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AD exchange Back Log solution

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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    daniloslv said:

    The solution is to remove cap on zen/ad price.

    No...it would have a major negative impact to this game and its economy.
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    move the coal/pres wards to the bazaar for sell using AD, then make all other items on the zen market Bound to Account. Coal and press wards can be gotten from invoking rewards, though i ask that the pres wards % is increased. Moving these to bazaar instead of zen market will give NW another AD sink that is worthwhile and take a huge chunk out of the zen recycling profit issue going on.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    daniloslv said:

    The solution is to remove cap on zen/ad price.

    It would only "solve" the problem in the same same sense as killing a patient would cure a disease.

    The effects would seriously hurt F2P players, as they would have to farm a lot more AD to get the Zen they want. Also, AH prices of items from the Zen store would increase correspondingly. Increased price of wards would then in turn drive up the prices of enchants, and with this inflation you would eventually be at the point where this was a pure P2P game - it would just not be feasible to play without spending money.

    This in turn would drive away much of the playerbase and damage the reputation of the game even further.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    move the coal/pres wards to the bazaar for sell using AD, then make all other items on the zen market Bound to Account.

    This will not happen. Yes, it would reduce the problem, but moving the wards to the Bazaar would reduce the incentive for people to actually spend $$$ on the game - too risky.

    If the wards were to remain in the Zen store but became account bound, it would stop people from buying wards during sales, selling them on the AH and converting that AD back into Zen. However, people could instead buy the wards, use the wards to make enchants, sell those enchants and convert that AD into Zen instead.

    There is no simple, easy solution, I'm afraid.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    So after some thought...

    I fail to see where making everything BTA out of the zen store relieves the backlog.. all I can see is that it removes items that f2p players can buy with a bit more grinding otherwise.

    Sure poeple who with lots of zen are now stuck with it.. so a quick sale off might happen, but after that , no one will invest in zen, so it becomes sort of meaningless,

    Short term effect =.. reduced backlog.
    Long term effect = nothing changes, zen value drops, as you cannot make profits anymore, no one invests in zen.. so no one sales it.

    There is zero incentive to sell zen afterwards imo. It actually in the long run makes things worse not better.

    There isnt much now to be truthful, as a 1 to 500 ratio is pretty bad tbh. Zen is worth far more then that and will always be worth more.

    Status quo = players can at least buy most things out of the zen store, other then vip..
    I just picked up 3 tigers at 1 million per.. sure its a markup, but they were there and costs like 9 more days of grinding to get .

    My vote is to keep things as they are.. when I want to buy something, I just buy it, when I can grind for it , I grind for it.

    Zen exchange effects my playing very little.




  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    So after some thought...

    I fail to see where making everything BTA out of the zen store relieves the backlog.. all I can see is that it removes items that f2p players can buy with a bit more grinding otherwise.

    Sure poeple who with lots of zen are now stuck with it.. so a quick sale off might happen, but after that , no one will invest in zen, so it becomes sort of meaningless,

    Short term effect =.. reduced backlog.
    Long term effect = nothing changes, zen value drops, as you cannot make profits anymore, no one invests in zen.. so no one sales it.

    There is zero incentive to sell zen afterwards imo. It actually in the long run makes things worse not better.

    There isnt much now to be truthful, as a 1 to 500 ratio is pretty bad tbh. Zen is worth far more then that and will always be worth more.

    Status quo = players can at least buy most things out of the zen store, other then vip..
    I just picked up 3 tigers at 1 million per.. sure its a markup, but they were there and costs like 9 more days of grinding to get .

    My vote is to keep things as they are.. when I want to buy something, I just buy it, when I can grind for it , I grind for it.

    Zen exchange effects my playing very little.




    You should rethink what you just wrote ;p
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User






    You should rethink what you just wrote ;p

    Why?

    Can you elucidate a bit more for me?

    I have always found this topic perplexing, there always seems to be a bunch of folks upset about backlog, as if its a right to get Zen the moment you want it or something..

  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User





    You should rethink what you just wrote ;p

    Why?

    Can you elucidate a bit more for me?

