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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    Before the Devs. decide they have not yet scaled back the DC enough in this game I would like to talk about a more direct approach.{ Power sharing and buffs.} As we can see every class in the game is asking for more buffs. And it is also very easy to see why. Buffs are far more effective than debuffs. I would like to see the Devs. change the way buffs work and put them more in line with the debuffs. As well as adding diminished returns to power share. Neither of these two thing will be popular with the 4 buffer one DPS teams set ups running today but they are going to be needed if this game is wanting to have fewer buffers and more DPS players on a team. Ideas? This is the best typing job I can do on a phone so sorry about that.
  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    Team comp is a personal decision. Generally speaking, those set ups aren't necessary to successfully complete a dungeon.

    I'm not disagreeing with you about there needing to be some type of limit (just for game management sake) but what's your plan for the buffers. There's a customer behind everyone of those and the reverse isn't true if you hard cap them.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I still think it's uncalled for to lower performance of DO in single DC runs. You can run chains on mobs or DL if your aiming is godly but other then that the personal DPS increase won't do anything to those runs.
    vorphied said:

    gatorusmc said:

    vorphied said:

    I spent some more time with the Divinity changes on Preview as DO, just in case I had missed something.

    I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.


    That's almost always the case going from multiplicative to additive. I was surprised more people didn't question that.


    Did you get a chance to test out the dps? Not only am I curious what type of personal change you see but how you fair in a decent group. I think most people (sans fanbois) have tempered their exceptions of any meaningful dps increase. I'm guessing insignificant multiplied by this small buff will still be insignificant and that's without any divinity change.
    I finally got around to updating ACT, but I haven't had the opportunity to try anything organized on Preview yet. My usual informal test without a group is to solo CN up to Orcus since it's an easy and familiar dungeon full of walking target dummies, and I know what my clear time should be on live for each my characters, but the first area in the dungeon proper is bugged on Preview so that the encounter doesn't progress once the undead are cleared.

    I may have to wait until everything hits live to get a real feel for how the DPS tweaks to DO work in a real, buffed party, but maybe one of the folks around here who form groups on Preview and (hopefully) run a DPS-focused DO build can give us an idea.

    Yeah same but in the end it's only like 15% buff within the first 25 seconds in combat over Mod 14. For most DOs who are not geared for DPS that's basically nothing. It definitely is nothing if your running DG, PoD and BtS as solo DC or for whatever other reason. Probably only 2 players on the entire server think of that buff to personal DPS as 3 Swarms for free.

    As someone who plays a near bis DO and AC (and strongly favours DO) I think these changes were necessary for the health of the game, even if they are not nice to deal with. The only 2 things I would explicitly change is the BtS buff going to FF, since BtS is already very strong and the change to divinity generation.

    The FF nerf alone would have ensured that much less teams go for a DO specifically, if that is one of the things the devs have identified as a problem.

  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    hawkeyel said:

    Before the Devs. decide they have not yet scaled back the DC enough in this game I would like to talk about a more direct approach.{ Power sharing and buffs.} As we can see every class in the game is asking for more buffs. And it is also very easy to see why. Buffs are far more effective than debuffs. I would like to see the Devs. change the way buffs work and put them more in line with the debuffs. As well as adding diminished returns to power share. Neither of these two thing will be popular with the 4 buffer one DPS teams set ups running today but they are going to be needed if this game is wanting to have fewer buffers and more DPS players on a team. Ideas? This is the best typing job I can do on a phone so sorry about that.

    Just to make this even more clear to all .I shall give a quote from theFabricant on another topic that explains the difference between a buff and debuff in this game. Debuffs are additive and subject to diminishing returns,buffs are multiplicative and have no diminishing returns. End quote. I also agree with getorusme that I would only like to see something done for game management sake. I do however differ on a hard cap to a point. When they removed the hard cap from lifesteal they removed the very core of what a healer is from this game. Today people seldom look for someone to heal them they mostly just look for someone to buff them so they can just heal them self. So I am very much aware as to how one small change can completely kill off a play style.I shall leave it up to the numbers people as to how they think we can manage the power sharing and buffs in this game without killing it all together. I am more of the captain obvious and point toward the primary problems with the hopes they do not toss the baby out with the bath water.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    I still think it's uncalled for to lower performance of DO in single DC runs. You can run chains on mobs or DL if your aiming is godly but other then that the personal DPS increase won't do anything to those runs.


    vorphied said:

    gatorusmc said:

    vorphied said:

    I spent some more time with the Divinity changes on Preview as DO, just in case I had missed something.

    I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.


    That's almost always the case going from multiplicative to additive. I was surprised more people didn't question that.


    Did you get a chance to test out the dps? Not only am I curious what type of personal change you see but how you fair in a decent group. I think most people (sans fanbois) have tempered their exceptions of any meaningful dps increase. I'm guessing insignificant multiplied by this small buff will still be insignificant and that's without any divinity change.
    I finally got around to updating ACT, but I haven't had the opportunity to try anything organized on Preview yet. My usual informal test without a group is to solo CN up to Orcus since it's an easy and familiar dungeon full of walking target dummies, and I know what my clear time should be on live for each my characters, but the first area in the dungeon proper is bugged on Preview so that the encounter doesn't progress once the undead are cleared.

    I may have to wait until everything hits live to get a real feel for how the DPS tweaks to DO work in a real, buffed party, but maybe one of the folks around here who form groups on Preview and (hopefully) run a DPS-focused DO build can give us an idea.

