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M15: Great Weapon Fighter Class Changes

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  • heraldfayez#8520 heraldfayez Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    Hello again, i would have some suggestions that can be done with the viability of Instigator, for now Nimble runner and Crippling Strike tell us how the Paragon should be played, so there is involved alot of movement and control by slowing your enemies. So by doing so i would like to see some changes done in the Paragons with some of the tier stones being moved around, i saw that some of them are moved in the Trickster Thread or the Wizard Thread.




    The following choice in feats would help Instigator in keepin nimble runner at a better spot in terms of DPS




    And the following choice in feats would help a Destroyer Iron Vanguard into being a single target choice





    So basically what it needs to be done so far are the following changes

    1. Powerfull Challenge swapped with Grudge style, if it’s possible make it a party wide buff
    2. Battle Trample (iron vanguard feat) being replaced with Ferocious reaction (iron vanguard feat).

    Swaping those feats in the paragons and fixing the following bugs in which Trample the Fallen and Crippling Strike doesn’t affect the immune to CC targets would make Instigator viable.

    Another bug i found out is the Slam not proccing Combatant’s Maneuver on some bosses.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.
    Post edited by ragequittingdc#8599 on
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.

    Nothing in the comment above yours is a Nerf, general improvements. ^-^
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.
    >
    > Nothing in the comment above yours is a Nerf, general improvements. ^-^

    moving powerful change further down the tree is absolutely a nerf for destroyer sm gwf. for sentinel, that change does not make them viable, still, and where does that leave us? lose/lose and that is without even mentioning grim and wms swap, another huge loss.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.
    > >
    > > Nothing in the comment above yours is a Nerf, general improvements. ^-^
    >
    > moving powerful change further down the tree is absolutely nerf.

    -w• Flanking Maneuver is better than Powerful challenge, and we don't have to pick a completely useless feat prior to it, you can also drop RBF or BA whichever you use since they don't provide much in the first place, instead those points can help ya get flanking. Do you know how increase Weapon Damage works vs a feat buff 15%? ^-^

    As for Grim and Staying Power you're reading that Wrong he's saying switch around the IV variants.
  • > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > > asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.
    > > >
    > > > Nothing in the comment above yours is a Nerf, general improvements. ^-^
    > >
    > > moving powerful change further down the tree is absolutely nerf.
    >
    > -w• Flanking Maneuver is better than Powerful challenge, and we don't have to pick a completely useless feat prior to it, you can also drop RBF or BA whichever you use since they don't provide much in the first place, instead those points can help ya get flanking. Do you know how increase Weapon Damage works vs a feat buff 15%? ^-^

    caught before the edit but you should see it now, however, who is even using ba in this mod is more like it. 20% of weapon damage is not better than 15% damage increase with mark up.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    <a href='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>

    You must keep in mind Powerful Challenge only buffs things, while the weapon damage itself is buffed by every other buff under the sun.
  • > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > > asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.
    > > >
    > > > Nothing in the comment above yours is a Nerf, general improvements. ^-^
    > >
    > > moving powerful change further down the tree is absolutely nerf.
    >
    > -w• Flanking Maneuver is better than Powerful challenge, and we don't have to pick a completely useless feat prior to it, you can also drop RBF or BA whichever you use since they don't provide much in the first place, instead those points can help ya get flanking. Do you know how increase Weapon Damage works vs a feat buff 15%? ^-^
    >
    > As for Grim and Staying Power you're reading that Wrong he's saying switch around the IV variants.

    whoops, but I would still like to read how flank is some how better.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (Janne's)
    Ask yourself what happens to weapon damage after its buffed by everything else, compared to a buff that only effects certain things?
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @ltsmithneko said:
    > <a href='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>
    >
    > You must keep in mind Powerful Challenge only buffs things, while the weapon damage itself is buffed by every other buff under the sun.

    holy and terror also scale with power buffs as weapon damage, damage, but a feytouched is better than both. also, I'm not so good at math to be clear, so that is as good as chicken scratches to me unfortunately.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > <a href='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>
    > >
    > > You must keep in mind Powerful Challenge only buffs things, while the weapon damage itself is buffed by every other buff under the sun.
    >
    > holy and terror also scale with buffs as weapon damage, but a feytouched is better than both. also, I'm not so good at math to be clear, so that is as good as chicken scratches to me unfortunately.

