Hello
Previously I've been writing threads with concrete suggestions about skills or mechanics of some classes. But here I would like to write my opinion about one problem which hid deep in game mechanics and which make game process less intresting and challenging.
The name of this problem is: too high healing. It is good that developers previously informed us that they understand this problem. So I hope that this thread is written on time.
Let's figure out why this helpful mechanics can create troubles? Really from the first view high healing is cool because it make your character stronger and help you to complete game content. But from the other hand it greatly change (how to say it well..) parameters of that content.
It's obvious that in order to give challenge for players whose characters have very high healing developers need to add to game more and more "burst" damage because sustained damage isn't effective against high healing. And actually, if we will take a look at all top dungeons then we will see that "burst" damage is everywhere. There is need to say that oneshots aren't so interesting and it isn't the right challenge that we would like to see.
In the past I also created this picture to illustrate what I am talking about (many of you can recognize here history of class changes in Neverwinter Online).
There are at least 2 ways how to decide this problem and make PvE interesting again.1) The first one looks very difficult even for player who don't engage in development process. This is global rework of all healing and defensive mechanics (which will force developers to take care and about offensive mechanics to fix following problems with balance in PvP). Easier to say first way suppose global rework of all abilities in the game. Looks not so believable right?
2) The second way is much more realistic and easier to do.
To decide this problem I would like to ask to add healing suppression for all epic dungeons (-Lol what?! -Yes, yes!) As we know in PvP troubles associated with immortalyty of some classes or builds gone into past and maybe this change can help to improve and PvE.
So, thank you for your attention. Hope that this thread can help to finally decide main problem of battle process in PvE.
Ps: also maybe it would be better to delete from the game resurrection stones because they make mechanics of many bosses more trivial.
Comments
If someone believes they need more of a challenge perhaps they should consider dismissing a few of their companions and mounts, take out some of those rank 14 enchantments and leave a handfull boons behind.
If anyone thinks any particular content lacks challenge, perhaps the problem isn't with the mechanics of the area or the class attributes of other players...
Or perhaps those players need to find different areas that will present them with more of a challenge.
Just sayin' ~
need a common changes. with dmg buffs/healing/supp parties, els.
When was only 2 support classes it was more harder. but you cant just delite paladins, I think it was begining of supports domination. but now Cryptics add also SW-buffer.
Also new items of 500-550 iL make possible to run most dungeons solo.
Need a new wipe.
You say that need reduse self-healing. But if you'll have an Adept DC 18k iL anyway he will possible runs anything without tanks, just need a strong GWF also with 18k. So untill there too much Power...
But if breake boundins and companions... will not so much powersharing, not much recovery and crits. Dailies should not be a regular. But aslo you need do delite OP wis aura, DC passive and monts bonus. With this cuts we can expect more interesting game.
yes, i playing DC ~11k, (its a spesial nooby DC) often I run t3 dungeons FBI or CC and it more ... challenging... that runs with my main ~15,5k DC. And thats all. but being 11-12k support you can only runs dundeons like CC in random. Becaise noone will go random Co9G with 1 DC/GF 12k, and there no requests from const parties for such DC.
Also I dont sure that little DPS class without boundings will possible not die and enough damage for run game mechanicks of tomp Orcus or Ras Nsi with summoning mobs.
inho.
As other posters have pointed out, it is entirely within your power to make the game harder/more challenging for yourself if that is what you desire without adding more grind and misery to a game that is already rife with both. That eToS too easy? Swap out those r12-r14 enchantments with r6s-r8s. Replace your legendary pet(s) with non-legendary ones. Drop the r14 Bonding runestones. Drop the legendary mount and its powers. Dust off your old inventory stores and equip 300 IL gear, etc. You'll find all the challenge you want, can handle, and then some.
Finally, if other "great MMOs" do what you want why are you not playing those games?
I would love another game reset.. but instead they nerf and resell power.. its what the commonly do.
most mmos have a hard time after say year 2-3 max.. this game has no difference, other games do general resets every 1.5 or 2 years to make thigns a bit fresher.. they usually opt old content as solo play at that time and re release a whole stretch of new stuff, but this game has historically not done well with that..
My opionon? they release far too many campaigns.. they should axe them to 1 a year and actually do them right.. not 2-3 a year.. that is ludicrous and makes far too much busy work and lousy coding and too much power.
I dont want to bust on them too bad, because. almost eveyr mmo has mistakes.. some are huge and colossal..
