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M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    What happened to balanced ? I see Former Developer next to his name.
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • doublerainbow#8002 doublerainbow Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    The lack of communication from the devs has been dissapointing. Why even have a forum like this is an open discussion? There is 16 pages of mostly negative feedback with 1 post from the dev team. That's not good customer service.

    If I moved changes into prod with the vast majority of the feedback being negative I would lose my job.
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    Conducted an test on preview shard with an equally geared TR. I was executioner, he was scoundrel. He beat me on every boss fight by significant margins. He did not have to time anything, he just button mashed when anything was up and focused on keeping bleeds up with his at wills. I focused on my rotations and maximizing SoD.

    Looks like TR design is heading to the same mechanics as GWFs.
  • miche80miche80 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    thesakari said:

    Conducted an test on preview shard with an equally geared TR. I was executioner, he was scoundrel. He beat me on every boss fight by significant margins. He did not have to time anything, he just button mashed when anything was up and focused on keeping bleeds up with his at wills. I focused on my rotations and maximizing SoD.



    Looks like TR design is heading to the same mechanics as GWFs.

    You with feytouch?
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    > @miche80 said:
    > Conducted an test on preview shard with an equally geared TR. I was executioner, he was scoundrel. He beat me on every boss fight by significant margins. He did not have to time anything, he just button mashed when anything was up and focused on keeping bleeds up with his at wills. I focused on my rotations and maximizing SoD.
    >
    >
    >
    > Looks like TR design is heading to the same mechanics as GWFs.
    >
    > You with feytouch?

    > @miche80 said:
    > Conducted an test on preview shard with an equally geared TR. I was executioner, he was scoundrel. He beat me on every boss fight by significant margins. He did not have to time anything, he just button mashed when anything was up and focused on keeping bleeds up with his at wills. I focused on my rotations and maximizing SoD.
    >
    >
    >
    > Looks like TR design is heading to the same mechanics as GWFs.
    >
    > You with feytouch?

    Yes
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    confirmed info:
    200k gloaming cuts in pvp on tank class, but you pve players just keep asking for more.
    So it's again situation when pve 'balance' will ruin gameplay for pvp guys.
    What you gonna do about it?

    I wager anyone looking for PVP in an MMO be looking at Guild Wars 2 (or 1) where the game and classes are designed around PVP. Until MMOs can make bosses that have AI matching the human's capability for abstract thinking, PVE and PVP must be separately designed. Because your enemies in PVP play a lot different than your enemies in PVE.

    Dark Age of Camelot is another MMO great at PVP. However, it makes me fall asleep in PVE. Because the mechanics, skills, even content, encounter, map design (arena design in GW 1/2) were implemented as tools geared towards good and enjoyable PVP gameplay. Skills that allow you to outsmart other people. And thus really pointless and uninteresting skills in terms of fighting in PVE enemies that have negative IQ.

    Games pretty much fall apart if they try to do both equally. Until they manage to balance the intelligence of players and mobs both, that is. and Maybe you can let players control "PVE" bosses. (Can you imagine how scary that would be?)
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    Maybe you can let players control "PVE" bosses. (Can you imagine how scary that would be?)

    Haaa, back in the Neverwinter Nights days, when I was DM, with my invisible DM avatar, jumping into any PNJ/monster/boss to incarnate it, waving, stalking, scaring and putting my little roleplayers communauty into extremely difficult fights or roleplay situations that are coming out of the blue.... If i'm correct, Lineage had had also a bunch of DM, UO saw some epic lord british events (and french Dofus servers in the mid 2000 had also seen some DM/MJ actions). Was a funny era to play (m)moRPg.
    It's really sad mmorpgs nowdays don't go for some DM to really enliven their world (even if that's never hiting a large part of the players), making some content out of the eventually boring same scripted quests/events, known by heart dungeons, and very predictible AI.

