Link to CW MOD 15 Guide

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Comments

  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    dunno if I agree on the snail mount (for my circumstances anyway, a toon that is being built entirely for codg) from my experience as a do, if you have 20ish k recovery already the ops and dcs are providing so much additional recovery that you don't need anything. everything is coming back super fast already. wouldn't a rex be better for over all killing of the baby?
  • theraxin#5169
    theraxin#5169 Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Great guide, however I'd point out that on the CA advantage bonus, 1200 to 1800 makes 9% into 9,9%, which is way less than an actual 0,9% damage, however with 200k power 600 power actually makes up for 0,003% of damage, so it's a "free" bump.

    Wouldn't that be about the same?

    At 200k, 600 is 0.25% dps increase (not rounded to 400)
    At 200 severity + CA 0.9% CA will be 0.3% damage increase (Actually more, because that 0.9% is increased by the boon, so it becomes 0.99%)

    Though I don't think in practice it's important, I'm sure I make more mistakes than 0.3% damage here or there.
    The first is true, somehow I've just went 600/200k and called it a day :D

    Well, it's not a big thing then, but has some upside:
    -As stats grow and with how powersharing works, 600 power gets less and less useful. 200k was a reference a few mods ago, but I don't play DC.
    -The 3 mentioned artifact makes optimizing stats very flexible. If you are not running the Artificer build, high recovery is way more important than power, so Fragmented key loses some of it's charm.
    -The blue dragon heart is useful to proc off artificer insignia bonus with the intentional miss (however black is better for that). And helps a lot for making high recovery and crit.
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @thefiresidecat said:
    > dunno if I agree on the snail mount (for my circumstances anyway, a toon that is being built entirely for codg) from my experience as a do, if you have 20ish k recovery already the ops and dcs are providing so much additional recovery that you don't need anything. everything is coming back super fast already. wouldn't a rex be better for over all killing of the baby?

    The snail provides a separate source of AP; regardless of how much Recovery you have, the snail is highly impactful.

    Rex’s combat power is a good one, but your average Cradle group is already debuffing the living hamster out of the Atropal, so having the Rex debuff or not is whatever.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    vorphied said:

    > @thefiresidecat said:

    > dunno if I agree on the snail mount (for my circumstances anyway, a toon that is being built entirely for codg) from my experience as a do, if you have 20ish k recovery already the ops and dcs are providing so much additional recovery that you don't need anything. everything is coming back super fast already. wouldn't a rex be better for over all killing of the baby?



    The snail provides a separate source of AP; regardless of how much Recovery you have, the snail is highly impactful.



    Rex’s combat power is a good one, but your average Cradle group is already debuffing the living hamster out of the Atropal, so having the Rex debuff or not is whatever.

    oh, I see now reading the tool tip. for some reason I thought it was the mounts combat power so like once every minute didn't seem that great but after using your daily.. yeah I can see how that's something. wasn't planning on buying a leg mount for this unless It turns out to be my favorite toon or I get lucky and drop one.. but it looks like the purple flail snail still has 15% probably still worth while. 200k is a lot more palatable than 6.3 mil for a single purpose toon,

    edit. I forgot I have a glorious resurge epic mount pack in inventory so free! lol hmmm gorgon has the same equip power. now to figure out which one has better functionality via insignia
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    Oh I already have plenty of Recovery. And CoI in a regular slot is sufficient if all you want to do is maintain Chill; I just dislike the rotation.



    Elemental Reinforcement would have to be pried from my cold, dead hands.

    I do have a SS Thaum build that I am playing around with as a pure DPS build. Still tweaking it ATM but it is showing some promise. The only

    @thefiresidecat

    With stats like that and if you'll get gear and companions with damage bonuses (Hag's Rags, Terrored Grips, Shadowstalker/Offensive Action rings, Razorwood, Archons, etc.) and high rank bondings plus weapon enchant (Trans+ Fey or Perfect+ Vorpal) you can safely run DPS so scratch the pure debuffer stuff and keep Chilling Presence 24/7, plus you can as well run SS in AoE. For sure make SSC to use as main for damage, Atropal/Black Dragon is good in AoE. For CoDG there always should be at least one other class that can force CA (GF, HR, GWF, Templock) s

    o keep in mind there's no reason to run Renegade in mod 14. Run MoF Opp/Thaum single target loadout (with Focused Wizardry) so you can also contribute with more damage and more reliable Controlled Momentum buff.

    I usually run AoE powers until cubes - Chilling Presence and Combustive Action, Fanning the Flame on mastery, Icy Terrain, Disintegrate, Steal Time. When mobs spawn: FtF > Dis > IT > OF > ST > Dis. The first Dis before IT and OF simply to proc Elemental Reinforcement for arcane element to also buff OF and ST. Before cubes switch to single target: Chilling Presence and Swath of Destruction, Ray of Enfeeblement on mastery, Icy Terrain or Chill Strike (depending on the group), Disintegrate, Fanning the Flame. Scorching Burst to apply smolder, Ray of Frost when other powers are on cooldown. IT vs CS - depending if group is slower or faster with better burst and buff window.

