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[FEEDBACK] REDUCE TOO HIGH HEALING

dolreydolrey Member Posts: 741 Arc User
edited January 2019 in Player Feedback (PC)
Hello :) Previously I've been writing threads with concrete suggestions about skills or mechanics of some classes. But here I would like to write my opinion about one problem which hid deep in game mechanics and which make game process less intresting and challenging.

The name of this problem is: too high healing. It is good that developers previously informed us that they understand this problem. So I hope that this thread is written on time.

Let's figure out why this helpful mechanics can create troubles? Really from the first view high healing is cool because it make your character stronger and help you to complete game content. But from the other hand it greatly change (how to say it well..) parameters of that content.

It's obvious that in order to give challenge for players whose characters have very high healing developers need to add to game more and more "burst" damage because sustained damage isn't effective against high healing. And actually, if we will take a look at all top dungeons then we will see that "burst" damage is everywhere. There is need to say that oneshots aren't so interesting and it isn't the right challenge that we would like to see.

In the past I also created this picture to illustrate what I am talking about (many of you can recognize here history of class changes in Neverwinter Online).


There are at least 2 ways how to decide this problem and make PvE interesting again.
1) The first one looks very difficult even for player who don't engage in development process. This is global rework of all healing and defensive mechanics (which will force developers to take care and about offensive mechanics to fix following problems with balance in PvP). Easier to say first way suppose global rework of all abilities in the game. Looks not so believable right?

2) The second way is much more realistic and easier to do. To decide this problem I would like to ask to add healing suppression for all epic dungeons (-Lol what?! -Yes, yes!) As we know in PvP troubles associated with immortalyty of some classes or builds gone into past and maybe this change can help to improve and PvE.

So, thank you for your attention. Hope that this thread can help to finally decide main problem of battle process in PvE.

Ps: also maybe it would be better to delete from the game resurrection stones because they make mechanics of many bosses more trivial.
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Comments

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    This is never going to change. Mobs hit way harder than they did a dozen modules ago. They would have to redo so many things, and they don't have the manpower to achieve it.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    ..and you'll have everyone calling out "+scrolls" for every dungeon run instead of just CR and CoDG.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    So what exactly is wrong with players having an advantage over their opponents, even a small one like this in some aspects of PVE?

    If someone believes they need more of a challenge perhaps they should consider dismissing a few of their companions and mounts, take out some of those rank 14 enchantments and leave a handfull boons behind.

    If anyone thinks any particular content lacks challenge, perhaps the problem isn't with the mechanics of the area or the class attributes of other players...

    Or perhaps those players need to find different areas that will present them with more of a challenge.

    Just sayin' ~
    DD~
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    Private queue; hardcore and minimum il. 'Nuff said.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • polaris1986polaris1986 Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    it will not help, imho

    need a common changes. with dmg buffs/healing/supp parties, els.
    When was only 2 support classes it was more harder. but you cant just delite paladins, I think it was begining of supports domination. but now Cryptics add also SW-buffer.

    Also new items of 500-550 iL make possible to run most dungeons solo.
    Need a new wipe.

    You say that need reduse self-healing. But if you'll have an Adept DC 18k iL anyway he will possible runs anything without tanks, just need a strong GWF also with 18k. So untill there too much Power...

    But if breake boundins and companions... will not so much powersharing, not much recovery and crits. Dailies should not be a regular. But aslo you need do delite OP wis aura, DC passive and monts bonus. With this cuts we can expect more interesting game.

    they should consider dismissing a few of their companions and mounts, take out some of those rank 14 enchantments and leave a handfull boons behind.


    yes, i playing DC ~11k, (its a spesial nooby DC) often I run t3 dungeons FBI or CC and it more ... challenging... that runs with my main ~15,5k DC. And thats all. but being 11-12k support you can only runs dundeons like CC in random. Becaise noone will go random Co9G with 1 DC/GF 12k, and there no requests from const parties for such DC.

    Also I dont sure that little DPS class without boundings will possible not die and enough damage for run game mechanicks of tomp Orcus or Ras Nsi with summoning mobs.

    inho.
    "sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"

  • zyronaxzyronax Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    So because you dislike the current self-healing setup, and because you want us all to be joined at the hip because "all great MMOs" do something akin to this, we should all be made to do this regardless of whether we want to or not? Yeah, no thanks.

