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M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • Hi

    Blood soaked blade feat is broken - deal 0 poison damage - tested in first group enemies in dragon map
    Also i remember that Blood soaked blade dealt BASIC damage from weapon. it did not take power into account :( like Oppressive Darkness or one of sabouter tree ability when active stealth but it was test from before. (flat damage that does not increase from other sources)

    Talisman of shadows - slow effect never popup - DAZE effect chance is LOW - to tell you the true the synergy is broken. Active stealth make all tager stop moving as we are in stealth MODE? is there need for slow? in PVP map control effect do not exist? with 1-2s duration. Active stealth mean all mobs stop moving
    Could Talisman of shadows reduce resistance per number of targets it daze? It could work similar to Razor action artifact weapon class feature( I tested it with many ways)

    I would want to add something about feats and encounters feedback that are still useless in game:

    1)FEAT: Improved cunning sneak MAX level give 20% more stealth meter. The position of this ability is bettween 9% increase of damage and 6% increase in damage.(Wiseman will pick % damage) 1 single hit from at-wills and 20-40% of stealh is gone. Encounter hit and Stealth is gone.
    Please consider increase MAX value from 20% to 100% It can be nerfed any time, but please let TR experience this. The damage remove the stealth but also longer stealth mean nerf to cunning ambusher. It could be later nerfed if cause problem and adjust to The 2 feat in the same column.

    2)Shadow Disappearance encounter - what happend to this ability is an improvement which i like. My experience with running to group of monster first without a tank ends with death everysingle time I forget to use Imposible to catch with 50% damage resistance increase, but i still have 100% deflect but it does not help much in tong - undead groups.
    Please consider adding 30% damage resistance for 5s like it is now for impossible to catch(25%) I know that with Stealth effect we dont leave the stealth MODE, but our next combo atack will result with DEATH.

    3)First strike - This ability is only used with LASHING blade that is not fully buffed from bonding. In PVP it would be used as HIT and run strategy but is it good if you still have a better picks?.
    Please consider merging First strike into 'Sneak Atack passive that got reworked'
    The sneak Atack in D&D 1k6 damage per odd TR class level when atack from stealth or behind. IF we use our first strike passive then we will still have ability to lower cooldown and move faster in stealth. This would not result in HIT and run strategy. OFF-hand Artifact feat power should be considered.
    Please consider the merge then there would be a spot for a NEW passive ability for TR (e.g.AGRRO generator or party buff that grand 20% TR power to others(and himself) when he active daily? it could be anything TR community request or ability to make TR a tank in RAQ/REQ)


    and LAST

    DEFT Strike improvment when we use it with Stealth.
    Please consider adding new effect when we target teamMember
    a) Shadow Disappearance - 2.5s dissapirance of the target (in PVP we would save him)
    b) increase deflect chance for 50% for 3s
    c) heal 20% of max health
    d) give immunity for 2s to damage(remember that we need to have Stealth active and select target)
    e) remove control effect (like it is for impossible to catch)
    I really do not know what would make this ability good enought to consider. It has a good synergy with some feats that are triggered when hit from behind but there exist better abilities that do not have this silly rule of hitting from behind. The idea is that to make it also a supporting encounter.

    I do not think i will be heard, but at last i try to propose some changes to unused abilities.
    (I tested Bait and switch and the aggro removing ability works. Maybe it will work fine in FBI on giants)

  • rustyroo13#1749 rustyroo13 Member Posts: 39 Arc User

    To the developers,




    And now you're going to nerf the TRs so bad that we have to go back to the way we were. And for what, because a bunch of GWFs get butt hurt that they are not the biggest and baddest every single time they play. Because they don't get all of the rewards all the time. Because they get killed by TRs in PVP once or twice? Are they the only ones allowed to kill anything? How is that fair? If i don't get the lucky hit in that kills a mob, then I can't even get the chance to pick up radients, or brutals or gems so I can refine my stuff. They do more damage than I ever could dream of EVERY time I play with one who is on an equal item level. Where is their nerf to make them my equals? I don't even do PVP and have no inclination to ever play PVP, but I'm going to suffer because of it. You say that there were a lot of calls for these changes, but I can guarantee that not a single one of them was a TR.




    PacoTheMexican ~~ Xbox Gamertag

    Well said! You know we are all thinking it!

    I said it before and I will say it again: if those PvP complaints are truly the reason behind these changes, then that is the lamest excuse for nerfing the TR I've ever heard.