    And because it is the TR thread : I upvote for the return of stealing in player character's pocket for the TR, cutting the purses and grabing the gold. Want to be more a thief than a rogue : We are already hated, let's go further !
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited October 2018



    I think the problem with CWs is that it's a Controller/Striker. Controlling/debuffs are way less important than buffs at the state of the game. As opposed to the Scourge Warlock who is Striker/Leader, and because their "Leader" skills are well done, the SW is very welcome.

    Granted, I don't know 4E that well, but I'm familiar with 3/3.5E, and from that point of view Neverwinter Online focuses too much into niche specializations/subclasses of 4E classes. In 3E (and most likely 4E) Paladins did have auras and Clerics have similar spells... But Clerics were versatile.. they pre-buffed as well as provide even single target buffs during the battle and not just auras. Deciding whether to cast shields (both single targeted shields and party targeted shields) against an element, multiple elements, demons, shadowy, etc. etc. Pre-buffing, yes, does exist and is important, but it's too overshadowed by current in-combat mechanics. Or, who knows, why not a "ranged aura" where there's like a donut hole in the middle, where a Paladin provides its normal "close-ranged aura." That's not to say that Auras and the like should be taken away. I would simply add more options

    Because being driven into a niche affects not just the individual player but the party composition, and by affecting party composition the aforementioned individual has now affected the gameplay and fun of the other party members who are individual players.

    ---

    Relatively off topic, but NWO right now is in a different situation of "unbalanced" than what is typical. We currently don't have OP classes. We have very few well done classes, and the rest are underpowered. Thus, the idea of a "nerf" to any class in NWO is the method of balancing. Hell, the competitive classes should be prepared for them to have their classes nerfed to the underpowered boringness of the ones who are not up to par. I've posted in the GWF thread mainly praising how their class in mod15 is being treated with understanding of the class playstyle. And that it would be real nice to see every class, not just the TR.

    Of course, eventually every class will inevitably be driven into the dirt. For balancing purposes.

    I think the devs will be modifying the game to the point where all classes will have one support role and one DPS role or two support roles. This will allow us to play more than one specific build with our characters. For to long all I have heard from the TR and GWF community is, we only have one build DPS.

    My guess is by mod 16 we will have 3 support roles and the damage role. The support roles will be Tank, healer and buffer. My guess is that the buffer role will be able to provide the highest % of buffs for group while the healer and tank roles will be adjusted downward for buffing. This means less buffs from Templocks, DC, GF and OPs. This would mean HR, TR and CW would get an adjustment to our buffing roles to make us stronger or the adjustment to the healer/tank classes would be so significant that you have to bring along a buffing role or two buffers to get through content.

    That is my guess as the devs seem inclined to remove the double anything meta. This would mean no stacking of tanks or DCs, etc unless the 2nd role is that of a DPS. We will have to wait and see how this all plays out.

    I play all three of the current roles and honestly, my favorite role that I play does not even exist it is the buffing role and I do this on my CW regularly. I really hope the devs make buffing a role and continue to adjust the game so that healers heal and tanks tank with both offering some buffs but not to the same degree as the buffing role that exist in my mind, lol...

    I am just going to wait it out and see how it unfolds as I do have all classes and it is not that hard for me to simply move enchantments over to the class that makes the most sense come the next mod.
  • cecilya85#5812 cecilya85 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I tell what the it is going to be: kill 1 class after the other! So it will be a 3 class game: GWF, OP and DC...

    Everything else will be done like SW and CW as DPS classes and GF as Tank... but they can compare this with some buff/debuff build... what I think it’s great, because I personally take GWFs only in my group when I can’t find someone else...

    But for the TR you don’t have such a tree, we only got that DPS trees... and I don’t want a buff/debuff tree or something like it... it would feel so wrong... TR are assassins and this should be it

    I see power looping has to be erased but not in that way...

    Increase the cool down of itc, do a ap block Or let when daily overwrite the other...