    As other posters have pointed out, it is entirely within your power to make the game harder/more challenging for yourself if that is what you desire without adding more grind and misery to a game that is already rife with both. That eToS too easy? Swap out those r12-r14 enchantments with r6s-r8s. Replace your legendary pet(s) with non-legendary ones. Drop the r14 Bonding runestones. Drop the legendary mount and its powers. Dust off your old inventory stores and equip 300 IL gear, etc. You'll find all the challenge you want, can handle, and then some.

    Finally, if other "great MMOs" do what you want why are you not playing those games? :)
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    your right, but its just like 5% of the overall problem..

    I would love another game reset.. but instead they nerf and resell power.. its what the commonly do.

    most mmos have a hard time after say year 2-3 max.. this game has no difference, other games do general resets every 1.5 or 2 years to make thigns a bit fresher.. they usually opt old content as solo play at that time and re release a whole stretch of new stuff, but this game has historically not done well with that..

    My opionon? they release far too many campaigns.. they should axe them to 1 a year and actually do them right.. not 2-3 a year.. that is ludicrous and makes far too much busy work and lousy coding and too much power.

    I dont want to bust on them too bad, because. almost eveyr mmo has mistakes.. some are huge and colossal..

    I just dont want another grind campaign like mod 10 again.. that is my biggest concern.. so boring.. SO very boring

    my suggestion..is to make another general game reset.. up the level, introduce a slew of new dungeons (5-6) new skirms (4-5) leave the old ones in at current lvl 70.

    But whatever, they wont, pipe dreams and all that.




  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Member Posts: 763 Arc User
    dolrey said:



    ...

    And if you want to know why I am still at this forum.. Now there are not so good time for mmorpg fans. Many projects opens just to get our cash. Many of them were closed even before one year of their existence because players feel it a mile away. So I am still here because I remember how good this game was and that it was created "From fans of D&D for fans of D&D". And I would like to bring back its overall quality and difficulty.

    I think the point of zyronax's post is that you have built into your assumptions about this game that all players have toons at max level, and are as bored with the current meta as you are, and want 'more challenge' in combat and dungeons in general.

    Or all players that matter, anyway. I've been playing this game since early 2014, and the types of changes you recommend in your original post would pretty much kill any interest I have in this game.

    As you MAY recall, the last time the devs implemented a "reset" (much less dramatic than the one you propose) was when they bumped end game content to level 70 in the EE campaign.

    Need I remind you how that worked out?
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    dolrey said:


    But do you really think it is normal that most popular build of TANK has almoust 0 defence and deflection?

    I've never seen this. I have an OP and I have worked hard to get him to the point where he is (about 50% damage reduction).
    dolrey said:


    Also do you really like to play content where victory doesn't depend on player's actions? Because you only have to donate on bis equipment/companions and having anough stats you just rush forward ignoring all logic of batle in mmos (that is how all videos with speed runs look like).

    Just because all videos with speed runs show players behaving in a particular way does not mean that these videos are representative of the majority of players. I would think that, by definition, these videos are posted by a minority of players and, therefore, showcase a minority of builds and playstyles. Furthermore, it's usually players who are at the very top end of the meta who are posting these videos, which explains why they look so much the same.

    I've got a 15.2k warlock and a 13.2k OP, while my wife has a 15.8k warlock. Our dungeon runs only look like this if we are doing easy, tier 1 dungeons (etos, esot, malabog's, etc).
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    I don't want to return to the days where half the population had to be a healer so that the other half could do their dailies.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    The suggestion in the OP is based on a philosophical assumption on how the game is supposed to be setup, as this philosophical assumption has crept into a few of dolrey's answers.

    The OP wants less self healing because TANKs run 0 defense and 0 deflect.

    First, this is absolutely not true. The tank classes (OP and GF) have learned exactly how much damage resistance is needed from a party and have tailored their stats accordingly. After you hit a certain DR, anything over that amount is EXTRA (in anything except hardcore mode) in PvE. In hardcore mode, OPs and GFs modify their stats to function in the role to prevent party deaths (for example, changing a rank 10 lifesteal boon for a rank 10 defense boon), or something like that. Changing self healing will in no way change anything with regard to this. All it will do is hurt certain classes that rely more on self healing, or other classes or builds that actually heal and find utility in a variety of party setups.

    Second, TWO stats were dramatically changed at the release of mod 6 (regeneration and life steal) to prevent much of the self- healing. Because of power creep, it is possible for multiple classes to stack life steal with the life steal % heal to get big heals. However, asking to adjust this would again, affect all classes, and not just the few imaginary "TANKS who have 0 defense and deflect."

