What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
From reading your previous posts, it seems you and your wife are disinclined to abandon other party members or leave mobs for stragglers to contend with and for that I offer recognition and my personal compliments…
Thank you. You're right: We don't abandon them or leave stragglers to fend for themselves. In fact, we were in a CN last night with an actual new player, which we didn't realize until almost the end of the run. (We used to ask if people were actually new or just a "new" alt, but no one ever responded even when they were actually new. So we stopped asking.) However, this person ended up aggroing all the undead in the dark hall and then failed to turn left to avoid the mobs in the run through the death spheres. We and at least one other member went back for them. They did die twice, and I sent them a tell after the run explaining how to avoid the undead in the dark hall. (Explaining the other path is too hard in text, imo. And I stopped at the doorway where they should have turned left, jumping and moving around to get their attention to no avail. They still ran into the mobs ahead of them, which I found kind of funny.)
All that needs to happen to fix this problem is to increase the RAD from RIQ, RAQ and REQ slightly and disable the levelling queue for characters with 9000+ Item level.
It's mindbogglingly simple, yet the devs seems to be incapable of figuring out this simple solution.
However, doing this would increase the levelling queue wait times dramatically.
... or they could just sort out the downscaling properly because, let's be honest, it's garbage.
What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
Not the same players. Most of the players complaining about AFK are not complaining about Leveling dungeons
What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
Not the same players. Most of the players complaining about AFK are not complaining about Leveling dungeons
That doesn't change the fact that endgame players are stuck between 2 fires, and it's impossible to satisfy both as their desires are the opposite.
Cos they are never ever, (seriously EVER) going to find a way that suits everyone. In leveling dungeons, (particularly CT) certain L70 characters can walk past a monster and it dies, if they forget to dismiss a companion, everything dies. The L70s also move so much faster than their sub 70 compatriots and short of standing still due to boons, enchants, eqpt etc etc, they will always be miles ahead and groaning that "...the spod can't keep up, grumble, grumble..." It's never going to be possible to achieve equity in "who can do what" in a levelling dungeon.
so... how about...
Simply give every sub 70 toon a boost to Movement rate when running with L70s in RLQ to allow them to simply keep up. You can argue all you want about whether it is fair or unfair that some people are carrying others, that is the case in ALL Random Queues, but most keenly observed in Leveling.
Just let them Keep Up with the action, even if they're not massively involved in it.
New Rule (sorry Bill, copyright cheque is in the post... honest) In levelling dungeons ALL toons run at the Movement rate of the highest characters score. Newbs get to stay where the action is, pros don't huff and puff tapping their feet impatiently waiting at the Bosses Door. Once its over, the second the group disbands, you're back to snails pace.
And yes, don't worry GWFs... you're need to be first to everything will be untouched... people wouldn't receive a speed boost when you press your "Tally Ho" button...
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited January 2019
Remove any level 70 from the ability to get levelling dungeons in RQ. By the way, this is not the same as a pre-mod 9 queue system NOR is it the same as queueing for current skirmishes. Here is why:
Pre-mod 9, AD bonus was given based on skirmish, standard dungeon, epic dungeon classifications. So, queueing was a matter of choice on Which dungeon was the fastest...period. The two favored standard dungeons were CT and TOS. CT was overrun with low level bots. So, the dungeon of choice for high level players was TOS. Thus, in order to get dungeons to pop for anything except these two, you needed a sufficient number of players to queue for these dungeons. Thus, you had to match the dungeon for queue to pop. THAT is why it took time. Below level 69, players might queue for different dungeons.
Leveling skirmishes have always been level limited, unlike dungeons. Thus, queueing for skirmishes has a start and stop level (unless part of CTA). So, this adds even more wait for queue time, as you need a sufficient number of players who want that particular skirmish in that level range. Pre-mod 9, level 70s for the daily AD could not get it by queuing for every skirmish.
If under the current RQ system, level 70s are removed from the ability to be placed in leveling dungeons, then the population that runs those dungeons will only be intro level for dungeon up to level 69. The RQ system will match any 3 players to any one of those dungeons for the RQ (since grouping requirements and dungeon choice are not needed). As long as there are 3 people online anywhere on the server up to level 69 queueing, the RQ should pop and place the players in a dungeon that the lowest level player qualifies for, and the others (lvl 69 and below) will be scaled down. Thus, the argument that the wait time will increase is incorrect. If there are not 3 people online under level 70, then Cryptic has a much bigger problem than just what is complained about on this thread.
Why level 70 and not say, level 60? Either one would be fine, although lvl 61-69 does not add the scaling difficulties as much. The issue is that at level 70, the 4th artifact slot opens. and the ability to start most of the campaign content also opens. Pre level 70, the AI, first half of ToD, EE, maze engine, and Sharandar are open. However, it is impossible for a player to focus on boon progression in these campaigns AND not level quickly. Additionally, gear sets for artifact weapons (unless you count the lvl 60 set and actually level it up...a waste), lvl 70 gear sets that have the special functions will not be available. Mount and companion bonuses will depend on the player. Thus, players will have gear choices that are relatively the same below 70 and more easily scalable, no artifact gear sets (practically), minimal access to boons, and finally encounter powers will not be level 4, the final character attribute slot will not be given as well. By removing level 70s from the levelling dungeons, the 'scaling' you ask for will automatically happen without creating the massive delay times for queue as has been posted will happen.
Now, I am not arguing that level 70s should not be able to queue directly for levelling dungeons, but that RQ for level 70s should not include the possibility. Why is this a distinction? As argued, some guilds might have level 70s that want to go very slow and show how a dungeon works, secret areas, whatever. This can be done by direct queue, apart from the RQ. Therefore, the argument that removing the ability of 70s to get levelling dungeons in RQ will require a player always to have a character below 69 is also not true. What it does is remove the level 70 from using levelling dungeons as a means to get AD in RQ, period.
Of course, doing this would require, perhaps, a shifting of AD rewards for level 70, but oh well.
What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
I already mentioned some players are in RLQ just for themselves and don't care about anyone else and some despite being in RLQ for themselves also have the consideration to help out struggling players as they're on their way to the end...
Each player makes their choice about how they behave it's not a fault with the game design or leveling it's how party members feel toward the other members of their party.
Every higher level player has the option to keep with slower players despite their speed enhancements - every higher level player has the option to let lower level players participate despite their higher damage capability. Lower level players usually don't have the option to increase their speed or battle effectiveness and sometimes they can't even communicate even if they want to.
So in my mind it is pretty simple…usually it's more feasible for to higher level players to try to accommodate ( and help) lower level players than it is for lower level players to try to accommodate higher level players – to an extent.
That way lower level players become more effective players, faster, and better at their craft. Of course the same probably can be said if they don’t receive any assistance, but it is likely to take longer so as I see it when higher level more experienced players help less experience low level players they’re actually helping themselves by reducing the number of inexperienced, inadequately skilled and equipped players.
Or some can just keep complaining about lower level players as they struggle to become better on their own...
Cos they are never ever, (seriously EVER) going to find a way that suits everyone. In leveling dungeons, (particularly CT) certain L70 characters can walk past a monster and it dies, if they forget to dismiss a companion, everything dies. The L70s also move so much faster than their sub 70 compatriots and short of standing still due to boons, enchants, eqpt etc etc, they will always be miles ahead and groaning that "...the spod can't keep up, grumble, grumble..." It's never going to be possible to achieve equity in "who can do what" in a levelling dungeon.
so... how about...
Simply give every sub 70 toon a boost to Movement rate when running with L70s in RLQ to allow them to simply keep up. You can argue all you want about whether it is fair or unfair that some people are carrying others, that is the case in ALL Random Queues, but most keenly observed in Leveling.
Just let them Keep Up with the action, even if they're not massively involved in it.
New Rule (sorry Bill, copyright cheque is in the post... honest) In levelling dungeons ALL toons run at the Movement rate of the highest characters score. Newbs get to stay where the action is, pros don't huff and puff tapping their feet impatiently waiting at the Bosses Door. Once its over, the second the group disbands, you're back to snails pace.
And yes, don't worry GWFs... you're need to be first to everything will be untouched... people wouldn't receive a speed boost when you press your "Tally Ho" button...
You're suggesting boosting players who haven't "earned" those boosts. Already you have some higher level players complaining they are "carrying" low level players simply because they are faster and better equipped than lower level players, I imagine the complaint although different would be just as frequent when some players earned their speed and power boosts and others didn't - but get them anyway even if only in a RLQ dungeon...
But that's just a guess.
We could also have it made where every character moves at the rate of the slowest character, which wold be just as effective but I predict it would also generate a whole host of complaints of a different nature. We've already hears some responses to character "nerfing" or "scaling" which in essence is what one of those suggestions are.