    Make every feat tree of the TR interesting is great but without killing the executioner feats...
    I like it the most and it will be unplayable in mod 15

    And now i finally reached endgame status (17556 in R12 guild) it’s done for me...

    Split pvp from pve section to avoid more crying for nerfs on whatever class

    And to add I don’t want to play a other class or so, I don’t want a token to change class,
    I want a TR that’s competitive with other dps classes and that for every TR not just: the high geared, end game, Rank 20 guild TRs!!

    For every TR!

    This game cost me to much time and money so you can ruin it for everyone except the GWF and OP!!!

    Don’t let us down...

    Thx for reading.
  • milkyguymilkyguy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Started patching Neverwinter after half a year of hiatus, saw the "Neverwinter Class Balance" announcement, including rogue, got excited, clicked on and eventually got lead to this thread.
    Guess I'll see people around in about another 6 months.. Hah!
  • randee#8539 randee Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    I have a 17.5k tr and its really the only class I enjoy playing. I have been thru all the "sorry no tr" days and honestly the only reason I stayed was because I had some friends that would still bring me on runs.
    Between mod 12 amd now they have all quit. I have been fine as a 17.5k tr but after mod15 its looks like im gonna revisit the ol days all over again. So back then i was 2-3k ish (before ilvl changes)
    Which changed to around 13k after changes. So basically the grind for the past year to get from 13k to 17.5 was for nothing because thats about how viable I will be after mod15... a 13k tr

    I wonder if I can get a refund for all the money I spent this year because im done if these changes go live in console.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    Maybe you can let players control "PVE" bosses. (Can you imagine how scary that would be?)

    Haaa, back in the Neverwinter Nights days, when I was DM, with my invisible DM avatar, jumping into any PNJ/monster/boss to incarnate it, waving, stalking, scaring and putting my little roleplayers communauty into extremely difficult fights or roleplay situations that are coming out of the blue.... If i'm correct, Lineage had had also a bunch of DM, UO saw some epic lord british events (and french Dofus servers in the mid 2000 had also seen some DM/MJ actions). Was a funny era to play (m)moRPg.
    It's really sad mmorpgs nowdays don't go for some DM to really enliven their world (even if that's never hiting a large part of the players), making some content out of the eventually boring same scripted quests/events, known by heart dungeons, and very predictible AI.

    And because it is the TR thread : I upvote for the return of stealing in player character's pocket for the TR, cutting the purses and grabing the gold. Want to be more a thief than a rogue : We are already hated, let's go further !
    FIRST THAT WAS ME YOU WERE QUOTING.

    Secondly, I definitely got the idea from other games. I actually wasn't thinkin about NWN, but from my years of playing on persistent worlds I know exactly what you mean. Too bad playing with a party through a dungeon never worked out. Too clunky I guess. The idea actually came from some recent e-sports game with 3 players playing the protagonists, while the 4th would be controlling the "boss" (it was an action/FPS-ey game, though, with obviously hugely different pacing).

    Basically what I was trying to relate is that in PVP you have to think outside of the box (the more surprising you can be, the better). Because other people are doing the same thing. A lot more psychology involved. There is variation in every single PVP encounter, because PVP fights are not between two stat data-sets. Fighting in PVP is about awareness + intelligence + creatively cunning.

    In PVE, there is little variation. Why? Because every single PVE monsters has a negative IQ and they are scripted to always do the same thing. All your tools that help fighting another human's psychology have zero significance and distinctness against the PVE mob.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    > Not my first post on this, But we all would like to know if your seriously takeing well thought out suggestions into account. Having a very hard time doing my daily/weekly grinds (17k+). Looking very hard to get out now, even today no one asks for a TR for anything, that should be your thermometer and the health of the TR, nerf us and let me be on my way.

    >

    > TR are one of the best dps in the game as of mod 14. For me as there is a problem with balancing PvP and PvE it will be nice to split them.

    > As there are loadouts mechanism implemented, just make PvP and PvE loadouts separately, then balance both without making compromise between PvP and PvE.