I just dont want another grind campaign like mod 10 again.. that is my biggest concern.. so boring.. SO very boring
my suggestion..is to make another general game reset.. up the level, introduce a slew of new dungeons (5-6) new skirms (4-5) leave the old ones in at current lvl 70.
But whatever, they wont, pipe dreams and all that.
Or all players that matter, anyway. I've been playing this game since early 2014, and the types of changes you recommend in your original post would pretty much kill any interest I have in this game.
As you MAY recall, the last time the devs implemented a "reset" (much less dramatic than the one you propose) was when they bumped end game content to level 70 in the EE campaign.
Need I remind you how that worked out?
I've got a 15.2k warlock and a 13.2k OP, while my wife has a 15.8k warlock. Our dungeon runs only look like this if we are doing easy, tier 1 dungeons (etos, esot, malabog's, etc).
The OP wants less self healing because TANKs run 0 defense and 0 deflect.
First, this is absolutely not true. The tank classes (OP and GF) have learned exactly how much damage resistance is needed from a party and have tailored their stats accordingly. After you hit a certain DR, anything over that amount is EXTRA (in anything except hardcore mode) in PvE. In hardcore mode, OPs and GFs modify their stats to function in the role to prevent party deaths (for example, changing a rank 10 lifesteal boon for a rank 10 defense boon), or something like that. Changing self healing will in no way change anything with regard to this. All it will do is hurt certain classes that rely more on self healing, or other classes or builds that actually heal and find utility in a variety of party setups.
Second, TWO stats were dramatically changed at the release of mod 6 (regeneration and life steal) to prevent much of the self- healing. Because of power creep, it is possible for multiple classes to stack life steal with the life steal % heal to get big heals. However, asking to adjust this would again, affect all classes, and not just the few imaginary "TANKS who have 0 defense and deflect."
Third, some TANK builds are actually BUFFERs (OP with power and hit points) or DPS (specialized GFs). To secretly complain against these two builds by stating they have 0 defense or 0 deflect is unfortunate. OPs that go as buffers can random queue via loadouts as a TANK or HEALER, and thus the party (not the marginalized stat) determines the role. The dps GF class cannot random queue via loadout as anything but a TANK, and therefore usually only finds roles in premade parties that would not affect your game play at all in PvE. Even though I do NOT and NEVER WILL have a dps GF loadout, I NEVER argue against the build, if the player so decides to play the GF that way (with all the benefits and consequences thereof). Dps GFs do not have 0 defense and deflect, but do not build for it because it fits not their choice. If this post is a secret shot against removing the possibility of the dps GF, I am against the OP.
Fourth, TANK classes (the OP and the GF) are required for any random queue, so they are always in high demand. The videos on the internet (especially on the GF side) are dominated by dps GFs who show how to build pure dps or slightly hybrid dps GFs. But, there are knowledgeable guides on how to build GFs that utilize defense and deflect without being useless. Nerfing self healing will in no way EXPAND the role or change the gameplay of the TANK role.
Fifth, the TANK role is necessary in hardcore mode, where there is zero running head. The tank controls the speed. In anything non hardcore, the simple fact exists that the need to mitigating enemy damage is not as desired as buffing party damage. Even with reduced self healing, this equational AND design fact exists thoroughly in the game. There is only 1 truly TANK check mechanic in the whole game (2nd boss ravenloft, where the aggro of the tank better take that IBS hit or the boss spins into immunity). The other TANK-like attacks (mSVA, FBI) do not really need a TANK. And HEALING checks (books vs sisters at first boss ravenloft, final boss ravenloft, mSP final boss last stage) are more abundant.
Sixth, the devs have required the Trinity of MMORPG for random queue (tank, healer, and dps), but in reality they have not expanded the ability of players to self-identify in their own build. My suggestion would, in contradistinction to the OP, instead of nerfing self healing to force TANK play out of the TANK class and hurt all classes, rather, ADD the option in random queue to select the role (DPS, HEAL, TANK). Thus, SWs can heal, DCs and GFs can queue as dps, etc. ad infinitum. This might actually lead to more inventive play with some rather curious party builds.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
He now specifically wants to nerf Self-Healing on Healers (The DC and the OP Devo) so that GF Tacticians (in his mind) are forced to play with more defense and deflect (which in his mind will produce less AP buff for the party) and open a slot for OP Protectors (who are unwanted in any party as a tank). He has also singled out specific powers on the GF (ITF) that are so universally desired in parties, that to not use them is grounds for an instant kick. Which means, nerf nerf nerf.
