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New changes to the Sheild

This change to the sheild which is due to come in has to be the Death of the Gaurdian Fighter as a usuable class. The best ability of the Gaurdian fighter was its ability to sheild and still to do damage whilst standing toe to toe with Boss Mobs. That will end and so dies the TANK. To say that Healers will replace the losses that this new upgrade will bring is laughable, Healing spells and Healing potions are no where near powerful enough.

Comments

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User

    has to be the Death of the Gaurdian Fighter as a usuable class.

    You are right...

    This change to the sheild which is due to come in
    [...]
    The best ability of the Gaurdian fighter was its ability to sheild and still to do damage whilst standing toe to toe with Boss Mobs. That will end and so dies the TANK. To say that Healers will replace the losses that this new upgrade will bring is laughable, Healing spells and Healing potions are no where near powerful enough.

    for the wrong reasons.

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    [paraphrase] "Shield is now total max HP".

    Bowser the Spiked Turtle cries while standing in the unemployment line.

    This raises so many questions.

    At what rate does this shield regenerate?
    Stamina is still a thing?
    Is it affected by temporary HP? [great loophole for theory crafting there]
    Will the shield HP be protected by personal DR? KV's bonus damage? Deflection?
    (Based on prior mechanic, probably not... but we can always hope.)

    Our shield was the best thing we had as a tank (next to KV).

    Now Paladins and GWFs have a shield equal to Fighters?
    Then why would anyone ever want a Fighter?
    Paladins bring a ton of other buffs and bonuses to the table.

    If all we are are tanks, we need to be the BEST tanks, full-stop.

    To be remotely comparable in value to a Paladin in this new system we would need to be THE tanking class with party protecting abilities far above Paladins.

    Fighters Unemployment-line-avoiding Wishlist for Mod 16:
    • Fighter threat rating is the highest of all classes.
    • Fighter hard taunts (Enforced Threat, Tab Mark, Knight's Challenge, Jab) supplant all other aggro sources.
    • KV's internal DR, Fighter personal DR and Deflect are all "upstream" from Fighter's "HP Shield".
    • KV internal DR increased to 50%
    • ITF, Enforced Threat, Shield Slam and Sheld Bash all regenerate "HP shield"
    We need to sweat and HAMSTER threat more then anyone else and have a shield greater then all other classes.
    Otherwise... RIP.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited February 2019

    [paraphrase] "Shield is now total max HP".

    Bowser the Spiked Turtle cries while standing in the unemployment line.

    This raises so many questions.

    At what rate does this shield regenerate?
    Stamina is still a thing?
    Is it affected by temporary HP? [great loophole for theory crafting there]
    Will the shield HP be protected by personal DR? KV's bonus damage? Deflection?
    (Based on prior mechanic, probably not... but we can always hope.)

    Our shield was the best thing we had as a tank (next to KV).

    Now Paladins and GWFs have a shield equal to Fighters?
    Then why would anyone ever want a Fighter?
    Paladins bring a ton of other buffs and bonuses to the table.

    If all we are are tanks, we need to be the BEST tanks, full-stop.

    To be remotely comparable in value to a Paladin in this new system we would need to be THE tanking class with party protecting abilities far above Paladins.

    Fighters Unemployment-line-avoiding Wishlist for Mod 16:

    • Fighter threat rating is the highest of all classes.
    • Fighter hard taunts (Enforced Threat, Tab Mark, Knight's Challenge, Jab) supplant all other aggro sources.
    • KV's internal DR, Fighter personal DR and Deflect are all "upstream" from Fighter's "HP Shield".
    • KV internal DR increased to 50%
    • ITF, Enforced Threat, Shield Slam and Sheld Bash all regenerate "HP shield"
    We need to sweat and HAMSTER threat more then anyone else and have a shield greater then all other classes.
    Otherwise... RIP.
    I don't play a gf.. I know nothing about gf... but you're coming at this from an angle of knowing what the current classes do and bring to the table. we have no idea what the pally will be like in mod 16.. I'm getting the impression there are no more group buffs.
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User


    I don't play a gf.. I know nothing about gf... but you're coming at this from an angle of knowing what the current classes do and bring to the table. we have no idea what the pally will be like in mod 16.. I'm getting the impression there are no more group buffs.