    I have always found this topic perplexing, there always seems to be a bunch of folks upset about backlog, as if its a right to get Zen the moment you want it or something..



    becouse by paying money you get zen, thats how its introduced into the game, but its not worth transfering zen into ad ( exchange ) its simply better to buy wards and sell them on AH or tiger or campaign completition or this or that, meaning that backlog will grow bigger and bigger. making things bound to account, means that if you want AD for ZEN you HAVE to use exchange for 500:1. no more stocking on 10000 coal wards during 40% off and reselling for 500mil ad profit and then making milions of ad backlogs, hope that explains it
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    There are several types of ppl who buy zen with cash. Those that want the shortcut to AD, those that want the zen only items (like account wide mounts), and those that don't know or haven't gotten into the profit cycle. Those that buy zen with AD on the otherhand are primarily doing this to make profit. Buy X on zen for 100AD worth sell for 250AD on AH, trade that 150AD in for zen repeat. Some legitimate people use the recycled zen for good things, like i did when i bought character slots or keys. By making the items on Zen store BtA they can effectively cripple the profit cycle without barring the legitimate use of recycled zen. When this happens a huge chunk of the ZAX backlog will go away leaving the zen that legitimate players will use properly. Since cryptic put a 100k cap on AD the number of people who buy zen with cash for the AD shortcut most likely increased.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    On PC now, pres wards are 50K and coal wards are 490K. No one is getting any new inventory to flip now without a 20% coupon.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    On PC now, pres wards are 50K and coal wards are 490K. No one is getting any new inventory to flip now without a 20% coupon.

    thats becouse black friday 40% off was not too long ago where coal could be bought for 300k ad, 0,9 x 490 ~~ 441k making it 141k profit. Also with 20% coupon coal costs 400k and sells for 441 so you do get 41k profit. On top of that WInder Festival is close so pres wards and coals remain " cheap " after that the prices will go up again.
  • daniloslvdaniloslv Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Removing the zen/ad cap would also help with draining a lot of AD from market. Which is an issue devs have been trying to fight for years (many players got lots of AD using "unethical" means).

    In the short time, prices might skyrocket. But after this things would reach a point of equilibrium.

    Also having Zen be more valuable would incentivise people to spend more real money.

    We should make a test. Increase the cap to 1000 for 2 months. And see how it goes.

    Or we could implement a Priority purchase queue. A player could jump the queue by paying more, but be limited in the amount of zen he can purchase in this mode. Something like: you can purchase up to 2000 zen / month by paying more and jumping the queue. This could be a good mid ground.
    Leliana - Healer DC
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  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    daniloslv said:

    Removing the zen/ad cap would also help with draining a lot of AD from market. Which is an issue devs have been trying to fight for years (many players got lots of AD using "unethical" means).

    Drain? You mean increase AD wealth transfer to players who hold lots of zen, or willing to buy new zen.

    Though if they are going to lift the cap, now may be a good time to do it because most players just spent every zen they have buying 40% off wards. It will be hard to predict what will happen to the backlog. For one thing, there will be less zen being purchased with AD.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,092 Arc User
    daniloslv said:



    We should make a test. Increase the cap to 1000 for 2 months. And see how it goes.

    They already have a test case in place; the Russian Drider server.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    daniloslv said:

    Removing the zen/ad cap would also help with draining a lot of AD from market. Which is an issue devs have been trying to fight for years (many players got lots of AD using "unethical" means).

    In the short time, prices might skyrocket. But after this things would reach a point of equilibrium.

    Also having Zen be more valuable would incentivise people to spend more real money.

    We should make a test. Increase the cap to 1000 for 2 months. And see how it goes.

    Or we could implement a Priority purchase queue. A player could jump the queue by paying more, but be limited in the amount of zen he can purchase in this mode. Something like: you can purchase up to 2000 zen / month by paying more and jumping the queue. This could be a good mid ground.

    That cap is the main thing that holds the economy from collapsing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sumZLwFXJqE


    The entire issue of the backlog is non-issue, those that wait, can get what they want, or profit, those that do not have the patience, pay more. Simple, and not really an issue, unless someone just like their things NOW, RIGHT NOW, and want to cry when they need to wait.
  • daniloslvdaniloslv Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    @micky1p00

    This video explains well the issue. Inflation.

    It is like comparing an inflationary currency, like Venezuela, and a stable currency like Dollar.

    AD is inflationary. There is new AD being created daily, "magically".
    But Zen comes from real money. USD.

    As more zen is added, Zen should become more valuable (if there was no cap) to keep parity with Ad.
    As the Zen price is controlled by central authority (Neverwinter) Zen is just losing value each day. And what happens? People stop having incentives to exchange Zen per AD. Because it is not worth it. Thats why the backlog just increases.

    Today if you want to buy a legendary mount, it costs around15kk AD. Thats 30k zen.
    Around a year ago you could buy a legendary mount for 8kk AD. Thats 16k zen.