    On bosses in T9G it's the same, though if you run in specific group compositions with no one else being able to force CA - on Withers it may be better to run Rene since it's not convenient to position for CA there. In AoE you should be fine running either SS or MoF. Mod 14 the difference is not as big as in mod 15 due to multiproc of AoC and Shatter Strike on Opp. Personally I liked to run MoF Opp in AoE when someone else was providing CA or SS Rene/Opp when there wasn't reliable source of CA. MoF Opp - extra debuff for increased damage of AoC and Shatter Strike, SS Rene - increased damage of Storm Spell procs from ST with Masterful feat. But recently it's very rare to run in group with no good other source of CA so I mostly run SS Opp in AoE with Sudden Storm on mastery, Icy Terrain, Disintegrate, Steal Time. Mostly going: Storm Pillar > Dis > IT > OF > SuS > ST > Dis. Until mod 15 both SS and MoF have similar DPS potential in AoE, depending on content and group composition one can be better than the other.



    all I'm doing with it until mod 15 is levelling up boons I don't have yet. (although I have most campaigns) and farming for things like hags rags and maybe quing a few Random ques to get used to rotations. got the shadow stalker, offensive action, I have razorwood siege and tiger and one archon. willow wisp in the last slot, to be replaced with an archon or something better eventually, the four good ones are legendary. bondings are already 14 and I'm running t fey. (I switched some stuff over from my hr since I'm still farming with my dc)
    This toon is meant as a replacement for my Do which they aren't going to want once mod 15 hits. I can't stick the platform with my hr, but the cw dodge seems to work pretty near identically to the do. I tested it and had no serious problems sticking the platform. but in the mean time I'm just sticking with my do for farming codg because he's already 17.6 with rex. why mess with a good thing if I don't have to :)

    but for the rest of this mod I'll switch mof opp thaum load out like you suggest above and I won't go pure debuff in mod 15. I went single target in feats. and have mastery: ray of enfeeblement, icy terrain, disintegrate, fanning the flame.

    the one thing is this is a drow toon. should I keep it drow or make him human or tief for mod 15? for now I'm not too worried since I'm not doing anything to serious with him.

    ty for the help!
    DO are still wanted; they still provide a 10% buff and can still use BtS with FF from the AC. The only big hit is around 10% damage buff from TI. The DO is now more effective as a DPS as they get a 30% buff from TI instead of the current 10%. If I had to form a group I would take a DO over a CW, every time.

    Not sure how you ran your DO but with the changes to TI if you have around 30-40K power you can easily run as a AC DC and be more effective than a DO come next mod. There is still that option and with the winter event you should easily be able to pick up some respec tokens.

    As for CW, it is a fun class to play and has a bit more micro management to it than say a DC, GF, OP, etc... but even with CW needing to micro manage a bit more than other classes, playing become a bit boring. The only class that I think is better than a CW is a HR Trapper but that build has been changed so much that I won't even play my HR any more.

    For Mod 15 the only thing I have to do is for my GF, DC and CW is simply complete the campaign and than I will have plenty of free time to play other games, like ESO. In fact, I'm still diving deeper into the ESO and the more I play the more I like it. I'm nearly at the max Champion Points for gear and I'm not even done the first alliance area. That game requires a lot more to be effective and good; there is also way more choices in how I play or build my character.

    I hope the devs add more flavor to NWO for classes and take a few pages from ESO and provide us a bit more stories than the daily repetitive quest.
  • xcessiveforce40
    xcessiveforce40 Member Posts: 246 Arc User
    @trzebiat#2067 and @mebengalsfan#9264 - for a CW which currently runs the Dead set (barovian), is it worth paying roughly 1.2 mill AD to get the MC set to prep for additional recovery or is it better to go with the usual Orcus boring set? Thanks again for all the healthy discussion and guides. Nice to see the CW forums picking up after such a slow period.
    Founder: Xcessiveforce GF, Xcessiveheals DC, XcessiveRange HR, XcessiveArcana CW, XcessiveStab TR
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    @trzebiat#2067 and @mebengalsfan#9264 - for a CW which currently runs the Dead set (barovian), is it worth paying roughly 1.2 mill AD to get the MC set to prep for additional recovery or is it better to go with the usual Orcus boring set? Thanks again for all the healthy discussion and guides. Nice to see the CW forums picking up after such a slow period.

    I have played around with three sets: MC3, Orcus and broken (Owlbear Waist and Company Raider cloak) sets

    With the changes to MC gear in mod 15 the MC3 and MC2 sets offer the most stats out of any set. You also gain an additional 1.5K recovery and 3K movement when in dungeons. The later can help you stay out of AoE strong attacks without the need to use stamina which can help produce more damage when using the enduring boots. The recovery is a nice to have especially in mod 15.

    The broken set is a decent set. It offers balanced stats and both pieces have recovery. This is good in mod 15 but not to the same degree as a MC set. What the broken set offers is a constant 6% damage boost from INT which is higher than the MC and is not as good as the Orcus set bonus damage. Overall if you have this set and don't want to upgrade to the Orcus or MC you can stick with this set and if you have lantern you can get a 2 piece set from the waist and artifact, not a great bonus but it can help.

    Orcus set IMO is BiS mod 14 and 15. The difference between Orcus set and the other two sets is that the Orcus set is best in burn groups; otherwise I would use the MC or the Broken set.