    Third, some TANK builds are actually BUFFERs (OP with power and hit points) or DPS (specialized GFs). To secretly complain against these two builds by stating they have 0 defense or 0 deflect is unfortunate. OPs that go as buffers can random queue via loadouts as a TANK or HEALER, and thus the party (not the marginalized stat) determines the role. The dps GF class cannot random queue via loadout as anything but a TANK, and therefore usually only finds roles in premade parties that would not affect your game play at all in PvE. Even though I do NOT and NEVER WILL have a dps GF loadout, I NEVER argue against the build, if the player so decides to play the GF that way (with all the benefits and consequences thereof). Dps GFs do not have 0 defense and deflect, but do not build for it because it fits not their choice. If this post is a secret shot against removing the possibility of the dps GF, I am against the OP.

    Fourth, TANK classes (the OP and the GF) are required for any random queue, so they are always in high demand. The videos on the internet (especially on the GF side) are dominated by dps GFs who show how to build pure dps or slightly hybrid dps GFs. But, there are knowledgeable guides on how to build GFs that utilize defense and deflect without being useless. Nerfing self healing will in no way EXPAND the role or change the gameplay of the TANK role.

    Fifth, the TANK role is necessary in hardcore mode, where there is zero running head. The tank controls the speed. In anything non hardcore, the simple fact exists that the need to mitigating enemy damage is not as desired as buffing party damage. Even with reduced self healing, this equational AND design fact exists thoroughly in the game. There is only 1 truly TANK check mechanic in the whole game (2nd boss ravenloft, where the aggro of the tank better take that IBS hit or the boss spins into immunity). The other TANK-like attacks (mSVA, FBI) do not really need a TANK. And HEALING checks (books vs sisters at first boss ravenloft, final boss ravenloft, mSP final boss last stage) are more abundant.

    Sixth, the devs have required the Trinity of MMORPG for random queue (tank, healer, and dps), but in reality they have not expanded the ability of players to self-identify in their own build. My suggestion would, in contradistinction to the OP, instead of nerfing self healing to force TANK play out of the TANK class and hurt all classes, rather, ADD the option in random queue to select the role (DPS, HEAL, TANK). Thus, SWs can heal, DCs and GFs can queue as dps, etc. ad infinitum. This might actually lead to more inventive play with some rather curious party builds.
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  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,083 Arc User
    edited January 2019

    My suggestion would, in contradistinction to the OP, instead of nerfing self healing to force TANK play out of the TANK class and hurt all classes, rather, ADD the option in random queue to select the role (DPS, HEAL, TANK). Thus, SWs can heal, DCs and GFs can queue as dps, etc. ad infinitum. This might actually lead to more inventive play with some rather curious party builds.

    With role bonus and lengthy DPS queue, every SW will queue as heal, and no GF/DC will queue as DPS. They might do it a few times if they do not want to burden the group by depriving them of a tank/heal. But after experiencing long DPS queue time, they will say HAMSTER it and just queue their DPS-build as tank/heal and hope for the best.
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 535 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    So what exactly is wrong with players having an advantage over their opponents, even a small one like this in some aspects of PVE?

    If someone believes they need more of a challenge perhaps they should consider dismissing a few of their companions and mounts, take out some of those rank 14 enchantments and leave a handfull boons behind.

    If anyone thinks any particular content lacks challenge, perhaps the problem isn't with the mechanics of the area or the class attributes of other players...

    Or perhaps those players need to find different areas that will present them with more of a challenge.

    Just sayin' ~

    I think you are missing the point of the poster. Not to put words in their mouths but its about making the tank and healer class relevant again, not about making content harder or easier. Its a change of mechanics that, if it were implemented perfectly, would mostly leave the difficulty level the same but change the class roles and actually require a healer to heal and a tank to tank.

    Personally I would add fixing control or just remove/complete rework the CW and make them a general mage.

  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dolrey said:

    @polaris1986



    Well maybe then it would be better to bring back cap of stats as it was a long time before?

    Perhaps they could go about that in a different way. Remember the way they did AP in Chult. Before all you needed was 65% AP ,but from that point forward one needed 100% AP. They could require such changes going forward in what ever they feel needs limits on any new Mods. without breaking the game at large. Just an idea for changes going forward that they could do without making it so they would need to go back and rework all of this game.
    Post edited by hawkeyel on
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    edited January 2019

    dionchi said:

    So what exactly is wrong with players having an advantage over their opponents, even a small one like this in some aspects of PVE?