I understand both sides of the argument. I’ve only been 70 for a couple of months. When I was leveling I did my best to keep up and silently said Thank You when I got carried. Now, if I see someone is brand new I do my best to hang around and help out. If there are no first-timers it’s pedal to the metal.
Everyone just needs to chill. After all, it’s just a game.
Second, higher TIL players also have full use of other functionalities that the TIL (even though adjusted down) includes: 5x mount bonus effects, 5x companion active bonuses, whatever the companion does, particular piece bonuses, etc.
Third, it is the current random queue system that is forcing (yes, FORCING) high end players into the leveling dungeons. As a high TIL player myself, I consider RQ a mere interruption in my day. Whereas you may be running it for the first time and want to learn it, I am running it for the 1000th time, and only need to do it because RQ stuck me in it for the 9k AD and a few seals.
Fourth, from experience, it is difficult to know (or care) who in the 3 man queue would be serious about learning the dungeon. And in all honesty, no matter how slow some of us go, you will not get the true dungeon experience with us. All I have to do is hit Enforced Threat one time, and any mob or boss is dead.
Fifth, forcing me to take my time to teach a dungeon is not what RANDOM queue is for. Teaching and learning occurs on a foundation of trust, which is usually done in a guild, alliance, or a specialized chat channel (that you can make and invite other players...RQ learning chat...etc) for the solo players.
I disagree with the OP on how to fix. Maxed end game players should not be forced into levelling dungeons by RQ to muster up 9k rAD. That is the solution. Take levelling queues out of the RQ...all of them. This will solve both the auto bot issue and the speed runs by end game players who are annoyed at having to run it again. AND / OR Make levelling dungeons a pre level 70 queue ONLY for the daily AD.
Why play a MMO game that involves dealing with other people if you don't care about the content or other persons in the least. In order for you to get to be that 19.3 Metallic Dragonborn player, you had to start out as a regular player with the lowest stats possible and build up. In that time you had to run dungeons and the story line, Campaigns, and what not. None of which you did by yourself before you could solo. I mean there was a time you had to run up to the door of the dungeon to enter it, and were not allowed to solo said dungeon. You were in the same position as the low level players you say you could care less about now.
What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
I already mentioned some players are in RLQ just for themselves and don't care about anyone else and some despite being in RLQ for themselves also have the consideration to help out struggling players as they're on their way to the end...
Each player makes their choice about how they behave it's not a fault with the game design or leveling it's how party members feel toward the other members of their party.
Every higher level player has the option to keep with slower players despite their speed enhancements - every higher level player has the option to let lower level players participate despite their higher damage capability. Lower level players usually don't have the option to increase their speed or battle effectiveness and sometimes they can't even communicate even if they want to.
So in my mind it is pretty simple…usually it's more feasible for to higher level players to try to accommodate ( and help) lower level players than it is for lower level players to try to accommodate higher level players – to an extent.
That way lower level players become more effective players, faster, and better at their craft. Of course the same probably can be said if they don’t receive any assistance, but it is likely to take longer so as I see it when higher level more experienced players help less experience low level players they’re actually helping themselves by reducing the number of inexperienced, inadequately skilled and equipped players.
Or some can just keep complaining about lower level players as they struggle to become better on their own...
My 2¢
You're ignoring the fact that endgame players "graciously letting lower tier players play", would usually get accused of being bots and AFKing.
I used to let low tier players play, while i just occasionally popped CS and ITF, and just hit those more annoying enemies. Then, both of the lower geared players started chatting about how I'm a bot.
That's when I stopped giving a damn and just ran ahead and murdered everything.
Yet, the post by @h3llbentwisp implies that we should help those players? So there's 3 things we have to do - help players, but not kill everything so they enjoy the game, AND we have to not be AFK, so they get to "enjoy the content"?
WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO. Jumping Jesus Christ on a pogo stick it's impossible to make an agreement with THREE contradicting conditions.
On entrance the maxed toon gets 2 ropes, ropes both newbie toons and drags them along with them. The ropes summon random example dungeon mobs for the newbie toons to fight with the ability to run alongside them for the duration of the dungeon, screaming "omg your damage is just great !!!" every time they get hit.
At the end there are two manditory chests, one normal for the maxed toon, and one that has "now shut up, and take your free AD" hovering above it for the newbies.
Maxed toon gets the achievement "newbie herder" for completing a dungeon without accidently dragging newbies to their deaths in spikepits or off cliffs.
Cos they are never ever, (seriously EVER) going to find a way that suits everyone. In leveling dungeons, (particularly CT) certain L70 characters can walk past a monster and it dies, if they forget to dismiss a companion, everything dies. The L70s also move so much faster than their sub 70 compatriots and short of standing still due to boons, enchants, eqpt etc etc, they will always be miles ahead and groaning that "...the spod can't keep up, grumble, grumble..." It's never going to be possible to achieve equity in "who can do what" in a levelling dungeon.
so... how about...
Simply give every sub 70 toon a boost to Movement rate when running with L70s in RLQ to allow them to simply keep up. You can argue all you want about whether it is fair or unfair that some people are carrying others, that is the case in ALL Random Queues, but most keenly observed in Leveling.
Just let them Keep Up with the action, even if they're not massively involved in it.
New Rule (sorry Bill, copyright cheque is in the post... honest) In levelling dungeons ALL toons run at the Movement rate of the highest characters score. Newbs get to stay where the action is, pros don't huff and puff tapping their feet impatiently waiting at the Bosses Door. Once its over, the second the group disbands, you're back to snails pace.
And yes, don't worry GWFs... you're need to be first to everything will be untouched... people wouldn't receive a speed boost when you press your "Tally Ho" button...
You're suggesting boosting players who haven't "earned" those boosts. Already you have some higher level players complaining they are "carrying" low level players simply because they are faster and better equipped than lower level players, I imagine the complaint although different would be just as frequent when some players earned their speed and power boosts and others didn't - but get them anyway even if only in a RLQ dungeon...
But that's just a guess.
We could also have it made where every character moves at the rate of the slowest character, which wold be just as effective but I predict it would also generate a whole host of complaints of a different nature. We've already hears some responses to character "nerfing" or "scaling" which in essence is what one of those suggestions are.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I rarely do RLQ anymore unless I'm coaching a new guildie, but Goddamit I would happily, gladly, see them get a completely irrelevant short term bump in Movement rate to speed the whole thing up and allow them to feel like they are at least involved, and not have speedsters sitting waiting for slower players to catch up.
The thing about any gated boss dungeon is that no one gets in till the last person gets there.
Are there player who would rather sit and wait at the gate, or stay back to let slower players keep up, (apart from GWFs that is...) than have everyone move together and finish it in 3/4 of the time?
Remember I'm only talking Leveling Dungeons. Not Castle Never, where some players' heads would explode if they couldn't race off on their own. (Mind you it might be nice if you could occasionally throw a leash round those guys in FBI and MSPC. "If You slow down, we'll all finish faster." is like some sort of non sequitur to some folk.) It's not going to stop the big clever L70s from wasting everything with a cough in the general direction of the monsters and proving how great they are. In fact they'll have an audience to see how special they are.
Slowing everyone down would, indeed, do the same job. But why would you even consider it? If Everyone is going to be moving at the same rate it would take some sort of facile moron to insist it was at the slowest rate possible. That's just a silly strawman and lacks logical value.
I might be alone, but I lack the ego needed to get in a tizz over giving a newbie a can of Red Bull to get everyone moving through a one-button slaughter run quickly.
Maybe it would just deny too many people who feel the need to moan about other players ruining their game an easy opportunity?
What I love about this is on one hand people are whining about higher IL players rushing ahead murdering everything in the way, but on the other hand if you let them play, those same players will whine about some 18k players AFKing entire low level dungeons.
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
I already mentioned some players are in RLQ just for themselves and don't care about anyone else and some despite being in RLQ for themselves also have the consideration to help out struggling players as they're on their way to the end...
Each player makes their choice about how they behave it's not a fault with the game design or leveling it's how party members feel toward the other members of their party.
Every higher level player has the option to keep with slower players despite their speed enhancements - every higher level player has the option to let lower level players participate despite their higher damage capability. Lower level players usually don't have the option to increase their speed or battle effectiveness and sometimes they can't even communicate even if they want to.
So in my mind it is pretty simple…usually it's more feasible for to higher level players to try to accommodate ( and help) lower level players than it is for lower level players to try to accommodate higher level players – to an extent.
That way lower level players become more effective players, faster, and better at their craft. Of course the same probably can be said if they don’t receive any assistance, but it is likely to take longer so as I see it when higher level more experienced players help less experience low level players they’re actually helping themselves by reducing the number of inexperienced, inadequately skilled and equipped players.
Or some can just keep complaining about lower level players as they struggle to become better on their own...
My 2¢
You're ignoring the fact that endgame players "graciously letting lower tier players play", would usually get accused of being bots and AFKing.
