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why is GF such a bad tank?

vigor#8801 vigor Member Posts: 196 Arc User
Better question, why is considered a tank at all? My GWF who is approximately the same level is sturdier.

11k item level. I haven't run many dungeons with this char. I know I tanked CN in the past.

Looking through powers, I don't even see anything that would put a dent in the damage I am taking. Even things that appear they might didn't do enough.

Desperate survival +6% deflect? What if I don't have much deflect? 6% of nothing is nothing. Ok, I have some deflect, but it would appear for this to be useful at all I would need a ton of it. And deflect doesn't even stop all damage. And deflect doesn't happen all of the time.

I was getting 1 shotted in CN. That is an intermediate dungeon, which is closer to master of the hunt than something difficult. So, uber deflect might mean getting 1 shotted 50% of the time.

Oh, and that is, even if I can make it to the boss. Those balls are uneffected by my block, I can't shift dodge through them.

I have been in FBI where a 17k item level GF was going down a lot. Now I know why.

Lunging strike (a power I don't have yet) 50% damage resistance for 3 seconds. 9.1 second cooldown. Ok, 50% great! 3 seconds? What good is that? So 32% chance of not being 1 shotted. That is, IF I always use the power the moment it is available, if it doesn't misfire, and if I am not controlled and am, thus, able to use it.

Villain's Menace, 20% damage resistance. A daily power. I am gonna guess this won't charge fast enough, do I need to replace my battlefield medic with an energon? Do I need to train up a sigil of the devoted? It doesn't even say how long it lasts... It is an attack, haven't used it, maybe it is an instant. Maybe that 20% damage resistance lasts 0.0 seconds.

Shield Talent - That sounds promising, what does it do? Guard consumes stamina 20% slower (if I had it power pointed up). That would be helpful I suppose if I want to stand there doing nothing AND IF the shield actually blocked stuff. I generally don't bother to raise it and if I feel I need to, it probably isn't going to stop anything.

Enforced Threat - taunt foes, causing them to attack you. I can take more damage? Shouldn't a tank be doing this?

Fighter's recovery - I can heal myself for ????? amount for ???? minutes. seconds? Great, except healing only works when you aren't getting 1 shotted. And it wouldn't work if I were controlled because I couldn't attack.

Enhanced mark - I can generate 300% more threat. I CAN get killed faster.

Guarded Assault - sounds promising, what does it do? Reflect 5% of your damage back to the attacker, cannot exceed 15% of your max hp. Ok, lets do some math. Someone around here needs to. 15% of 150k is 22,500 hp. That is the maximum amount of damage I can reflect. I only reflect that much when I take 450,000 damage. 5% of 450,000 is 22,500. I guess at least with this equipped I do a little damage as i die. I was getting 1 shotted with this equipped. I assume "reflect" means I don't take that 5% damage.

Side note: Have you ever considered your playtesters might be trolling you? Like, maybe they feed you bad information so that you improve whatever class they want to play while nerfing everything else.

I will continue this tomorrow. Being dead gave me time to inspect my other powers more closely and I didn't see anything in them resembling anything tanky. My HR is a better tank.

Oh, my GF active companion is a battlefield medic. Battlefield medic is bugged. Sometimes it won't heal outside of combat unless you dismiss it and resummon it.

Comments

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    80% DR only helps so much atm. Doesn't compare will with 300k hitpoints and another 300k of shield or temp hitpoints.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,536 Arc User
    I have more or less retired my GF for the same reasons. Not sure what I am doing wrong with it. Tried loads of stuff but still cant really tank FBI+

    I die a LOT in FBI. The shield can be useful if combined with Shield Talent for some boss mobs. And if you stack Stamina you can keep your shield up a long time.

    But generally yes. I cant see how a GF can be that tanky.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,101 Arc User
    I think the primary way GF tanks stay alive is high recovery/AP-gain and frequent Steel Defense procs. That's the only explanation I can come up with when I see good GFs that can comfortably tank FBI uphill or good (maybe suicidal?) GFs run ToNG with KV on.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    GFs are not bad tanks. The issue in current mod is that GFs in group content are not really built to be main tanks. The primary role that GFs are wanted for is buffing, which occurs through recovery and the tact GF line. Since this all goes away in some extent in mod 16, all GFs (including myself) will need to relearn the tank role.