    If you plan to play as a buffer I recommend one of the two MC sets. If you plan to play as a main DPS you need the Orcus set. If you are not sure and don't want to spend much on the character than I would go with the broken set. It is a nice mix between the MC and the Orcus sets. It has balanced stats, similar to the MC set and it does offer the best straight damage % increase and if you are human you gain even more damage from Learned Spellcaster.

    I play mostly buffer it is why I run the dread and not a Fey. It is also why I use MC and not Orcus. I find running as a buffer it is easier to get into groups. I have been top DPS in CoDG as a CW buffer. It happens regularly given most DPS tend to fall off.

    If you do plan to play to the changes in mod 15 I recommend the Heart of the Blue and Black dragons for the added 2K recovery.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    > @thefiresidecat said:

    > dunno if I agree on the snail mount (for my circumstances anyway, a toon that is being built entirely for codg) from my experience as a do, if you have 20ish k recovery already the ops and dcs are providing so much additional recovery that you don't need anything. everything is coming back super fast already. wouldn't a rex be better for over all killing of the baby?



    The snail provides a separate source of AP; regardless of how much Recovery you have, the snail is highly impactful.



    Rex’s combat power is a good one, but your average Cradle group is already debuffing the living hamster out of the Atropal, so having the Rex debuff or not is whatever.

    If he is to get a legendary I recommend the bat and using the Flail Snail equipped power. It is not as effective as the Coastal Snail but the difference between them will not break the CW build and having the bat is better as it is not only a debuff but also a damage buff for the player. When I went after a legendary mount for my CW, I got a Coastal Snail as I saw it going up in price and it has. I got mine when it was under 7M AD and now legendary glorious packs on PS4 are around 10M, which may continue to go up.

    With that said and me now hoarding my keys, I'm hoping by the summer event to pop open a legendary box and pick the swarm.
  • trzebiat#2067
    trzebiat#2067 Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    @theraxin#5169 I also like Blue Dragon. Shame there's no other artifact with crit/recovery. The only one similar is Tiamat Orb. One artifact with CA bonus can help with getting that CA stat above 1200. I currently use Black and Blue Dragon for stats.

    @hastati96 Storm Spell is not good at single target without DoT powers. You won't be able to reliably proc it like in AoE with lots of hits from IT, OF, ST, CoI. That's why even before mod 15 MoF is single target DPS spec because Swath and Smolder are more reliable damage increase. And as a proc it won't help with buffing Dis. When running SS in CoDG it would be good to use Storm Spell and Evo in Elevator before switching to Chilling Presence and Arcane Power Field for single.

    @thefiresidecat For CW always Snail first.

    @xcessiveforce40 since it's cheaper go for Orcus. There's always a way to get more recovery.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited January 2019

    @theraxin#5169 I also like Blue Dragon. Shame there's no other artifact with crit/recovery. The only one similar is Tiamat Orb. One artifact with CA bonus can help with getting that CA stat above 1200. I currently use Black and Blue Dragon for stats.

    @hastati96 Storm Spell is not good at single target without DoT powers. You won't be able to reliably proc it like in AoE with lots of hits from IT, OF, ST, CoI. That's why even before mod 15 MoF is single target DPS spec because Swath and Smolder are more reliable damage increase. And as a proc it won't help with buffing Dis. When running SS in CoDG it would be good to use Storm Spell and Evo in Elevator before switching to Chilling Presence and Arcane Power Field for single.

    @thefiresidecat For CW always Snail first.

    @xcessiveforce40 since it's cheaper go for Orcus. There's always a way to get more recovery.

    The best encounter powers based on the changes for SS or MoF will be Mastery slot would be RoE or CI, Entangling Force (for more AP gain), Disintegrate, and IT or RoE if CI is on tab.

    Now if you are able to keep up chill stacks without the need of IT or CI on tab you can swap it over to Icy Ray on Tab for additional damage as it is the second hardest hitting encounter power for a CW.


    Because of scorching burst the MoF build will do more damage than a SS build.

    Since I have so many loadouts I will be setting one up as a Thaum/Opp that will be using the Chilling Control feat and Transendent Master feats to max the damage of Icy Ray. The setup will be Icy Ray on tab, Sudden Storm, Disintegrate and Entangling Force with Chilling Presence and Arcane Power Field. This is a single target setup and Icy Ray already gets a nice bonus from being on tab it will get an additional 25% damage bonus when used on a single target due to transcendent master.

    I'm pretty sure it will not be as good as the Renegade builds, but with so many loadouts why not try it out and see how it fairs.
  • mitchell#9396
    mitchell#9396 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    im just not feeling cw this mod and it seems to complex to play now. I have only been playing for 3 months and my only toon is a cw but the changes make me feel like shelfing it and playing something more simple like a gwf which seems to be better dsp and no need to worry about keeping chill stacks up to do good dps. Now im reading a cw needs 20k recovery along with all the other stats ap crit power?
    I feel pretty discourged with my cw now and the dsp seems like its not worth the effort when a gwf can do more dps for less effort but ill try to adjust my build and see what happens first.
    Post edited by mitchell#9396 on
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    im just not feeling cw this mod and it seems to complex to play now. I have only been playing for 3 months and my only toon is a cw but the changes make me feel like shelfing it and playing something more simple like a gwf which seems to be better dsp and no need to worry about keeping chill stacks up to do good dps. Now im reading a cw needs 20k recovery along with all the other stats ap crit power?