This OP has a habit of putting forth nerf requests at a time when devs are formulating upcoming modules (check his history), and specifically he focuses on the GF, even though he claims to play it. His post repeats bad information for builds for GF Tactician and then says that a bad build is the reason why the GF needs fixing. So, let me answer his claims from the Tactician GF (which I do play in PvE for RQ, RIQ, and RAQ, and any other weekly, besides hardcore mode.
First, there are guides that teach reducing damage resistance (not necessarily deflect) for Tactician GF builds in relation to hit points while INCREASING life steal (with the SH boon specifically) because the formula for the capstone on the Tact build WILL give more AP points to the party based on what is perceived as more damage. However, this is INCORRECT. The damage resistance of the GF Tact is taken as a AP multiplier in relation to the hp damage. So, there is a relationship between HP max, HP damage, and DR. It is not as simple as reduce DR, keep LS high, keep HP low, and get max Action Point buff. The capstone has been misunderstood by almost everyone in the GF community for years, and the same misunderstanding is again repeated in the post above. To see a correct presentation on the formula, I invite you to look at Integrity's youtube video where he DOES explain how the capstone formula works. Therefore, reducing defense to get lower DR actually might produce less action points than a tact GF with higher DR (and a higher modifier). Since the formula is based on damage taken, a GF Tact who runs Knights Valor to absorb as much damage as possible (thus running in a tank role) will produce more AP from the capstone for the party than a GF tact without KV who has too low DR to run it.
Second, most GFs who assume DR needs to be low, also have a choice to increase HP or keep HP low as well. The lower the max HP, the greater the AP capstone bonus, but the squishier the GF Tactician to mobs. Thus, the GF is sacrificing defense and HP for lifesteal in this build, and become, for the party, what is arguably a pure Tact buffer. There are risks with this kind of build, and guides that I have read or watched that argue for this do explain that whereas the build is viable, it requires high end GFs with particular slots. Moreover, this GF build is usually reserved by players who DO want to make videos of the fastest speed runs possible in PREMADE groups. I do not know of any GF pure Tact that regularly runs in random queues. Most have hybrid builds of some kind.
Third, there are EASIER ways to get BUFF from the GF without sacrificing defense, deflect, lowering HP, etc. that I will not detail here. If you do not know what I am talking about, you should try GF Tact with high recovery. Again, I will not spill the secrets here, but it can be run with any hybrid GF tact.
Fourth, if a GF Tact did run pure Tact setup with low hp, low defense, etc, that GF would need a tank to keep it from dying. The 'target' HP suggested in most guides is 200k hp, but pure buff Tact GFs would try and go lower. The playstyle for this kind of pure buff GF will be vastly different than one with average DR, 200k+hp, etc., and the party makeup, especially an OP protector, would be highly beneficial. If the pure GF tact were running KV and absorbing 50% damage to max the AP, then the mitigation of that damage will need to come from a separate source (like OP prot) or must be a constant target for healing. Or, the pure GF tact build would need to avoid damage. There is NO build where a pure GF tact's self healing via lifesteal will be able to both MAXIMIZE AP gain in the capstone and absorb damage for that capstone while also dealing damage to proc lifesteal to keep itself alive WITHOUT additional support (a really good healer or powerful tank). I do not play pure GF buffs because this setup will usually keep me out of runs in RQ (a GF can only queue as a tank, and an OP prot will queue as a tank). Thus, my solution, without requiring ANY change to actually function in ANY class, would permit the GF to queue as dps (or add a buff slot) and let the OP protector queue as the tank.