    And Legendary mounts haven't become more valuable or more rare. It is even more common to see them nowadays, to justify the increase in price. This is AD inflation.

    What is happening is by controlling prices, you are only making zen be less and less worth it.
    Which means that the game becomes more and more expensive for players who use Zen (real money - USD).
    Leliana - Healer DC
    Leliana C.W. - Opressor CW
    Lelian O.P. - Bulwark Paladin
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    daniloslv said:

    @micky1p00

    This video explains well the issue. Inflation.

    It is like comparing an inflationary currency, like Venezuela, and a stable currency like Dollar.

    AD is inflationary. There is new AD being created daily, "magically".
    But Zen comes from real money. USD.

    As more zen is added, Zen should become more valuable (if there was no cap) to keep parity with Ad.
    As the Zen price is controlled by central authority (Neverwinter) Zen is just losing value each day. And what happens? People stop having incentives to exchange Zen per AD. Because it is not worth it. Thats why the backlog just increases.

    Today if you want to buy a legendary mount, it costs around15kk AD. Thats 30k zen.
    Around a year ago you could buy a legendary mount for 8kk AD. Thats 16k zen.

    And Legendary mounts haven't become more valuable or more rare. It is even more common to see them nowadays, to justify the increase in price. This is AD inflation.

    What is happening is by controlling prices, you are only making zen be less and less worth it.
    Which means that the game becomes more and more expensive for players who use Zen (real money - USD).

    Ok, lets address some parts first:



    While a whirlwind cost about 20mil a year and a half ago.
    The legendary pack is stable for years now, since the drop rate change.

    The game is not exactly more expensive for people using ZEN, mod0-3 Avatar of war piece or high vizier was over 1.5 mil while the ZAX sat on ~300 points. We can argue that you need more parts, insignia, more artifacts, and more other HAMSTER, but this is not currency issue, but power creep / item inflation of the game.

    Now to the topic, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Yes, AD is hyper inflating, nothing will change that, it can be slowed, it can be sunk, but AD will be printed. The only thing that gives AD value is the cap. Remove the cap, and great, you can buy much more AD, but it doesn't mean you got more value, it simply means that AD lost all value.
    You will be able to buy a lot of virtual toilet paper, in a game with no toilets.

    Please watch again from minute 4:00, you can see the explanation why AD must be tied to ZEN with a cap, and why it works (they explain it better than I will type it).

    ZEN value is stable, yes, it's a bit over 500 points, lets say 550? But you can't just increase ZEN value at the price of burning down the game economy to the ground - turning AD completely worthless.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    The entire focus on the backlog, is focusing on a minor symptom that on it's own is not an issue. Waiting for ZEN a week, or a month, is mostly an issue for kids who can't plan ahead, or require immediate gratification, luckily NW is a bit more mature audience oriented MMO.

    People making AD from the backlog? Again not an issue, it is available for everyone, and market controlled. Don't want to pay the AH price, convert ZEN, and buy from the ZEN shop, if everyone will do so, demand will drop, AH prices will go lower, and 'flipping' will not be a thing.
    On the other hand, more people 'flipping' will increase supply and balance the prices. Nothing special here.

    I don't see any reason to be so fixated on this, except some sort of envy "How dare someone to get AD not by repeatedly grinding whatever for hours and hours", while missing the point that in global scope this is much healthier to the economy, each ward that swaps hands removes 10% from the economy, as opposed to just exchanging on the ZAX. Also people who focus on trading, and do not run content, do not create AD (via RAD) and only swap hands, meaning the sink AD = a net gain to the economy, as opposed to people who RQ, and refine which is the source of the hyper inflation.

    At the end, the solution also is short sighted, fixing things by limiting players and reducing some advantages is not healthy for the game, nor solves the core issue. The backlog is a simple symptom for AD devaluation, or in some aspect lack of AD need for a player with ZEN. Lets say a player has disposable income, and lets remove the wards part for a moment as it is not relevant if they exchange directly or via selling wards, the question is why would they want AD?
    The only thing is marks, but how many of those you need? The change to the enchants, made enchants much cheaper to make, and as such increased the issue.

    So what they want to buy with AD?

    In a healthy game, a person who spends time (AD) can trade for someone who spends RM (ZEN), and the ZEN->AD path is done by sought after drops.

    As I've mentioned, Avatar of War, High Vizier, CN weapon set, etc.. Now the only thing is UES, and those go for 70k a piece, and not really needed for the mass of players, where rank 13 is good enough.