    Yeah same but in the end it's only like 15% buff within the first 25 seconds in combat over Mod 14. For most DOs who are not geared for DPS that's basically nothing. It definitely is nothing if your running DG, PoD and BtS as solo DC or for whatever other reason. Probably only 2 players on the entire server think of that buff to personal DPS as 3 Swarms for free.

    As someone who plays a near bis DO and AC (and strongly favours DO) I think these changes were necessary for the health of the game, even if they are not nice to deal with. The only 2 things I would explicitly change is the BtS buff going to FF, since BtS is already very strong and the change to divinity generation.

    The FF nerf alone would have ensured that much less teams go for a DO specifically, if that is one of the things the devs have identified as a problem.

    First, a DO should be geared for dps.
    ->A player that runs exclusively DO-DC in mod 14 without having a dps setup, should ask himself, what he is doing better than a 11k DO in any group, except having 18k IL ?
    ->eFF-eExalt-exploit was maybe another point/focus for changes, it was known since ever.
    ->PoD should be the go for, but noone seems to have any interest in fixing that encounter to do better than it does actually, eating ot´s own dps same as still having a horrible castingtime/animation.
    ->Some mentioned BtS should have been the better choice for the nerf, but BtS is the lower dps since FF stacks, right?

    Mod 15 means: your DO-DC deals at least 25% more dps vs any other class, since it is a personal dps buff on top of that 10% dps towards groupmember, how can you only reach a 15% buff then?
    Rightous-Capstone is 50% vs 40%, the uptime is even more constant like 50/60 sec vs 25/60 sec-> good for casual/average runs, bad for "Bossburns"
    All in all you deal about 50%+dps compared to any other striker in mod 14.
    ->Target for all classes is to downgrade buffs (few exceptions) and upgrade dps, wich is a good direction in general.

    ->As said before and mentioned allready by devs, there needed to be a change from "double-stacking-buffs from one class" to "give that class other options, like dps", otherwise there is no sense in having different paragons and trees.
    Rightous is set in stone 110%, nothing else is from interest in PVE.
    Classes like GWF and TR got similar situation, one role - dps - nothing else.
    You can run a GWF-tank and a GWF-dps in one group but it´s pretty pointless.

    If you want to get that DO-paragon into a better role and give Itemlevel any meaning, the only way to go is dps imo, since healing is a dead end, due to buffs...
    Mod 15 initiated that process by buffing DO's personal dps.
    You can't expect to be on par with a GWF, noone actually will be in mod 15, since DO also applies huge buffs and debuffs
    -> 35%+dps, 20% debuff PoD, 25% debuff rightous, WoL powerbuff.
    But you can measure your focus dps on a dummy, to get a clue about what a DO can deal on single targets, and my DO dealt pretty nice dps in a lowie setup slotting a trans Dread on preview.
    ->I am missing data from any dps focussed DC, a lot claimed to be dps focussed in the past, but maybe those are afraid of posting damage numbers? Or did actually noone test anything til now? How could this be a discussion then?

    Agreed, all changes lead to the "problem", that AC will be 100% set and DO is an option but not set in stone.
    ->Again, no class can expect to be 100% in demand on 2 paragon/trees or roles and by that spoil the experience for 70% of the remainig classes.
    ->And maybe there will be a downgrade in buffs (deminished), same as Powershare will be adressed 100%. Doing so, might open a window in former mods for dps-DO. You will do good to have your DO in a dps setup then, otherwise you will come back into forum and cry to be useless, and if you don´t want to run as dps go for powerbuffer in between.



    Devs in this game implemented "Monster-Buffs", I never saw in any other game. They made those buffs multiply with each other.
    Now they try to fix stuff, but have to spend mod after mod to balance classes, not having the menpower to do so.
    If buffs were additive or deminished to some degree, to prevent classes to stack them, and if dps was the only measure to balance classes, a lot of things would be easier in NWO.
    Those buff killed two roles in this game, healer and striker to some degree. Healer are simply from no importance since you can stack mitiagtion (or have to do so) and the healing done same as lifesteal (buffed by Monsterbuffs) is far enough to cover most content.
    Striker are from minor interest because buffs are that strong , that you only need one instead of 3 or 4... a pretty dumb situation, due to buffs imo, since all that counts is "buff-buff-buff-buff-maybe dps (can also be replaced by a buff..)"

    Honestly I am fed up with this, allergic somehow :"TONG REQ = LF OP DEVO/ AC/ GF TACT / DO EXP REQ"
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User



    Mod 15 means: your DO-DC deals at least 25% more dps vs any other class, since it is a personal dps buff on top of that 10% dps towards groupmember, how can you only reach a 15% buff then?

    No necessarily. OP got an across the board 14% damage increase. I only really follow AC and OP so I don't know where the other classes are.

    This also doesn't take into account the nerf to divinity generation.
  • mightyerikssonmightyeriksson Member Posts: 842 Arc User
    So, this is not really about the imminent eradication of the Divine Oracle, but rather the lack of interesting companions for DC's or pure support characters in general.

    For DPS classes there are plenty of good companions, with +% damage here and there, Critical severity and whatnot, but support are very limited to a few companions, besides the ones that just gives you a few hundred stats.

    I would love to see more companions that gives a bonus to the entire party instead of just me.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    So, this is not really about the imminent eradication of the Divine Oracle, but rather the lack of interesting companions for DC's or pure support characters in general.