    The impression is under the assumption that OP now gains the GF's shield, in addition to still having Templar's Wrath for easymodo tanking. While the details are not fully realized, I am worried that enemy damage won't be adjusted to compensate for GFs having only 2x their HP pool to survive 1 million Duumverates or 700k Rasin overhead swings.

    Also, you're not the only one who thinks buffs will be dead, The Colbert Memetegrity report came up with a similar conclusion.



    I would hope buffs are reduced in potency (say, additive instead of multiplicative?), but not completely dead.

    If there are 0 group buffs, then assuming Memetegrity is right about the implied setup being 1 tank/1healer/3DPS, then the DPS selection will have 0 incentive to bring any DPS class besides whoever does the top damage (think of 5x CW of Mod 5, except now it's 3x whatever will do the best damage...).

    Since we assumed nobody brings group buffs... then all classes are judged on their damage output. Anyone that doesn't bring good damage will be a liability, leaving the weaker. While this won't be an issue with perfectly balance... the only way to achieve perfect balance would be for all DPS classes to be exactly the same. We know that that won't be the case, as all classes right now have different ranges of weapon damage.

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    @thefiresidecat said:
    "lol this is honestly a new game they're releasing without actually releasing a new game. Honestly it would be better if they packaged it as a neverwinter 2. it would pick up a lot more new players that way."

    ^This is a great observation.
    If the developer notes and comments are accurate, we will all be learning classes from scratch.
    GF is in jeopardy.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    I was actually feeling like gf is going to win big with the changes and pulled mine out of the hamster shed. op is op, but gwf with a brand new block mechanic sounds nice and clunky with low dps, so the shield changes do seem strange overall...subscribing post.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > I was actually feeling like gf is going to win big with the changes and pulled mine out of the hamster shed. op is op, but gwf with a brand new block mechanic sounds nice and clunky with low dps, so the shield changes do seem strange overall...subscribing post.

    How long will your 200K HP Shield last with KV up tanking Strahd?
    3...2...1...
    About that long. Dead.


    We take KV hits of >200k all the time. That's a paper shield for us.

    True, we still don't know enough, but unless there is some other yet-to-be-revealed special GF tanking power, the shield described is not a nerf...
    it is a neuter.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:

    > I was actually feeling like gf is going to win big with the changes and pulled mine out of the hamster shed. op is op, but gwf with a brand new block mechanic sounds nice and clunky with low dps, so the shield changes do seem strange overall...subscribing post.



    How long will your 200K HP Shield last with KV up tanking Strahd?

    3...2...1...

    About that long. Dead.





    We take KV hits of >200k all the time. That's a paper shield for us.



    True, we still don't know enough, but unless there is some other yet-to-be-revealed special GF tanking power, the shield described is not a nerf...

    it is a neuter.

    as a paladin player i dont expect TW to stay in the game, dmg ranges for enemies nerfed before introducing the old shield mechanic.
    as for GF shield, for all we know it can be better then that of the others, it was written to base upon hp, doesnt mean that the % of hp has to be the same for all classes, or that GF shield doesnt block part of the dmg on top of it having HP.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    > @dread4moor said:
    > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > I was actually feeling like gf is going to win big with the changes and pulled mine out of the hamster shed. op is op, but gwf with a brand new block mechanic sounds nice and clunky with low dps, so the shield changes do seem strange overall...subscribing post.
    >
    > How long will your 200K HP Shield last with KV up tanking Strahd?
    > 3...2...1...
    > About that long. Dead.
    >
    >
    > We take KV hits of >200k all the time. That's a paper shield for us.
    >
    > True, we still don't know enough, but unless there is some other yet-to-be-revealed special GF tanking power, the shield described is not a nerf...
    > it is a neuter.