I used to let low tier players play, while i just occasionally popped CS and ITF, and just hit those more annoying enemies. Then, both of the lower geared players started chatting about how I'm a bot.
That's when I stopped giving a damn and just ran ahead and murdered everything.
Yet, the post by @h3llbentwisp implies that we should help those players? So there's 3 things we have to do - help players, but not kill everything so they enjoy the game, AND we have to not be AFK, so they get to "enjoy the content"?
WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO. Jumping Jesus Christ on a pogo stick it's impossible to make an agreement with THREE contradicting conditions.
Y'all gotta realize that.
"Then, both of the lower geared players started chatting about how I'm a bot."
Did you bother to communicate with them? Piont out the chests or skill nodes that they were about to pass? or traps that they should avoid? Tell them that if they take the path on the left, there is a dead end? Teamwork requires communication.
Cos they are never ever, (seriously EVER) going to find a way that suits everyone. In leveling dungeons, (particularly CT) certain L70 characters can walk past a monster and it dies, if they forget to dismiss a companion, everything dies. The L70s also move so much faster than their sub 70 compatriots and short of standing still due to boons, enchants, eqpt etc etc, they will always be miles ahead and groaning that "...the spod can't keep up, grumble, grumble..." It's never going to be possible to achieve equity in "who can do what" in a levelling dungeon.
so... how about...
Simply give every sub 70 toon a boost to Movement rate when running with L70s in RLQ to allow them to simply keep up. You can argue all you want about whether it is fair or unfair that some people are carrying others, that is the case in ALL Random Queues, but most keenly observed in Leveling.
Just let them Keep Up with the action, even if they're not massively involved in it.
New Rule (sorry Bill, copyright cheque is in the post... honest) In levelling dungeons ALL toons run at the Movement rate of the highest characters score. Newbs get to stay where the action is, pros don't huff and puff tapping their feet impatiently waiting at the Bosses Door. Once its over, the second the group disbands, you're back to snails pace.
And yes, don't worry GWFs... you're need to be first to everything will be untouched... people wouldn't receive a speed boost when you press your "Tally Ho" button...
You're suggesting boosting players who haven't "earned" those boosts. Already you have some higher level players complaining they are "carrying" low level players simply because they are faster and better equipped than lower level players, I imagine the complaint although different would be just as frequent when some players earned their speed and power boosts and others didn't - but get them anyway even if only in a RLQ dungeon...
But that's just a guess.
We could also have it made where every character moves at the rate of the slowest character, which wold be just as effective but I predict it would also generate a whole host of complaints of a different nature. We've already hears some responses to character "nerfing" or "scaling" which in essence is what one of those suggestions are.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I rarely do RLQ anymore unless I'm coaching a new guildie, but Goddamit I would happily, gladly, see them get a completely irrelevant short term bump in Movement rate to speed the whole thing up and allow them to feel like they are at least involved, and not have speedsters sitting waiting for slower players to catch up.
The thing about any gated boss dungeon is that no one gets in till the last person gets there.
Are there player who would rather sit and wait at the gate, or stay back to let slower players keep up, (apart from GWFs that is...) than have everyone move together and finish it in 3/4 of the time?
Remember I'm only talking Leveling Dungeons. Not Castle Never, where some players' heads would explode if they couldn't race off on their own. (Mind you it might be nice if you could occasionally throw a leash round those guys in FBI and MSPC. "If You slow down, we'll all finish faster." is like some sort of non sequitur to some folk.) It's not going to stop the big clever L70s from wasting everything with a cough in the general direction of the monsters and proving how great they are. In fact they'll have an audience to see how special they are.
Slowing everyone down would, indeed, do the same job. But why would you even consider it? If Everyone is going to be moving at the same rate it would take some sort of facile moron to insist it was at the slowest rate possible. That's just a silly strawman and lacks logical value.
I might be alone, but I lack the ego needed to get in a tizz over giving a newbie a can of Red Bull to get everyone moving through a one-button slaughter run quickly.
Maybe it would just deny too many people who feel the need to moan about other players ruining their game an easy opportunity?
Yes, there are players that would rather sit at the gate than run with the slowest member of the group. Usually chatting "encouragement." "You guys suck!" "Get your Hamster in gear!" "OMG you HAMSTER newbz are HAMSTERing HAMSTER useless!" At players that are unable to communicate yet.
"Tragedy, for me, is not a conflict between right and wrong, but between two different kinds of right."
Peter Shaffer
No idea what my toon is now.
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rybsyngoniumMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 22Arc User
I have been watching this topic for some time because I think it is important for the community, and I am not sure if we all understand it correctly. Also that is why it is a pity that no one from community managers or game designers comment on this topic. I would like to know what was the intention to create Leveling Queue. Which interlocutor is closer to the "truth". Community will always be divided and that is why we need some game moderators.
[Please forgive me any language mistakes as English is not my native language and I will try to write about some difficult things. And forgive me long post too .]
I wanted to answer to @gromovnipljesak#8234 's last post but I realized that it could be unnecessarily personally received. And although the question in that post was asked in a certain anger (at least that's how I fell it), it's justifiable. But do not get me wrong, I'm in total opposition to what @gromovnipljesak#8234 (and others thinking like him) says and much closer to the @dionchi 's statements. But again, question is justifable.
Question is: What do you want us to do (in Leveling Dungeons when we are high ilvls)? (do not like BIS or elitist wording here in this forum). To answer it, let's remind what this thread is about. OP shared her/his feelings about some dungeon runs when he/she is on certain position/level in game. Thank you @justicesupreme for that. I bet you would like to make this game better. Me too, so that is why I decided to write this post after many years of playing. However, many posters do not even try to understand it and instead give "solutions" that can be summarized: agree with what we do because it is our right to do this - we need some fast AD so ..., or: create your own party and do it on your own way, or: if you do not like this do not do this queue until you will be on "appropriate" level and you will be able to do the same and other queues. Some more polite say: I wait politely until others finish - read: afk on beginnig or on boss entry. Hmm. I will refer to these statements later. (yes, there are also voices with which I agree more or less and which I have temporarily omitted in this summary)
What the Leveling Queue really is? Is not that it should be called Exercise/Training Queue rather? Ah yes, you are right, there are not all dungeons and skirmishes available to exercise. And yes, you are right again, you can pick up any dungeon/skirmish directly to train. What is the problem then? Astral diamonds of course. People who levels have right to earn some ADs during "leveling", along the way of doing everyday content - it means when they LEARN. And I put leveling in quotes because leveling is not only to get 70th lvl. This is the process, including doing some campaigns for boons - those "easiest" campaigns at least, what takes 1-2 months - it depends how player is willing and able to play. (I hope this thread will not decrease the willingness of many of new players). To paraphrase @gromovnipljesak#8234 , "Y'all gotta realize" two things. We can't demand from new players to have companions, enchantments, insignia bonuses, bondings, etc. (even green/low level items) when they are not able to get some decent value of ADs. And we can't demand that new players will know their toons, other classes and team cooperation (not to mention the bosses) mechanics if they are not doing dungeons in a proper way - it means they do not participate in fights in decent way. Those two above are common advices on other posts in a forum! And when someone says he/she have a problem to get to the point we advice he/she gets simple: go away.
Going back to the point. That's why I would prefer the easiest queue to be called Exercise Queue because that is(should be) the place where new players should be able to learn at least: own toon mechanics - obviously other classes mechanics - they should learn how it is important team cooperation - comes from two above
Nowdays we have many more campaings in NW that it was few years ago. It demands a lot of time to be in line with playerbase. We should not further extend this time with ideas and advice on learning and earning AD with separate activities. So having Leveling Queue "paid" with AD is fine. The problem is we can not do things described above properly - shortly: teaching (some others say "mentoring"). First of all, in most of dungeons if player is not at 70th lvl is not able to choose/check all "correct" powers and feats - thus learn correct rotation. Second, when player is at max lvl things are going too easily in Leveling Queue - we have a huge gap between "underperform" and "overperform". Especially when new players get relatively strong free equipment from Barovia.
To not only complain I will try to write something constructive now.
The easiest way to fix the problem I see, Leveling Queue should choose only one 70lvl toon with two other, lower levels. But you know what, I think it works in that way! Unfortunately sometimes there is not so many low level buddies, that is why we got more 70s in party. And lvl 70 does not mean it is an experienced player!
Second, answering to @gromovnipljesak#8234's question (I do not write directly to you, @gromovnipljesak#8234 ). I will answer by saying what I usually try to do. Play with low level toons. It means do not afk - you are wasting your and their time if they struggled too much with mobs. Be somewhere close to players and help them when you see they have problems (use some power to dimnish mobs health, decrase mobs dmg, increase players dmg!, cure them!). Be close with auras and feats, let them feel and see what is a difference with and without it. Simply position behind boss, even not doing damage - let them learn what that flying numbers mean! (example: When playing with some low level players I check when they are able to decrease boss's health by 20%-40%. If it takes some "long" time - few, several seconds in reality - I position behind boss and ask if they see the difference).