    >

    > They already have modifiers in certain powers/feats that make big changes in PVP. I don't know why they don't work on those a bit.

    >

    > I don't think Devs understand the class (well, the TR and the DC. For better or worse the HR and the CW are not changing much status quo). The GWF notes show that, at least this time, there is understanding of its gameplay, mechanics, and most importantly what is enjoyable about the class. So that they can carefully work around said theme or themes, handling the "enjoyable" aspects of the class very tenderly while roughing it up with other parts.

    >

    > CW base mechanics are changing. Since mod 12 CW went from Thaum to Opp and with mod 15 we are now going to the Renegade feat path. CW is the worst DPS in the game and nothing is changing come mode 15.

    >

    > A friend tested out the TR and the damage does drop from the mod 14 bugs and glitches that exist for TR. The cool down adjustments should not happen as it is impacting all TR builds. I hope the devs modify the cool downs a bit to make encounters come back faster for the TR as these minor changes will help quite a bit. There are a few other things but I rarely play TR but friends that have been testing it out said what they see in mod 15, hopefully the devs will come back and make further adjustments in mod 16 to improve the class further.

    >

    > What I like about the mod 15 changes is the devs seem to be making long term builds for TR, DC, etc... but as I stated in DC and CW threads, the lack of proper up front communication about the long term goal has really hurt mod 15 class balancing.



    The game is it beta mode anymore, it's too late for huge changes.



    Like any marriage you cant just change who you are to be something worse or the person you are with won't be happy.



    Like any relationship, what you do to attract someone is what you must maintain to keep them.



    That said changing all the core stuff that made our tr's work 5 years later is a great way to make us feel cheated on and find someone more loyal to us. Someone that will listen to us and hear us. Someone that understands who we are and what we want.



    We played this game because tr had the things we wanted.



    Dont ruin the relationship.



    So far all you said was," mmm.how about we move to venus" but we are still on earth. Move to venus (i.e. current mod 15 changes) and you can blast off without us.

    Since my CW has reached end game, every mod other than 14 I have had to make some pretty big changes to even make the character worth using in end game. So I don't feel for any other character at this point.

    Also you are thinking narrowly right now with the TR. DPS, DPS and DPS and OMG I'm top DPS in mod 14 devs please don't touch the TR.

    I'm sorry but even with the CW changes that I dislike, I agree things need to be adjusted and I still don't like them but I do see a long term vision there and hopefully they can make it happen to improve the CW. I see the same thing with the TR but you have to give it time.

    My gripe with mod 15 is the lack of communication and even what they did communicate it was after the fact and did not really mention that these changes are for the long term looking ahead into mod 16 or 17, etc...

    My thing is even with all of these changes I have a gut feeling down the road the devs may have to do a full revamp to the game, because even with all of these updates the game still has still has to many other issues.

    I agree with what you say in general, and I understand the long run. But these specific notes on this thread are too drastic. I would personally be okay with something more gradual and iterative. You can get a lot of long term feedback on that. These changes right here actually make people not want to play TR. Devs can't get feedback when no players are providing data and statistics to them. Especially considering that the chill, non-ridiculously-elitist-like-us, casual players will stay playing TR. Which then results in skewed, biased results, leading to patch notes that yet again do not understand the TR as played in a serious manner.

    The difference between the TR is not that the TR is changing mechanics. The difference is that the only competitive paragon and feat tree got nerfed. Now it is non-competitive. On one hand, it is true (and I am glad) that they have brought up the other two trees (Saboteur, Scoundrel). But the problem is that their "balancing" is looking like all 3 feat trees will be equally competitive as the "nerfed" Mod 15 MI executioner. And by equally competitive I mean equally non-competitive as according to the patch notes.

    See, you still have a choice. An alternative. You are limited in selection and creativity in mod15, yes, but you can at least switch to Renegade and be welcome to groups XD. TR doesn't have a competitive alternative, unfortunately, unless they buff Saboteur and/or Scoundrel to the point where they are stronger than the nerfed Exec. If Saboteur or Scoundrel end up party-invite viable, then I would have barely any problem with the TR.