    the one thing I see getting done correctly with some certainty, only because devs are making it a huge driving point to end the one dps four support meta, is how healing will be a major factor for dc instead of just a residual of dg and exalt. maybe even some "misplaced" virtuous feats. as long as that is in order I think gf will be a 1b(op 1a) or second best tank in the new mod. as it is now on gwf I can take the few jabs from strahd on his initial charge before the tank peels as long as I sword buff in time. on my op I can take anything he throws at me handily as long as I don't slouch, support just makes it easier.

    with the dual role system in place and the removal of the feat trees with the previous intentions of the past two mods; op is looking to tilt slightly in either direction as a tank and healer with the new divinity mechanic, gf to lose dps but improve as a tank and gwf to lose dps and gain the ability to legitimately tank. with the raising of level cap will come some creep in the old zones like barovia. if each of the paragons have only five dual feats to choose from in the new system and new dailies, encounters etc., with the plan to make the paragons even further less alike than they already are, I think(hope) the devs might have slipped up and did a good thing. :^)

    it will come with a price assuredly, and I'm being very optimistic, but I won't rant much more than that as I foresee some eating of crow later, it's also why I'm picking up gf again. I do want to chime in on here and build the discussion to keep gf in good working order. if correct I'll most likely be changing this to my main and switching from dc to cw.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • tgwolftgwolf Member Posts: 468 Arc User
    Really wish the NDA ceasepoint would come faster so we can discuss why your overreacting is ridiculous.

    But by the sound of it no-one here has actually run with or used a Healer before either, which isn't totally surprising as few outside of Veterans even knew how those builds worked and there was little need for one.

    Heals not strong enough huh? My basic, low end is 270k without Crit. and a Crit. heal with my DevOP can hit 1-2mil comfortably.

    With the improvements.. ooh. Gonna be a treat.
  • manipulosmanipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    Since blocking/guard is now tied to Hit Points it would be nice if they fixed the inherent issue with Constitution for (Guardian) Fighters, in that the hit point bonus is granted based on base hit points only. It used to be a meaningful bonus, but now that we get the majority of our hit points from our gear it is ridiculously small relative to total hit points.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    manipulos said:

    Since blocking/guard is now tied to Hit Points it would be nice if they fixed the inherent issue with Constitution for (Guardian) Fighters, in that the hit point bonus is granted based on base hit points only. It used to be a meaningful bonus, but now that we get the majority of our hit points from our gear it is ridiculously small relative to total hit points.

    praise brother, same thing happens to paladin. we even have feat that increases effectiveness of CON but its not all that good.
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Just came back from test server, for what I could play, oh boy oh boy...

    so:

