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Leadership???

dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
WoW just played preview and not happy. So all my time and effort not counting money for leadership is totally gone as there is no more leadership in professions?
"What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron

Comments

  • constantmule#4943 constantmule Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    not really gone, but yeah its a heck of a change isnt it..what gets me is half of the other professions need a billion different ingredients to finally get one where you can task one to get XP for it. kinda kicks those of us that have been working solely on leadership in the netherparts
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Leadership kind of becomes gathering. I think gathering is more or less needed for all profession. If I am not mistaken, having leadership gives you a leg over without.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    This new setup sucks bad ,not good in any way and who ever thought it was a good idea must of been kicked in the head. They seem to go out of their way making bad changes .Game has gone downhill since they lost the first design team . With so many things in game they could waste time on fixing they instead waste time changing something like this that wasn't broke in the first place.
    As for the gathering part players that wanted to gather stuff already did those professions that required it.Players that did not want to be forced to waste play time did leadership. Some of us that are not glued to our computers and have limited playtime per day now have to waste that time trying to locate stuff instead of actully playing and enjoying the game.
    "What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User

    Leadership kind of becomes gathering. I think gathering is more or less needed for all profession. If I am not mistaken, having leadership gives you a leg over without.

    Nope, having leadership pretty much gives you NOTHING as you will get gathering for freak'n free at what every level is your highest profession. So you got leatherworking at 25, you get the new leatherworking at 70 AND gathering at 70. If all you have is leadership all you get is gathering without another profession to feed it into at 70.

    So yeah, a big HAMSTER you.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User

    not really gone, but yeah its a heck of a change isnt it..what gets me is half of the other professions need a billion different ingredients to finally get one where you can task one to get XP for it. kinda kicks those of us that have been working solely on leadership in the netherparts

    Them's the breaks, as they say. You could have leveled one or more other professions in order to help your guild out. Since you did not, you can look at it this way: If you decide to level other professions once the update comes out, at least your Gathering profession and associated adventurers will be able to gather high quality components for your lower level profession tasks. I can't recall with certainty, but I think that high quality results give you a bit more experience. Even if they don't, hopefully they'll sell for a bit more than regular quality results would. Also, if you were using Leadership to generate crates of astral diamonds for your guild, you'll still be able to do that right out of the gate.


    Nope, having leadership pretty much gives you NOTHING as you will get gathering for freak'n free at what every level is your highest profession. So you got leatherworking at 25, you get the new leatherworking at 70 AND gathering at 70. If all you have is leadership all you get is gathering without another profession to feed it into at 70.

    So yeah, a big HAMSTER you.

    I rather doubt that people who chose to level a non-Leadership profession did not also level Leadership. I would think that only a vanishingly few people decided there was value in leveling other professions and were not also willing to put in the effort to level Leadership. We know there aren't that many masterwork crafters in the game. That leads me to believe that most of the people who leveled other professions were doing it to help their guilds, and those people would have seen the value in Leadership being both the RP you can get from it as well as the crates of labor and astral diamonds. Overall, I think there are relatively fewer people who bothered to level professions other than Leadership. At least, that's the way it seems to me based on alliance chatter.
  • dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    They took away all Hero's to and turned them into voucer's so count all those ad to buy them gone also. WoW talk about kicking you in the nards . One of the biggest reasons to donate stuff to your guild was to get crappy armor to salvage now thats gone also.Same with doing the patrols quests in Chult .So in one fell swoop they are basicly killing off parts of the game that were fun to do and you got something worthwhile out it doing it.
    Also having played this game since the beginning if I had wanted to do a profession that already required me to waste time trying to find the stuff I probbly would have,but no I have limited playtime so when I sit down to play that is what I want to do ,not have to do boring stuff like gathering.
    "What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    They took away all Hero's to and turned them into voucer's so count all those ad to buy them gone also. WoW talk about kicking you in the nards . One of the biggest reasons to donate stuff to your guild was to get crappy armor to salvage now thats gone also.Same with doing the patrols quests in Chult .So in one fell swoop they are basicly killing off parts of the game that were fun to do and you got something worthwhile out it doing it.
    Also having played this game since the beginning if I had wanted to do a profession that already required me to waste time trying to find the stuff I probbly would have,but no I have limited playtime so when I sit down to play that is what I want to do ,not have to do boring stuff like gathering.