    Arielle Redbow half-elf Warden Ranger
    Guild: Guardians of the Forest
  • doublerainbow#8002 doublerainbow Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    It would be nice to know if what is happening to the TR is what's to be expected for the other dps classes in the upcoming mods. We already know the DPSGF is most likely getting a rework in mod 16. Are the HR and GWF getting reworked so they are on the same level as the SW and CW?

    I have never seen it thoroughly communicated how the development team plans to achieve the class balance.

    But seriously, if TR's are doing less damage than SW's and CW's how are we supposed to get into end game runs? The buffs that CW's and SW's provide are superior to those that the TR provides and nobody cares if we can disarm a trap. NOBODY!
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    @noworries#8859

    Issue with Impossible to Catch (caused by the October 13 preview patch):

    I logged into preview today and did some gameplay with the patched version of impossible to catch. While I like that you guys tried to fix the ITC + prone/dodge bug, the fix that was implemented came with some terrible side effects. ITC now works just like the experimental version of it that was implemented during module 10.5. Here is what I mean by that:

    When the shadewalker's artifact weapon set was introduced in module 10.5, the devs changed the way ITC activates in order to make it easier for TRs to activate the new weapon set bonus. Unfortunately, that tweak had a side effect that made it so ITC could no longer be activated during our other attacks; ITC would either interrupt our other attacks or would not fire until the attack ended. This made ITC much more cumbersome to work with and it didn't synergize well with our rotations. This change was so hated back then that the devs completely reverted that version of ITC within the first few weeks.

    Fast fowarding to right now, TRs hate the version of ITC currently on preview every bit as much as we did in module 10.5 when the exact same thing happened. Please revert ITC back to how it was before the October 13 preview patch notes happened. We would rather deal with the prone/dodge bug than get stuck with the new way ITC activates.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • mikal#9243 mikal Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    The sad truth is they don't care about the effect changes on PVE because this has very little (if anything) to do with PVE. They are all PVP

    -Smoke bomb now lands at feet, not ahead of player. So we are standing in the middle of our "control" ability...reducing its effective range.
    -Smoke bomb no longer slows. So opponents can easily escape the area of effect in a split second.
    -ALL movement speed buffs removed. So the TR can't get a quick follow up attack on the retreating opponent.
    -ITC now reverted to not work with at wills and encounters correctly. Reduces our survivability so other players can get cheap and easy kills on rogues.
    -DF bleed nerf. Makes the at will far less attractive to use because its final hits allows damage resistance. Again making us easy prey in PVP. If this was purely about bleed damage being too strong then why are GF's allowed like 800% bleed damage? This is about blunting rogues in PVP and very little more.

    Yes, powerlooping was a problem that should be fixed. But at least be honest about these changes, its easy enough to see.
  • xtreeme123xtreeme123 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I must say that I'm severly dissapointed in the developers team "balance" standpoint. Having a TR geared for 3+ years, invested time and money into the game only to end up with a class that is uncomparable to others - which will end up in a situation where other classes shall be preferred in PVE raids, leaving TR as underdogs. Even now I might be kicked from a TONG random group because instead of a TR damage dealer they prefer a OP or DC buffer (even if they have one).

    If the dev team has made such (planned) changes, then I request them to post the references they have used to come to these conclusions.
  • mazeppa79#6238 mazeppa79 Member Posts: 17 Arc User

    -Lurker's Assault-

    We need an offensive daily for single target. As Courage Breaker is only defensive now, Lurker's is the only option. I have 2 different ideas to enhance it:

    1-Reduce the action points cost. Some Hunter's dailies work this way, right?

    2-Make it possible to use Lurker's when AP's gauge is not 100% full. The less AP's consumed, the less buff we get. Example:
    100% AP's=full buff
    66% AP's=less buff
    33% AP's=even less buff
  • sheogorath12sheogorath12 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    20 pages of only negative reviews and nobody does anything about it

    @noworries#8859
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    Thief should excel at single target. No idea about AoE, or PvP if that even still matters, but yeah, I get the logic behind it, smoke bomb literally doesn't look like a damaging power. Mod 14 SoD is a bit too strong in Cradle when all buffs coordinate into a SoD, but that's mainly due to the skill mechanics and coordination and changing only one of those unwanted interactions would have already brought down thiefs damage output by quite a bit.