    1) Mark is gone forever. (bye bye ranged pull)
    2) new tab mechanic is Dig In. pretty much a defensive stance toggle where you can block 360° but you cant move and cant attack at all. It seems redundant and clunky. Ok, you're immortal for a while, but if you can't do anything, what's the point?
    3) Block is pretty much like pre mod 4 days. High hitting monsters will eat it away in no time...
    4) Iron Warrior is EVEN WORSE than currently in live. I could not believe that they nerfed an already HAMSTER ability. Guess what it does now? 20% damage reduction. That's it. Nothing else. Stamina regen? Gone. Threat increase? Gone. Temporary HP? Gone. And it has a 21 seconds cooldown with 8 sec duration. My goodness what a HAMSTER of an encounter.
    5) lol @ KV. no longer permanent (10 sec duration of 20+ sec cooldown) and only affects one party member. But hey it transfers 100% damage now.
    6) Spam dailies dailies and dailies, because that's pretty much where the mod 16 gameplay is at. Spam dailies with the AP generation through the roof. BEcause daillies are what actually deal damage and keep you alive. On a positive note, Figher Recovery (renamed to Second Wind) has been buffed, lasts longer and also gives 20% more max hp and heals when used. Tank spec also has a feat that can make it heal party members, which is pretty damn good.
    7) At-wills are pathetic. They're there only to generate AP it seems. See cleave's damage, and have a laugh.
    8) Most encounters are single target. AoE there's only Shield Slam (which is Frontline Surge renamed) for dps spec. Tank spec has Shield Slam and Enforced Threat as AoE....
    9) Weapon Master strike is gone forever with the whole paragon path, Now it's called Dreadnaught, and it has this tab mechanic that makes you eyes RED if you charge up and sacrifice stamina for vengeance. OOooooo red eyes, and +10% damage when you reach half gauge. Yes, you read it right. +10% damage.
    10) Into The Fray only for DPS path, but hey. IT NO LONGER INCREASES DAMAGE HAVE FUN. (but if you slot a passive power, you can make it heal.... around 10% of your HP or so). Also dont even think of keeping it up 100% of the time, because it's gonna be 50% at best.
    11) There would be much more to say, but for now, I am just overwhelmed. This does not look good at all. And from hearing other players in-game, all classes feel pretty much nerfed across the board.

    Captain Pickard, we need your meme pic so hard right now. (Since Cryptic also make Star Trek mmo, right?)
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    Really wish the NDA ceasepoint would come faster so we can discuss why your overreacting is ridiculous.

    But by the sound of it no-one here has actually run with or used a Healer before either, which isn't totally surprising as few outside of Veterans even knew how those builds worked and there was little need for one.

    Heals not strong enough huh? My basic, low end is 270k without Crit. and a Crit. heal with my DevOP can hit 1-2mil comfortably.

    With the improvements.. ooh. Gonna be a treat.

    Now that mod is on preview for public consumption, the biggest issue I was trying to allude to was that GF has no damage and therefore no aggro.

    I can survive just fine with good shield work and dodging. But how am I supposed to hold aggro and do my job as a tank if I have 0 base damage to begin with, in addition to my damage being reduced by 30%?

    (Yes, there is an aggro boost in exchange for my damage loss, but that aggro boost was not enough to offset the loss of damage. I don't know the exact aggro bonus % given from the tank passive, but I would estimate it's only something like 5%).

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    tgwolf said:

    Really wish the NDA ceasepoint would come faster so we can discuss why your overreacting is ridiculous.

    But by the sound of it no-one here has actually run with or used a Healer before either, which isn't totally surprising as few outside of Veterans even knew how those builds worked and there was little need for one.

    Heals not strong enough huh? My basic, low end is 270k without Crit. and a Crit. heal with my DevOP can hit 1-2mil comfortably.

    With the improvements.. ooh. Gonna be a treat.

    Now that mod is on preview for public consumption, the biggest issue I was trying to allude to was that GF has no damage and therefore no aggro.

    I can survive just fine with good shield work and dodging. But how am I supposed to hold aggro and do my job as a tank if I have 0 base damage to begin with, in addition to my damage being reduced by 30%?

    (Yes, there is an aggro boost in exchange for my damage loss, but that aggro boost was not enough to offset the loss of damage. I don't know the exact aggro bonus % given from the tank passive, but I would estimate it's only something like 5%).
    This has been my experience on preview also.
    I thought the shield change would be the most disturbing GF change.
    I was wrong.
    The loss of Tab mark is shocking.
    How the hell are we suppose to grab aggro?

    We now have only one hard taunt (enforced threat) and a few soft threat feats (feated "shield slam", formerly front-line surge and the encounter formerly known as lunging strike).
    Haven't hit LvL 80 yet, so who knows.
    Maybe KV will be the magic threat-builder.