    So lets start there, instead of bind ideas that more like a band-aid to a cancer patient than a solution to the economic issue.

    PS: MW is a limited solution of that type, but to maintain its value, like a drop from a dungeon that must be rare enough to maintain price, MW utilize entry 'fee' and half broken RNG, with a good chain of resources that makes it available to people of various progress (NPC / maps are without unlock 'fee'). Good or bad, it is part of the solution, but a wider available solution aka drops, will help further.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    Making zen market items bound to account will not change anything, it will just add an extra step. Instead of buy wards -> sell for ad it will be buy wards -> refine item -> sell for ad.
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    except now, the item that is refined is put into the economy where it can do good. Otherwise the AD/zen never gets into the economy itself.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User

    except now, the item that is refined is put into the economy where it can do good. Otherwise the AD/zen never gets into the economy itself.

    So the pres/coal wards aren't doing any good in the economy? This will actually be worst for the f2p players. Instead of getting the raw materials to make the enchants they want, now they have to "upgrade" by buying higher ranks and selling the lower ranks they are replacing. And suppliers, instead of offering two products directly, now has to make all sorts of different enchants, fragmenting the market. There is a reason why people currently buy R8/R9 from the AH and build higher ranks themselves.
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    if you look at my notes above the recent i suggested coal/pres be moved to bazaar. i agree with your suggestion on pres/coal needing to be available to the general public, but imo, the zen market is not a good place for that
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    I don't think they have much of an incentive to fix the problem really. it works out good for them. people who want something now are forced to spend money or go without.. otherwise if they really wanted to help the player base out... they'd jsut print more zen as it were, easy peasy
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    actually it doesn't help them. Most of the zen is recycled therefore it doesn't come from cash at all. making things BTA and removing the profit cycle will encourage more cash buying in the long run.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User

    actually it doesn't help them. Most of the zen is recycled therefore it doesn't come from cash at all. making things BTA and removing the profit cycle will encourage more cash buying in the long run.

    ZEN can't be recycled, it must always come from cash. If someone used the ZAX to get ZEN and buy wards, the ZEN must come from someone who bought it for RM. There are no other sources of ZEN (except some rare customer support refunds and some promos etc..)
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    micky1p00 said:

    actually it doesn't help them. Most of the zen is recycled therefore it doesn't come from cash at all. making things BTA and removing the profit cycle will encourage more cash buying in the long run.

    ZEN can't be recycled, it must always come from cash. If someone used the ZAX to get ZEN and buy wards, the ZEN must come from someone who bought it for RM. There are no other sources of ZEN (except some rare customer support refunds and some promos etc..)
    Unless Zen is exchanged by the actual company into AD, in order to provide some liquidity in the ZAX during times when people are not buying Zen to exchange to AD. There is no concrete evidence to say this is the case, but also none to say that this isn't the case.
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  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    "ZEN can't be recycled, it must always come from cash. If someone used the ZAX to get ZEN and buy wards, the ZEN must come from someone who bought it for RM. There are no other sources of ZEN (except some rare customer support refunds and some promos etc..)"

    Recyled zen is the zen gained by exchanging AD for zen. when you put up 500 AD for 1 zen, then that 1 zen becomes recycled, you gained it not from cash but from in game currency.

    This is a good thing for players as they can then buy stuff on zen market without paying cash. As some countries in the world have a very hard time coming up with the same amount 1st world countries can make, it gives players around the world the ability to gain from the zen market.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,092 Arc User
    Just because zen has changed hands through the exchange does not mean it is "recycled". That zen was paid for; Cryptic got money for it. If I put zen into the exchange, I am buying AD that I don't have to grind for. Nothing more. Nothing less. The person on the other side of the exchange is getting zen they don't have to spend real money on. Which is the entire point of the ZAX to begin with.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • athena#9205 athena Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    The issue i'm talking about is the fact that Zen is hoarded by players for the sole purpose of profit, which wasn't the intention of ZAX. And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash. And its my opinion that the profit cycle that uses recycled zen is what is causing a large portion of the AD backlog. when zen, recycled or not, is used to purchase items on the market that get used (like keys and packs), then that zen is properly used, imo. When the ZAX is used to hoard recycled zen (for whatever reason) then the ZAX gets backlogged because the available zen in the entire system isn't getting used as intended.

    several means of fixing this are: limiting the maximum of "recycled zen" to a set value, moving the wards out of the zen market and into the bazaar and setting items in the exchange to BTA. There are more, but i believe these will help greatly to reducing the backlog.
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