issue and I can check my other alts for the same problem, but I suspect that a LOT of players will wind up being blind-sided when this goes live. I suspect that you won't need Discord to hear the screaming, you'll be able to just open the window :wink:

    Anyhow, I think it's something to really mull over. It's going to be an issue.
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  • darkheart#6758 darkheart Posts: 274Member Arc User
    > @lordaeolos said:
    > Streak Breaker seems to be broken, I burned 6 stacks of 99 Preservation wards upgrading a rank 14 enchantment to rank 15, at 1% chance the max should be around the equivalent of a Coalescent ward, or these streak breaker values should be published so players know what the risk-reward ratio is

    > @lordaeolos said:
    > Streak Breaker seems to be broken, I burned 6 stacks of 99 Preservation wards upgrading a rank 14 enchantment to rank 15, at 1% chance the max should be around the equivalent of a Coalescent ward, or these streak breaker values should be published so players know what the risk-reward ratio is

    What does it take to level enchant from 14 to 15? How many UES, etc.... or did create new stones for this as well.
  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Posts: 441Member Arc User
    > @darkheart#6758 said:
    > What does it take to level enchant from 14 to 15? How many UES, etc.... or did create new stones for this as well.

    65,000 refinement points and 1 Mark of Potency, Rank 7 (new mark), 1% chance.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,945Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Streak Breaker seems to be broken, I burned 6 stacks of 99 Preservation wards upgrading a rank 14 enchantment to rank 15, at 1% chance the max should be around the equivalent of a Coalescent ward, or these streak breaker values should be published so players know what the risk-reward ratio is

    Ah...the max is supposed to be 50% above average, or 150 wards, right? My guess is that the problem is that it exceeds a single stack of 99, so some counter gets reset to 0 after each stack.

    Try something with a 2% chance - the max should kick in at 75 wards.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • thebigshow#8382 thebigshow Posts: 14Member Arc User
    So what is happening with Mounts that have lifesteal or recovery as a stat? E.g Tensor Disc and bat swarm?
  • darkheart#6758 darkheart Posts: 274Member Arc User
    > @mdarkangel#4696 said:
    > > @darkheart#6758 said:
    > > What does it take to level enchant from 14 to 15? How many UES, etc.... or did create new stones for this as well.
    >
    > 65,000 refinement points and 1 Mark of Potency, Rank 7 (new mark), 1% chance.

    Thanks for info
  • noworries#8859 noworries Posts: 520 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    adinosii said:

    Streak Breaker seems to be broken, I burned 6 stacks of 99 Preservation wards upgrading a rank 14 enchantment to rank 15, at 1% chance the max should be around the equivalent of a Coalescent ward, or these streak breaker values should be published so players know what the risk-reward ratio is

    Ah...the max is supposed to be 50% above average, or 150 wards, right? My guess is that the problem is that it exceeds a single stack of 99, so some counter gets reset to 0 after each stack.

    Try something with a 2% chance - the max should kick in at 75 wards.
    The streak breaker is 150 for a rank 14 to 15, the streak breaker is part of the item itself so it should matter that over a single stack was used.

    I will pass on that this happened so someone can take a look.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    adinosii said:

    Streak Breaker seems to be broken, I burned 6 stacks of 99 Preservation wards upgrading a rank 14 enchantment to rank 15, at 1% chance the max should be around the equivalent of a Coalescent ward, or these streak breaker values should be published so players know what the risk-reward ratio is

    Ah...the max is supposed to be 50% above average, or 150 wards, right? My guess is that the problem is that it exceeds a single stack of 99, so some counter gets reset to 0 after each stack.

    Try something with a 2% chance - the max should kick in at 75 wards.
    The streak breaker is 150 for a rank 14 to 15, the streak breaker is part of the item itself so it should matter that over a single stack was used.

    I will pass on that this happened so someone can take a look.
    I feel like streak breaker is way more relevant for lower level upgrades; for me, anytime you're dealing with a 1% chance, you're better off just using a Coal Ward anyway.

    Price level would normally suggest 100 preservation wards = 1 coal ward, but the way coupons work, it's easier to get 1 coal ward at 20% off than 100 preservation wards.

    But for anything with 2 or 3%, that streak breaker is going to be a lot more relevant.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,039Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    The streak breaker is 150 for a rank 14 to 15, the streak breaker is part of the item itself so it should matter that over a single stack was used.

    I asked a while back but maybe you can confirm: Streak Breaker is the same for *all* items of a given type and %upgrade chance? So every single R14 Enchant (of every kind) with 1% upgrade chance has a 150 "Streak Breaker" limit?

    Going lower, every single 90% R2->R3 upgrade might have a Streak Breaker of "3" or "4"? It's not random per-specific-R2-enchant?