    I am a sad Took.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • skuallpwskuallpw Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Just came back from test server, for what I could play, oh boy oh boy...

    so:

    1) Mark is gone forever. (bye bye ranged pull)
    2) new tab mechanic is Dig In. pretty much a defensive stance toggle where you can block 360° but you cant move and cant attack at all. It seems redundant and clunky. Ok, you're immortal for a while, but if you can't do anything, what's the point?
    3) Block is pretty much like pre mod 4 days. High hitting monsters will eat it away in no time...
    4) Iron Warrior is EVEN WORSE than currently in live. I could not believe that they nerfed an already HAMSTER ability. Guess what it does now? 20% damage reduction. That's it. Nothing else. Stamina regen? Gone. Threat increase? Gone. Temporary HP? Gone. And it has a 21 seconds cooldown with 8 sec duration. My goodness what a HAMSTER of an encounter.
    5) lol @ KV. no longer permanent (10 sec duration of 20+ sec cooldown) and only affects one party member. But hey it transfers 100% damage now.
    6) Spam dailies dailies and dailies, because that's pretty much where the mod 16 gameplay is at. Spam dailies with the AP generation through the roof. BEcause daillies are what actually deal damage and keep you alive. On a positive note, Figher Recovery (renamed to Second Wind) has been buffed, lasts longer and also gives 20% more max hp and heals when used. Tank spec also has a feat that can make it heal party members, which is pretty damn good.
    7) At-wills are pathetic. They're there only to generate AP it seems. See cleave's damage, and have a laugh.
    8) Most encounters are single target. AoE there's only Shield Slam (which is Frontline Surge renamed) for dps spec. Tank spec has Shield Slam and Enforced Threat as AoE....
    9) Weapon Master strike is gone forever with the whole paragon path, Now it's called Dreadnaught, and it has this tab mechanic that makes you eyes RED if you charge up and sacrifice stamina for vengeance. OOooooo red eyes, and +10% damage when you reach half gauge. Yes, you read it right. +10% damage.
    10) Into The Fray only for DPS path, but hey. IT NO LONGER INCREASES DAMAGE HAVE FUN. (but if you slot a passive power, you can make it heal.... around 10% of your HP or so). Also dont even think of keeping it up 100% of the time, because it's gonna be 50% at best.
    11) There would be much more to say, but for now, I am just overwhelmed. This does not look good at all. And from hearing other players in-game, all classes feel pretty much nerfed across the board.

    Captain Pickard, we need your meme pic so hard right now. (Since Cryptic also make Star Trek mmo, right?)

    just wondering if for solo Figther recovery (second wind) and into the fray is good enough to keep u healed on dps path?
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Over the last 2+ years my Playstation Network (PSN) friends list grew from playing NWO. Last week prior to the announcement most of my PSN friends were still playing NWO. Move to yesterday; many are now starting Anthem or ESO.

    I asked some of them why they are no longer playing NWO and many said, tested the update and I'm moving on.

    Most of these players were 17K+. Mod 16 will definitely remove some higher IL players from the game. I have that feeling.

    As for the changes to the Fighter, (GF), this is the only class that I'm actually considering still playing. Though I may keep my CW around. Not 100% sure yet what I plan to do.
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    skuallpw said:


    just wondering if for solo Figther recovery (second wind) and into the fray is good enough to keep u healed on dps path?

    For the little I played on test server (early undermountain), the answer is yes, for solo content.
    Dailies are very powerful on test server right now, and spamming them is pretty much the key to victory. This also happens because AP generation is through the roof, and you'll find yourself casting a daily pretty much at every pack of trash at least.
    The daily that replaced villain's menace (it no longer gives CC immunity and damage increase, but it stuns enemies for 3 seconds) pretty much killed off trash groups in one hit.

    On test preview I am a 15k GF, on live I am 13,5k GF. Just to give you the idea that I'm nowhere close to BiS.

    On the bright side, paladins got hit by the nerf hammer much harder than us, so ironically we may have the last laugh in mod 16 and return as actual main tanks for the content. Though, never say never, playtesting is not over and more changes are on the way.
    Post edited by klangeddin on
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