    I actually have a Opp/Thaum and a Ren/Thaum right now. The only reason I'm non-Thaum is that I want to not just do DPS but hybrid it up with other tools. There are Thaum builds, it's just that a lot of "purists" (which most guide writers are) find that Thaum is too selfish for a party.

    And Forgotten Realms Wizards (and DnD in general) have many schools where DPS tends to be the minority. They are robe-wearers that draw on Mystra's Weave. There's Abjuration, aka deflection/protection spells. Conjurers, who conjure conjurable conjurees. I have no idea what the "Divine school" is, as an arcane spell school. It's before my time /hipster. Now, you got Evocation, which I believe is closest to the iconic DPS, spell-slinging robe-wearer. But an Evoker would be primarily Striker, so I suppose you could say that the Control Wizard uses lots of Evocation spells for his secondary role as Striker.

    But where is the controlling? Probably in the Enchantment, Illusionist, Transmutation schools. Honestly the Control Wizard is more like Controller|Striker rather than Controller/Striker.

    Pull out a Player Handbook (4e, I believe), and you can see how Wizards and Spell Schools work out in PnP.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    > Not my first post on this, But we all would like to know if your seriously takeing well thought out suggestions into account. Having a very hard time doing my daily/weekly grinds (17k+). Looking very hard to get out now, even today no one asks for a TR for anything, that should be your thermometer and the health of the TR, nerf us and let me be on my way.

    >

    > TR are one of the best dps in the game as of mod 14. For me as there is a problem with balancing PvP and PvE it will be nice to split them.

    > As there are loadouts mechanism implemented, just make PvP and PvE loadouts separately, then balance both without making compromise between PvP and PvE.

    >

    > They already have modifiers in certain powers/feats that make big changes in PVP. I don't know why they don't work on those a bit.

    >

    > I don't think Devs understand the class (well, the TR and the DC. For better or worse the HR and the CW are not changing much status quo). The GWF notes show that, at least this time, there is understanding of its gameplay, mechanics, and most importantly what is enjoyable about the class. So that they can carefully work around said theme or themes, handling the "enjoyable" aspects of the class very tenderly while roughing it up with other parts.

    >

    > CW base mechanics are changing. Since mod 12 CW went from Thaum to Opp and with mod 15 we are now going to the Renegade feat path. CW is the worst DPS in the game and nothing is changing come mode 15.

    >

    > A friend tested out the TR and the damage does drop from the mod 14 bugs and glitches that exist for TR. The cool down adjustments should not happen as it is impacting all TR builds. I hope the devs modify the cool downs a bit to make encounters come back faster for the TR as these minor changes will help quite a bit. There are a few other things but I rarely play TR but friends that have been testing it out said what they see in mod 15, hopefully the devs will come back and make further adjustments in mod 16 to improve the class further.

    >

    > What I like about the mod 15 changes is the devs seem to be making long term builds for TR, DC, etc... but as I stated in DC and CW threads, the lack of proper up front communication about the long term goal has really hurt mod 15 class balancing.



    The game is it beta mode anymore, it's too late for huge changes.



    Like any marriage you cant just change who you are to be something worse or the person you are with won't be happy.



    Like any relationship, what you do to attract someone is what you must maintain to keep them.



    That said changing all the core stuff that made our tr's work 5 years later is a great way to make us feel cheated on and find someone more loyal to us. Someone that will listen to us and hear us. Someone that understands who we are and what we want.



    We played this game because tr had the things we wanted.



    Dont ruin the relationship.



    So far all you said was," mmm.how about we move to venus" but we are still on earth. Move to venus (i.e. current mod 15 changes) and you can blast off without us.

    Since my CW has reached end game, every mod other than 14 I have had to make some pretty big changes to even make the character worth using in end game. So I don't feel for any other character at this point.