Fifth, as mentioned in my previous post, it is GAME design and random queue limitation that forces these choices. I have argued elsewhere passionately about the GF protector's uselessness and wanting it to be a viable path in the game. The reason hybrid GF protectors and more pure tanks do not exist in the game is because of the formulaic and mob/boss mechanic designs in the game. If by formula, mitigating enemy damage is not as effective as buffing party damage, then play choices will always drift to the MOST EFFECTIVE TACTIC AVAILABLE (META). Pre mod 6 and pre power creep had some amazing dungeon mechanics that required tanking, control, aggro, kiting, which were all removed in mod 6. Show me ONE video of anyone who EVER soloed Dread Vault. Just one! It does not exist, because even in mod 5, with all its power creep, NO one could solo that dungeon. And there was NO mechanic on the boss (like sisters) that prevented solo runs. It was just too difficult. Constant mob spawns, massive aoes, small fighting area, distance and melee targetting...that dungeon is in my opinion, the gold standard for Neverwinter. It was perfect in every way but one (*cough...rewards...cough*). With the re-release of the old dungeons coming in Story of Old, I hope that the developers will finally PERMANENTLY bring back everything that was lost in mod 6. I say this whether there is a level cap raise with mod 16 or not. The reason why TANKS are not needed so much is that mob spawns at boss are so limited. Bosses went from boss + massive mobs to just a boss that does super huge hits and maybe a couple random mobs that can be prepared for easily. Any player who has only experienced Neverwinter post mod 6 has no idea how that module completely changed the philosophy of the game. I still remember kiting mobs in epic Frozen Heart for 45 minutes while the party took down the boss. Tank classes will make a reappearance when game design requires them, not WHEN a few stats are nerfed here and there. CWs complain about the same thing with regards to control. Why is there a need for control when the only thing that matters is a single target boss who is immune. Watch old Dread Vault videos and see how absolutely necessary a CW was (or 2) that had perfect control and game play.
So, in conclusion, I believe the OP's post needed an answer because of the upcoming release of mod 16. Nerfing stats is not the answer. Whatever happens to level cap in mod 16, I care not. What is of more concern is permanently introducing ways that make game play in all the roles (DPS, Healer, buff, and tank) viable according to the choices of the player and that is actually needed by game design. The cookie cutter, single boss (anti dps, yet dps check) mechanics you have setup do not solve the issue. Open random queue for personal identification as the player wants. I believe this will bring more interest to the game, more experimentation, more positive run experiences, and more income for Cryptic. Reducing functionality is the opposite path, and to suggest reduction based on bad information is the worst of all. I am against the OP's suggested solution.
Cheers all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Personally I would add fixing control or just remove/complete rework the CW and make them a general mage.
I'm all for making playable classes relevant when in a party, of course that being said I'm cautiously leery of any suggestion of attempts at "balancing" because inevitably something usually gets screwed up and it seems to take a long time to get it fixed.
I've also said I believe the concept of "class balance" (at identical character levels) is a myth, because to my knowledge various classes were never intended to have the same or similar damage, resistance, buffing or healing abilities in D&D.
With very few exceptions, mages and clerics should have less damage resistance, because of the types of armor they are restricted to - where as classes like guardian fighters and great weapon fighters are able to wear stronger armor so they should have more damage resistance.
By the same token mages should be able to cause more damage with Area of Effect strikes as opposed to the melee classes.
Clerics should be at the top of the charts for healing and buffing as opposed to most other classes -
But because of the players demand for "balance" among the various classes, it doesn't appear to be that way.
I personally wish Neverwinter would require players to be more aware of and concerned with the concept of a "balanced party" when needed, rather than individual "class balance", but it is what it is.
Perhaps a simple solution is to either disable or to apply healing depression to lifesteal in group content. This would make healers essential and make dungeons harder .... but it would probably be wildly unpopular with the player base (not least of all because disabling lifesteal in dungeons would basically make a very popular feat SW path useless).
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
It's just downright insane, it will kill Devotion OP (the one true healer of the game pretty much) outright and put temp SW in a very bad place (in fact, it might kill that build too), only the DC will survive from this since they're not used for healing anyway.
It's ironic that the only good suggestion on this thread came as a P.S. Resurrection SCROLLS should not really bypass resurrection sickness, that trivializes all content except k team and makes healers much less desireable. If anything, they should be on a cooldown. But I suppose they're a part of the "pay to win" monetization scheme so this is unlikely to ever change.
Balancing solo play versus group play is a tricky one
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
As far as solo, buff up your companions and mount bonuses for healing. If you are, say, playing a GWF and your companions are all DSP buffing and your mount insignias are DPS buffing and your artifacts and gear is DSP... you are over killing it. Migrate all of that to healing and healing buffing and a GWF doing solo should be just a survivable as any other class. Actually still more so because you can kill the damage creating monsters faster still.
And I don't use the term "class balance" because that is pointless, why balance these classes (another reason I am firmly against bolting on PVP to a D&D game). Its more about making each class valuable in a group setting, giving each a role.
As a side note, the stats giving after a run seem to be 90% who was the highest DPS or mob killer. Why is this even important when you have support classes such as buffers and healers and controllers? Personally I find it part of the problem in overstating these stats in a group.