Kindly asking developers, could be nice if we could have some "natural" possibility to mark by new/unexperienced players what kind of run they would like to expect (speed run or with some learning curve) - to not need to ask them all the time if they are new and what they expect.
And yes, I understand some will say: "I need fast AD, do not expect it from me. They can create own party and queue." Well, new, low level player simply can't - because chat is blocked. And even they unlock chat, then we, higher ilvl players, have more friends and guildmates to organize such speed party faster. Now I will say something probably many will dislike. I wish to treat Leveling Queue as Exercise Queue where someone who is participating gets his AD for helping others. That is from 9k to ~15k AD (depends which bonuses we have active) less, which we, higher ilvl players, can easily earn from other queues - or simply having alts (do not waste AD bonus on alts ) and learning non main classes (oh, so many 16+k players need that).
And you can say that there always will be people who have some "bad behavior" so why to bother? That is true. So it could be nice to have some reputation system - how it works in real life. I should be able to say others that someone is not helpful, unpleasant or even rude. After dungeon run (and maybe some other activities, expecially in party) we can give reputation point to other player or vote to decrease it. This should be reserved for special cases - no need to think about it when everything went "normal". Thus it could be some limit like " +20/-20 or +100/-100? I do not expect to have any "monetary" bonus from having high reputation - money destroy ideas. But "monetary" penalty, why not? And some other bonuses like, as an example, higher priority in queue for high reputation (is it needed?) or some chat bans for low reputation could be nice to have and maybe worth to collect it. I think the community can come up with something. Reputation system can help for that all afk-ers as well I believe. Put those all with low reputation in one party and they will afk for each other . Maybe reputation in some few categories? Dreaming And scaming during events (winterfest!). It could be usefull for administrators too. Imagine you can set some low reputation (even normally not possible to achieve) for all who abuse some bug and instead ban them, an account gets possiblity to log in and do some activities but do not get AD or is kicked from zen exchange queue or can not use AH for some period of time?
I know it is easy to say and more difficult to do. I can see how it can be abused by increasing reputation by fake friends and other "bad clans". And what does it mean someone is not helpful or unpleasant?
Sorry for long post once again. But I do this once per few years . I am an old casual player, even very, very casual lately. I can handle issues we have. But there are some they can't. Why not to help them and for all of us as a final result (better educated playerbase)?
> @rybsyngonium said: > I have been watching this topic for some time because I think it is important for the community, and I am not sure if we all understand it correctly. > Also that is why it is a pity that no one from community managers or game designers comment on this topic. I would like to know what was the intention to create Leveling Queue. Which interlocutor is closer to the "truth". Community will always be divided and that is why we need some game moderators. > > [Please forgive me any language mistakes as English is not my native language and I will try to write about some difficult things. And forgive me long post too .] > > > I wanted to answer to @gromovnipljesak#8234 's last post but I realized that it could be unnecessarily personally received. > And although the question in that post was asked in a certain anger (at least that's how I fell it), it's justifiable. > But do not get me wrong, I'm in total opposition to what @gromovnipljesak#8234 (and others thinking like him) says and much closer to the @dionchi 's statements. But again, question is justifable. > > Question is: What do you want us to do (in Leveling Dungeons when we are high ilvls)? (do not like BIS or elitist wording here in this forum). > To answer it, let's remind what this thread is about. OP shared her/his feelings about some dungeon runs when he/she is on certain position/level in game. Thank you @justicesupreme for that. I bet you would like to make this game better. Me too, so that is why I decided to write this post after many years of playing. > However, many posters do not even try to understand it and instead give "solutions" that can be summarized: > agree with what we do because it is our right to do this - we need some fast AD so ..., > or: create your own party and do it on your own way, > or: if you do not like this do not do this queue until you will be on "appropriate" level and you will be able to do the same and other queues. > Some more polite say: I wait politely until others finish - read: afk on beginnig or on boss entry. > Hmm. I will refer to these statements later. (yes, there are also voices with which I agree more or less and which I have temporarily omitted in this summary) > > What the Leveling Queue really is? Is not that it should be called Exercise/Training Queue rather? Ah yes, you are right, there are not all dungeons and skirmishes available to exercise. And yes, you are right again, you can pick up any dungeon/skirmish directly to train. > What is the problem then? Astral diamonds of course. > People who levels have right to earn some ADs during "leveling", along the way of doing everyday content - it means when they LEARN. And I put leveling in quotes because leveling is not only to get 70th lvl. This is the process, including doing some campaigns for boons - those "easiest" campaigns at least, what takes 1-2 months - it depends how player is willing and able to play. (I hope this thread will not decrease the willingness of many of new players). > To paraphrase @gromovnipljesak#8234 , "Y'all gotta realize" two things. We can't demand from new players to have companions, enchantments, insignia bonuses, bondings, etc. (even green/low level items) when they are not able to get some decent value of ADs. And we can't demand that new players will know their toons, other classes and team cooperation (not to mention the bosses) mechanics if they are not doing dungeons in a proper way - it means they do not participate in fights in decent way. > Those two above are common advices on other posts in a forum! And when someone says he/she have a problem to get to the point we advice he/she gets simple: go away. > > Going back to the point. That's why I would prefer the easiest queue to be called Exercise Queue because that is(should be) the place where new players should be able to learn at least: > own toon mechanics - obviously > other classes mechanics - they should learn how it is important > team cooperation - comes from two above > > Nowdays we have many more campaings in NW that it was few years ago. It demands a lot of time to be in line with playerbase. We should not further extend this time with ideas and advice on learning and earning AD with separate activities. So having Leveling Queue "paid" with AD is fine. The problem is we can not do things described above properly - shortly: teaching (some others say "mentoring"). > First of all, in most of dungeons if player is not at 70th lvl is not able to choose/check all "correct" powers and feats - thus learn correct rotation. > Second, when player is at max lvl things are going too easily in Leveling Queue - we have a huge gap between "underperform" and "overperform". Especially when new players get relatively strong free equipment from Barovia. > > To not only complain I will try to write something constructive now. > > The easiest way to fix the problem I see, Leveling Queue should choose only one 70lvl toon with two other, lower levels. But you know what, I think it works in that way! Unfortunately sometimes there is not so many low level buddies, that is why we got more 70s in party. And lvl 70 does not mean it is an experienced player! > > Second, answering to @gromovnipljesak#8234's question (I do not write directly to you, @gromovnipljesak#8234 ). I will answer by saying what I usually try to do. > Play with low level toons. It means do not afk - you are wasting your and their time if they struggled too much with mobs. > Be somewhere close to players and help them when you see they have problems (use some power to dimnish mobs health, decrase mobs dmg, increase players dmg!, cure them!). > Be close with auras and feats, let them feel and see what is a difference with and without it. > Simply position behind boss, even not doing damage - let them learn what that flying numbers mean! (example: When playing with some low level players I check when they are able to decrease boss's health by 20%-40%. If it takes some "long" time - few, several seconds in reality - I position behind boss and ask if they see the difference). > > Kindly asking developers, could be nice if we could have some "natural" possibility to mark by new/unexperienced players what kind of run they would like to expect (speed run or with some learning curve) - to not need to ask them all the time if they are new and what they expect. > > And yes, I understand some will say: "I need fast AD, do not expect it from me. They can create own party and queue." > Well, new, low level player simply can't - because chat is blocked. And even they unlock chat, then we, higher ilvl players, have more friends and guildmates to organize such speed party faster. > Now I will say something probably many will dislike. I wish to treat Leveling Queue as Exercise Queue where someone who is participating gets his AD for helping others. That is from 9k to ~15k AD (depends which bonuses we have active) less, which we, higher ilvl players, can easily earn from other queues - or simply having alts (do not waste AD bonus on alts ) and learning non main classes (oh, so many 16+k players need that). > > And you can say that there always will be people who have some "bad behavior" so why to bother? That is true. So it could be nice to have some reputation system - how it works in real life. I should be able to say others that someone is not helpful, unpleasant or even rude. After dungeon run (and maybe some other activities, expecially in party) we can give reputation point to other player or vote to decrease it. This should be reserved for special cases - no need to think about it when everything went "normal". Thus it could be some limit like " +20/-20 or +100/-100? I do not expect to have any "monetary" bonus from having high reputation - money destroy ideas. But "monetary" penalty, why not? And some other bonuses like, as an example, higher priority in queue for high reputation (is it needed?) or some chat bans for low reputation could be nice to have and maybe worth to collect it. I think the community can come up with something. > Reputation system can help for that all afk-ers as well I believe. Put those all with low reputation in one party and they will afk for each other . Maybe reputation in some few categories? Dreaming > And scaming during events (winterfest!). > It could be usefull for administrators too. Imagine you can set some low reputation (even normally not possible to achieve) for all who abuse some bug and instead ban them, an account gets possiblity to log in and do some activities but do not get AD or is kicked from zen exchange queue or can not use AH for some period of time? > > I know it is easy to say and more difficult to do. I can see how it can be abused by increasing reputation by fake friends and other "bad clans". And what does it mean someone is not helpful or unpleasant? > > Sorry for long post once again. But I do this once per few years . > I am an old casual player, even very, very casual lately. I can handle issues we have. But there are some they can't. Why not to help them and for all of us as a final result (better educated playerbase)?