  • ominousominous Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Idk if they made tr weaker overall yet.
    Those debuffs to armor pen and damage might be a bit of support, but do a lot of people need that? I'm at 100% so will I have to lower it if a power lowers damage resistance? I like the idea of fluid attacks and the cooldown ap gain or deflect damage, but it seems like from these comments some people think our base damage is to low and are worried without power looping that it won't work.
    I hope the animation's \frames per attack is faster and more fluid, then maybe the numbers will make sense to them? (I'm looking at you with that hyper fast burst DMG. Uppercut gwf!) I hope duelist doesn't feel as clunky or any move really, I will be cautiously optimistic.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    ominous said:

    Idk if they made tr weaker overall yet.

    Those debuffs to armor pen and damage might be a bit of support, but do a lot of people need that? I'm at 100% so will I have to lower it if a power lowers damage resistance? I like the idea of fluid attacks and the cooldown ap gain or deflect damage, but it seems like from these comments some people think our base damage is to low and are worried without power looping that it won't work.

    I hope the animation's \frames per attack is faster and more fluid, then maybe the numbers will make sense to them? (I'm looking at you with that hyper fast burst DMG. Uppercut gwf!) I hope duelist doesn't feel as clunky or any move really, I will be cautiously optimistic.

    Yea, TRs are hitting for much less. As much as 50% less, really.

    And GWFs' only burst is IBS, which isn't really that impressive, compared to the crowned king of burst damage which is Griffon's Wrath.
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    So my post about tr's being made a cheerleader or even better... a dummy due to low dps, movement/speed, etc has been deleted.

    So writing the truth about what the nerf did to tr isn't allowed i guess. So sad !
    I bet this post going to be deleted too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • ominousominous Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > Idk if they made tr weaker overall yet.
    >
    > Those debuffs to armor pen and damage might be a bit of support, but do a lot of people need that? I'm at 100% so will I have to lower it if a power lowers damage resistance? I like the idea of fluid attacks and the cooldown ap gain or deflect damage, but it seems like from these comments some people think our base damage is to low and are worried without power looping that it won't work.
    >
    > I hope the animation's \frames per attack is faster and more fluid, then maybe the numbers will make sense to them? (I'm looking at you with that hyper fast burst DMG. Uppercut gwf!) I hope duelist doesn't feel as clunky or any move really, I will be cautiously optimistic.
    >
    > Yea, TRs are hitting for much less. As much as 50% less, really.
    >
    > And GWFs' only burst is IBS, which isn't really that impressive, compared to the crowned king of burst damage which is Griffon's Wrath.

    I took percussion for two years, and let me just say that the uppercut sword slash (while maybe doesn't show well on damage board, did you mean?) Kills even tank mobs before I get past my duelist flurry cross slash. They then zip sprint to the next group and do the same there. A gwf once told me they shoot knives while doing that too? Idk about that, but from what I see I can say, "Your tempo is beyond me." Idk if you guys do your damage because of the uppercut or knive, all I know is that if I'm not there before the start of that animation, I shouldn't bother even considering it a target and just hope it's within smoke bomb range to maybe catch the last drip of damage before it dies. Then I have to wait for bleeds... My Sod when it hits imitates that kind of health cleave, but it seems that the uppercut is always up.. add a sprint and I'm better off fighting a different mob entirely. Thankfully, dazing strike seems to have similar cooldown and equal frames in animation.. The damage isn't burst single target but instead a spread shot cone. So if a gwf starts melting a group, my strike plus the boots that add damage to foes below certain health helps a lot in keeping up. Still, on bosses I just hope for second. They should hire fighting game devs to see if they can marry the numbers to the timing on moves. I just want all dps classes to have potential. My one and two and three vs one e and uh two e and uh
    Just feels bad man.( that's if I'm lucky and get a gwf 2000 IL below me.)
  • ominousominous Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    to clarify, dazing strike damage burst within the same time frame of first 1-2 uppercut animation burst seems to draw fair amount of enemy blood in a crowd. I.e. the health bar dropping/being affected on bad guys are similar although my strike animation may be faster or less of a wind up.
  • wiedzma69#9870 wiedzma69 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    .
  • ominousominous Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    All I'm saying is if I'm the snare drum, fast with dot fine. Gwf can be base drum and melt my targets, sure, but don't be faster than most of my moves and have a Sprint to be faster than me and get heavy plate armor..
  • rangerlenierrangerlenier Member Posts: 21 Arc User