    Do you bother to do any actual testing? Or do you just look up a little information and then come spout off? All the laborers that exist in the current system get turned into vouchers. What you do with those is up to you. You have these choices:
    1. Feed the vouchers to your guild's coffer for labor.
    2. Exchange the vouchers at your workshop's retainer for a currency that is then used to buy new assets, including (if you have enough) new artisans instead of new tools.
    3. Sell the vouchers.
    4. Throw the vouchers away.
    5. Keep the vouchers forever as a cherished memory of your nameless laborers.

    You get these vouchers for all the laborers you have, whether they be heroes, smiths, alchemists, black ice craftsmen, etc. Their trade-in value (to your workshop's retainer) is based on the average AH buyout price at some point before the announcement of the crafting overhaul. So heroes are worth 80k of this new currency, while the rest of the epic laborers (grandmaster ) are worth 20k. Lower rarity laborers are individually worth less than these values.

    As for them taking salvage away, instead of buying Company gear to then salvage, you'll be able to purchase rough astral diamonds directly. I'm not sure what guild-related currencies other than guild marks will be involved in this, as I haven't checked this out because I'm not currently interested. The same is true for all the campaigns: You'll be able to buy rough astral diamonds directly from the campaign store using campaign currency.

    Having to do "boring stuff like gathering"? Really? Once again, you expose the shallow depths of your knowledge of the new system. You can tell your adventurers to go gather stuff, and you can tell them either to repeat the task until the delivery box is full or you can tell them to repeat it X number of times, where X is a whole number greater than zero. After that, you only need to collect from the delivery box periodically until you decide to change what your adventurers are gathering. Furthermore, once you get your workshop to level 3 (which isn't very hard), you don't even have to go to the workshop to collect the items from the delivery box.

    I strongly suggest you either spend some time on Preview and learn about the changes first-hand or spend considerably more time on the Preview forums than you obviously currently are. There's little reason or need to sound sour notes over the upcoming changes based on nuggets of facts and mountains of incorrect assumptions.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Which tab of the inventory will the voucher be stored?
    Can it be kept in the shared bank? Right now, profession personnel and tool cannot be stored in shared bank.
    I assume artisans and new tools are bound within the character. Is my assumption correct?

    Thanks.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User

    Which tab of the inventory will the voucher be stored?
    Can it be kept in the shared bank? Right now, profession personnel and tool cannot be stored in shared bank.
    I assume artisans and new tools are bound within the character. Is my assumption correct?

    Thanks.

    The vouchers can be left in the crafting inventory. I don't know if it can be put in the shared bank or not because I haven't tried. It can be mailed. Artisans are bound to character in the sense that they aren't tradeable. However, they're not stored in inventory anywhere and so they don't technically have a binding status. Tools and materials purchased from the retainer are bound to character, but everything I've made (including adamantine tools) has been tradeable/auctionable.
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    i am going to missed leadership profession, they were also a source of xp and rp.
  • durgan#5731 durgan Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Some of Nunya's comments give me a little better feeling about the changes. I still think we're not going to get a tithe of value for time invested, but I will wait and see. As long as I can continue to support the guild then I can live with it. If they take that away, then I'll find something else to do. Between this, and their 'fixing' Storming the Castle so it can't be played with private que, I haven't spent a dime on the game. Saves me 200 bucks a month, so I suppose that's a good thing.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    Thanks, @durgan#5731! I still think the new professions system is a gold sink the game doesn't really require. I haven't yet had time to measure how quickly I can gather gold by running dungeons and selling the previously-salvageable spoils. Also, between the fact there are only three gathering slots and three crafting slots per character and the gold sink factor, I think we're going to have to carefully plan which characters are gathering and crafting what, in order to balance the amount of gold each character is using and in order to keep the crafting flowing as smoothly as possible.

    I already know that I'm going to have to plan which profession each of the characters on my and my wife's accounts chooses to start with. The goal being to make sure that I have each of the professions covered, preferably twice. I've got one character that has level 25 Leadership and should have level 25 Mailsmithing before the update comes out. She's got three characters that might have level 21 Leadership before then. Otherwise, the rest of our characters (13) have all professions leveled to 25. This way I can make sure that I have two characters able to craft something from each profession, which will help make filling commissions and leveling the workshops much easier. Her three that have only been leveling Leadership will probably just do Gathering. I'm not sure I'll want to invest the time, effort, and gold to level up any other professions on them after the update comes out.
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User




    Nope, having leadership pretty much gives you NOTHING as you will get gathering for freak'n free at what every level is your highest profession. So you got leatherworking at 25, you get the new leatherworking at 70 AND gathering at 70. If all you have is leadership all you get is gathering without another profession to feed it into at 70.