    But Holy n’ Terror are a poor mans Prominence, and Fey scales off of buffs, but buffs need a good base or a very over powering buff to be worth hence why Prom beats Fey most the time with exception to Orcus in Tong due to Bloody Death.

    -w• As for that then you can stick with Powerful Challenge if you’d prefer while others will go with da new feat on the block.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    About change feats between destroyer and instigator, for different playstyles/synergy porposes, should be interesting change unfettered strike (buffed to 25%+other bonus) to group assault.

    Warrior’s Rush+Nimble Runner is a great idea, but… I only see that be desirable if "W,R" buff daggers or stack duration and "N.R" up to 100% or more… and between us? Its should be a capstone.


    EDIT BECAUSE I MESSED NINBLE RUNNER AND GROUP ASSAULT IN THIS SECOND PARAGRAPH... hahaha
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > @ragequittingdc#8599 said:
    > > > @ltsmithneko said:
    > > > <a href='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR' title=''><img src='http://i.imgur.com/siqExvR.jpg' alt='' title='Hosted by imgur.com' /></a>
    > > >
    > > > You must keep in mind Powerful Challenge only buffs things, while the weapon damage itself is buffed by every other buff under the sun.
    > >
    > > holy and terror also scale with buffs as weapon damage, but a feytouched is better than both. also, I'm not so good at math to be clear, so that is as good as chicken scratches to me unfortunately.
    >
    > But Holy n’ Terror are a poor mans Prominence, and Fey scales off of buffs, but buffs need a good base or a very over powering buff to be worth hence why Prom beats Fey most the time with exception to Orcus in Tong due to Bloody Death.
    >
    > -w• As for that then you can stick with Powerful Challenge if you’d prefer while others will go with da new feat on the block.

    I have used all of them except terror and with prominence I do see an increase, but it's also much higher than a 5% difference in base damage in comparison when gauged vs feytouched, or the former. instead of it being the new feat it can stay where it is by all means lol. the IV change is welcome though.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    think about this as well whenever you get back around to the changes threads. you're siding with the option to become entirely reliant on another characters build to have more worth in a group during a time period revolving around buffing being scaled back.
    DO has already taken a serious hit and there is a push for AC to get a reduction in an effort to balance their group value, either this upcoming mod or the next mod after. the last place you want to be right now is tossed in the experimental feat rework group over what is tried and true, isn't broken and doesn't need fixing.
    I'm still trying to see where you are coming from with that formula of course, I know alot of people swear by Janne, that website is pretty extensive after all, but where is all of this damage supposed to be brought about from?
    im actually the gwf carry
  • itzlapolaloltzitzlapolaloltz Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    To put it simply. what is our job?
    To deal hell of damage.

    So if new balanced path is less than actual destroyer meta, why would people change?
  • zacoria1405zacoria1405 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    I have a great idea, why not change the GWF class to a buff,debuff class for the next few mods like you have for just about all the other dps classes. This would give them a great chance to do 2nd rate dps and rarely get invited to endgame content for the next 18 months like sw's, hr's and cw's. Only seems fair that they get a fair chance to experience what it's like to have the class they signed up for completely changed to something else like the rest of us.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Lol +1.

    Give my HR a big sword and some roller skates too plz.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    zacoria... historically speaking, gwf was this class, fallen into disuse or with improviments already changed in the next module, becoming solid from module 6 (destroyer only). the difference is: since that time, you only had one "playstyle", 4-6 usableis encounters and two atwills; sure strike+paragon atwill. I think that dont will change
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    How can a 15% damage increase from Powerfull challenge (all your damage I´d think) be worse that a +20% weapondamage from Flanking maneuvers , ok it´s a GFW with tons of multiplier, but honestly I think that´s impossible.
    There is something foul in that math imo :)
    Or does Powerfull Challenge only buff encounter damage and procs from Enchants and AoC etc doesn´t scale with it?
    But go on with it, maybe we can welcome GWF beside SW, CW, maybe TR? in the 2. grade dps section ? So who is left, Hunter then? :p
  • jayjay#5355 jayjay Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    Couple bugs the community has found.