    For DPS classes there are plenty of good companions, with +% damage here and there, Critical severity and whatnot, but support are very limited to a few companions, besides the ones that just gives you a few hundred stats.

    I would love to see more companions that gives a bonus to the entire party instead of just me.

    To feed powercreep once more?
    This game allready got many issues with powercreep for ages. Giving companions even more powerfull partywide buffs will not help to solve those problems. The buffs companions spend are allready too much for my taste.
    Mod 15 will implement augments with 1500 powerstat, wich will feed AC and OP powershare, but those ones are nothing compared to others.

    The Core problem are buffs as I said, roles like:
    1. Healer
    2. Controler
    3. striker to some degree
    were killed by buffs and power creep and the content that got adepted towards those buffs. Longterm player should know this since, many left allready.

    If healing would be from any interest and buffs/powercreep was not an issue that much... someday, there were options same as totally overpowered groupbuffs from active companions.

    If you want to change things ask for those debuffing comps to not STACK and downsize powercreep by that:
    Tiger , Sellsword, Conartist and more +10% debuffer ->a stacking debuff and by that a partywide buff, every half decent buffer runs those companions allready.

    Watch those :
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Acolyte_of_Kelemvor group shielding+ healing
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Cantankerous_Mage Combat advantage+mass-cc, there are others like manticore or
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Paranoid_Delusion powerfull cc effects from some classes
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Dancing_Shield still BIS but annoying 20% debuff
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Rust_Monster a stacking debuff for the hole group
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Stalwart_Golden_Lion not sure about theat lion, how good it is in the end

    If this game was about cc and classes like CW could be from interest, since -> more cc effect = more control
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Will-O'-Wisp
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Cantankerous_Mage

    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Priestess_of_Sehanine_Moonbow
    ->a partywide +20% Critbuff and debuff 40% Critchance to enemies within 20' for 9 seconds -> broken, isn´t it?

    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Dedicated_Squire
    not powerfull?->The squire heals and cleanses all allies in melee range, removing any CC effects and healing up to 15% of targets health over 6 seconds
    Smash a target, igniting them with holy fire for 4 seconds. They burn so hot that enemies within 15' of them are also damaged by this effect. Foes who are affected by the burn deal 15% less damage for 3 seconds. Allies near the target are healed as well.

    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Harper_Bard
    The Bard plays a soothing refrain that empowers allies. Allies who are above 50% Health have their Power and Critical Strike increased. Allies who are below 50% Health have their Defense and Deflect increased. The potency of this buff scales with the Bard's level.
    A soothing song Increases owner's Maximum hit points by 10%.

    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chicken damage debuf to boss,
    https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Cockatrice root
    CC effects and damage debuffs on bosses, allready used by GF´s and other builds


    Archon´s family , Siegemaster, Groot, Tiger , all those are set in stone due to the fact that you need something like >25k personal powerbuff in a buffer group and 10-12k power outside that buffer group (solo) to beat that 25% (+2,5%) CA/CS bonus.
    No Companion will ever spend a 10-25k personal powerbuff, right?
    You may ask for a nerf, to equalize companions, but that nerf will downsize Groot to maybe a 2,5%critseverity/2,5%CA-Bonus, and archons down to 1% (+0.2%per archon) extradamage, only to make other companions to be from any interest for a striker.
    I am in for equalizing companions for the sake of all those other to reach some kind of build diversity, same as I am in to flat out/downsize buffs classes spend, to make this game more variable beside omnipresent meta-runs (things went better in mod 14 agreed).

    Sure there will be some "loller" again (look above, and down), those who can´t understand even the smallest interrelations between little things. That´s the same category of player asking for buffs (or crying for "not to be nerfed on their class"), later crying about bosses dying in 2 seconds and content being trivial and dps focussed, same as they never give any input from relevance to any threat :)
    Again there are roles to be revived like a classical healer or a Controler , if all is centered arround buffs/dps, nothing will change at all, same as no companion that does not feed powercreep will be from interest.
    Anyway , if you want to have a companion that spends a powerfull buff to the group, take those 10% debuffer they are allready there ready to be slotted.
    Take it but don´t ask for more powerfull buffs on top please. You ask for a dps multiplier x 1,36, if you want groupbuffs that are from compareable power.
    It´s exactly the wrong direction, beside devs desperately try to tone buffs down actually.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • illhoraillhora Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited October 2018


    ->I am missing data from any dps focussed DC, a lot claimed to be dps focussed in the past, but maybe those are afraid of posting damage numbers? Or did actually noone test anything til now? How could this be a discussion then?


    just tested DO DPS setup on preview

    -- >5,5M dmg on puppet with eDL (with complete buff/debuff rotation)

    100% crit
    106& Crit Sev
    100% Arp
    84K pwr

    Without guild boons and havent all Bis item for DPS

    Can provide more details if you want.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    illhora said:


    just tested DO DPS setup on preview

    -- >5,5M dmg on puppet with eDL (with complete buff/debuff rotation)

    100% crit
    106& Crit Sev
    100% Arp
    84K pwr

    Without guild boons and havent all Bis item for DPS

    Can provide more details if you want.