    I feel pretty discourged with my cw now and the dsp seems like its not worth the effort when a gwf can do more dps for less effort but ill try to adjust my build and see what happens first.

    Even with this change the class is far from complex. Go play ESO where you have two bars with 10 abilites and two dailies to manage and knowing when to use which bar and which daily. Along with that you also have way more options when you build your character up from playing as a tank, healer or DPS and than as a DPS you can go with using Magic or focus on Stamina/weapons damage.

    The CW changes add some complexity but it is still far from complex. Even in its current state the CW has a bit more to it than other classes as we have specific feats, encounters, personals, and dailies for single target and others for AoE. The update simply changes how we spec our CW. Instead of focusing on Arm Pen > Crit > Power > Recovery it now goes Arm Pen > Crit > Recovery > Power.

    This change encourages CW to swap over to a higher recovery build to max out their damage from dailies and encounter powers.

    When mod 15 hits console I will test out the Hag Rags vs the Armor of Quick Recovery.

  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    When we theorycraft CW in mod 15, it sounds engaging and rewarding; when I go back to play it, it feels less so.

    CW now fits better with a boss speed-kill setup with its enhanced personal damage modifiers, but I feel that much of the “complexity” is superficial since all we are doing is cycling powers in order to buff the one that we really care about (Disintegrate).

    I’m also (still) disgruntled that we went from one everything tree straight to another one. Renegade being the main DPS makes just as little sense as it did when Oppressor was the thing except that, IMO, Oppressor had more entertaining feats.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    When we theorycraft CW in mod 15, it sounds engaging and rewarding; when I go back to play it, it feels less so.



    CW now fits better with a boss speed-kill setup with its enhanced personal damage modifiers, but I feel that much of the “complexity” is superficial since all we are doing is cycling powers in order to buff the one that we really care about (Disintegrate).



    I’m also (still) disgruntled that we went from one everything tree straight to another one. Renegade being the main DPS makes just as little sense as it did when Oppressor was the thing except that, IMO, Oppressor had more entertaining feats.

    I agree with your sentiments on how the CW is moving from one paragon feat tree to another.

    For mod 9-12b it was Thaum or Renegade (if you needed critical chance) to be a DPS with the weapon enchantment being Vorpal or Dread until mod 11 when weapon enchantments were updated which made Lighting the most viable for us.

    Mod 13 and 14 the DPS build went to being a hybrid build by swapping from Thaum to Oppressor and the weapon enchantment went from Lighting to Fey

    Mod 15 our build is now Renegade with Fey still as the weapon enchantments.

    CW went from the base DPS path Thaum, to the Hybrid Oppressor and now to the buff path Renegade just to play as a DPS on a CW. With the damage not really improving all that much and with each change not only did we need to modify our builds but also our enchantments.

    When mod 13 landed no other class really need to make the changes like a CW had to do to be relevant as a DPS in mod 13 and 14. Than mod 15 the only classes that needs to make changes to have proper DPS builds are the CW and the TR, though this is the first move the TR has had in a while to be relevant as a DPS.

    Kinda annoying, a waste of resources and is why I see many CW leaving NWO or dropping it for a OP or DC.

  • trzebiat#2067
    trzebiat#2067 Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    The biggest issue is both Thaum and Opp trees need a rework to make them have a clear role. I have some ideas. Rene is fine as a hybrid buff/DPS tree with focus on randomness of buffs. Thaum should be pure DPS path that doesn't provide any group utility, focusing on self buffs and not procs e.g. increasing effectiveness of some of DPS passives overall instead of just single powers. Opp should be support tree focused on buff, both DR and damage debuff plus control and control immunity. Since control is basically dead in end game content and bosses, what would actually be helpful is being able to provide at least control immunity similar to AA.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    The biggest issue is both Thaum and Opp trees need a rework to make them have a clear role. I have some ideas. Rene is fine as a hybrid buff/DPS tree with focus on randomness of buffs. Thaum should be pure DPS path that doesn't provide any group utility, focusing on self buffs and not procs e.g. increasing effectiveness of some of DPS passives overall instead of just single powers. Opp should be support tree focused on buff, both DR and damage debuff plus control and control immunity. Since control is basically dead in end game content and bosses, what would actually be helpful is being able to provide at least control immunity similar to AA.

    Simple solution to fix all three paths...

    From the Thaum tree path move Transcendent Master to Oppressor - this would reinforce the whole oppressor build as the chill/control build.
    From the Oppressor tree path place Transcendent Master where Control Momentum currently is and move Control Momentum to the Renegade Tree path that has the random bonus damage feat.
    From the Renegade you move the newest feat to Thaum path where Transcendent Master once existed.

    Doing these move you have clearly defined the CW roles.

    Thaum DPS - quite a few feats designed to boost damage
    Renegade Buffer - feats and capstone focused on group buffs
    Oppressor - Controller/Chill build designed for PVP

    Not much really needs to be done other than moving these feats. These feat moves alone would make playing a CW fun again and I would actually be able to use all 8 of my loadouts.