    So yeah, a big HAMSTER you.

    I rather doubt that people who chose to level a non-Leadership profession did not also level Leadership. I would think that only a vanishingly few people decided there was value in leveling other professions and were not also willing to put in the effort to level Leadership. We know there aren't that many masterwork crafters in the game. That leads me to believe that most of the people who leveled other professions were doing it to help their guilds, and those people would have seen the value in Leadership being both the RP you can get from it as well as the crates of labor and astral diamonds. Overall, I think there are relatively fewer people who bothered to level professions other than Leadership. At least, that's the way it seems to me based on alliance chatter.
    If what you say is true, that people leveled their other professions AND leadership... then why give it away for free when they will already have it? If like you said just about everyone would have leveled it, then great, you now have gathering at 70 in the new system. They earned it, they put the effort and time into it, they deserve it.

    If you did not level leadership but another profession then in the the new system, buy your resources until you raise gathering up. Put the effort and time into it like others did.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited October 2018




    Nope, having leadership pretty much gives you NOTHING as you will get gathering for freak'n free at what every level is your highest profession. So you got leatherworking at 25, you get the new leatherworking at 70 AND gathering at 70. If all you have is leadership all you get is gathering without another profession to feed it into at 70.

    So yeah, a big HAMSTER you.

    I rather doubt that people who chose to level a non-Leadership profession did not also level Leadership. I would think that only a vanishingly few people decided there was value in leveling other professions and were not also willing to put in the effort to level Leadership. We know there aren't that many masterwork crafters in the game. That leads me to believe that most of the people who leveled other professions were doing it to help their guilds, and those people would have seen the value in Leadership being both the RP you can get from it as well as the crates of labor and astral diamonds. Overall, I think there are relatively fewer people who bothered to level professions other than Leadership. At least, that's the way it seems to me based on alliance chatter.
    If what you say is true, that people leveled their other professions AND leadership... then why give it away for free when they will already have it? If like you said just about everyone would have leveled it, then great, you now have gathering at 70 in the new system. They earned it, they put the effort and time into it, they deserve it.

    If you did not level leadership but another profession then in the the new system, buy your resources until you raise gathering up. Put the effort and time into it like others did.

    Are you thinking about only one character in your scenario or multiple characters?

    I don't know how other people set up their current profession.

    I set it up in a way for a team of characters. Everyone has leadership.

    Type 1: If I just wanted 8 slots for that character, he would also have a level 4 Alchemy for opening up slot. Basically, only level 25 leadership.
    Type 2: If I wanted 9 slots for a character, that character would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and one extra profession. That extra profession is different from character to character.
    Type 3: For the character I played for real (I have 6), they would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting (which was legacy reason for making personal jewels in the past). They might also have one extra level 25 profession after leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting.

    Since I don't have a toon that has two profession combined into one, I did not 'waste' for that.

    Now, about leadership becomes gathering, it may not be a waste to me either if my assumption is correct (which I don't know). I assume my type 1, 2 and 3 have the ability to gather stuff for the profession they don't possess.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User


    Are you thinking about only one character in your scenario or multiple characters?

    I don't know how other people set up their current profession.

    I set it up in a way for a team of characters. Everyone has leadership.

    Type 1: If I just wanted 8 slots for that character, he would also have a level 4 Alchemy for opening up slot. Basically, only level 25 leadership.
    Type 2: If I wanted 9 slots for a character, that character would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and one extra profession. That extra profession is different from character to character.
    Type 3: For the character I played for real (I have 6), they would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting (which was legacy reason for making personal jewels in the past). They might also have one extra level 25 profession after leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting.

    Since I don't have a toon that has two profession combined into one, I did not 'waste' for that.

    Now, about leadership becomes gathering, it may not be a waste to me either if my assumption is correct (which I don't know). I assume my type 1, 2 and 3 have the ability to gather stuff for the profession they don't possess.

    Again, why give it away for free if you did not earn it? If you have other alts with it then, great. But for many who play a few times a week, leadership can take over a years to level off, its the slowest leveling profession. Why just give that away for free while others work for it and yet giving nothing away for free to them? The point of the game is not fairness, for sure but it is to make profit for the company (and hopefully enjoying your work). How is it profitable to anger a portion of your customers with this and other decisions when, frankly, it can be very easily avoided. I guess my point is how tone deaf the devs seem to be to their player base.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited October 2018


    Are you thinking about only one character in your scenario or multiple characters?