    #1.
    Nimble Runner: just slotted seems to increase the damage by 8.29% , and not 8.25%
    seems like with 4 stacks of unfettered strike ( 25% movement speed) the dmg is increased by 9.84%
    25% movement speed(unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (Fleet floated) the damage increase by 11.26%
    3.5% ( Darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) the damage increased by 11.5%
    3.5%(darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) + Bravery rank 4 (17.5% movement speed) the damage is increased by 13.08%

    So basically adding 61% Movement Speed the Damage increased by 4.79% from 13.08%(with 61%) - 8.29%(just feat slotted).


    #2.
    Flanking maneuver AND Steel Blitz seems not to scale with Weapon master strike DR debuff, and doesnt benefit over Stayin Power either.
  • tanais58cranetanais58crane Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited September 2018



    Feats:

    Nimble Runner (Reworked): Your damage dealt is increased by 1.65/3.3/4.95/6.6/8.25%. This value increases as your total movement speed increases, up to a maximum of 40%.

    If you really want people to give this play-style a try, uncap this or give it a needs-a-nerf-high cap, to make speed-based builds actually desirable for a time.

    Then tune it back after a couple of patches to a reasonable place where it is still an option, just properly balanced.

    Should make for a few interesting weeks that'll have a lot of Great Weapon Fighters taking this baby for a fun ride.

    Out of which, some will decide to stick with the play-style after the balancing. I said balancing, not nerfing to oblivion.

    Little to no effort, little to no backslash, and a huge rush of players willing to try the new feat path.
    The stars are falling, and the old gods silent as death, with the blood sworn to rip you down from the night sky, what cost will pose too high?
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    To put it simply. what is our job?
    To deal hell of damage.

    That's because people like you think this way that the class hasn't gone anywhere in 5 years

    I'm still not sold on Insti being a full dps (that my opinion, don't take it as general) only path like destroyer as I would have preferred a more supportive path but w/e at least we get alternatives (edit : and that's good don't get me wrong)

    btw can we have dev participation ? it's not like gwf is reworked every mods
    Post edited by c3rb3r3 on
  • itzlapolaloltzitzlapolaloltz Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    c3rb3r3 said:

    To put it simply. what is our job?
    To deal hell of damage.

    That's because people like you think this way that the class hasn't gone anywhere in 5 years

    I'm still not sold on Insti being a full dps only path like destroyer as I would have preferred a more supportive path but w/e at least we get alternatives

    btw can we have dev participation ? it's not like gwf is reworked every mods
    You got me wrong, I am not against changes.
    I will gladly try new path if my DPS doesnt suffer because honestly our assets are DPS and being not squishy.
    Are we needed for party buff? No
    Are we needed for AoE? No
    Are we needed for tanking? No
    Are we needed for healing? No
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    ultimate idea for Group Assault/reaping strike-wicked strike problem:

    no chance to that feat improve both, reaping strike and wicked strike attack speed to Unstoppable levels? (being not affected when Unstoppable) that change not only will do that atwills viables, but will create a interesting combo with wrathful determination (damage and speed+off hand).
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.

    You're right. The fact is that the balancing you're getting is way more... well balanced? So note that any over-emotional-ism is envy and/or unintentional projection of their upset.

    One big reason is that they want more builds/trees to be useful. For all classes. Problem is, they're nerfing Executioner Tree. Hypothetically, it's like if they decided to nerf the Destroyer Tree (and I'm happy as hell they didn't!). The secondary problem is that they also didn't do enough to have the other TR trees be effective. (Not to mention debuffing the Dailies) As for the GWF, I think it's great the renovations on the Instigator tree.

    "Nerfing" and "buffing" are the basic tools for patching balance. The key question for the design team is when to choose to buff, when to choose to nerf.