    However, GFs are not bad tanks, even with the current meta. The issue is not knowing the primary weakness of a GF as say an OP. GFs are more positional in their tanking, than say an OP. Moreover, KV will absorb 50% of the damage, which means the GF will need to be aware of what the other players are doing at all times. This takes...skill. Because if a GF player goes up the hill with 3 dps players and 1 healer in FBI, and the 3 dps players stand in red and get whacked in the rear by the orcs, and get hit in the front by the bears, and stand in the red from the giants rock toss, guess who takes 50% of that damage at the same time? Who might be out of guard or moving or attacking.

    Here is how I solve this problem, not just in FBI, but in any content:
    1. If dps people run ahead and expect me to keep them alive while they try and solo it, I quit the group. I won't teach or put up with stupid.
    2. I check for preparedness of the dungeon. For FBI, I check the Black Ice resistance of the dps members before FBI (if random). If each does not have 35%, I quit. It shows 2 things: they haven't done the campaign and are unprepared for the dungeon, and I will take a craptonne of damage if I run KV.
    3. On entry to any enemy group, I taunt and mark the enemy that is the most dangerous to my own KV damage. In FBI this is...the bears. Then the orcs who swing from behind, then the giants. With my taunt mark, the dps can focus on them, while I kite the giants to one side with aggro (ET or something). Having a CW run a control on the orcs is very helpful, since the bears can be burned down before the orcs come out of the control. Frozen orcs don't do the tank damage...just remember that.
    4. I don't pull the whole of the group and cluster them. This is mass suicide, unless you have 1-2 CWs who can freeze them all. But, the giants don't like to be clustered. For example, in mSP I use the first few groups to test the dps burn and decide whether to start pulling big. If the dps group is good enough, I pull the whole bottom floor of mSP for some exciting mob action (even without an OP). There is NOTHING wrong with pulling smaller groups. Killing a smaller group and everyone living is better than pulling a massive group and everyone dying and running back 1 by 1 to re-engage and continue the pain.
    5. I time the known attacks and position accordingly. In FBI, I time the red circles so that I can quickly taunt a giant as he is prepping to charge and toss, so that when he puts the red circle under me, no other dps is in the area. A good example of this is after the 2nd group, there is only 1 giant and a group of orcs. I approach on the right, taunt the giant, he charges and tosses. As soon as he marks the ground with the circle, I go to the group of orcs, and mark them with ET. DPS and such are already there, but the giant and the toss is not a problem. Orcs burn before giant comes back. Then all focus giant.
    6. I also have very high movement. I do not stand in front of an enemy and take the hits, even with shield up. I prefer to side step and reposition. If you stand in one place, the mob will surround you and hit you where the shield does not cover you. But then trying to reposition while surrounded is already an issue because of freedom of space to move. So, I do not let myself get caught in that kind of scenario. This has happened since...oh about...mod 3-4, when the devs decided to spread out the mobs and cause their movement to keep expanding out. I do not remember the exact mod, but mobs will continually try to spread out and move to the sides. For an OP, this is fine with a 360 shield. For a GF, nope.

    Position, timing and movement.

    Using this method, I have duo-ed the climb of fbi with a 13k CW.
    Post edited by checkmatein3 on
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

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  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    For any primary tanking role, my current mod 15 setup is vanilla to the core:

    Dailies are VM and FR (I only swap out VM for single target daily on a boss with no adds).
    At wills are WMS and Tide of Iron. I don't use cleave and I rarely use stab, because both get me out of position (can expose the back of my GF)
    Encounters are ET, ITF, and KV. I only trade out KV on single target bosses with CS, where I can hold the aggro and provide the buff. Otherwise, I just keep ET in. Rarely do I use knee breaker in tank mode.

    I never use Lunging Strike because its a distance strike (which I don't need). I can just aggro with taunt, and more importantly, its ending position is very bad for the GF. You sometimes lunge through or to the side of the target out of position, and this opens you up immediately to the counter attack unguarded. So, LS is a no for me. As is any encounter that puts me out of position.