    I don't know how other people set up their current profession.

    I set it up in a way for a team of characters. Everyone has leadership.

    Type 1: If I just wanted 8 slots for that character, he would also have a level 4 Alchemy for opening up slot. Basically, only level 25 leadership.
    Type 2: If I wanted 9 slots for a character, that character would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and one extra profession. That extra profession is different from character to character.
    Type 3: For the character I played for real (I have 6), they would have level 25 leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting (which was legacy reason for making personal jewels in the past). They might also have one extra level 25 profession after leadership, Alchemy and Jewelcrafting.

    Since I don't have a toon that has two profession combined into one, I did not 'waste' for that.

    Now, about leadership becomes gathering, it may not be a waste to me either if my assumption is correct (which I don't know). I assume my type 1, 2 and 3 have the ability to gather stuff for the profession they don't possess.

    Again, why give it away for free if you did not earn it? If you have other alts with it then, great. But for many who play a few times a week, leadership can take over a years to level off, its the slowest leveling profession. Why just give that away for free while others work for it and yet giving nothing away for free to them? The point of the game is not fairness, for sure but it is to make profit for the company (and hopefully enjoying your work). How is it profitable to anger a portion of your customers with this and other decisions when, frankly, it can be very easily avoided. I guess my point is how tone deaf the devs seem to be to their player base.

    I don't know if it made any sense for anyone who is not playing and setting up leadership almost everyday to level up leadership to begin with. i.e. if you don't set up leadership almost everyday, there is no point to have level 25 leadership. If one even invest into hero, etc, and did not set up leadership multiple times almost everyday, it is a even a bigger waste.

    Regardless, IMO, having leadership is having an edge over those who did not. For me, it is not a waste at all but I also know you do think it is.
    Post edited by plasticbat on
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    edited October 2018


    Again, why give it away for free if you did not earn it? If you have other alts with it then, great. But for many who play a few times a week, leadership can take over a years to level off, its the slowest leveling profession. Why just give that away for free while others work for it and yet giving nothing away for free to them? The point of the game is not fairness, for sure but it is to make profit for the company (and hopefully enjoying your work). How is it profitable to anger a portion of your customers with this and other decisions when, frankly, it can be very easily avoided. I guess my point is how tone deaf the devs seem to be to their player base.

    I get what you're saying. I had that attitude when they first made that announcement, too. I'm sure there will still be people who are aggrieved by Cryptic's decision on this. I'm similarly sure that many of those people will not be aggrieved by it until 6 November, since I know it's only a minority of the players who spend any time on the forums. Personally, I understand Cryptic's logic in making this choice. I still feel people should live with the consequences of their choices. At the same time, this is a game and Cryptic's decision to give away Gathering to people who leveled a profession other than Leadership should help keep the game fun for them. I've decided to just resign myself to the fact that Cryptic has made the decision and there is no arguing them into changing it. After all, I'm in the minority of the playerbase, too, because I actually leveled all the professions on each of thirteen characters. So what would there be for Cryptic to give me to "compensate" for the fact that I leveled Mailsmithing and Platesmithing, which are being combined into Armorsmithing? And that's to say nothing of the fact there isn't much they could give me for also leveling Leadership. In the end, this is just not worth allowing it to stick in your craw and aggravate you.
  • dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    Sorry but after all these years I see no reason for this much of a change wiping out years of time effort and money. Do not say oh but there giving you voucers ,yes for something that I do not want nor do I have any interest in doing . After 5 plus years playing I think if I had any interest in doing these other skills I probly would have.Also there is farming "gathering you will have to do , or the game is lying when your retainer tells you some items you will have to either trade for or buy from the AH. Who you trading with the game or other players? If you are trading with other players how did the get the item? Did they have to farm "gather" it or was it just pesto in their backpack? If you buy from the AH how did it get there? Did the game just put it there or did a player? If a player put it there how did they get it? Did it just appear in their backpack or did they have to farm "gather" it?
    "What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    @dingoballz I don't know what else to say to you. You need to educate yourself about how the new professions system works before continuing to vomit about how much you hate it and how much it sucks. Every time you post about that you just reveal how little you actually know and how little you've even bothered to read in the preview thread on the subject.