    Also you are thinking narrowly right now with the TR. DPS, DPS and DPS and OMG I'm top DPS in mod 14 devs please don't touch the TR.

    I'm sorry but even with the CW changes that I dislike, I agree things need to be adjusted and I still don't like them but I do see a long term vision there and hopefully they can make it happen to improve the CW. I see the same thing with the TR but you have to give it time.

    My gripe with mod 15 is the lack of communication and even what they did communicate it was after the fact and did not really mention that these changes are for the long term looking ahead into mod 16 or 17, etc...

    My thing is even with all of these changes I have a gut feeling down the road the devs may have to do a full revamp to the game, because even with all of these updates the game still has still has to many other issues.

    I agree with what you say in general, and I understand the long run. But these specific notes on this thread are too drastic. I would personally be okay with something more gradual and iterative. You can get a lot of long term feedback on that. These changes right here actually make people not want to play TR. Devs can't get feedback when no players are providing data and statistics to them. Especially considering that the chill, non-ridiculously-elitist-like-us, casual players will stay playing TR. Which then results in skewed, biased results, leading to patch notes that yet again do not understand the TR as played in a serious manner.

    The difference between the TR is not that the TR is changing mechanics. The difference is that the only competitive paragon and feat tree got nerfed. Now it is non-competitive. On one hand, it is true (and I am glad) that they have brought up the other two trees (Saboteur, Scoundrel). But the problem is that their "balancing" is looking like all 3 feat trees will be equally competitive as the "nerfed" Mod 15 MI executioner. And by equally competitive I mean equally non-competitive as according to the patch notes.

    See, you still have a choice. An alternative. You are limited in selection and creativity in mod15, yes, but you can at least switch to Renegade and be welcome to groups XD. TR doesn't have a competitive alternative, unfortunately, unless they buff Saboteur and/or Scoundrel to the point where they are stronger than the nerfed Exec. If Saboteur or Scoundrel end up party-invite viable, then I would have barely any problem with the TR.

    I actually have a Opp/Thaum and a Ren/Thaum right now. The only reason I'm non-Thaum is that I want to not just do DPS but hybrid it up with other tools. There are Thaum builds, it's just that a lot of "purists" (which most guide writers are) find that Thaum is too selfish for a party.

    And Forgotten Realms Wizards (and DnD in general) have many schools where DPS tends to be the minority. They are robe-wearers that draw on Mystra's Weave. There's Abjuration, aka deflection/protection spells. Conjurers, who conjure conjurable conjurees. I have no idea what the "Divine school" is, as an arcane spell school. It's before my time /hipster. Now, you got Evocation, which I believe is closest to the iconic DPS, spell-slinging robe-wearer. But an Evoker would be primarily Striker, so I suppose you could say that the Control Wizard uses lots of Evocation spells for his secondary role as Striker.

    But where is the controlling? Probably in the Enchantment, Illusionist, Transmutation schools. Honestly the Control Wizard is more like Controller|Striker rather than Controller/Striker.

    Pull out a Player Handbook (4e, I believe), and you can see how Wizards and Spell Schools work out in PnP.

    Why does everyone go back to 4e. Not longer after 5e one dev here stated that NWO will start to move towards using more of what is available in 5e and phaseout the 4e rule that is in the game that are no longer used by D&D.

    As for TR, this is simply the stepping stone to what is coming in mod 16. Mod 16 may bring about your 2nd role for qing into content and mod 17 may bring about balancing out your 2nd role and 18 will flush out any needed updates to the dps and the 2nd role that TR can play. That is my best guess as changes like the devs have plan take time and resources to implement.

    I pretty sure what we all see on test is what we will get come mod 15. I don't think there is enough time to implement further changes at this point.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Please disregard the question about AP gain. The test may have been in error.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    wow i just found ACT log of TR procing AoC 18 times in 1 sec, no wonder TR melted everything
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    Why does everyone go back to 4e. Not longer after 5e one dev here stated that NWO will start to move towards using more of what is available in 5e and phaseout the 4e rule that is in the game that are no longer used by D&D.