    5.5 mio sounds not that bad , looking at other classes and their high damage encounter/Capstone (SoD-TR), but the question is what will be the consistent overall-dps, dealing focus damage ? Like HG+dDL, eDL, dDG, DG + PoD.
    A dps focussed DO as 2. rate buffer will outdamage a templock, Templock has a fix rotation with low-dps encounter genarally.
    If DO-DC should be a dps then he has to compete with others, maybe the class is allready capable to do so.
    I only got that one Striker,near maxed stats->warlock.
    He can deal about 300k dps on a "bossdummy" on Preview in Chult as Soulbinder-Fury, with a selfish low to no-buff-setup.
    As Hellbringer he is a bit lower, but Dummies tend to bug a lot so hard to measure corretly.
    Not many will go that far with their DC to buy all that dps stuff, so expensive to build a full striker, but in case they do it should be rewarded.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • wintermurlocwintermurloc Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Well the thing is 5 mil daunting lights hits are something we can do right now on the live server. But well ok, ive had enough with all this dps talks and i'm not remotely interested in any conversation going in this way. All these changes are not going to kill a competent DO , they will always find ways to get through. I'm merely not at all enthusiastic with the direction they have taken towards this paragon. We'll see what happens next mod with the upcoming changes , then the real talk begins
  • songhisonghi Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Welp... En pace' requescat Divine Oracle... Guess it's time for me to start the drudgery of turning mine into Anointed Champion. Been playing a DO for many a year now, you've finally driven the stake into her heart. Now she's completely useless.

    Seriously, what the everloving f*** are you devs thinking?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Mod 15 will show where a DO-DC actually stands, but I am pretty sure the class is far from useless, same as those who focussed on DO with a dps-setup are far from low dps.
    In an average setup that AC can´t hold up AA and HG perfectly, near impossible, since that powerbuff drops significant doings so, same as he can´t keep up BtS-buff constantly doing both dailies, a very stressfull task to even try.
    DO+AC still will be a good synergy, but DO should build for dps like other 2. rate buffer allready do.
    Honestly, I can´t even understand how to run 2-3 years with one single build and deny to test other feature and paragons, after a short period I pretty much get bored.
    I run:
    Swordmaster-Tact/buff-tank, a IV-conqueror/tank-hybrid, a Swordmaster-Conqueror / dps
    A DO/DC rightous, AC/DC rightous, DO same as AC/faithfull in PVP
    A Hellbringer templock, a Soulbinder fury/dps, a Hellbringer fury/dps, a Hellbriger Fury/tank in PVP, a Soulbinder templock/speedbuild in PVP
    Run a destroyer SM GWF in former mods - that class only got one build working .... ok PVP ICY´s IV-speeddeamon was also nice those days.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User

    First, a DO should be geared for dps.
    ->A player that runs exclusively DO-DC in mod 14 without having a dps setup, should ask himself, what he is doing better than a 11k DO in any group, except having 18k IL ?
    ->eFF-eExalt-exploit was maybe another point/focus for changes, it was known since ever.
    ->PoD should be the go for, but noone seems to have any interest in fixing that encounter to do better than it does actually, eating ot´s own dps same as still having a horrible castingtime/animation.
    ->Some mentioned BtS should have been the better choice for the nerf, but BtS is the lower dps since FF stacks, right

    Aye, at least since WoL doesn't stack anymore it doesn't make a lot of sense to gear as pure buff DO for runs in which an AC is present.

    If you were running non-meta group with a DO DC the nerf to buff and increase of personal DPS makes a lot less sense. Basically nerfing non-2DC groups, which also contradicts what's stated in the OP. "but aerhy you're supposed to be AC in single DC runs!?" yeah you're also supposed~ to always have an OP, GF, Templock, /godmode on. That's my issue with these changes.

    DO as DPS buffer hybrid yeah... I think the main issue in balancing is how they retroactively create DPS buffer hybrids. PoD has its problems. Templocks are great buffers but mechanically Fury already works as hybrid due to Pillar, the curse could have been made a class feature (maybe half as effective as currently on Temp) and then Templock and Puppet buffed. DT work like PoD 2 seconds cast, 8 seconds debuff. CW doesn't even have a proper hybrid build, Opp (Mod 14) and Renegade (Mod 15) is basically best for buffing _and_ DPS. This makes balancing a lot harder, on the other hand I think it's the right way to change things. TR has no buff build to fall back to if for some reason you end up in a group being 2nd or 3rd DPS.

    Honestly 15 or 30% personal buff doesn't make a lot of difference as long as main DPS does 3 billion damage. Pop Soul Sight Crystal during Arcolith if you don't have bane, exaltation, other self-buffs or SoD... barely makes a dent.
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    Who is taking over the DC changes now? Our dodge has been stuttery since mod14 launched, and the Brand of the Sun change will just hinder us if it goes on live. Having to press tab to go back to our regular encounters is a no-issue and part of the class, and making Brand of the Sun stop giving divinity after switching mode doesn't help... on the contrary.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    Agreed: @nitocris83 , since @balanced#2849 is gone, who is following up on this feedback thread? We've got weeks left before launch, any chance our feedback gets addressed? I get that the new guy probably isn't going to want to do major reversions of things like "DO is no longer a valid DC build", but at least things like "absolutely everyone here thinks Brand Of The Sun should keep giving Divinity if you switch to Divine Mode" could maybe get an official response"?
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    It's good the devs adjusted changes to Terrifying Insight, but hopefully they keep in mind there may still be a plethora or DOs switching to AC. We may be fighting and clawing at each other to get the coveted AC spot in runs. Not to mention the price for bis AC gear in the auction house will skyrocket.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Noone needs Bis in this game. Companions +4 or 5, a Dread, some radiants and some silveries. Insignia went up in price... just wait they will drop again 110%
    Some think of earning easy money.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited October 2018