    To the developers,



    I'm a 14.2K tr that plays on XBox One. Up until 14, I have not been able to do much damage at all. I would get in lucky hits here and there, but never do much damage. Even with grinding as much as possible because I can't afford to dump money into a game all the time, it took me a very long time to get where I am at. Because of such, before 14, I never got to play end game dungeons. I never have been in Cradle to this day. I never have been part of a t3 dino hunt. I never had a +5 of anything or ever been able to upgrade weapons because I need what is dropped in end game dungeons. I have only been able to get primal items because everyone drops the seals needed now. If it wasn't for that, I would still would be doing complete HAMSTER damage. The few times I got into TONG, it was with other TRs or very low level players who weren't allowed in any other group. People who only could play TONG by joining the public queue and waiting, quite literally, all day for it to pop. If we were lucky we would get past the first area. I think I have been to Orcus maybe twice, maybe three times prior to 14. I had never been past Orcus, ever.



    As for other dungeons, only on old ones (i.e. Castle Never) would I be able to do any real damage. I would always be at the bottom rungs of any leader board prior to 14. I hear, "well you're supposed be in groups! Answer public calls! Get with your friends! Get with your guilds!" If I did try to join any group for any public calls in chat, they would refuse to let in any tr. They would take in a 13k GWF over my 14.2K any day. I don't have many friends at all and of them, only my Fiance and and my best friend play Neverwinter. We are not strong enough to run any of these dungeons with just us three. And even though I'm in a big guild with many small alliances, they only care about doing stronghold stuff. And the few times that there are actually members want to try to run dungeons, they still refused TRs! And the sad thing is I don't blame them. They want to finish. They want to beat the bosses. They need people that can support or bring damage.



    Prior to 14, TRs could do neither. Even with the groups out there and guides on how to maximize damage done by a TR ( created by a few god sends that worked their butts off for absolutely no reward other than the knowledge that what they did, helped everyone else out who's a lowly TR), I wasn't able to do anything, because I couldn't get into the battles where I could even get the equipment needed. I would have to be lucky enough to pull something from a lockbox if I wanted to get higher or had to grind away week after week after week if I wanted to buy something form the Astral house. Even when you finally can afford to buy something good, a good amount of the equipment needed wasn't for sale because it binds on pickup. Until a week or two ago, I was still running a Lostmouth set because I couldn't afford to get a Orcus set. Now I'm grinding away just to try to get it back up to legend and mythic.



    But when Mod 14 cam out, everything changed. I'm was finally able to do some damage with the Lostmouth set I had and now of course with my Orcus set I can do even more. I finally made it to 2nd place a few times in the leader boards. I even made it 1st place on CN once or twice, but only because I was playing with lower level players. Hell I finally was able to do damage in TONG for the first time ever. In the only one time since 14 came out that I was able to get into a public queue for TONG, we had 2 good players, 2 ok players and 1 with an item level that he was barely able to get into TONG. We didn't get past Orcus again, but at least I finally did damage. I actually did over 108 million total in the three attempts we did against Orcus. I actually see groups asking for TRs to try endgame dungeons now. I finally feel like I'm actually contributing to a group and not just hiding behind everyone. Prior to 14 I was considering bagging my TR and starting all over just so I could see what it's like to get to the end of TONG or get in once to see Cradle or even just to get past the sisters. With 14 I feel like I could actually get a chance if I'm lucky enough to get into a public queue for one of them again. I don't fear being booted right out once I get into a hard dungeon. I finally feel accomplished



    And now you're going to nerf the TRs so bad that we have to go back to the way we were. And for what, because a bunch of GWFs get butt hurt that they are not the biggest and baddest every single time they play. Because they don't get all of the rewards all the time. Because they get killed by TRs in PVP once or twice? Are they the only ones allowed to kill anything? How is that fair? If i don't get the lucky hit in that kills a mob, then I can't even get the chance to pick up radients, or brutals or gems so I can refine my stuff. They do more damage than I ever could dream of EVERY time I play with one who is on an equal item level. Where is their nerf to make them my equals? I don't even do PVP and have no inclination to ever play PVP, but I'm going to suffer because of it. You say that there were a lot of calls for these changes, but I can guarantee that not a single one of them was a TR.