Yaknow that would be great if i didnt get accused of botting. Not only that but now youre requesting i make my experience even more boring form some random lad i see in a video game? Riiiiiight.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
THERE is NOTHING of any practical value that can be taught to ANYONE to get through a leveling queue.. if you are actually serious and telling me your are queuing and sitting around and doing nothing but telling people what they OUGHT to be doing.. then I would find this JUST as rude and annoying as running ahead of me and killing everything. There is no intrinsic difference between the two. Your not a mega guru the underprivileged youths.. heck you dont even know if these people are on their tenth alt.. and just want to relax a bit.. you dont know anything about thier skill level or knowledge or lack of it.. and teaching them how to get through a event at lvl 35.. helps them so little in the end .. its not even reasonable to state your "helping" them whatsoever.
Give it up.. its so far ridiculous of argument that espousing it over and over inst winning anyone over.
Why does this annoying thread keep popping up..
its a problem to like 5% of the playerbase.. I doubt most under 60s care for anything but getting their daily ad and progressing a bit further in the game. Im sure most of them are just fine with getting speed runned through a leveling dungeon.
IF they want to "experience" I mean actually "experience " it at level the way it was "originally attended" then they need to find brand new players.. not twinked from years of junk (and even event weapons are better then ANYTHING we had originally" Alot of us did original lvl 60 dungeons with r4s and r5s on.. Even back then.. people rarely ran things at level..
give it up..
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rybsyngoniumMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 22Arc User
Things do not have to look the way they look now. That is why we write our feedback on feedback forum. I just described how they could look like, based on my and other players experience, and some problems we all have. Interestingly, some took everything to themselves and attacked personally, without such a need.
No, I am not even a guru, not to say mega. I never said it. I do not even do Leveling Queue with my mains. Alts are for that as I said. And I do not just say to my party "hi folks, now I will be teaching you" as you suggest. I do my job, but with no rush and allow to do things for others first if they are in lower ilevel. And only when I see someone is struggling with problems (but I need to be around to see that, right?) I do what I described. Simple as that. And you are right - I do not know if there are other's alts or new players so as feedback I proposed to have such option to mark it by players by themself, not only short message "there is a new player" which appears on first time only of course.
There was said " they need to find brand new players". I did that, I brought several (yeap, 12 exactly) folks during last two years (I was not playing at all at that time) and only one is still playing (thinks about leaving, mainly due to bugs). Almost all of them told me more or less the same: The community is at least as toxic here as in my current game so I come back because at least I know that game. I do not know what to do, when I would like to see intro, read something what poped up in journal (maybe it is important? I do not know) they hurry me up. I die on party content because I was left alone and they shout to me what a morron I am when I try to go to them. Thanks for that.
And that is first impression which comes from Leveling Queues. So why you think they would like to stay? Because of new content? For new player everything is new. Most players have something to do in current content. Some even thinks there is too much things to do to catch up. And looks like developers see that so this is why we have last mods like we have.
The real problem is that in the pursuit of ADs, most players forget that it should be fun and not a festival of insults. Think about this please when you call thread which describes some others feedback (feelings, experience) "annoying".
And please chill out. I do not attack anyone personally.
To start my main is 45 as of last night. So I am still very new even though I’ve had an account and a character for years, I’ve just really started diving into the game. Real life and other obligations kept me from Neverwinter until recently.
But onto my topic and it’s most likely an old one. And that is dungeons and the lack of being able to have fun after you queue up to run them. The reason doesn’t appear to be coming from the dungeon itself but from the fact that the high level people don’t scale down appropriately to be able to participate in the dungeon at any sane level. The last three attempts I made to run dungeons I was stuck with people who took off running like they were super speedsters and had the entire dungeon slaughtered before I was a quarter of the way into the dungeon myself, which left me not being allowed to participate or even getting to attack a mob.
I’m beginning to understand the astral diamond race. And I’ve heard people say it’s the people you’re running the dungeon with that are the problem. However, I feel that’s only part of the problem. The scaling is an issue and should be redone to make the dungeons challenging for everyone participating. I’m all for higher levels being able to scale down and make the dungeons somewhat easier as they should are more powerful, but the way it is now destroys the experience for those coming up thru the levels. And even at high level I would think it would be more fun to have challenging content than to race through a dungeon slaughtering everything with ease.
Anyway just my opinion. I’m curious, Has there ever been any talk of adjusting this by the developers? Last night after it happened for a third time in a row I just logged off in the middle of a dungeon run after the level 70 had killed 2 bosses 2 minutes in. And I had never even made it to the first boss spawning point. It was my first time in that dungeon and it was just ruined. I saw no point going further.
Thanks.
Some players acting as "speed runners" taking off and leaving other party members behind,
Players sometimes leaving hoards of mobs for lesser skilled players to contend with or,
Players sometimes killing off everything and leaving other players feeling they are denied the opportunity to participate,
Most of which can be easily overcome by all players acting as actual party members instead of individual juggernauts, sticking with other members of the group to the best of their ability and making some allowances for the playstyles of other people in the same group.
No one is saying anyone "has" to do anything or "has" to play a certain way... but so long as some players continue to appear to play lacking consideration towards others these kinds of threads will continue to "pop up.
Not every player who queues for random content is going to have the same motivation for doing so, but just by at least trying to be considerate of other players - regardless of their apparent differences in motivation - I personally believe will go a long way toward seeing fewer of these "annoying threads"...
That and the clear understanding that when a player intentionally queues for "RANDOM" queue run, not only content but the other people in the party are going to be part of that randomness and the quickest and easiest way to keep from being placed in content a player doesn't want to be in, or partied with players someone doesn't want to run with is to stop intentionally pushing the button for "RANDOM" queues.
I am actually wondering how many normal dungeons people are getting.
My wife and I mostly get Dread Legion, Master of the Hunt, and Illusionist's Gambit. We happened to get a Cragmire Crypts last night. The lower level (level 29, I think) player in the dungeon with us really didn't have trouble keeping up. Our characters were lower item level (7.8k, I think) and not very fast. I was on a rogue and snuck past some mobs to start clearing ahead. Between the lower level character and my wife's ranger, they cleared mobs I snuck past in good time and we cleared the dungeon quite quickly. The lower level actually got to do quite a bit of fighting.
I am actually wondering how many normal dungeons people are getting.
Think I am about 1 in 50 runs is a dungeon. Perhaps less.
I cant actually remember the last time I got a dungeon and every day it seems it is either MotH or DL. I think I had an IG before Christmas and a Cragmire Crypts in October.
Is this actually a problem that anyone should care about now if dungeons are popping so rarely? Yes it affects new players but it is not like anyone really cares about them, excluding the shills of course.
Equating one's personal experience and thinking the same applies to everyone else seems to be be your take, but not necessarily the best way to evaluate things for everyone else who plays the game.
But I think your comment about your not caring about the experience new players have, or your comment on those who do seem to care being "shills", pretty much reinforces much of what I already mentioned about the inconsiderate behavior of some players who are only concerned about themselves.
If I never saw another sub-70 in a run it would be great (and brilliant for completion times and anything that reduces the time you need to spend in boring and repetitive content is seen as good by actual players even if shills hate this) but what really drives the shills wild is that this not caring about new players in any way is the normative view in this game and indeed in every other mmo.
Lucky for you there probably wasn't a lot of players with the same attitude when you were a "sub-70" level player... huh?
You're use and repeated use of the term "shill" brings to mind someone I frequently used to see posting on Zone chat in Protector's Enclave... at least until I muted them.
However not to digress too far I do appreciate you assisting me in confirming my view that it's all about "player attitude"...
Some players are able to run with others, help them out and can be considerate while still having a good experience - and obviously some players aren't and are only concerned with their own experiences, feelings and rewards, sometimes even to the proposed detriment and demeaning of others.
I really don't have too much more to say on the subject and besides I have to do a little self interest homework... I think I'll start with some research to re-familiarize my self with tendencies related to narcissistic behavior.
Let me guess most of those other web sites allow posters complete anonymity and they aren’t held accountable for intentionally or inconsiderately flaming or trashing someone else…
Thanks for the heads up, sounds like someplace I’d probably want to try to avoid.