    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    @noworries#8859 , may I ask why we as the first class to get responses from devs 2 weeks ago havent have our class balance updated in preview? All the other classes that get their replies from devs a week later than us already have their class balance updated in preview server. I just logged in preview, wanting to test about new TI while assuming our new TI was already updated but not included in patch notes but unfortunately it is not. May i ask are we clerics are forgotten by devs? Moderators please forward to devs, I think they really forgot about DC, and whats devs opinion on reverting BotS divinity gain changes?
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @jazzfong said:
    > Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
    >
    >
    > @noworries#8859 , may I ask why we as the first class to get responses from devs 2 weeks ago havent have our class balance updated in preview? All the other classes that get their replies from devs a week later than us already have their class balance updated in preview server. I just logged in preview, wanting to test about new TI while assuming our new TI was already updated but not included in patch notes but unfortunately it is not. May i ask are we clerics are forgotten by devs? Moderators please forward to devs, I think they really forgot about DC, and whats devs opinion on reverting BotS divinity gain changes?


    DC and SW both still waiting in the bread line for crumbs from the devs.

    I imagine that the dev team shake-up created some delays even though it was anticipated, but these two feedback threads could really benefit from some further attention. Updates on Preview would be a nice bonus.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    I agree the changes to divinity generation should be reverted. It's clunkier then before. If there were genuine complaints from new players about it, then yeah, it does take a few days or weeks to get used to a perfect rotation with "passive" divinity gain in Divine mode. But so does playing any class in Neverwinter.

    Update on preview I think it's understandable devs have their priorities now that one of the devs responsible for these changes left. Suboptimal that it can't be tested yet of course. I'd still change TI to something like 15% group buff / 25% personal buff simply due to the fact teams run with one sole DC as DO and those teams literally did nothing to deserve a nerf to buff which is already lower then other party compositions. 2 DC runs will be less and less due to the changes to FF as well as other classes embracing DPS buff builds and hopefully receiving some improvements to utility and damage mitigation.
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    "Terrifying Insight: Seeing the inevitable destruction of your foes, you deal 10/15/20/25% more damage. Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds" --> I would prefer you reverse it to an increase of allies' damage by 10% instead of a damage resistance debuff, it would be a better compromise because POD is also nerfed.

    The other changes are ok. Overall, the changes are just going to upset speed-runners. The dungeons will still be completed.

    I am sure that DOs will still be requested despite the 'nerf", given that most of the ACs can cover the double daily, and given that DOs still have a weaker version of POD and have a quicker rotation in general.

    It will just give more opportunities to other buff-able classes.

    Now, you can put your thumbs down :D


  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    "Terrifying Insight: Seeing the inevitable destruction of your foes, you deal 10/15/20/25% more damage. Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds" --> I would prefer you reverse it to an increase of allies' damage by 10% instead of a damage resistance debuff, it would be a better compromise because POD is also nerfed.

    The other changes are ok. Overall, the changes are just going to upset speed-runners. The dungeons will still be completed.

    I am sure that DOs will still be requested despite the 'nerf", given that most of the ACs can cover the double daily, and given that DOs still have a weaker version of POD and have a quicker rotation in general.

    It will just give more opportunities to other buff-able classes.

    Now, you can put your thumbs down :D


    As far as I understood TI will buff for 25% (self) and buff group for 10% in mod 15, allready mentioned in this thread, the debuff should be a buff when mod 15 hits.

    Actually comparison of a DO-DC and a Templock:

    lordtweety#3604 said: And if that is what you want your toon to be, make a Paladin or Cleric.
    @bellkazi : "That is the problem.I have DC. I don't need support SW.
    Hallowed Ground(35%), Break the Spirit (21%), Divine Glow (12.5%) , Terrifying Insight (10% in M15) VS Pillar of Power (18%) and Soul Bonding (20%).
    Mulitplier 2.02>1.42
    Powerbuffs: Weapons of Light >> Dark Revelry
    Bear Your Sins(10%)+Condemning Gaze(15%)+Divine Glow(17.5%)+Prophecy of Doom(12.5%) VS Dreadtheft(25%)+Pillar of Power(10%)+Aura of Despair(5%)
    debuffs 55% > 15-40%
    Damage Temptation=Damage DO in M14
    Damage Temptation < Damage DO in M15 "


    If you add an AC DC it´s:
    buffs: DO 1.485 > temp 1.42
    debuff: 20% < 15% - 40% (when DR up)
    powerbuff WoL (since not stacking) < Dark revelry (+20% basepower)

    DO is flexible by running PoD+DL+xy (dps/heal/mitigation) and should deal definitely more dps than a templock.
    PoD deletes it´s own proc getting reapplied somehow, that should be addressed.
    DO is better than all 2. rate buffer in terms of buffs, better than a tact GF in debuffs.
    He can go support on top, if he consequently denies to go dps -> AP gain and encounter reset (GoH+hastening light).
    The gap between 2. rate buffer is closer. Every DC can decide to run meta-powerbuffer setup on top.