    Like I said, I'd love to keep Destroyer how it is, and buffing the Instigator Tree is great because it allows for another viable tree.

    The problem is that Cryptic is that their attempt at balancing the TR's paragon feat trees was done opposite of what they did for GWF. While the Destroyer tree was maintained, the Executioner tree was not. Key word "maintained", because they didn't nerf or buff the current competitive GWF tree, really. It was maintained, and they brought the other lines UP... Instead of how with the TR they brought the competitive line DOWN for their goal of balancing the three trees. The Sabo tree did have improvements (which me likey), but I'll withhold judgment on that until it's live and seeing how well it "competes" against the endgame builds.

    Power looping is a whole other thing. I do agree with changing the TR to less rely on power looping. Ignoring how useful it is, it is wholly not interesting for anyone wanting the stealthy/glass-cannon typical Rogue. (It's kinda lkie how Eve Online looks so awesome... Until you find out you can't play it well without a bunch of spreadsheets). Ironically, the capstone TR feats are very "Rogue-like" and have jack HAMSTER to do with "playing the mechanics" as much as playing an "ordinary" party role.

    The problem is that, again, they are ridding Power looping without compensating by bringing in a reasonable, moderate, non-OP mechanic (or whatever).

    But don't misunderstand me. I think GWF's are fine and again I love that they're bringing a tree up to competitive par. Sure, there are a lot of random, silly complaints about the GWF floating around the TR forums, but it's really not about GWFs at all. It's more about how Cryptic is.. unbalanced in balancing. And it isn't even about bias. GWFs aren't overpowered. Nobody wants them nerfed. It's just that certain classes don't get the same level of smart, quality mechanic adjustments.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,048 Arc User

    asking for nerfs lol...improving instigator and sentinel are good things, but not at the cost of crippling gwf destroyer swordmaster, similar to how tr master infiltrator excecutioners and chilling presence cw oppressors have been.

    You're right. The fact is that the balancing you're getting is way more... well balanced? So note that any over-emotional-ism is envy and/or unintentional projection of their upset.

    One big reason is that they want more builds/trees to be useful. For all classes. Problem is, they're nerfing Executioner Tree. Hypothetically, it's like if they decided to nerf the Destroyer Tree (and I'm happy as hell they didn't!). The secondary problem is that they also didn't do enough to have the other TR trees be effective. (Not to mention debuffing the Dailies) As for the GWF, I think it's great the renovations on the Instigator tree.

    "Nerfing" and "buffing" are the basic tools for patching balance. The key question for the design team is when to choose to buff, when to choose to nerf.

    Like I said, I'd love to keep Destroyer how it is, and buffing the Instigator Tree is great because it allows for another viable tree.

    The problem is that Cryptic is that their attempt at balancing the TR's paragon feat trees was done opposite of what they did for GWF. While the Destroyer tree was maintained, the Executioner tree was not. Key word "maintained", because they didn't nerf or buff the current competitive GWF tree, really. It was maintained, and they brought the other lines UP... Instead of how with the TR they brought the competitive line DOWN for their goal of balancing the three trees. The Sabo tree did have improvements (which me likey), but I'll withhold judgment on that until it's live and seeing how well it "competes" against the endgame builds.

    Power looping is a whole other thing. I do agree with changing the TR to less rely on power looping. Ignoring how useful it is, it is wholly not interesting for anyone wanting the stealthy/glass-cannon typical Rogue. (It's kinda lkie how Eve Online looks so awesome... Until you find out you can't play it well without a bunch of spreadsheets). Ironically, the capstone TR feats are very "Rogue-like" and have jack HAMSTER to do with "playing the mechanics" as much as playing an "ordinary" party role.

    The problem is that, again, they are ridding Power looping without compensating by bringing in a reasonable, moderate, non-OP mechanic (or whatever).