    If someone believes they need more of a challenge perhaps they should consider dismissing a few of their companions and mounts, take out some of those rank 14 enchantments and leave a handfull boons behind.

    If anyone thinks any particular content lacks challenge, perhaps the problem isn't with the mechanics of the area or the class attributes of other players...

    Or perhaps those players need to find different areas that will present them with more of a challenge.

    Just sayin' ~

    I think you are missing the point of the poster. Not to put words in their mouths but its about making the tank and healer class relevant again, not about making content harder or easier. Its a change of mechanics that, if it were implemented perfectly, would mostly leave the difficulty level the same but change the class roles and actually require a healer to heal and a tank to tank.

    Personally I would add fixing control or just remove/complete rework the CW and make them a general mage.

    I agree different classes should have more of their (in my mind) intended class specific attributes function in the game - but then again there are a lot of players screaming for "balance" - not just balance but balance between the various classes of characters.

    I'm all for making playable classes relevant when in a party, of course that being said I'm cautiously leery of any suggestion of attempts at "balancing" because inevitably something usually gets screwed up and it seems to take a long time to get it fixed.

    I've also said I believe the concept of "class balance" (at identical character levels) is a myth, because to my knowledge various classes were never intended to have the same or similar damage, resistance, buffing or healing abilities in D&D.

    With very few exceptions, mages and clerics should have less damage resistance, because of the types of armor they are restricted to - where as classes like guardian fighters and great weapon fighters are able to wear stronger armor so they should have more damage resistance.

    By the same token mages should be able to cause more damage with Area of Effect strikes as opposed to the melee classes.

    Clerics should be at the top of the charts for healing and buffing as opposed to most other classes -

    But because of the players demand for "balance" among the various classes, it doesn't appear to be that way.

    I personally wish Neverwinter would require players to be more aware of and concerned with the concept of a "balanced party" when needed, rather than individual "class balance", but it is what it is.

    DD~
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User


    I think you are missing the point of the poster. Not to put words in their mouths but its about making the tank and healer class relevant again, not about making content harder or easier. Its a change of mechanics that, if it were implemented perfectly, would mostly leave the difficulty level the same but change the class roles and actually require a healer to heal and a tank to tank.

    The reason we have this particular issue isn't so much the amount of HEALING in general ... it's the amount of healing from LIFESTEAL that makes the healer classes largely useless for healing and mostly used for buffing. I can honestly say none of my DPS characters need a healer in the party for dungeon survival most of the time (Last fight of CR being one of the few exceptions, as you end up taking alot of damage with nothing to hit). Lifesteal will fully heal me within one rotation or less. So when putting together a group, I generally assume the "healer" role will really be a "Buffer" role. Before Mod 15 dropped on PC there was in fact one of the Devs saying they were looking at the amount of lifesteal .... and that they thought it was too much but that unfortunately, there isn't really an easy solution here as nerfing it too much will mean people cannot survive when they solo ...

    Perhaps a simple solution is to either disable or to apply healing depression to lifesteal in group content. This would make healers essential and make dungeons harder .... but it would probably be wildly unpopular with the player base (not least of all because disabling lifesteal in dungeons would basically make a very popular feat SW path useless).
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  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    The OP is not asking for nerfing lifesteal only, he's asking for healing suppression (from PvP) on all forms of healing even on PvE.
    It's just downright insane, it will kill Devotion OP (the one true healer of the game pretty much) outright and put temp SW in a very bad place (in fact, it might kill that build too), only the DC will survive from this since they're not used for healing anyway.

    It's ironic that the only good suggestion on this thread came as a P.S. Resurrection SCROLLS should not really bypass resurrection sickness, that trivializes all content except k team and makes healers much less desireable. If anything, they should be on a cooldown. But I suppose they're a part of the "pay to win" monetization scheme so this is unlikely to ever change.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,449 Arc User


    I think you are missing the point of the poster. Not to put words in their mouths but its about making the tank and healer class relevant again, not about making content harder or easier. Its a change of mechanics that, if it were implemented perfectly, would mostly leave the difficulty level the same but change the class roles and actually require a healer to heal and a tank to tank.