    SS Renegade AoE
    SS Renegade Single Target
    MoF Renegade Single Target
    SS Thaum AoE
    SS Thaum Single Target
    MoF Thaum Single Target
    SS Oppressor AoE
    MoF Oppressor Single Target

    Mod 15 out of my 8 loadouts I will be using 3. Next mod is worst than mod 13/14. Right now I use 4 possible loadouts.

    Solo I use SS Renegade
    Dungeons I use SS Oppressor until a boss than I use MoF Oppressor
    CoDG/MSVA depending upon the group I may use MoF Renegade, SS Oppressor, MoF Oppressor or SS Renegade
    PVP I use SS Oppressor or MoF Oppressor

    I want options and come mod 15 I will have less options on my CW than I do now. Please devs fix the CW and give the CW its options back.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    Tried out the Renegade builds in a few dungeons. It is ok but I felt it was lacking some ump to it. It felt stronger than what we had in mod 14 but still missing that OMG WOW factor.

    I than tried my Thaum build that I made and took that for a spin and it did so much better.

    I than got with a group and we did 10 T9s. We ran 5 with me on my renegade builds and than 5 with me on my Thaum builds. No change to the group other my builds. The difference is that the runs went much quicker with the Thaum builds and my damage was up by 20% over my other build.

    Renegade builds
    SS Renegade for AoE
    MoF Renegade for Single Target

    Thaum Builds
    Both Thaum build were Thaum/Opp.

    I kept my two Oppressor builds and we tried that out. OMG....the oppressor AoE build is ok but the single target was useless, maybe good as a 2nd CW buffer if you already have a renegade.



  • lukejones77
    lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    edited January 2019

    Tried out the Renegade builds in a few dungeons. It is ok but I felt it was lacking some ump to it. It felt stronger than what we had in mod 14 but still missing that OMG WOW factor.

    I than tried my Thaum build that I made and took that for a spin and it did so much better.

    I than got with a group and we did 10 T9s. We ran 5 with me on my renegade builds and than 5 with me on my Thaum builds. No change to the group other my builds. The difference is that the runs went much quicker with the Thaum builds and my damage was up by 20% over my other build.
    ...

    This is all a real head scratcher for me. I really don't get how you can have so many builds, and get a good comparative feel for their relative performance, based on some runs you do with various groups.

    We all know that the buffs/debuffs provided to you by the group you're running with in any particular run tend to make a massive difference to the "WOW Feel Factor" for the resultant effect of attacks you made.

    We also know that the relative strength of your DPS vs other DPS in any specific run have a massive effect of the "WOW Feel Factor" you get, because other strong DPS tend to "take away" the effect you feel, and you end up having much less effect on the outcome.
    If you've pugged enough T2 and run into aggresive GWFs geared to your level, for example, you've almost certainly experienced that the massive self-buffing, perhaps the Prominence enchant made specifically for them, and general speed of attacks in their class design has leave you with minimal impact and a serious "Meh Feel Factor".

    Sooo... this analysis of different loadouts and how you felt running them: How much consistency was there from the different groups you ran with, from a buffing and "competitive DPS" perspective?

    Is that consistent enough for you to truly present a comparative build/loadout analysis here based on your "WOW Factor Feeling"?

    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.
    Post edited by lukejones77 on
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited January 2019


    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.

    I apologize about the slight off topic.

    Math is a language. Used to describe some truths and interactions in our world, real or virtual, so far, it's the best known to describe things as accurately and correctly as possible. Lacking the capability to comprehend what described by it, and the limitation and application of the description, expend on it, and as such utilize it in "real world application" is a personal issue and not of the system as a whole.

    It is a sign of a good engineer to apply the knowledge described into real worlds needs, but not everyone is a good engineer or one at all (and nothing wrong about that), but the world around us moved from the dark ages into what we have today, because of those that are, those that research and describe the world using math (scientists), and then those that take and apply that knowledge further into beneficial applications (engineers).

    In NW, there is no higher power intervention that can't be understood, everything can be described and figured out, even the "it works for me" crowd, if only they will apply thinking and open mind, a slower reaction person may get better result from using power X, over the optimal Y, a person who has issue staying alive may gain from using variation on stats and power that will help them, and much more.. but all of it, is simple and logical, there is no some miracles here and everything can be described accurately and correctly, starting by the most basic interactions of specific powers, buffs, debuffs, and going upwards to groups and so on. But the less we know about the basics the less good we are at manipulating and taking advantage of the world around us, and get the most of what we have. This is fundamental.
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.

    I apologize about the slight off topic.

    Math is a language. Used to describe some truths and interactions in our world, real or virtual, so far, it's the best known to describe things as accurately and correctly as possible. Lacking the capability to comprehend what described by it, and the limitation and application of the description, expend on it, and as such utilize it in "real world application" is a personal issue and not of the system as a whole.

    It is a sign of a good engineer to apply the knowledge described into real worlds needs, but not everyone is a good engineer or one at all (and nothing wrong about that), but the world around us moved from the dark ages into what we have today, because of those that are, those that research and describe the world using math (scientists), and then those that take and apply that knowledge further into beneficial applications (engineers).