Comments
HAMSTER off. Seriously. What makes you think anyone gives any degree of HAMSTER about your experience? I'm playing for myself, so why should I reduce how much I'm enjoying the game for someone else?
It's mindbogglingly simple, yet the devs seems to be incapable of figuring out this simple solution.
However, doing this would increase the levelling queue wait times dramatically.
... or they could just sort out the downscaling properly because, let's be honest, it's garbage.
Cos they are never ever, (seriously EVER) going to find a way that suits everyone.
In leveling dungeons, (particularly CT) certain L70 characters can walk past a monster and it dies, if they forget to dismiss a companion, everything dies.
The L70s also move so much faster than their sub 70 compatriots and short of standing still due to boons, enchants, eqpt etc etc, they will always be miles ahead and groaning that "...the spod can't keep up, grumble, grumble..."
It's never going to be possible to achieve equity in "who can do what" in a levelling dungeon.
so... how about...
Simply give every sub 70 toon a boost to Movement rate when running with L70s in RLQ to allow them to simply keep up.
You can argue all you want about whether it is fair or unfair that some people are carrying others, that is the case in ALL Random Queues, but most keenly observed in Leveling.
Just let them Keep Up with the action, even if they're not massively involved in it.
New Rule (sorry Bill, copyright cheque is in the post... honest) In levelling dungeons ALL toons run at the Movement rate of the highest characters score.
Newbs get to stay where the action is, pros don't huff and puff tapping their feet impatiently waiting at the Bosses Door.
Once its over, the second the group disbands, you're back to snails pace.
And yes, don't worry GWFs... you're need to be first to everything will be untouched... people wouldn't receive a speed boost when you press your "Tally Ho" button...
Pre-mod 9, AD bonus was given based on skirmish, standard dungeon, epic dungeon classifications. So, queueing was a matter of choice on Which dungeon was the fastest...period. The two favored standard dungeons were CT and TOS. CT was overrun with low level bots. So, the dungeon of choice for high level players was TOS. Thus, in order to get dungeons to pop for anything except these two, you needed a sufficient number of players to queue for these dungeons. Thus, you had to match the dungeon for queue to pop. THAT is why it took time. Below level 69, players might queue for different dungeons.
Leveling skirmishes have always been level limited, unlike dungeons. Thus, queueing for skirmishes has a start and stop level (unless part of CTA). So, this adds even more wait for queue time, as you need a sufficient number of players who want that particular skirmish in that level range. Pre-mod 9, level 70s for the daily AD could not get it by queuing for every skirmish.
If under the current RQ system, level 70s are removed from the ability to be placed in leveling dungeons, then the population that runs those dungeons will only be intro level for dungeon up to level 69. The RQ system will match any 3 players to any one of those dungeons for the RQ (since grouping requirements and dungeon choice are not needed). As long as there are 3 people online anywhere on the server up to level 69 queueing, the RQ should pop and place the players in a dungeon that the lowest level player qualifies for, and the others (lvl 69 and below) will be scaled down. Thus, the argument that the wait time will increase is incorrect. If there are not 3 people online under level 70, then Cryptic has a much bigger problem than just what is complained about on this thread.
Why level 70 and not say, level 60? Either one would be fine, although lvl 61-69 does not add the scaling difficulties as much. The issue is that at level 70, the 4th artifact slot opens. and the ability to start most of the campaign content also opens. Pre level 70, the AI, first half of ToD, EE, maze engine, and Sharandar are open. However, it is impossible for a player to focus on boon progression in these campaigns AND not level quickly. Additionally, gear sets for artifact weapons (unless you count the lvl 60 set and actually level it up...a waste), lvl 70 gear sets that have the special functions will not be available. Mount and companion bonuses will depend on the player. Thus, players will have gear choices that are relatively the same below 70 and more easily scalable, no artifact gear sets (practically), minimal access to boons, and finally encounter powers will not be level 4, the final character attribute slot will not be given as well. By removing level 70s from the levelling dungeons, the 'scaling' you ask for will automatically happen without creating the massive delay times for queue as has been posted will happen.
Now, I am not arguing that level 70s should not be able to queue directly for levelling dungeons, but that RQ for level 70s should not include the possibility. Why is this a distinction? As argued, some guilds might have level 70s that want to go very slow and show how a dungeon works, secret areas, whatever. This can be done by direct queue, apart from the RQ. Therefore, the argument that removing the ability of 70s to get levelling dungeons in RQ will require a player always to have a character below 69 is also not true. What it does is remove the level 70 from using levelling dungeons as a means to get AD in RQ, period.
Of course, doing this would require, perhaps, a shifting of AD rewards for level 70, but oh well.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Each player makes their choice about how they behave it's not a fault with the game design or leveling it's how party members feel toward the other members of their party.
Every higher level player has the option to keep with slower players despite their speed enhancements - every higher level player has the option to let lower level players participate despite their higher damage capability. Lower level players usually don't have the option to increase their speed or battle effectiveness and sometimes they can't even communicate even if they want to.
So in my mind it is pretty simple…usually it's more feasible for to higher level players to try to accommodate ( and help) lower level players than it is for lower level players to try to accommodate higher level players – to an extent.
That way lower level players become more effective players, faster, and better at their craft. Of course the same probably can be said if they don’t receive any assistance, but it is likely to take longer so as I see it when higher level more experienced players help less experience low level players they’re actually helping themselves by reducing the number of inexperienced, inadequately skilled and equipped players.
Or some can just keep complaining about lower level players as they struggle to become better on their own...
My 2¢
But that's just a guess.
We could also have it made where every character moves at the rate of the slowest character, which wold be just as effective but I predict it would also generate a whole host of complaints of a different nature. We've already hears some responses to character "nerfing" or "scaling" which in essence is what one of those suggestions are.
Everyone just needs to chill. After all, it’s just a game.
I used to let low tier players play, while i just occasionally popped CS and ITF, and just hit those more annoying enemies. Then, both of the lower geared players started chatting about how I'm a bot.
That's when I stopped giving a damn and just ran ahead and murdered everything.
Yet, the post by @h3llbentwisp implies that we should help those players? So there's 3 things we have to do - help players, but not kill everything so they enjoy the game, AND we have to not be AFK, so they get to "enjoy the content"?
WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO. Jumping Jesus Christ on a pogo stick it's impossible to make an agreement with THREE contradicting conditions.
Y'all gotta realize that.
Radical solition.
On entrance the maxed toon gets 2 ropes, ropes both newbie toons and drags them along with them. The ropes summon random example dungeon mobs for the newbie toons to fight with the ability to run alongside them for the duration of the dungeon, screaming "omg your damage is just great !!!" every time they get hit.
At the end there are two manditory chests, one normal for the maxed toon, and one that has "now shut up, and take your free AD" hovering above it for the newbies.
Maxed toon gets the achievement "newbie herder" for completing a dungeon without accidently dragging newbies to their deaths in spikepits or off cliffs.
Done, all happy.
I rarely do RLQ anymore unless I'm coaching a new guildie, but Goddamit I would happily, gladly, see them get a completely irrelevant short term bump in Movement rate to speed the whole thing up and allow them to feel like they are at least involved, and not have speedsters sitting waiting for slower players to catch up.
The thing about any gated boss dungeon is that no one gets in till the last person gets there.
Are there player who would rather sit and wait at the gate, or stay back to let slower players keep up, (apart from GWFs that is...) than have everyone move together and finish it in 3/4 of the time?
Remember I'm only talking Leveling Dungeons. Not Castle Never, where some players' heads would explode if they couldn't race off on their own. (Mind you it might be nice if you could occasionally throw a leash round those guys in FBI and MSPC. "If You slow down, we'll all finish faster." is like some sort of non sequitur to some folk.) It's not going to stop the big clever L70s from wasting everything with a cough in the general direction of the monsters and proving how great they are. In fact they'll have an audience to see how special they are.
Slowing everyone down would, indeed, do the same job. But why would you even consider it? If Everyone is going to be moving at the same rate it would take some sort of facile moron to insist it was at the slowest rate possible. That's just a silly strawman and lacks logical value.
I might be alone, but I lack the ego needed to get in a tizz over giving a newbie a can of Red Bull to get everyone moving through a one-button slaughter run quickly.
Maybe it would just deny too many people who feel the need to moan about other players ruining their game an easy opportunity?
Did you bother to communicate with them? Piont out the chests or skill nodes that they were about to pass? or traps that they should avoid? Tell them that if they take the path on the left, there is a dead end? Teamwork requires communication.
Peter Shaffer
Also that is why it is a pity that no one from community managers or game designers comment on this topic. I would like to know what was the intention to create Leveling Queue. Which interlocutor is closer to the "truth". Community will always be divided and that is why we need some game moderators.