    (1) Because there is no 5e Neverwinter Campaign book, (2) the players aren't the ones who are naming the paragon paths and character classes after specific 4e subclasses, build options, paragon paths, etc, (3) You do realize that spell schools come all they way from AD&D, right? (4) Nobody cares about anything past 3.5E/Pathfinder, if they do they're playing another game and,

    (5e) still uses the same original eight schools of spells for Wizard specialties that have existed since the beginning of time (1989), with the addition of uhh 6 others. http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard#Arcane_Tradition

    And..

    Schools in 2nd Edition

    Abjuration
    Conjuration
    Divination
    Enchantment
    Evocation
    Illusion
    Necromancy
    Transmutation

    Wow, after 30 years they have phased out..... nothing. They did add a few. So more like... phasing... in.

    Kinda sad you don't even know your own class. Or game, for that matter.
    As for TR, this is simply the stepping stone to what is coming in mod 16. Mod 16 may bring about your 2nd role for qing into content and mod 17 may bring about balancing out your 2nd role and 18 will flush out any needed updates to the dps and the 2nd role that TR can play. That is my best guess as changes like the devs have plan take time and resources to implement.
    Do they pay you to advertise? Because all you're doing is guaranteeing something that is not guarantee-able. The only thing ever guaranteed is a game release date of "soon." So either you're trying to placate with the rhetoric of the modern politician, or you've developed Cryptic into some sort of cult of personality, that they can do no wrong.

    That's stupid. Even I'm not predicting things will go worse or better. Given that Mod15 isn't live yet, there's always the odd possibility of rethinking things within the next month.

    That's why we're providing feedback instead of holding hands, full of hope.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @doublerainbow#8002 said:
    > The lack of communication from the devs has been dissapointing. Why even have a forum like this is an open discussion? There is 16 pages of mostly negative feedback with 1 post from the dev team. That's not good customer service.
    >
    > If I moved changes into prod with the vast majority of the feedback being negative I would lose my job.

    We have a forum so we can post our best builds and tactics and get nerfed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • lobo21877lobo21877 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    so it seems they are trying to push the tr out of the game if you ask me
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Give to any class 500k power and let tr alone since 500k power is normal in tr book. OR is more than 500k power?;
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    Give to any class 500k power and let tr alone since 500k power is normal in tr book. OR is more than 500k power?;

    No no, lets give TR an AoE at will, and double the attack speed while in stealth, without stealth depletion. + Highest self buffs in the game, because that is the base line in Mamalion book?
    Oh and Lashing blade... 3 targets and half the CD please..
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    lobo21877 said:

    so it seems they are trying to push the tr out of the game if you ask me

    Yeah. Unless they realize that (unfortunately) a single competitive build is more important than intra-class balance (not inter-party balance). For all intents and purposes I see Exec nerfed to a degree, and THEN they balance by giving the other trees some love, each feat tree on par...

    Except, it's not love. Because all that is going on means there isn't an alternative anymore. And honestly, not every TR wants to play MI Exec. We're unconsciously forced to, for parties tend to choose the better option.

    I completely do understand the frustration of nerf/buff rearrangement of the CW. In mod14 the TR were able to be competitive, but very limited in build in order to be competitive. And invited.

    The difference between the mod15 changes for CW and those for TR is that (it seems like) the TR don't have a replacement of that build. Granted, not sure what you're talking about, because Thaum, Opp, and Rene have been build options forever. All you're saying is that Thaum is an issue. That's nice, but Wizards are only damage focused depending on how the specialize through all the schools, and also must choose spells to memorize per day, with the ability to choose the same spell in multiple spellbook "slots" so you can cast it multiple times.