    And streak breaker isn't visible to the player, but will stay consistent when an item is given to a new player?
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,945Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    The streak breaker is 150 for a rank 14 to 15, the streak breaker is part of the item itself so it should matter that over a single stack was used.

    Part of the item itself....uhm, OK, but.....

    Let's say you have an item with a 2% upgrade chance. Expected average should be 50 wards, with the streak breaker kicking in at 75, right?

    Now say that you use 70 wards....and then run out of wards. You go and buy 10 more and continue. Will the item "remember" the accumulated number of unsuccessful wards used, so you will not need more than 5 additional ones? Or does the number reset to 0 after each refining "session"?

    What if I give the item to someone else...if they attempt to refine it, will they also only need a max of 5? What about stacking...will enchants with a different number of "accumulated" wards used stack? Can I somehow determine how many wards I have used?

    So many questions....
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • leftbearleftbear Posts: 7Member Arc User
    Bug: When swapping single stat r14 enchants the box gives triple stat enchants, its labeled correctly single stat enchants.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 374Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    mat44444 said:


    Hi

    I find it admirable that you have decided after such large changes to the basic game functions to allow players to trade in and receive an equivalently ranked enchantment of their choice. I do however feel the limits you have placed upon this option very petty to say the least.

    Please explain how the effort (or cost if you prefer) differed for levelling up a one stat, a two stat, or a three stat enchantment. I was under the impression (obviously wrongly given your decision) that each type took the same resources and had the same chance ratings of success.

    I would think if fair not to include your new enchantment within this exchange btw

    I look forward to hearing your reasoning

    My thanks to you in advance

    I belive I can explain that.

    There are at least 2 reasons.

    Firts is a bit "historical" Prviously all 2 or 3 stats enchantments was not as commonly aquired as thay are now. Mosly those were drops from events or CTAs or even a dungeons. Some (ruthless or wicked) are even more rare today (1 of them is ZEN store only I guess). And belive me or not it was not a uncommon thing to see lets say Brutal enchantment rank 7 for 40k AD on AH (or more) while 1 stat enchant was worth 5k. All of it was because old refining system demanded you to have double lower rank enchantments to create a higher level one (2xrank7 for 1 x8, 2xrank8 for 1 rank 9 and so on up to rank 10) that taken together with limited drops made them more expensive. Besides even now you keep getting a 1 stat enchants all the time while multi stats are not dropping that easly.

    Second reason is that for most of classes multi stat enchantments are BIS choice. That is why those are still more expensive on AH. If a radiant rank 14 offers just a 1000 stat points and lets say Black Ice gives 1400 its clear that if you multiply those with number of slots you have on a toon - a difference is huge - never counted that but with bondings in mind I guess I wont be wrong if I say its over 10k of statistic points in total.

    So it was never a issue of upgrade costs - those was same, and are the same now. Just limited drops (not even taking history into consideration) and higher demand makes multistat enchantments more expensive and I belive that was a reason why devs decided to take it that way.

    Besides its still huge thumb up for devs to allow us the exchange.
    And last but not least - with current changes to the game mechanic I wouldnt be so disapointed with having a lot of single stat enchants.... not at all. Those were used for mini max builds right?.... and somehow I belive that minimaxing wont be as obsolete in MOD 16 as it seems now....
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,780Member Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    mat44444 said:


    Hi

    I find it admirable that you have decided after such large changes to the basic game functions to allow players to trade in and receive an equivalently ranked enchantment of their choice. I do however feel the limits you have placed upon this option very petty to say the least.

    Please explain how the effort (or cost if you prefer) differed for levelling up a one stat, a two stat, or a three stat enchantment. I was under the impression (obviously wrongly given your decision) that each type took the same resources and had the same chance ratings of success.

    I would think if fair not to include your new enchantment within this exchange btw

    I look forward to hearing your reasoning

    My thanks to you in advance

    I belive I can explain that.

    There are at least 2 reasons.

    Firts is a bit "historical" Prviously all 2 or 3 stats enchantments was not as commonly aquired as thay are now. Mosly those were drops from events or CTAs or even a dungeons. Some (ruthless or wicked) are even more rare today (1 of them is ZEN store only I guess). And belive me or not it was not a uncommon thing to see lets say Brutal enchantment rank 7 for 40k AD on AH (or more) while 1 stat enchant was worth 5k. All of it was because old refining system demanded you to have double lower rank enchantments to create a higher level one (2xrank7 for 1 x8, 2xrank8 for 1 rank 9 and so on up to rank 10) that taken together with limited drops made them more expensive. Besides even now you keep getting a 1 stat enchants all the time while multi stats are not dropping that easly.