    In NW, there is no higher power intervention that can't be understood, everything can be described and figured out, even the "it works for me" crowd, if only they will apply thinking and open mind, a slower reaction person may get better result from using power X, over the optimal Y, a person who has issue staying alive may gain from using variation on stats and power that will help them, and much more.. but all of it, is simple and logical, there is no some miracles here and everything can be described accurately and correctly, starting by the most basic interactions of specific powers, buffs, debuffs, and going upwards to groups and so on. But the less we know about the basics the less good we are at manipulating and taking advantage of the world around us, and get the most of what we have. This is fundamental.



  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Tried out the Renegade builds in a few dungeons. It is ok but I felt it was lacking some ump to it. It felt stronger than what we had in mod 14 but still missing that OMG WOW factor.

    I than tried my Thaum build that I made and took that for a spin and it did so much better.

    I than got with a group and we did 10 T9s. We ran 5 with me on my renegade builds and than 5 with me on my Thaum builds. No change to the group other my builds. The difference is that the runs went much quicker with the Thaum builds and my damage was up by 20% over my other build.
    ...

    This is all a real head scratcher for me. I really don't get how you can have so many builds, and get a good comparative feel for their relative performance, based on some runs you do with various groups.

    We all know that the buffs/debuffs provided to you by the group you're running with in any particular run tend to make a massive difference to the "WOW Feel Factor" for the resultant effect of attacks you made.

    We also know that the relative strength of your DPS vs other DPS in any specific run have a massive effect of the "WOW Feel Factor" you get, because other strong DPS tend to "take away" the effect you feel, and you end up having much less effect on the outcome.
    If you've pugged enough T2 and run into aggresive GWFs geared to your level, for example, you've almost certainly experienced that the massive self-buffing, perhaps the Prominence enchant made specifically for them, and general speed of attacks in their class design has leave you with minimal impact and a serious "Meh Feel Factor".

    Sooo... this analysis of different loadouts and how you felt running them: How much consistency was there from the different groups you ran with, from a buffing and "competitive DPS" perspective?

    Is that consistent enough for you to truly present a comparative build/loadout analysis here based on your "WOW Factor Feeling"?

    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.
    I was simply trying to see if the Thaum build has a place in the game and it does if you run with 3 other CWs that are SS Renegade, MoF Renegade and an Oppressor. You run with three other CWs go ahead and play a Thaum build as the group should be buffed/debuffed enough with 3 other CWs in the group.

    Do I recommend playing as a Thaum? No, because Renegade or Oppressor are better designed for group content and renegade offers CA for the CW when not in a group so there is really no reason to run as a Thaum. Do I recommend having a Thaum loadout; yeah if you are crazy and have 8 like I do and simply want it just in case you get lucky to run with 3 other CWs but since that is a rarity I pretty much have it there and have not used it since well the test I did. In fact my Thaum AoE loadout has been replaced by another Renegade build.

    I like the CW and even if the devs makes the Thaum a true DPS I will probably continue to play mine as a buffer or hybrid and have a Thaum/DPS loadout ready if needed.

  • lukejones77
    lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.

    I apologize about the slight off topic.

    Math is a language. Used to describe some truths and interactions in our world, real or virtual, so far, it's the best known to describe things as accurately and correctly as possible. Lacking the capability to comprehend what described by it, and the limitation and application of the description, expend on it, and as such utilize it in "real world application" is a personal issue and not of the system as a whole.

    It is a sign of a good engineer to apply the knowledge described into real worlds needs, but not everyone is a good engineer or one at all (and nothing wrong about that), but the world around us moved from the dark ages into what we have today, because of those that are, those that research and describe the world using math (scientists), and then those that take and apply that knowledge further into beneficial applications (engineers).

    In NW, there is no higher power intervention that can't be understood, everything can be described and figured out, even the "it works for me" crowd, if only they will apply thinking and open mind, a slower reaction person may get better result from using power X, over the optimal Y, a person who has issue staying alive may gain from using variation on stats and power that will help them, and much more.. but all of it, is simple and logical, there is no some miracles here and everything can be described accurately and correctly, starting by the most basic interactions of specific powers, buffs, debuffs, and going upwards to groups and so on. But the less we know about the basics the less good we are at manipulating and taking advantage of the world around us, and get the most of what we have. This is fundamental.
    No problem. I'm not saying that math isn't the way to go. I'm saying that the standard application of math we see that's used to determine loadouts doesn't take into into account real world modelling of of party dynamics and run types.
    From a data science perspective (very mathematical), you often apply techniques that abandon understanding the linear computational math, and run many scenarios that simply look at the likely outcomes (e.g. monte carlo method). This is a bit like mebengalsfan's approach, running many scenarios, varying the build/loadout and using "feel of the attacks" to assign a success factor in outcome. My point there, is that if you want to judge the relative success of the varied builds/loadouts, you really want keep the other dymanics as constant as possible, such as run types and party buff/debuff dynamics. Hence, I asked the question about consistency of runs.
    Many testers will start with the math, then go to the dummy targets, and run different passives, different builds and possibly rotations, over many minutes each - before deciding which is best. Of course, not all bosses and mobs are like the target dummies, and you likely won't have the same buff/debuff mechanics.