    It makes no sense what you are going to do to us in 15. You are essentially telling us that we're allowed to play your game and dump money in your game, but don't ever think about trying to beat the game because no one wants you, ever! Don't you know what that's like anymore? To get picked last or not at all because of who you are? Because of your lack of abilities? I know some of you developers have to of been nerds or outcasts in high school and know what I'm talking about. You have to remember those feelings. The dread you felt when it came time to pick teams in gym class. The humiliation and shame you felt, that ate away at your soul when you knew nobody wanted you. I do. I was a nerd in school and still am a nerd. And I know that feeling all too well. I don't know if I can back to that point. I don't know if I can go back to not being allowed to play with the big kids again.



    PacoTheMexican ~~ Xbox Gamertag

    all of this, i have a lvl70 of each class, but tr is my personal favourite. It just seemed to be getting to a reasonable level performance wise. but next Mod? just doing the normal leveling stuff is going to be hard. just because the 1% can put out those numbers is no reason to just screw the rest of us. I remember when each class could be played reasonably on any of the 3 trees. now its just what? 3 classes with one tree each that is at all competitive? i can understand tweaking a bit to fix a problem, but taking an axe to the class is a bit heavy handed. and where are all the devs? i thought this was supposed to be a discussion? its looking more like they want us to fix the bugs for them and ignore what is being said
  • maturutukimaturutuki Member Posts: 74 Arc User

    .. I remember when each class could be played reasonably on any of the 3 trees. ...

    For me, good idea is making Saboteur tree reworked into debuffer as it add diversity to TR builds, possibility to easier party finding, is in pair with tree name and with good thinking about rework may allow to make 2 TRs in party without stacking same stacks.


  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    ominous said:

    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

    > Idk if they made tr weaker overall yet.

    >

    > Those debuffs to armor pen and damage might be a bit of support, but do a lot of people need that? I'm at 100% so will I have to lower it if a power lowers damage resistance? I like the idea of fluid attacks and the cooldown ap gain or deflect damage, but it seems like from these comments some people think our base damage is to low and are worried without power looping that it won't work.

    >

    > I hope the animation's \frames per attack is faster and more fluid, then maybe the numbers will make sense to them? (I'm looking at you with that hyper fast burst DMG. Uppercut gwf!) I hope duelist doesn't feel as clunky or any move really, I will be cautiously optimistic.

    >

    > Yea, TRs are hitting for much less. As much as 50% less, really.

    >

    > And GWFs' only burst is IBS, which isn't really that impressive, compared to the crowned king of burst damage which is Griffon's Wrath.



    I took percussion for two years, and let me just say that the uppercut sword slash (while maybe doesn't show well on damage board, did you mean?) Kills even tank mobs before I get past my duelist flurry cross slash. They then zip sprint to the next group and do the same there. A gwf once told me they shoot knives while doing that too? Idk about that, but from what I see I can say, "Your tempo is beyond me." Idk if you guys do your damage because of the uppercut or knive, all I know is that if I'm not there before the start of that animation, I shouldn't bother even considering it a target and just hope it's within smoke bomb range to maybe catch the last drip of damage before it dies. Then I have to wait for bleeds... My Sod when it hits imitates that kind of health cleave, but it seems that the uppercut is always up.. add a sprint and I'm better off fighting a different mob entirely. Thankfully, dazing strike seems to have similar cooldown and equal frames in animation.. The damage isn't burst single target but instead a spread shot cone. So if a gwf starts melting a group, my strike plus the boots that add damage to foes below certain health helps a lot in keeping up. Still, on bosses I just hope for second. They should hire fighting game devs to see if they can marry the numbers to the timing on moves. I just want all dps classes to have potential. My one and two and three vs one e and uh two e and uh

    Just feels bad man.( that's if I'm lucky and get a gwf 2000 IL below me.)

    Reaping strike? No one uses that HAMSTER.

    In any case, if in M14 you're getting beaten in DPS by a 2k lower IL GWF, you got a problem beyond balance.
  • Smoke Bomb vs. Blade Flurry

    My main problem with Blade Flurry is being locked into 4 attacks to get the most of it, while with Smoke Bomb I can fire and forget and use other damaging Encounters. And the Blade Flurry cooldown never seems to mesh well with other cooldowns.

    Since I'm on ps4 I want to ask you testers about it, is Smoke Bomb still a must have on a loadout?
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    Smoke Bomb vs. Blade Flurry

    My main problem with Blade Flurry is being locked into 4 attacks to get the most of it, while with Smoke Bomb I can fire and forget and use other damaging Encounters. And the Blade Flurry cooldown never seems to mesh well with other cooldowns.