[Please forgive me any language mistakes as English is not my native language and I will try to write about some difficult things. And forgive me long post too
I wanted to answer to @gromovnipljesak#8234 's last post but I realized that it could be unnecessarily personally received.
And although the question in that post was asked in a certain anger (at least that's how I fell it), it's justifiable.
But do not get me wrong, I'm in total opposition to what @gromovnipljesak#8234 (and others thinking like him) says and much closer to the @dionchi 's statements. But again, question is justifable.
Question is: What do you want us to do (in Leveling Dungeons when we are high ilvls)? (do not like BIS or elitist wording here in this forum).
To answer it, let's remind what this thread is about. OP shared her/his feelings about some dungeon runs when he/she is on certain position/level in game. Thank you @justicesupreme for that. I bet you would like to make this game better. Me too, so that is why I decided to write this post after many years of playing.
However, many posters do not even try to understand it and instead give "solutions" that can be summarized:
agree with what we do because it is our right to do this - we need some fast AD so ...,
or: create your own party and do it on your own way,
or: if you do not like this do not do this queue until you will be on "appropriate" level and you will be able to do the same and other queues.
Some more polite say: I wait politely until others finish - read: afk on beginnig or on boss entry.
Hmm. I will refer to these statements later. (yes, there are also voices with which I agree more or less and which I have temporarily omitted in this summary)
What the Leveling Queue really is? Is not that it should be called Exercise/Training Queue rather? Ah yes, you are right, there are not all dungeons and skirmishes available to exercise. And yes, you are right again, you can pick up any dungeon/skirmish directly to train.
What is the problem then? Astral diamonds of course.
People who levels have right to earn some ADs during "leveling", along the way of doing everyday content - it means when they LEARN. And I put leveling in quotes because leveling is not only to get 70th lvl. This is the process, including doing some campaigns for boons - those "easiest" campaigns at least, what takes 1-2 months - it depends how player is willing and able to play. (I hope this thread will not decrease the willingness of many of new players).
To paraphrase @gromovnipljesak#8234 , "Y'all gotta realize" two things. We can't demand from new players to have companions, enchantments, insignia bonuses, bondings, etc. (even green/low level items) when they are not able to get some decent value of ADs. And we can't demand that new players will know their toons, other classes and team cooperation (not to mention the bosses) mechanics if they are not doing dungeons in a proper way - it means they do not participate in fights in decent way.
Those two above are common advices on other posts in a forum! And when someone says he/she have a problem to get to the point we advice he/she gets simple: go away.
Going back to the point. That's why I would prefer the easiest queue to be called Exercise Queue because that is(should be) the place where new players should be able to learn at least:
own toon mechanics - obviously
other classes mechanics - they should learn how it is important
team cooperation - comes from two above
Nowdays we have many more campaings in NW that it was few years ago. It demands a lot of time to be in line with playerbase. We should not further extend this time with ideas and advice on learning and earning AD with separate activities. So having Leveling Queue "paid" with AD is fine. The problem is we can not do things described above properly - shortly: teaching (some others say "mentoring").
First of all, in most of dungeons if player is not at 70th lvl is not able to choose/check all "correct" powers and feats - thus learn correct rotation.
Second, when player is at max lvl things are going too easily in Leveling Queue - we have a huge gap between "underperform" and "overperform". Especially when new players get relatively strong free equipment from Barovia.
To not only complain I will try to write something constructive now.
The easiest way to fix the problem I see, Leveling Queue should choose only one 70lvl toon with two other, lower levels. But you know what, I think it works in that way! Unfortunately sometimes there is not so many low level buddies, that is why we got more 70s in party. And lvl 70 does not mean it is an experienced player!
Second, answering to @gromovnipljesak#8234's question (I do not write directly to you, @gromovnipljesak#8234
Play with low level toons. It means do not afk - you are wasting your and their time if they struggled too much with mobs.
Be somewhere close to players and help them when you see they have problems (use some power to dimnish mobs health, decrase mobs dmg, increase players dmg!, cure them!).
Be close with auras and feats, let them feel and see what is a difference with and without it.
Simply position behind boss, even not doing damage - let them learn what that flying numbers mean! (example: When playing with some low level players I check when they are able to decrease boss's health by 20%-40%. If it takes some "long" time - few, several seconds in reality - I position behind boss and ask if they see the difference).
Kindly asking developers, could be nice if we could have some "natural" possibility to mark by new/unexperienced players what kind of run they would like to expect (speed run or with some learning curve) - to not need to ask them all the time if they are new and what they expect.
And yes, I understand some will say: "I need fast AD, do not expect it from me. They can create own party and queue."
Well, new, low level player simply can't - because chat is blocked. And even they unlock chat, then we, higher ilvl players, have more friends and guildmates to organize such speed party faster.
Now I will say something probably many will dislike. I wish to treat Leveling Queue as Exercise Queue where someone who is participating gets his AD for helping others. That is from 9k to ~15k AD (depends which bonuses we have active) less, which we, higher ilvl players, can easily earn from other queues - or simply having alts (do not waste AD bonus on alts
And you can say that there always will be people who have some "bad behavior" so why to bother? That is true. So it could be nice to have some reputation system - how it works in real life. I should be able to say others that someone is not helpful, unpleasant or even rude. After dungeon run (and maybe some other activities, expecially in party) we can give reputation point to other player or vote to decrease it. This should be reserved for special cases - no need to think about it when everything went "normal". Thus it could be some limit like " +20/-20 or +100/-100? I do not expect to have any "monetary" bonus from having high reputation - money destroy ideas. But "monetary" penalty, why not? And some other bonuses like, as an example, higher priority in queue for high reputation (is it needed?) or some chat bans for low reputation could be nice to have and maybe worth to collect it. I think the community can come up with something.
Reputation system can help for that all afk-ers as well I believe. Put those all with low reputation in one party and they will afk for each other
And scaming during events (winterfest!).
It could be usefull for administrators too. Imagine you can set some low reputation (even normally not possible to achieve) for all who abuse some bug and instead ban them, an account gets possiblity to log in and do some activities but do not get AD or is kicked from zen exchange queue or can not use AH for some period of time?
I know it is easy to say and more difficult to do. I can see how it can be abused by increasing reputation by fake friends and other "bad clans". And what does it mean someone is not helpful or unpleasant?
Sorry for long post once again. But I do this once per few years
I am an old casual player, even very, very casual lately. I can handle issues we have. But there are some they can't. Why not to help them and for all of us as a final result (better educated playerbase)?
> I have been watching this topic for some time because I think it is important for the community, and I am not sure if we all understand it correctly.
> Also that is why it is a pity that no one from community managers or game designers comment on this topic. I would like to know what was the intention to create Leveling Queue. Which interlocutor is closer to the "truth". Community will always be divided and that is why we need some game moderators.
>
> [Please forgive me any language mistakes as English is not my native language and I will try to write about some difficult things. And forgive me long post too
>
>
> I wanted to answer to @gromovnipljesak#8234 's last post but I realized that it could be unnecessarily personally received.
> And although the question in that post was asked in a certain anger (at least that's how I fell it), it's justifiable.
> But do not get me wrong, I'm in total opposition to what @gromovnipljesak#8234 (and others thinking like him) says and much closer to the @dionchi 's statements. But again, question is justifable.
>
> Question is: What do you want us to do (in Leveling Dungeons when we are high ilvls)? (do not like BIS or elitist wording here in this forum).
> To answer it, let's remind what this thread is about. OP shared her/his feelings about some dungeon runs when he/she is on certain position/level in game. Thank you @justicesupreme for that. I bet you would like to make this game better. Me too, so that is why I decided to write this post after many years of playing.
> However, many posters do not even try to understand it and instead give "solutions" that can be summarized:
> agree with what we do because it is our right to do this - we need some fast AD so ...,
> or: create your own party and do it on your own way,
> or: if you do not like this do not do this queue until you will be on "appropriate" level and you will be able to do the same and other queues.
> Some more polite say: I wait politely until others finish - read: afk on beginnig or on boss entry.
> Hmm. I will refer to these statements later. (yes, there are also voices with which I agree more or less and which I have temporarily omitted in this summary)
>
> What the Leveling Queue really is? Is not that it should be called Exercise/Training Queue rather? Ah yes, you are right, there are not all dungeons and skirmishes available to exercise. And yes, you are right again, you can pick up any dungeon/skirmish directly to train.
> What is the problem then? Astral diamonds of course.
> People who levels have right to earn some ADs during "leveling", along the way of doing everyday content - it means when they LEARN. And I put leveling in quotes because leveling is not only to get 70th lvl. This is the process, including doing some campaigns for boons - those "easiest" campaigns at least, what takes 1-2 months - it depends how player is willing and able to play. (I hope this thread will not decrease the willingness of many of new players).