    Classes passives are Steel Grace and Enhanced Mark. I don't like using Steel Defense except for k-team, when I am scaled to min TIL anyway. Steel grace is about the speed. The rest I don't care about. Marking is for adding damage with my mark. Thus ET + enhanced mark = good dmg for the dps and good aggro for me. Max number can be ET marked though, so be careful.

    OH artifact bonus is also the enhanced mark extra damage, and I run war boar (active not summoned), for even more damage by mark. This keeps aggro on me in the face of all those uber dpses.

    Mount bonuses: Artificer's Persuasion, Shepherd's Devotion, Gladiator's Guile, Assassin's Covenant, and Comraderie ??? (the one that stacks 3x). These will change next mod, but I never change any of these.

    I only run Elven Battle. Why? Freedom of movement and the massive stamina gain. I don't need to do more dps nor will stacking more defense or incoming healing help in mod 15 (negation), and I don't need more recovery to stack IL from ITF proc. elven battles gives me the freedom to recover after a misjudged timing. A giant runs me over in FBI; the Elven Battle lets me get up and out of the red circle before the boulder is tossed.

    I only share this with caution, because mod 16 is going to change almost everything above.
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • manipulosmanipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    Good advice about not worrying over stamina. I found that I have a greater chance running out of stamina as Conqueror spec because I'm trying to get/keep stacks of Shield Warrior's Wrath all the time. I still rarely run out.
  • wisper2048wisper2048 Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    The tanking will change greatly in mod16 and as I understand, the guard mechanics will be the same for OP and GF. So they will be difficult to play both, and there is GWF tank queuing coming.

    There will be also a big reset of skills. Hopefully, among 5 paragon-specific encounters there will be something that will help tanking for all tank classes.

    So why getting into the theory is possible, the gains from it will be short lived.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    The response in this thread is a perfect example of why giving advice and trying to help in the game is essentially worthless. A complaint is raised that a class cannot do something. Responses are given that agree but think there is a solution. Then pertinent and sound advice on how to play is given, and the only response is...you are just 19.3k. It doesn't apply to me. That is absolute HAMSTER.

    Learning is all part of the game. Finding real friends who are patient with you is part of the game. If your current friends won't help, find more friends. Or different friends. There may be a quick path to the top level so that you can queue for things, skipping content and such, but there is NO substitute for doing it all. There is knowledge of what is going on and how to prepare.

    With mod 16 coming, the whole class is changing, so all the advice here (especially movement and shield) might be different. The tankiness of the GF is said to be increasing or becoming a prime choice, for which I am very very excited (not this excited at the possibility since I joined Neverwinter in 2013). Old memories of tanky tank GFs in PvE are returning.

    But until then, I repeat my advice:
    1. Position, mark, shield, watch, move
    2. Use anything for GF that helps you position, mark, shield, watch, move
    3. Practice in campaigns on those things.
    4. Find better friends.

    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends




  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,103 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    I don't even know GF is considered a bad tank. What I know is the GF I went with did good tanking in FBI, CN, etc. No, they are not 19K because we did that when 15K was considered max. We were not max. I personally don't play GF. Hence, I don't know their mechanic or build but what I know is when there is a GF facing a boss, we usually have an easy ride.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,536 Arc User

    I don't even know GF is considered a bad tank. What I know is the GF I went with did good tanking in FBI, CN, etc. No, they are not 19K because we did that when 15K was considered max. We were not max. I personally don't play GF. Hence, I don't know their mechanic but what I know is when there is a GF facing a boss, we usually have an easy ride.

    When its a single boss very much so. I can stand with shield up and drop it occasionally if my timing is good and all is hunky dory. I have shield face-palmed the big turtle thing in FBI as a 15k GF with no real problems. Same with Orcus in CN.

    But oh my word the hill climb in FBI is just another level. I have practiced solo on the first group of mobs maybe 20 times and still cant stay alive very long. It is clearly doable, I just need more practice in the positioning and timing.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,536 Arc User
    And also the Tank gets all the blame. Abuse. Criticism. Moaned at. Blamed for wipes.

    Many's the time I have left a group after being scorned by DPSers who run into red circles and blame me for not keeping them alive.