    .... I'd still change TI to something like 15% group buff / 25% personal buff simply due to the fact teams run with one sole DC as DO and those teams literally did nothing to deserve a nerf to buff which is already lower then other party compositions. 2 DC runs will be less and less due to the changes to FF as well as other classes embracing DPS buff builds and hopefully receiving some improvements to utility and damage mitigation.


    Wich party compositions do you talk of?

    1. leader, 1. tank , 3 dps setup:
    Devo OP + protOP <<<< DO-DC + prot OP (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%) powerbuffs DO > devoOP (bypassed by prot)
    Devo-OP + tact GF << DO-DC + tact GF (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%), powerbuffs -OP >DO

    Other compositions like:
    AC-DC + prot OP > DO-DC + prot OP (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + Tact GF > DO-DC + Tact GF (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + prot OP >>>> DevoOP + prot OP
    AC-DC + tact GF >> DevoOP+Tact GF

    Now we talk about meta runs (hdps GF's excludet):
    GF(tact) + OP (devo) + AC/DC + hdps + 2. rate buffer
    *2. rate buffer in general are: CW-mof, GF(tact), Hunter, templock, DO-DC (in double DC setup)

    DO x 1.485, debuffs 20%
    GF x 1.35, debuffs 18%
    CW x 1.3 (uptime?), debuffs 70% ?
    Hunter x 1.4, debuffs 35%
    templock x 1.42, debuffs 15-40% - averaged 27,5%

    DO-DC has best buffs, mediocre debuffs, and dps will be better than Hunter, templock, tact GF and rene mof in mod 15 as 2.rate buffer, any questions?
    Your proposals widen a gap again, that needs to be closed !
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    Yeah, but those are basically issues with other classes and not the DC. Buff Hunter (in Mod 15) sacrifices everything to be as good as buffer as possible. Templock loses so much damage by not being Fury and also channeling Dreadtheft half of the time. CW doesn't have a dedicated buff path and debuffs are heavily dimished in buff groups. Due to the changes to DO as well as some other classes like TR group damage is basically lowered, so from my point of view it makes a lot more sense to first look into changes to the tanks (DPS GF gains are so much higher then the additional group buffs from Tact, unless you need tons of AP) as well as more and better options for other classes to play as DPS buffer hybrid (example Fury SW and Combat HR already buff and mechanically work at least as good as their dedicated buff builds, if not better). Considering what was originally planned for Mod 16, maybe I'm overthinking things but due to the way things are right now I wouldn't even plan specifically with upcoming changes in mind in 1 or 2 years if I were dev (in my opinion being able to queue as, say, DPS as GF in random and public queues is too ambitious of a change for this game as it is currently), if it's possible to do the right changes in due time.

    CW Renegade is gonna buff 20% in Mod 15, don't know about uptime, currently on live it often doesn't proc within 20 or 30 seconds so even with >50% uptime on average it's always gonna be suboptimal, and considerering Oppressor still got 10% buff it doesn't make much sense for a dedicated buff build since you can't really coordinate Chaotic Fury procs with self-buffs like the one from the Soul Crystal Crystal. But then Oppressor currently doesn't offer anything else (except taking both the chill and frozen targets take more damage feats which I guess can be situational useful here and there)

    1. leader, 1. tank , 3 dps setup:
    Devo OP + protOP <<<< DO-DC + prot OP (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%) powerbuffs DO > devoOP (bypassed by prot)
    Devo-OP + tact GF << DO-DC + tact GF (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%), powerbuffs -OP >DO

    Damage increasing buffs maybe but DO provides no damage mitigation past the DR cap (Power of the Sun (-5% damage taken) and Divine Intervention (~1k temp HP random chance) are too low to really count)

    Your proposals widen a gap again, that needs to be closed !

    Compared to what's on live currenly it would still be a huge nerf and means you can't always add any random DO to any party and expect a faster run.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    Compared to what's on live currenly it would still be a huge nerf and means you can't always add any random DO to any party and expect a faster run.

    From my PoV, actual changes will close the gap and make double DC less tempting, even though it is a still a viable setup, better to other combinations like "buffhunter", Mof or Tact GF.
    And if I am not completely wrong DO-DC gains a big ammount of dps, by that capable to fit in the role of a dps/buff, compareable to other classes. I think DO get´s more flexibility beside being a "buff-slave" exclusivley, in case you do invest into dps setup.
    The loss of being same effective like an AC/DC in a "single DC setup", actually we talk about the loss of a 10% buff and a win of 50% dps, is a small sidenote in an allready "worn-out double-DC-meta" since years now.

    The point is, there are near no real dps-DO´s on PC. The ammount is very, very small (compareable to maybe .. Damnationlocks) to judge at all about the performance, since all the class actually is ment to do is buff>>dps in general.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    BtS is single target and won't help in FBI, MSPC or during Strahd for instance. DG yeah, I forgot about that, good point. Also Warding Flare, it's just not good enough to slot it.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    @aerhythia#3255
    I did not even mention mitigation tools of a DC, to keep the discussion focussed on buffs.
    If you add those tools to the utility a DO allready got, the class is miles above other 2. rate buffer, especially in times of "one-hitting mobs/bosses" etc.