    Since I'm on ps4 I want to ask you testers about it, is Smoke Bomb still a must have on a loadout?

    If changes go live as they are, smoke bomb will still be used on bosses because of the AP gain and fire and forget thing, even tho the damage it gives has been lowered by huge amount.
    For aoe mob fights you have a choice of 4 encounters with Dazing Strike being a must one and the other 2 you can pick for yourself. Potb, Smoke Bomb, Blade Flurry and Dazing Strike are going to be aoe encounters, pick 3 (2) you like.
    image
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    With smoke bombs immediate dmg being toned down this should count as a control effect (always should have).
  • mikal#9243 mikal Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    Still silence from the Devs? Can't say i'm surprised.
    20 pages of nothing but negative feedback and a lot of players on the verge of quitting the game....and silence
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    Since the last patch on Live server the Bloodbath Daily power doesnt activate Invisible Infiltrator passive at all.
    Also, from time to time it now occurs that Invisible infiltrator doesnt refill Stealth after using Lurkers Assault. This was tested today in Live runs and occurred several times.
    image
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer
    blur#5900 said:

    Since the last patch on Live server the Bloodbath Daily power doesnt activate Invisible Infiltrator passive at all.
    Also, from time to time it now occurs that Invisible infiltrator doesnt refill Stealth after using Lurkers Assault. This was tested today in Live runs and occurred several times.

    Were the dailies used quickly after one another? It can't apply more often than once every 5 seconds.

    If that's not the case is there any thing that is consistent across the times it isn't applying? Some other power always used before hand or any character action that may be linked to the issue?
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer
    thesakari said:

    With smoke bombs immediate dmg being toned down this should count as a control effect (always should have).

    This is one of those aspects that there tends to be a lot of confusion about. The reason for that confusion is we have a lot of tooltips, and sometimes mechanics, that aren't explained well.

    Smoke bomb does count as a control effect. If a player or critter is under the effects of Smoke Bomb, they are tagged as being controlled.

    The disconnect is combat advantage. Being in a controlled state does NOT mean that the target is always receiving combat advantage damage. There are some powers, like dazing strike, where that was added in as a benefit, but it is not an aspect of being a control power.

    Because it isn't called out on the tooltips of the powers where this does happen (Which is should be), it creates a situation where it seems like that is just what control does to a target, when in reality it is completely separate from control states.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    There has certainly be plenty of posts about the lack of feedback across the class threads. Since the TR thread has the most activity, I wanted to post a response to that.

    Changes over Time:

    In the past we would hold off on big changes, like class balance, until we had time to fully invest in doing all the changes we wanted to a class in one go. Players pointed out how they didn't like that approach as it meant long periods of time went by without changes to a specific feature/part of the game.

    Due to this, we discussed doing partial changes more frequently so that progress can be seen and we can step our way towards the end goals over multiple modules. The response to that was generally positive and it seemed players would prefer that method going forward.

    M15 is one of the first big tests of that. We did a chunk of class balancing and are already doing more of it for M16 (and undoubtedly M17 although that is a bit too far away to have specific plans yet).

    On one hand, there has been some positive feedback from this and understanding that it is a multi-part process. On the other hand, there is a lot of feedback of many other changes being required right now and waiting wouldn't be acceptable for those players.

    And that is the ever ongoing balancing act. Do we hold off longer to get bigger changes all at once, or do we do smaller incremental changes to dial everything in and make continual process? No matter how we split that up, someone is going to be unhappy, especially if the issue they find most important isn't addressed yet, or isn't addressed the way they want it to. And that brings me to feedback.


    Feedback:

    There is no question that gamers on forums, of all types of games, would always prefer more feedback/more back and forth with the developers. I'm a gamer as much as I am a dev and I also enjoy getting to see feedback from developers on games I play. And it is also easy to say that we don't get to post feedback as much as we'd like ourselves, let alone how much players would like us to.

    For this preview in particular, it just happened that the developer who did the majority of the class balance work moved onto other adventures. While this is normal in this industry, and most others, the timing did make it a bit trickier. (Thanks for all the work you did for Neverwinter, Balanced. I wish you all the luck in your certain to be successful career). He had actually left just before preview but we wanted him to be able to write up his thoughts and information on his changes which is why all the initial posts were written by him.