> To paraphrase @gromovnipljesak#8234 , "Y'all gotta realize" two things. We can't demand from new players to have companions, enchantments, insignia bonuses, bondings, etc. (even green/low level items) when they are not able to get some decent value of ADs. And we can't demand that new players will know their toons, other classes and team cooperation (not to mention the bosses) mechanics if they are not doing dungeons in a proper way - it means they do not participate in fights in decent way.
> Those two above are common advices on other posts in a forum! And when someone says he/she have a problem to get to the point we advice he/she gets simple: go away.
>
> Going back to the point. That's why I would prefer the easiest queue to be called Exercise Queue because that is(should be) the place where new players should be able to learn at least:
> own toon mechanics - obviously
> other classes mechanics - they should learn how it is important
> team cooperation - comes from two above
>
> Nowdays we have many more campaings in NW that it was few years ago. It demands a lot of time to be in line with playerbase. We should not further extend this time with ideas and advice on learning and earning AD with separate activities. So having Leveling Queue "paid" with AD is fine. The problem is we can not do things described above properly - shortly: teaching (some others say "mentoring").
> First of all, in most of dungeons if player is not at 70th lvl is not able to choose/check all "correct" powers and feats - thus learn correct rotation.
> Second, when player is at max lvl things are going too easily in Leveling Queue - we have a huge gap between "underperform" and "overperform". Especially when new players get relatively strong free equipment from Barovia.
>
> To not only complain I will try to write something constructive now.
>
> The easiest way to fix the problem I see, Leveling Queue should choose only one 70lvl toon with two other, lower levels. But you know what, I think it works in that way! Unfortunately sometimes there is not so many low level buddies, that is why we got more 70s in party. And lvl 70 does not mean it is an experienced player!
>
> Second, answering to @gromovnipljesak#8234's question (I do not write directly to you, @gromovnipljesak#8234
> Play with low level toons. It means do not afk - you are wasting your and their time if they struggled too much with mobs.
> Be somewhere close to players and help them when you see they have problems (use some power to dimnish mobs health, decrase mobs dmg, increase players dmg!, cure them!).
> Be close with auras and feats, let them feel and see what is a difference with and without it.
> Simply position behind boss, even not doing damage - let them learn what that flying numbers mean! (example: When playing with some low level players I check when they are able to decrease boss's health by 20%-40%. If it takes some "long" time - few, several seconds in reality - I position behind boss and ask if they see the difference).
>
> Kindly asking developers, could be nice if we could have some "natural" possibility to mark by new/unexperienced players what kind of run they would like to expect (speed run or with some learning curve) - to not need to ask them all the time if they are new and what they expect.
>
> And yes, I understand some will say: "I need fast AD, do not expect it from me. They can create own party and queue."
> Well, new, low level player simply can't - because chat is blocked. And even they unlock chat, then we, higher ilvl players, have more friends and guildmates to organize such speed party faster.
> Now I will say something probably many will dislike. I wish to treat Leveling Queue as Exercise Queue where someone who is participating gets his AD for helping others. That is from 9k to ~15k AD (depends which bonuses we have active) less, which we, higher ilvl players, can easily earn from other queues - or simply having alts (do not waste AD bonus on alts
>
> And you can say that there always will be people who have some "bad behavior" so why to bother? That is true. So it could be nice to have some reputation system - how it works in real life. I should be able to say others that someone is not helpful, unpleasant or even rude. After dungeon run (and maybe some other activities, expecially in party) we can give reputation point to other player or vote to decrease it. This should be reserved for special cases - no need to think about it when everything went "normal". Thus it could be some limit like " +20/-20 or +100/-100? I do not expect to have any "monetary" bonus from having high reputation - money destroy ideas. But "monetary" penalty, why not? And some other bonuses like, as an example, higher priority in queue for high reputation (is it needed?) or some chat bans for low reputation could be nice to have and maybe worth to collect it. I think the community can come up with something.
> Reputation system can help for that all afk-ers as well I believe. Put those all with low reputation in one party and they will afk for each other
> And scaming during events (winterfest!).
> It could be usefull for administrators too. Imagine you can set some low reputation (even normally not possible to achieve) for all who abuse some bug and instead ban them, an account gets possiblity to log in and do some activities but do not get AD or is kicked from zen exchange queue or can not use AH for some period of time?
>
> I know it is easy to say and more difficult to do. I can see how it can be abused by increasing reputation by fake friends and other "bad clans". And what does it mean someone is not helpful or unpleasant?
>
> Sorry for long post once again. But I do this once per few years
> I am an old casual player, even very, very casual lately. I can handle issues we have. But there are some they can't. Why not to help them and for all of us as a final result (better educated playerbase)?
Yaknow that would be great if i didnt get accused of botting. Not only that but now youre requesting i make my experience even more boring form some random lad i see in a video game? Riiiiiight.
Give it up.. its so far ridiculous of argument that espousing it over and over inst winning anyone over.
Why does this annoying thread keep popping up..
its a problem to like 5% of the playerbase.. I doubt most under 60s care for anything but getting their daily ad and progressing a bit further in the game. Im sure most of them are just fine with getting speed runned through a leveling dungeon.
IF they want to "experience" I mean actually "experience " it at level the way it was "originally attended" then they need to find brand new players.. not twinked from years of junk (and even event weapons are better then ANYTHING we had originally" Alot of us did original lvl 60 dungeons with r4s and r5s on.. Even back then.. people rarely ran things at level..
give it up..
I just described how they could look like, based on my and other players experience, and some problems we all have.
Interestingly, some took everything to themselves and attacked personally, without such a need.
No, I am not even a guru, not to say mega. I never said it. I do not even do Leveling Queue with my mains. Alts are for that as I said. And I do not just say to my party "hi folks, now I will be teaching you" as you suggest. I do my job, but with no rush and allow to do things for others first if they are in lower ilevel. And only when I see someone is struggling with problems (but I need to be around to see that, right?) I do what I described. Simple as that.
And you are right - I do not know if there are other's alts or new players so as feedback I proposed to have such option to mark it by players by themself, not only short message "there is a new player" which appears on first time only of course.
There was said " they need to find brand new players". I did that, I brought several (yeap, 12 exactly) folks during last two years (I was not playing at all at that time) and only one is still playing (thinks about leaving, mainly due to bugs). Almost all of them told me more or less the same: The community is at least as toxic here as in my current game so I come back because at least I know that game. I do not know what to do, when I would like to see intro, read something what poped up in journal (maybe it is important? I do not know) they hurry me up. I die on party content because I was left alone and they shout to me what a morron I am when I try to go to them. Thanks for that.
And that is first impression which comes from Leveling Queues. So why you think they would like to stay? Because of new content? For new player everything is new. Most players have something to do in current content. Some even thinks there is too much things to do to catch up. And looks like developers see that so this is why we have last mods like we have.
The real problem is that in the pursuit of ADs, most players forget that it should be fun and not a festival of insults. Think about this please when you call thread which describes some others feedback (feelings, experience) "annoying".
And please chill out. I do not attack anyone personally.
Just by way of review…
- Some players acting as "speed runners" taking off and leaving other party members behind,
- Players sometimes leaving hoards of mobs for lesser skilled players to contend with or,
- Players sometimes killing off everything and leaving other players feeling they are denied the opportunity to participate,
Most of which can be easily overcome by all players acting as actual party members instead of individual juggernauts, sticking with other members of the group to the best of their ability and making some allowances for the playstyles of other people in the same group.No one is saying anyone "has" to do anything or "has" to play a certain way... but so long as some players continue to appear to play lacking consideration towards others these kinds of threads will continue to "pop up.
Not every player who queues for random content is going to have the same motivation for doing so, but just by at least trying to be considerate of other players - regardless of their apparent differences in motivation - I personally believe will go a long way toward seeing fewer of these "annoying threads"...
That and the clear understanding that when a player intentionally queues for "RANDOM" queue run, not only content but the other people in the party are going to be part of that randomness and the quickest and easiest way to keep from being placed in content a player doesn't want to be in, or partied with players someone doesn't want to run with is to stop intentionally pushing the button for "RANDOM" queues.
But I think your comment about your not caring about the experience new players have, or your comment on those who do seem to care being "shills", pretty much reinforces much of what I already mentioned about the inconsiderate behavior of some players who are only concerned about themselves.
You're use and repeated use of the term "shill" brings to mind someone I frequently used to see posting on Zone chat in Protector's Enclave... at least until I muted them.
However not to digress too far I do appreciate you assisting me in confirming my view that it's all about "player attitude"...
Some players are able to run with others, help them out and can be considerate while still having a good experience - and obviously some players aren't and are only concerned with their own experiences, feelings and rewards, sometimes even to the proposed detriment and demeaning of others.
I really don't have too much more to say on the subject and besides I have to do a little self interest homework... I think I'll start with some research to re-familiarize my self with tendencies related to narcissistic behavior.
Thanks for the heads up, sounds like someplace I’d probably want to try to avoid.