    At the end of the day, from a practical perspective, the math you started off with ended up being only a starting guide. Real answers became too complex for human linear math.

    Successful results tend to be dominated by multiplicative debuffs, so math for maximising that went so far as to effect selection of "meta party" composition. A while after that, people realised that buff up-time was an important factor, and "meta party must look like this" concepts started to crack. Buff uptime % will depend greatly on how long they take to activate, how long they're active for, and then their cool down. Different run types, where different fights last for certain times (dependant on DPS types and buffs) could be a big factor.

    While math continues to underlie everything, our confidence shouldn't be great that we can get the right answers in any given situation using the math. Pragmatically, it becomes more about experience of outcome.
    This is part of the reason that hard fights in new content tend to be dominated by meta parties, and within a few months the bar has been significantly lowered. That's doesn't happen by better application of math ;)


  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:


    Don't get me wrong. I find the typical CW "sharp mathematical analysis" we tend to get, that looks at specific power buff and debuff analysis, without real world application to factors such as relative speed and "competitive DPS", to be lacking. Understanding consistency of party dynamics in comparisons, is vital.

    I apologize about the slight off topic.

    Math is a language. Used to describe some truths and interactions in our world, real or virtual, so far, it's the best known to describe things as accurately and correctly as possible. Lacking the capability to comprehend what described by it, and the limitation and application of the description, expend on it, and as such utilize it in "real world application" is a personal issue and not of the system as a whole.

    It is a sign of a good engineer to apply the knowledge described into real worlds needs, but not everyone is a good engineer or one at all (and nothing wrong about that), but the world around us moved from the dark ages into what we have today, because of those that are, those that research and describe the world using math (scientists), and then those that take and apply that knowledge further into beneficial applications (engineers).

    In NW, there is no higher power intervention that can't be understood, everything can be described and figured out, even the "it works for me" crowd, if only they will apply thinking and open mind, a slower reaction person may get better result from using power X, over the optimal Y, a person who has issue staying alive may gain from using variation on stats and power that will help them, and much more.. but all of it, is simple and logical, there is no some miracles here and everything can be described accurately and correctly, starting by the most basic interactions of specific powers, buffs, debuffs, and going upwards to groups and so on. But the less we know about the basics the less good we are at manipulating and taking advantage of the world around us, and get the most of what we have. This is fundamental.
    No problem. I'm not saying that math isn't the way to go. I'm saying that the standard application of math we see that's used to determine loadouts doesn't take into into account real world modelling of of party dynamics and run types.
    From a data science perspective (very mathematical), you often apply techniques that abandon understanding the linear computational math, and run many scenarios that simply look at the likely outcomes (e.g. monte carlo method). This is a bit like mebengalsfan's approach, running many scenarios, varying the build/loadout and using "feel of the attacks" to assign a success factor in outcome. My point there, is that if you want to judge the relative success of the varied builds/loadouts, you really want keep the other dymanics as constant as possible, such as run types and party buff/debuff dynamics. Hence, I asked the question about consistency of runs.
    Many testers will start with the math, then go to the dummy targets, and run different passives, different builds and possibly rotations, over many minutes each - before deciding which is best. Of course, not all bosses and mobs are like the target dummies, and you likely won't have the same buff/debuff mechanics.

    At the end of the day, from a practical perspective, the math you started off with ended up being only a starting guide. Real answers became too complex for human linear math.

    Successful results tend to be dominated by multiplicative debuffs, so math for maximising that went so far as to effect selection of "meta party" composition. A while after that, people realised that buff up-time was an important factor, and "meta party must look like this" concepts started to crack. Buff uptime % will depend greatly on how long they take to activate, how long they're active for, and then their cool down. Different run types, where different fights last for certain times (dependant on DPS types and buffs) could be a big factor.

    While math continues to underlie everything, our confidence shouldn't be great that we can get the right answers in any given situation using the math. Pragmatically, it becomes more about experience of outcome.
    This is part of the reason that hard fights in new content tend to be dominated by meta parties, and within a few months the bar has been significantly lowered. That's doesn't happen by better application of math ;)


    You are right that many players don't run consistent test and I know that there is a difference in feats and buff from running Renegade vs. Thaum. The test was to simply see how my over all dmg % got modified with the group.

    The group was a Tac GF, AC DC, Templock, GWF and myself. The only change was my feats and one encounter power going from renegade to Thaum. The end result was what I already stated. Thaum is still viable but Renegade and Oppressor both have a place in the game and either one of those builds are better overall for group content and even soloing over Thaum. Thaum is simply there if you are the third or forth CW in a group. I honestly think Thaum is only worth running if you have 3 other CW already otherwise run Renegade or Oppressor.

    I will state that Thaum does do more damage but it does not surpass the group buffing that the other two paths offer and until the devs place caps on damage buff I don't recommend playing Thaum as it is a rarity to ever run with 3 other CWs.