    But don't misunderstand me. I think GWF's are fine and again I love that they're bringing a tree up to competitive par. Sure, there are a lot of random, silly complaints about the GWF floating around the TR forums, but it's really not about GWFs at all. It's more about how Cryptic is.. unbalanced in balancing. And it isn't even about bias. GWFs aren't overpowered. Nobody wants them nerfed. It's just that certain classes don't get the same level of smart, quality mechanic adjustments.
    The issue is that the devs see that TRs are stupidy good in PvP, so they assume it's the same in PvE.

    It's kinda ironic that then they proceed to buff TRs for PvP and nerf for PvE.

    GWF is fine as it is. TRs should be returned to M14 level. Perhaps even buffed in some situations (and fixed in others, AoC bomb is nasty xD).

    HRs are fine on AoE, I'd just wish to see some more burst for single target. Same goes for SWs.


    The issue with DoTs is - it's a burst meta. The reason 1phase is possible is because you can stack all of your buffs up to one perfect moment to do damage at with your biggest hitting powers, and HRs and SWs don't have it. GFs have GW for instance.

    However, changing that would result in a very low skill ceiling for buffers. You'd need something that scales with skill, and it's timing. This applies to every single competitive game ever. A majority of them also include testing your reflexes, but that's reserved more for video games.
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    edited October 2018



    Just remember the differing damage with SS and WMS are actually based on Ability Coefficients so %'s aren't 100% correct, but their close, and relatively easy for anyone to understand.

    It’d be highly appreciated if you let the Damage Resistance actually be shown on the Character Sheet, other than just be completely invisible. ^-^



    Isn't listed anywhere nor needs to crowd up powers providing our mark/GF mark, it should be listed among the General Powers, yet the respected name should be mentioned in the power it effects for example Daring Shout is a Fighter’s Mark while Threatening Rush is a Warrior’s Mark.








    Also there is no CC immunity with this daily so you can lose all your Action points without even doing anything due to CC, nor does it push enemies around you away with the Warcry. ^-^

    @balanced#2849 I'd like to request Daring Shouts Damage Resistance scaling be tweaked a bit... ^-^" Atm it's all over the place depending on the enemy and the attack they use ranging from -13%-61%. Maybe make it level differing base. So if you and the enemy is equal LvL 10% one LvL diff higher is 15%, two 20%, three 25% and so on. And if the enemy is lower one lvl it'll decrease by 2% so if you're 70 A 69 enemy will provide you 8%, 68 6%, 67, 4% and the enemy is between 1-67 while you're 70 2%. •^• At least that'd be consistent, plus can you make it actually visible on Char sheet?


    Another request to make this one visual on the character sheet. ^-^
    Post edited by ltsmithneko on
  • evilvenom316evilvenom316 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Was There Any Changes To The Destroyer GWF? Did You Fix The GLITCH Where The Determination Bar Would Be Full And Flashing But Wouldn't Activate Untill You Exited And Rejoined The Instance?
  • ltsmithnekoltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    > @evilvenom316 said:
    > Was There Any Changes To The Destroyer GWF? Did You Fix The GLITCH Where The Determination Bar Would Be Full And Flashing But Wouldn't Activate Untill You Exited And Rejoined The Instance?

    That’s because you activated Unstoppable while Yuanti performed their power on ya, you can easily advoid this. It’s not something that can easily be fixed internally.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    It's kinda ironic that then they proceed to buff TRs for PvP and nerf for PvE.

    Maybe that's why the Whisperknife hasn't been buffed. They're scared that it'd be made too PVP powerful, heh.
    GWF is fine as it is.
    Yeah, I'm excited to start one now because of the Instigator changes. I never played very far because I personally wasn't looking for a Destroyer-type of melee character.
    HRs are fine on AoE, I'd just wish to see some more burst for single target. Same goes for SWs.
    I don't know why the devs so are so intelligent and balanced/non-biased with handling the GWF, at least compared to other classes. I don't believe in the "favored class" thing, nor is there any TR who desires the GWF to be nerfed. Rather, it would just be nice if Cryptic could balance/renovate the entire game as well as they are managing to do with the GWF this Mod. Not just the TR. All game mechanics overall.

    Indeed, I would not be happy if the GWF were nerfed.
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