    If you ever played Neverwinter Nights 1/2 and its expansions and member-created modules (or Icewind Dale 2.. or Temple of Elemental Evil), you'd see that is how you build a wizard in 3e. Same for playing the 2nd edition AD&D games: Baldur's Gate 1/Talesoftheswordcoast expansion/2/ToB expansion, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale 1...

    The funny thing is that Baldur's Gate 1 is close but not that close to the first DnD games. The first ones were actually from 1988, the "Gold Box" games, which started with Pool of Radiance. (And I hope you realize that is Forgotten Realms). Another Gold Box Engine game was from 1990, was AD&D aka 2e "Champions of Krynn" (And I hope you realize that is Dragonlance). Actually it was a trilogy.. "Death Knights of Krynn" and "The Dark Queen of Krynn."

    As of now, the Control Wizard plays MUCH more like the pen and paper Sorcerer. Sorcerers (well, at least from what I remember in 3e), don't have to prepare a spellbook. Yet Sorcerers have to permanently choose which spells they learn, whereas a Wizard can draw from anything they've managed to learn and scribble in their spellbook during a PnP session.

    What I see when analyzing CW mechanics, skillsets, etc. Is that the "Spell Mastery" slot is somewhat similar in specializing in a spell that represents a spell school, somewhat.

    But since the class is named the "Control Wizard," its design AND name derives from one of two "generalist"* 4e build option. See http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard#Wizard_generalist_traditions:

    Wizard generalist traditions

    Some wizards, occassionally known as generalists, are less inclined to specialize in the various schools of magic... These wizards tend to fall into a number of sub-categories, which are listed below.

    Control wizard

    Favoring battle from as great of a distance as reasonable, control wizards prefer spells that hinder or restrict their enemies rather than those that are particularly deadly... Many of the spells used by control wizards are from the conjuration or enchantment schools, though not all.[15]

    War wizard

    War wizards, not to be confused with the well known War Wizards of Cormyr, are those non-specialized wizards who prefer power to delicacy. War wizards prefer to use spells that deal damage in large amounts. Many of their spells hail from the evocation school, though others are from the conjuration or transmutation schools...[15]


    ¿Comprende? "War wizards" bias towards Evocation (see "Thayan Evokers"). "Control Wizards" bias towards CC, usually from Conjuration and Enchantment, while as they are generalists they can pick and choose Control-oriented spells from any school.

    In fact, you should be happy that you even have a damage dealing tree. Because what a Control Wizard built PnP decides to do a secondary, it may be Evocation but it could also be: Abjuration, Divination, Necromancy, Illusion, or Transmutation.


    And before you retort that this is fake or some HAMSTER, if you look at the citations you'll see that [15] is from the 4e Player Handbook. Oddly from the main Player Handbook, and not from a Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. *shrug*

    Anyways, Cryptic was kinda smart here. They intended to have the Control Wizard be primarily a CC class, with their "secondary" being a DPSer. Sadly (or happily, depending on the person), CC isn't that useful, and Cryptic gave Control Wizards more DeePS to balance that out.

    Because if they were faithful, Control Wizards would be almost all focused on "the conjuration or enchantment schools," with the minority "though not all." Instead of focusing on two specific schools, the NWO (and 4e) is a lot more lax about that. The "Control Wizard" here actually takes most of its control spells from the evocation (elementalist spells). That's why the CW's spells don't ONLY do DPS, there's control and debuffs involved as well as buffing since controlling really isn't a thing endgame. It's also why the NWO Control Wizard controls through evocation spells. Because elementalist spells, on paper, lets you both control via the elements and attack via the elements. So by making the Control Wizard use Evocation as his source of Control, you've also given him secondary striking capability via throwing in some of the Evoker's straight damage spells.

    ANYWAYS, if 5e phases that out, that's not about phasing out 4e, it's about phasing out a specific mechanic that is 30 years tradition. They'd be phasing out something not just significant, but enjoyable and interesting (how to build a Wizard is AD&D-3e-3.5e-4e, etc.).
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