    GF tanking is a very skilled art, which is frankly beyond my dexterity and capability :)

    Also its not easy for me on a keyboard to hold down shift and strafe left and right
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,536 Arc User
    So my advice is to solo queue FBI and practice on the first group of mobs to see how long you can stay alive.
  • micheal1979micheal1979 Member Posts: 103 Arc User
    Some of the best groups in game now have gf tank and buff at same time with a devo paladin buffing, yes this changes in mod 16 as we get to explore Neverwinter 2. However I tank all content on my gf tank but I do admittedly sit at 18k il. However I was main tanking all content at 16k as well. As far as fbi, trying to tank it at 11k is a waste of time unless you got some really overgeared players helping and you really, really know your class.
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  • dsn1118dsn1118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 682 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    I am playing this game as a GF since mod5. I learned proper tanking at mod 6. I can clearly say GF tank is a hard thing to do but that sweat coming down from my a** while tanking makes it fun to play GF as a tank and I think GF tank doesnot depend ilevel as much as other classes. Yes you can facetank simple dungeons when you are BIS but endgame dungeons becomes hell even if you have BIS character unless you can manage Gf mechanics. Some mechanics you should be aware:

    1. Never get in the middle of the mobs because GF needs its shield to survive and that shield doesnot give 360degree protection
    2. Dont let your teammates fight behind you when you have KV on because damage you get from behind you gets extra multiplier. Circle behind the mobs if your teammates insist on fighting where they stand so you can face your teammates.
    3. Watch out for red zones
    4. Dont try to facetank everything if you havent build your character around stamina gain/AP gain. You will run out stamina while trying to facetank some bosses (like Orcus) then no more shield to negate the damage
    5. Most GF players doesnot like to run with this powers but I like having Fighter's Recovery(AP gain at 4 is for this)+Guarded Assault because I can stay alive even if my healer is a cyclops and cant manage to land AOE heals(Yes I saw some DCs who couldnot land AOE heals where it needed)


    These were some of my knowledge I gained when I played as a turtle tank GF. There maybe some other players who might do things other ways or better ways.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    GF might be harder than OP (at the moment) but it isn't a bad tank
    1. use your shield - 80% damage reduction
    2. fighters recovery - dont wait until you HP is super low, with good AP gain you can keep this up almost 100% on the hill climb in FBI or any other areas where you are taking heaps of damage
    3. position, position, position - after you taunt enemies, run past them and turn them away from DPS - this keeps the DPS in front of you as well
    4. the hill climb in FBI is the hardest tank in the game imo (for a GF anyway) cause those mobs are always getting around behind you and the giants and bears hit for lots of damage. Movement is the key here (well used to be prior to M16) and CC resist - I run chicken and Sylph here as actives for the movement and CC resists bonuses
    5. enhanced mark helps you keep aggro
    tbh for most . . . . . all of the current M15 content you can just pop FR and not have to worry about anything other than keeping aggro


  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    My fighter does pretty well, so far. She can survive, and deal decent damages.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    play some pvp as gf, get good, then come back to pve.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,085 Arc User
    manipulos said:

    Good advice about not worrying over stamina. I found that I have a greater chance running out of stamina as Conqueror spec because I'm trying to get/keep stacks of Shield Warrior's Wrath all the time. I still rarely run out.

    theres a piece of gear that applies a dot on you to cap shield warriors wrath
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    CN is still considerably more difficult then other dungeons in its tier. If your shield is up and you feel like you're taking too much damage, strafe a bit to the side or (especially when facing boss) slightly backwards to reposition yourself.

    If you use Tab mechanics to draw aggro and make mobs hurdle towards you from afar you are usually in a better position. I'm not sure if movement actually makes enemies attack slower but that's what it feels like to me. Some mobs are elites or glass cannons, so they can hit a lot harder then others. Once your maxed or enemies are not strong (say in Dread Legion or whatever) that is when most teams try to kill mobs right where they spawn or even pull multiple groups of enemies, but for now it doesn't seem like a good habit if that is what your groups are trying.

    Orcus I think is supposed to be shield up to block his melee attacks, shield down to pop daily (Fighter's Recovery) and/or encounter. It is not very intuitive until you got the muscle memory and are able to anticipate attacks.

    And as already has been said everything is gonna change in Mod 16...
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Fear not in MOD16 no one can tank!
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