    Unless you're actively sitting there and rushing your crafting projects, I really don't think there is going to be much of a time investment in actually doing crafting. There might be if you're only doing crafting on a couple of characters. Maybe. I've got 17 characters to manage crafting tasks for, and I'm not expecting to spend much time at all doing this. Whatever time I do spend on it will be dramatically less than the two to two and one-half hours I spend doing it every day already. There are definitely aspects to the new system that I am not excited about. However, the way you can set tasks up to repeat and log in periodically to collect them is definitely the feature I most anticipate and am most excited about in this new system.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    I am currently expecting (or dreaming) that I will spend less time than I am currently spending on leadership right now after I formulate what I need to do (that itself may take me a long while to figure out).
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I have been trying it out on preview and I do not like it .So to sit there saying I have no knowledge of what I am talking about shows how little you know about me. I do not need to read up on anything I can experience it first hand.
    "What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron
  • pitmonster#5684 pitmonster Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    So far on preview, I dislike the new system. There are ways they COULD improve it for me. #1 is I don't want to have to keep going into this "shop" for this. Now if they put an alter, a mailbox, etc in there then I could hang out.

    But I also HATE!!!!!!!!!!!! the random hiring HAMSTER. Just give me a list of people at various skills I can hire up front! God damn Cyrptic, why do you think that aspect would be fun???? I mean why?
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    Do you bother to do any actual testing? Or do you just look up a little information and then come spout off? All the laborers that exist in the current system get turned into vouchers.

    The problem is the value of the vouchers. All purple workers give you the same voucher, but (leadership) Heroes are just more valuable than the various grandmasters. A while ago, the AH price was like 70K for a Hero, but 20K for the others.

    Now, I have a full set of Heroes, as I basically just run Leadership non-stop in 8-9 slots to create RPs (but I have 2-3 purple workers in every other profession too). For me, the loss of RP income is much more significant than the issue of not getting a fair compensation for my former Heroes.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    Do you bother to do any actual testing? Or do you just look up a little information and then come spout off? All the laborers that exist in the current system get turned into vouchers.

    The problem is the value of the vouchers. All purple workers give you the same voucher, but (leadership) Heroes are just more valuable than the various grandmasters. A while ago, the AH price was like 70K for a Hero, but 20K for the others.

    Now, I have a full set of Heroes, as I basically just run Leadership non-stop in 8-9 slots to create RPs (but I have 2-3 purple workers in every other profession too). For me, the loss of RP income is much more significant than the issue of not getting a fair compensation for my former Heroes.
    I think Hero has different amount of voucher comparing with other grandmaster. The value is based on the AH price before the new profession was announced.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User


    I think Hero has different amount of voucher comparing with other grandmaster. The value is based on the AH price before the new profession was announced.

    Ah, OK, that's good...I must admit I didn't notice it.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    Old leadership = RP, Gold and Exp.
    New Leadership = useless trash for other professions.

    90% of people ran leadership for RP.
    those 90% of the people will not run Jewelcrafting at 1 gold per peridot for RP.

    Crafting is useless to 90% of the playerbase more or less.

    Its all but too late to get required levels and assets in place to recoup costing for masterwork items (as they will be profitable for a short time after mod, before new mod makes items outdated (as it always does) , even some who have alot of these assets and levels in place, will still have to pay out of pocket a significant amount to resume crafting at profitable levels.

    My one and only concern is RP, how is it handled and will we get enough that it is not a bottle neck like it was before mod whatever fixed it by dropping RP+ Wanderers + QM.

    That we need a mount + a enchant to get RP at any reasonable rate is still concerning, as new players cannot afford alot of this stuff to progress.

    Still "trying " to figure out why it was "bad" that we saved our boxes to open during double events..

    ... or you could've just done what some of us suggested, make all RP out of boxes account bound I guess, would've been fine by me.

    My purpose was to use it for my own toons, not sell them, I know others who did, and I was fine by that as well.

    Not really sad to see leadership gone, I did it on 13 toons took up 20-30 mins of my morning, fine if you want to give that back to me. As long as RP is handled ok.


  • dingoballzdingoballz Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    Well all I can say is I will not be doing this garbage professions after they change it just hope I'll be able to sell off those worthless voucher's and regroup at least a small % of my loses. But on the bright side I'll have more time to play a great game that I have been playing since the late 90's Ultima Online.
    "What is the sense of living the life you're given if all you ever do is stand in one place?" Lord Huron
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    @dingoballz Yeah, there'll still be a market for those things. There will also be one for existing tools and probably even for existing resources. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Honestly, I'd just hold onto your vouchers for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if the prices for them goes back up to near what they cost before this update was announced. It'll just require some patience, which you do not seem to be lacking.
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