    DO-DC -> Daily-Encounter-Classfeature:
    Mitigtion: Daily: HG 35%, Encounter: Devine Glow 17,5%, Astral Shield 40% , Forgemaster 15% (mod15)
    Damagereduction: Foresight -13%, BotS -5%, BtS -40%, DG -12,5% = - 67,5% incoming damage
    Temp-HP: Daily: Devine Armor +80% tempHP
    Prophetic Action 25% HP-Shield (Classfeature)
    Warding Flair, 10% max. HP Shield
    DO-DC -> feats:
    Have Faith 5% DR
    Devine Intervention 150% weapon damage shielded -> this is a huge source of shielded damage in PVP actually

    = +112,5% Damage reduction -> "overcapped"
    = -67,5% incoming damage
    = up to 115% temp HP/shield , plus 150% weapondamage reapplied shield

    NWO is the only game I know, where one class can make a tank out of every other class, on top of allready existing super-buffs.
    There is one leader class in NWO, no other -> DC
    And there will be no other except devs decide to nerf the tools DC´s got by a very, very, huge margin again, for the sake of balance and viability of other classes, in case they implement a Bard or think about making Devo OP a real option in an average setup (1.tank 1 leader).
    There is a compareable situation (the gap is huge, but smaller compared to DC and other leader)
    GF/tank and OP/tank -> what is the purpose these days to randomqueue as a GF, beside trolling your hole team, in case you are not a highly geared dps-GF ?

    *if you want so, Devo OP is from no demand outside of premades, because a combination out of GF/Devo is far weaker than Prot/DC. In case you improve GF (tactitian, prot tree) the options would be better, even though DC/prot is still far better.
    And will still be on top in 5 years, because in this game there is no vision for balance in terms of buffs and classes, that´s definitely proven many, many times.
    Same that I doubt that "finetuning decisions" are made only by the headquarter of a company. No that is the department where people decide to push a hole game in a wrong direction, and thin out the staff :).
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    "Terrifying Insight: Seeing the inevitable destruction of your foes, you deal 10/15/20/25% more damage. Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds" --> I would prefer you reverse it to an increase of allies' damage by 10% instead of a damage resistance debuff, it would be a better compromise because POD is also nerfed.

    The other changes are ok. Overall, the changes are just going to upset speed-runners. The dungeons will still be completed.

    I am sure that DOs will still be requested despite the 'nerf", given that most of the ACs can cover the double daily, and given that DOs still have a weaker version of POD and have a quicker rotation in general.

    It will just give more opportunities to other buff-able classes.

    Now, you can put your thumbs down :D


    As far as I understood TI will buff for 25% (self) and buff group for 10% in mod 15, allready mentioned in this thread, the debuff should be a buff when mod 15 hits.

    Actually comparison of a DO-DC and a Templock:

    lordtweety#3604 said: And if that is what you want your toon to be, make a Paladin or Cleric.
    @bellkazi : "That is the problem.I have DC. I don't need support SW.
    Hallowed Ground(35%), Break the Spirit (21%), Divine Glow (12.5%) , Terrifying Insight (10% in M15) VS Pillar of Power (18%) and Soul Bonding (20%).
    Mulitplier 2.02>1.42
    Powerbuffs: Weapons of Light >> Dark Revelry
    Bear Your Sins(10%)+Condemning Gaze(15%)+Divine Glow(17.5%)+Prophecy of Doom(12.5%) VS Dreadtheft(25%)+Pillar of Power(10%)+Aura of Despair(5%)
    debuffs 55% > 15-40%
    Damage Temptation=Damage DO in M14
    Damage Temptation < Damage DO in M15 "


    If you add an AC DC it´s:
    buffs: DO 1.485 > temp 1.42
    debuff: 20% < 15% - 40% (when DR up)
    powerbuff WoL (since not stacking) < Dark revelry (+20% basepower)

    DO is flexible by running PoD+DL+xy (dps/heal/mitigation) and should deal definitely more dps than a templock.
    PoD deletes it´s own proc getting reapplied somehow, that should be addressed.
    DO is better than all 2. rate buffer in terms of buffs, better than a tact GF in debuffs.
    He can go support on top, if he consequently denies to go dps -> AP gain and encounter reset (GoH+hastening light).
    The gap between 2. rate buffer is closer. Every DC can decide to run meta-powerbuffer setup on top.

    .... I'd still change TI to something like 15% group buff / 25% personal buff simply due to the fact teams run with one sole DC as DO and those teams literally did nothing to deserve a nerf to buff which is already lower then other party compositions. 2 DC runs will be less and less due to the changes to FF as well as other classes embracing DPS buff builds and hopefully receiving some improvements to utility and damage mitigation.


    Wich party compositions do you talk of?

    1. leader, 1. tank , 3 dps setup:
    Devo OP + protOP <<<< DO-DC + prot OP (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%) powerbuffs DO > devoOP (bypassed by prot)
    Devo-OP + tact GF << DO-DC + tact GF (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%), powerbuffs -OP >DO

    Other compositions like:
    AC-DC + prot OP > DO-DC + prot OP (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + Tact GF > DO-DC + Tact GF (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + prot OP >>>> DevoOP + prot OP
    AC-DC + tact GF >> DevoOP+Tact GF

    Now we talk about meta runs (hdps GF's excludet):
    GF(tact) + OP (devo) + AC/DC + hdps + 2. rate buffer
    *2. rate buffer in general are: CW-mof, GF(tact), Hunter, templock, DO-DC (in double DC setup)

    DO x 1.485, debuffs 20%
    GF x 1.35, debuffs 18%
    CW x 1.3 (uptime?), debuffs 70% ?
    Hunter x 1.4, debuffs 35%
    templock x 1.42, debuffs 15-40% - averaged 27,5%

    DO-DC has best buffs, mediocre debuffs, and dps will be better than Hunter, templock, tact GF and rene mof in mod 15 as 2.rate buffer, any questions?
    Your proposals widen a gap again, that needs to be closed !
    Ac with perfect ap gain can do aa when need( companions to get buff is enough) and then spam hallowed ground +bleesing the battle.