    There was almost two weeks where all I did was read/fix bugs/adjust powers from the class threads, and that didn't leave much time for posting responses (I even had help in parsing through all those threads and compiling the bugs/ complaints/ feedback). And during this time I had other work already scheduled which I had to get caught back up on once those fixes were addressed.

    Undoubtedly that all sounds like a lot of excuses, and to a certain extent it is. But it is also laying out the reality of the situation. The important part is that we read a lot more than we post.

    Just remember to keep the feedback civil. There are times that developers will give answers that you don't like. Feedback isn't simply developers agreeing to a player idea or suggestion, it is both agreeing and disagreeing depending on the topic, just as players will agree or disagree with any given change/addition we make. If we post a response and players who don't like it then flood other threads with attacking posts to try to get further responses from us, we can't respond to that. Responding to those types of posts would encourage more of that behavior.

    To be clear, that is not the norm and a lot of players give civil and valuable feedback even when being critical of our decisions, and we do appreciate that.

    I know people would prefer an answer as simple as "We will post more responses going forward", but it is never that simple or easy and I don't want to mislead anyone.


    TL:DR

    We know you would like more feedback from us on the forums, especially during preview times. We'd also like to provide more feedback and do so more often. It is a tough balance between getting the work done and responding on the forums and there is room for improvement on our end. But we do read the forums and your feedback even if we don't respond. Keep it civil.

    The issue is that our feedback doesn't seem to do much.

    I could say "a certain TR is holding my family hostage and will shoot them upon M15 release if TR doesn't get buffed by 20%" and you'd say something along the lines of "best I can do is -20% DPS".

    This is what is the issue. Players who actively play the game and figure out maths have more insight on balance than the devs because you're devs, and it doesn't seem like you can perceive how your players actually want to play.

    That is the core issue here. You can be the best dev ever, but if you don't use the players' insight (as in valid testers such as Meme the dagger and Blur in the TR's case, and Itbls and Sharpedge in CW's case and so on), you won't be able to test every power interacting with everything else. You can have hypothetical situations in which maths shows one thing, but players get completely different results because the hypothetical situations are rarely true in dungeons.

    And also, some devs seem to think that control is still relevant, and is as important as mashing enemies' faces into the dirt. That's the plain ol' "ya wrong, ya numpty" argument.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,136 Arc User

    blur#5900 said:

    Since the last patch on Live server the Bloodbath Daily power doesnt activate Invisible Infiltrator passive at all.
    Also, from time to time it now occurs that Invisible infiltrator doesnt refill Stealth after using Lurkers Assault. This was tested today in Live runs and occurred several times.

    Were the dailies used quickly after one another? It can't apply more often than once every 5 seconds.

    If that's not the case is there any thing that is consistent across the times it isn't applying? Some other power always used before hand or any character action that may be linked to the issue?
    @noworries#8859

    Invisible infiltrator does not proc AT ALL when you use bloodbath on live right now. Doesn't matter if you used 1 daily or a rapid succession of dailies. The quoted post below is my PC bug report on this bug:

    The 10/18/18 patch notes tried to carry out the following bugfix:
    "Trickster Rogue: Invisible Infiltrator now only procs once off a single cast of Bloodbath."


    I just tested the bugfix attempt on live. The fix appears to have gone wrong, now invisible infiltrator doesn't proc period when you use bloodbath. When you use bloodbath, your stealth bar no longer refills and the invisible infiltrator buff bar icon is completely absent.

    This is only the case for bloodbath, the other dailies still trigger invisible infiltrator as normal.

    Also, as I suspected would be the case, infiltrator's action wasn't included in this bugfix. Infiltrator's action still gives you 2 stacks for every 1 bloodbath you use. If any devs see this post, please fix this bug for both of these passives.

    Also, take a look at the WK passives while you are at it, I don't think the WK passive bug works exactly the same as the MI passive bug since their passives don't have buff icons and razor action has different mechanics than the MI passives. A couple WKs did report a while back that razor action also has a buggy interaction with bloodbath that gives them more damage than intended, not sure if any of their other passives are affected.


    I have included a link below to a more in depth thread I put up about the bug these patch notes tried to fix. I recommend keeping an eye on the comments for that thread, one of those comments mentioned more info about the razor action bug:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1243541/10-18-18-patch-notes-invisible-infiltrator-bloodbath-bugfix

    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
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