    I know quite a few people don't consider the variation between builds and to get any true testing done it cannot happen alone on a sparring target; yet many player tend to do just that. For instance I run a lower power build on my CW; yeah I can hit 70K+ power on my CW if I wanted to but instead I drop power for more recovery and I sit around 60-65K because when running with a OP and AC DC 5K extra in power won't make or break any build but having that extra recovery can result in more dailies and encounter usage that results in higher overall damage. Yet others still go for the higher power forgoing higher recovery or other stats.

    One thing I personally dislike about this update is that disintegrate is just to strong. On mastery in CoDG in a none DPS group a CW can hit with disintegrate for around 50M+ and when in the DPS group it jumps to 100M+. If you play a CW be prepared for the devs to fix this sooner than later.





  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User


    One thing I personally dislike about this update is that disintegrate is just to strong. On mastery in CoDG in a none DPS group a CW can hit with disintegrate for around 50M+ and when in the DPS group it jumps to 100M+. If you play a CW be prepared for the devs to fix this sooner than later.

    Conversely CW is still mediocre unless buffed specifically to the point of churning out these hard-hitting, well-timed Disintegrates. In an average party, other DPS will usually perform better, so I don't think it's terribly unbalanced that CW performs well under the same conditions that every other class in the game does currently.

    When the distinction becomes how many extra seconds it takes to kill a boss that is already going down in moments, I think the question of balance is right out the window. Nothing will really address that except a fundamental change to the multiplicative buff system.

    All of that being said, I remain ambivalent about the fact that CW DPS really IS Disintegrate and that CW also has the dubious distinction of being the best murderer of things that are about to die anyway.



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  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User



    While math continues to underlie everything, our confidence shouldn't be great that we can get the right answers in any given situation using the math. Pragmatically, it becomes more about experience of outcome.
    This is part of the reason that hard fights in new content tend to be dominated by meta parties, and within a few months the bar has been significantly lowered. That's doesn't happen by better application of math ;)



    Except everything in this game can be modeled accurately and it isn't even hard, the systems in place are not even complicated. Hell, path of exile, a much more complicated game, is modeled accurately by path of building. When people look up builds in that game, the first thing they ask build authors is, "what is your path of building dps." They don't ask for values in game, they don't ask for videos, they ask for numbers predicted by a tool that models in game performance.

    This game and any others are based on numbers, with the right know how you can model the entire system and this should always be trusted over, "oh I ran this therefor my build works." Fact of the matter is, under no circumstances will you feel a 1 or 2% difference, but you can detect it with numbers. You can make improvements on a micro scale with mathematics that you would never be able to do applying your methodology and often, a build that performs 20-30% better then someone elses is just made up of a string of 1-2% improvements, that added up over time. If you going by "feel" and making those changes 1 at a time, it is unlikely you will arrive at the same result.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited February 2019



    While math continues to underlie everything, our confidence shouldn't be great that we can get the right answers in any given situation using the math. Pragmatically, it becomes more about experience of outcome.
    This is part of the reason that hard fights in new content tend to be dominated by meta parties, and within a few months the bar has been significantly lowered. That's doesn't happen by better application of math ;)



    Except everything in this game can be modeled accurately and it isn't even hard, the systems in place are not even complicated. Hell, path of exile, a much more complicated game, is modeled accurately by path of building. When people look up builds in that game, the first thing they ask build authors is, "what is your path of building dps." They don't ask for values in game, they don't ask for videos, they ask for numbers predicted by a tool that models in game performance.

    This game and any others are based on numbers, with the right know how you can model the entire system and this should always be trusted over, "oh I ran this therefor my build works." Fact of the matter is, under no circumstances will you feel a 1 or 2% difference, but you can detect it with numbers. You can make improvements on a micro scale with mathematics that you would never be able to do applying your methodology and often, a build that performs 20-30% better then someone elses is just made up of a string of 1-2% improvements, that added up over time. If you going by "feel" and making those changes 1 at a time, it is unlikely you will arrive at the same result.
    You are making an assumption that all players play to the same level and can easily grasp how to play a specific class to achieve optimal levels. You have no idea how many GWF don't wait a split second to ensure they have the damage buff from their dagger and result in sub optimal damage. There is also many players that also don't know the specific rotation of a CW even with guides out there to achieve maximum damage.

    Players need to get that feeling he mentions to actually play and achieve decent damage. As they get more comfortable than the math becomes relevant and that is the thing; with so many variables between each player it is never that easy. I have played with so called top DPS and brought along someone I knew who was handicapped, played with one foot - literally, and he out damage the so called top DPS that were near max IL and here he was around 15K il. Those players did not get the feel they needed for their character but that handicap player did and he excelled at it; he didn't run the best rotation; he ran what work for him due to his limitation.

    So, getting the feeling of a build is needed and sometimes the best builds players have to forgo due to their own limitation and they may surprise you because they got the feel of their character for what they can do.

    Using myself as an example; no matter how much math you put in front of me and tell me that the CW is the top DPS class and produces the top damage I myself prefer to play as a support over DPS even if the CW is the top damage dealer in the game. Even if the support build is subpar I prefer the support path or a hybrid over being top DPS because at least as a support or hybrid I'm bring a bit more to the table than just straight out damage.

    And speaking of straight out damage; the Thaum path is still top dog for CW if you want top damage the thing is though it is not needed in the game current state; who knows how much that changes in mod 16.