    The reason we have this particular issue isn't so much the amount of HEALING in general ... it's the amount of healing from LIFESTEAL that makes the healer classes largely useless for healing and mostly used for buffing. I can honestly say none of my DPS characters need a healer in the party for dungeon survival most of the time (Last fight of CR being one of the few exceptions, as you end up taking alot of damage with nothing to hit). Lifesteal will fully heal me within one rotation or less. So when putting together a group, I generally assume the "healer" role will really be a "Buffer" role. Before Mod 15 dropped on PC there was in fact one of the Devs saying they were looking at the amount of lifesteal .... and that they thought it was too much but that unfortunately, there isn't really an easy solution here as nerfing it too much will mean people cannot survive when they solo ...

    Perhaps a simple solution is to either disable or to apply healing depression to lifesteal in group content. This would make healers essential and make dungeons harder .... but it would probably be wildly unpopular with the player base (not least of all because disabling lifesteal in dungeons would basically make a very popular feat SW path useless).
    I think the crucial point here is solo play versus group play. As a GF do I ever use my shield in solo play? Almost never. Should I have to use it in group play - YES. And some boss mobs I use a shield in a pug group. But if the dps is really low and healing is non-existant, then I need to do dps to get my lifesteal in to heal me, then if I miss a big red splat its all over, or indeed if my shield runs out.

    Balancing solo play versus group play is a tricky one
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    The OP is not asking for nerfing lifesteal only, he's asking for healing suppression (from PvP) on all forms of healing even on PvE.
    It's just downright insane, it will kill Devotion OP (the one true healer of the game pretty much) outright and put temp SW in a very bad place (in fact, it might kill that build too), only the DC will survive from this since they're not used for healing anyway.

    It's ironic that the only good suggestion on this thread came as a P.S. Resurrection SCROLLS should not really bypass resurrection sickness, that trivializes all content except k team and makes healers much less desireable. If anything, they should be on a cooldown. But I suppose they're a part of the "pay to win" monetization scheme so this is unlikely to ever change.

    I think he was asking for it for epic dungeons and not in PvE at large so it wouldn't impact solo play, just group play in that specific environment. @checkmatein3 is right in that this isn't the first time the OP has proposed this suggestion. I suspect its impact on the healing classes and builds would probably be dependent on how severe the depression is percentage-wise. I agree that PvP levels of healing depression would probably kill most of the popular builds but a lesser amount could be manageable though undesirable.
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  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 535 Arc User
    Although those playing a melee class might disagree as it will weaken these class, the only class that should be able to life steal should be the SW, I mean that only makes sense as what that class is. Sure, you can have a life drinker weapon and such but given one power, generally they are weaker in other things, tick for tack.

    As far as solo, buff up your companions and mount bonuses for healing. If you are, say, playing a GWF and your companions are all DSP buffing and your mount insignias are DPS buffing and your artifacts and gear is DSP... you are over killing it. Migrate all of that to healing and healing buffing and a GWF doing solo should be just a survivable as any other class. Actually still more so because you can kill the damage creating monsters faster still.

    And I don't use the term "class balance" because that is pointless, why balance these classes (another reason I am firmly against bolting on PVP to a D&D game). Its more about making each class valuable in a group setting, giving each a role.



    As a side note, the stats giving after a run seem to be 90% who was the highest DPS or mob killer. Why is this even important when you have support classes such as buffers and healers and controllers? Personally I find it part of the problem in overstating these stats in a group.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,626 Arc User

    Although those playing a melee class might disagree as it will weaken these class, the only class that should be able to life steal should be the SW, I mean that only makes sense as what that class is. Sure, you can have a life drinker weapon and such but given one power, generally they are weaker in other things, tick for tack.

    As far as solo, buff up your companions and mount bonuses for healing. If you are, say, playing a GWF and your companions are all DSP buffing and your mount insignias are DPS buffing and your artifacts and gear is DSP... you are over killing it. Migrate all of that to healing and healing buffing and a GWF doing solo should be just a survivable as any other class. Actually still more so because you can kill the damage creating monsters faster still.

    And I don't use the term "class balance" because that is pointless, why balance these classes (another reason I am firmly against bolting on PVP to a D&D game). Its more about making each class valuable in a group setting, giving each a role.



    As a side note, the stats giving after a run seem to be 90% who was the highest DPS or mob killer. Why is this even important when you have support classes such as buffers and healers and controllers? Personally I find it part of the problem in overstating these stats in a group.

    Measuring personal performance in group content pre-dates the concept of having a toon whose sole purpose is to buff the party's damage.
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