    Second reason is that for most of classes multi stat enchantments are BIS choice. That is why those are still more expensive on AH. If a radiant rank 14 offers just a 1000 stat points and lets say Black Ice gives 1400 its clear that if you multiply those with number of slots you have on a toon - a difference is huge - never counted that but with bondings in mind I guess I wont be wrong if I say its over 10k of statistic points in total.

    So it was never a issue of upgrade costs - those was same, and are the same now. Just limited drops (not even taking history into consideration) and higher demand makes multistat enchantments more expensive and I belive that was a reason why devs decided to take it that way.

    Besides its still huge thumb up for devs to allow us the exchange.
    And last but not least - with current changes to the game mechanic I wouldnt be so disapointed with having a lot of single stat enchants.... not at all. Those were used for mini max builds right?.... and somehow I belive that minimaxing wont be as obsolete in MOD 16 as it seems now....

    My guess is a little simpler: I suspect that it's somehow easier to offer exchange for the same type of enchantment than it is to allow exchange for single->multi-stat and vice versa. If nothing else it makes the menus less chaotic.

    However, I don't think there is a true rationale behind the choice. As others have pointed out, the cost to refine enchants is uniform across the board, and basically all enchantment types have been plentiful for years (with the odd exception like the dual-stat Ruthless Enchantment, recently introduced through a Zen store pack). Black Ice, one of the most versatile enchants, is one of the easiest to acquire since you loot them by the armful in a single 3 minute solo run of KR.

    TL;DR: Limited drops is not an issue, with the aforementioned exception. Ideally we should be allowed to exchange these enchantments freely.
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  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,978Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    adinosii said:

    The streak breaker is 150 for a rank 14 to 15, the streak breaker is part of the item itself so it should matter that over a single stack was used.

    Part of the item itself....uhm, OK, but.....

    Let's say you have an item with a 2% upgrade chance. Expected average should be 50 wards, with the streak breaker kicking in at 75, right?

    Now say that you use 70 wards....and then run out of wards. You go and buy 10 more and continue. Will the item "remember" the accumulated number of unsuccessful wards used, so you will not need more than 5 additional ones? Or does the number reset to 0 after each refining "session"?

    What if I give the item to someone else...if they attempt to refine it, will they also only need a max of 5? What about stacking...will enchants with a different number of "accumulated" wards used stack? Can I somehow determine how many wards I have used?

    So many questions....


    Does the streak breaker tie with each item? i.e. I do item A (all N attempts failed). I do item B (success or fail does not matter). Back to item A, will item A remember the streak?

    Or, the streak breaker tie with the refinement session? i.e. all the streak lose after you exit the initial refinement window.

    Or, something else.

  • noworries#8859 noworries Posts: 520 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer


    Does the streak breaker tie with each item? i.e. I do item A (all N attempts failed). I do item B (success or fail does not matter). Back to item A, will item A remember the streak?

    It is owned by the item itself. So yes, in the scenario typed above, A has the information on how many attempts have been made and what the max number is.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 5,093Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    Does the streak breaker tie with each item? i.e. I do item A (all N attempts failed). I do item B (success or fail does not matter). Back to item A, will item A remember the streak?

    It is owned by the item itself. So yes, in the scenario typed above, A has the information on how many attempts have been made and what the max number is.
    Do you have plans to reduce the price of coalescent wards due to this? If this goes live as is, I will never use a coalescent ward again because statistically even on a 1% chance it is cheaper for me to use preservation wards.
  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Posts: 441Member Arc User
    > @thefabricant said:
    > Do you have plans to reduce the price of coalescent wards due to this? If this goes live as is, I will never use a coalescent ward again because statistically even on a 1% chance it is cheaper for me to use preservation wards.

    I don't think they should come down in price. What you're paying for is the instant upgrade. Using preservation wards is taking the risk that it will upgrade within the price of a coalescent ward. The only difference now is you're guaranteed success at 150 or 151 (not sure if it's at or after 50% above average).

    If anything we may see the price of both wards go up :(
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    Does the streak breaker tie with each item? i.e. I do item A (all N attempts failed). I do item B (success or fail does not matter). Back to item A, will item A remember the streak?

    It is owned by the item itself. So yes, in the scenario typed above, A has the information on how many attempts have been made and what the max number is.
    Do you have plans to reduce the price of coalescent wards due to this? If this goes live as is, I will never use a coalescent ward again because statistically even on a 1% chance it is cheaper for me to use preservation wards.
    I've been thinking about this. Originally I thought that because of coupons, Coal Wards are still the better buy (because 20% off a coal is easier to get than 20% off 100 preservation wards).

    But with a streak breaker at 150, about 1/5 of Preservation Ward based runs with run into the streak breaker. So any cost increase of preservation wards over coal wards due to coupon considerations may not be enough to cover the difference in effectiveness now.
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