    You said about slow on thrash :P the buff from aa and hallowed ground together you dont need to cast empower spirit.


    ABout templock he debuffs a lot faster than a do dc and keep the debuffs easier than a dc.
    Templock deals a lot damage while buffing-debuffing and he do it faster than a do.
    IF you want to play with daunting light then and sw will go fury to be both dps .
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,404 Arc User

    "Terrifying Insight: Seeing the inevitable destruction of your foes, you deal 10/15/20/25% more damage. Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds" --> I would prefer you reverse it to an increase of allies' damage by 10% instead of a damage resistance debuff, it would be a better compromise because POD is also nerfed.

    The other changes are ok. Overall, the changes are just going to upset speed-runners. The dungeons will still be completed.

    I am sure that DOs will still be requested despite the 'nerf", given that most of the ACs can cover the double daily, and given that DOs still have a weaker version of POD and have a quicker rotation in general.

    It will just give more opportunities to other buff-able classes.

    Now, you can put your thumbs down :D


    As far as I understood TI will buff for 25% (self) and buff group for 10% in mod 15, allready mentioned in this thread, the debuff should be a buff when mod 15 hits.

    Actually comparison of a DO-DC and a Templock:

    lordtweety#3604 said: And if that is what you want your toon to be, make a Paladin or Cleric.
    @bellkazi : "That is the problem.I have DC. I don't need support SW.
    Hallowed Ground(35%), Break the Spirit (21%), Divine Glow (12.5%) , Terrifying Insight (10% in M15) VS Pillar of Power (18%) and Soul Bonding (20%).
    Mulitplier 2.02>1.42
    Powerbuffs: Weapons of Light >> Dark Revelry
    Bear Your Sins(10%)+Condemning Gaze(15%)+Divine Glow(17.5%)+Prophecy of Doom(12.5%) VS Dreadtheft(25%)+Pillar of Power(10%)+Aura of Despair(5%)
    debuffs 55% > 15-40%
    Damage Temptation=Damage DO in M14
    Damage Temptation < Damage DO in M15 "


    If you add an AC DC it´s:
    buffs: DO 1.485 > temp 1.42
    debuff: 20% < 15% - 40% (when DR up)
    powerbuff WoL (since not stacking) < Dark revelry (+20% basepower)

    DO is flexible by running PoD+DL+xy (dps/heal/mitigation) and should deal definitely more dps than a templock.
    PoD deletes it´s own proc getting reapplied somehow, that should be addressed.
    DO is better than all 2. rate buffer in terms of buffs, better than a tact GF in debuffs.
    He can go support on top, if he consequently denies to go dps -> AP gain and encounter reset (GoH+hastening light).
    The gap between 2. rate buffer is closer. Every DC can decide to run meta-powerbuffer setup on top.

    .... I'd still change TI to something like 15% group buff / 25% personal buff simply due to the fact teams run with one sole DC as DO and those teams literally did nothing to deserve a nerf to buff which is already lower then other party compositions. 2 DC runs will be less and less due to the changes to FF as well as other classes embracing DPS buff builds and hopefully receiving some improvements to utility and damage mitigation.


    Wich party compositions do you talk of?

    1. leader, 1. tank , 3 dps setup:
    Devo OP + protOP <<<< DO-DC + prot OP (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%) powerbuffs DO > devoOP (bypassed by prot)
    Devo-OP + tact GF << DO-DC + tact GF (buff 2.02 vs 1.33, debuffs 55% vs 30%), powerbuffs -OP >DO

    Other compositions like:
    AC-DC + prot OP > DO-DC + prot OP (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + Tact GF > DO-DC + Tact GF (at singel target imo, AC slower on trash)
    AC-DC + prot OP >>>> DevoOP + prot OP
    AC-DC + tact GF >> DevoOP+Tact GF

    Now we talk about meta runs (hdps GF's excludet):
    GF(tact) + OP (devo) + AC/DC + hdps + 2. rate buffer
    *2. rate buffer in general are: CW-mof, GF(tact), Hunter, templock, DO-DC (in double DC setup)

    DO x 1.485, debuffs 20%
    GF x 1.35, debuffs 18%
    CW x 1.3 (uptime?), debuffs 70% ?
    Hunter x 1.4, debuffs 35%
    templock x 1.42, debuffs 15-40% - averaged 27,5%

    DO-DC has best buffs, mediocre debuffs, and dps will be better than Hunter, templock, tact GF and rene mof in mod 15 as 2.rate buffer, any questions?
    Your proposals widen a gap again, that needs to be closed !
    Ac with perfect ap gain can do aa when need( companions to get buff is enough) and then spam hallowed ground +bleesing the battle.

    You said about slow on thrash :P the buff from aa and hallowed ground together you dont need to cast empower spirit.


    ABout templock he debuffs a lot faster than a do dc and keep the debuffs easier than a dc.

    AND sw if he plays fury will deal for sure more dps than dc do not to say that also as templock does more.

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