anti elitism more problematic than elitism?

13

Comments

  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    "Elitist" is relative to self-perception.
    If you perceive you are excluded from content and demeaned for your gear, IL, playstyle or non-meta build by another player, you will consider them an "elitist".

    In my ~5 yrs in NW, everyone who is a victim of the above is *just* as likely to flame a new/casual player who LFGs/PUGs into ur run and does not meet your expectations.

    Example, I patiently trained someone to run CR for >2 hours (they killed me >10 times by hitting sisters on chains). Later, when they were running it smoothly they voted to kick anyone who deviated from expectations in any way. If anyone hit sisters on chains they were kicked. "Git Gud."
    Aren't they now "elitist" themselves? Aren't we all at some point?
    *shrug*
    I dunno.

    Took's solution: Try the Golden Rule:
    Treat others as you would like to be treated in their circumstance.
    That works for me.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • laurylyan
    laurylyan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5 Arc User

    "Elitist" is relative to self-perception.

    Really?


    If you perceive you are excluded from content and demeaned for your gear, IL, playstyle or non-meta build by another player, you will consider them an "elitist".

    So... It is "relative to self-perception" and then you immediately define how others are calling a third party "elitist"?
    Did I miss something here?


    In my ~5 yrs in NW, everyone who is a victim of the above is *just* as likely to flame a new/casual player who LFGs/PUGs into ur run and does not meet your expectations.

    Example, I patiently trained someone to run CR for >2 hours (they killed me >10 times by hitting sisters on chains). Later, when they were running it smoothly they voted to kick anyone who deviated from expectations in any way. If anyone hit sisters on chains they were kicked. "Git Gud."
    Aren't they now "elitist" themselves? Aren't we all at some point?
    *shrug*
    I dunno.

    So... maybe it's a matter of... attitude? Of... maturity? ^o^


  • chivonica
    chivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    Idk. I noticed a player struggling in a dungeon and inspected him. He was way below the min iL as his companion had died. I asked him to get the companion out to help just before a boss, he got on comms and said I don't need this HAMSTER and logd off....

    Am I an elitist for asking/pointing out such things? Sad times.
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    "Elitist" is relative to self-perception.
    If you perceive you are excluded from content and demeaned for your gear, IL, playstyle or non-meta build by another player, you will consider them an "elitist".

    Seems to me elitism is elitism, if a player attempts to exclude another from content, demeans another for their proficiency or playstyle, they are exhibiting elitist behavior... It has very little to do with the perception of the recipient of that behavior.

    At least in my opinion.

    In my ~5 yrs in NW, everyone who is a victim of the above is *just* as likely to flame a new/casual player who LFGs/PUGs into ur run and does not meet your expectations.

    Example, I patiently trained someone to run CR for >2 hours (they killed me >10 times by hitting sisters on chains). Later, when they were running it smoothly they voted to kick anyone who deviated from expectations in any way. If anyone hit sisters on chains they were kicked. "Git Gud."

    I wonder where this player you trained got the idea that they should or it would even be acceptable to vote to kick another player who doesn't live up to their expectations?

    That's not behavior a player ordinarily just picks up on their own, at least in my experience anyway.

    At sometime during their experience or training they somehow came up with the idea that any player not playing to their level of approval, should be excluded... People learn as often or more often from the example of other players as they do from personal experience or training.

    As you stated any player is "likely" to display elitist behavior, denigrating other players for their playstyle, lack of speed, tactics or ability - or trying to exclude players who aren't up to their standards - thankfully few players do and better yet they appear to be in the minority of the player population.
    chivonica said:

    Idk. I noticed a player struggling in a dungeon and inspected him. He was way below the min iL as his companion had died. I asked him to get the companion out to help just before a boss, he got on comms and said I don't need this HAMSTER and logd off....

    Am I an elitist for asking/pointing out such things? Sad times.

    So are players being able to enter content with item levels below the minimum required level a common thing?

    From my experience any player with an item level below the minimum required, can't even get into that content... but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

    It might just be me but I don't consider offering constructive suggestions as to how to play better, more efficiently as a hallmark of elitism... but of course a part of that is how the information was offered.

    There are many different ways of offering advice, some more benign than others. Of course there are also players who will take any kind of advice - even the most polite and benign - as an insult too.
  • commanderdata002
    commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Anti-elitist?
    And what can they do?
    Kick you out if the run is too fast?
    Kick you out after a good rotation?
    Kick you out if you manage to do Strahd mechanics for the first time?
    Kick you out over 17k+ ?

    I think anti-elitist can be some prouder self-definiton for casuals...
    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • kvet
    kvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    So, my alliance, I guess, is what you'd classify as an anti-elitist alliance. We do, in fact, disallow IL requirements when posting for runs in Alliance. The expectation is that we members understand their own limitations and, if they are new to the run or undergeared, that they would say so upfront so the group knows what it's getting into.

    It's not an everyone gets a trophy thing so much as, help out your alliance mates. Does that means some runs go longer than the so-called meta time for that dungone? Yes. Does that mean it always succeeds? No. However, as an alliance, we value playing and interacting, accepting the challenge (you know, the one that all the elitists say doesn't exist in Neverwinter), and helping out each other improve. Is my alliance perfect? No - there's plenty of elitism buried under the veneer - each guild is it's own entity and they're free to seek "HDPS" or "15K+" or whatever within their own guild chat. I know the Greycloaks/Blackcloaks don't do that, but I can't speak for other alliance guilds, and I wouldn't want to.

    What's toxic is when someone either spends tons of time, or tons of money (or both) to get all the things and then looks down on people that haven't done that and forgets that, at some point, they were right there trying to learn the game, trying to gather even a few of the things... And then, they come complain about all the low power players wanting their trophy too, when the reality is... they want to get powered up just the same. EVERYONE got carried at some point, so it's the height of arrogance to think just because you have your precious 16K IL that suddenly everyone new to the game is just a hinderance and is worthless and to be, effectively, ignored. THAT is the attitude that turns alliances toxic. Alliances built on mutual respect and assistance will get drama when someone that doesn't believe in those principles whining about how they deserve only 16K+ perfect meta runs because they're better and everyone else sucks and doesn't know anything. THAT'S how an "anti-elite" alliance gets toxic.
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    kvet said:

    So, my alliance, I guess, is what you'd classify as an anti-elitist alliance. We do, in fact, disallow IL requirements when posting for runs in Alliance. The expectation is that we members understand their own limitations and, if they are new to the run or undergeared, that they would say so upfront so the group knows what it's getting into.

    Same here. We also try to do "training runs" every now and then, like running CoDG with inexperienced players, stating beforehand something like "if we succeed, fine...otherwise we will make 3 attempts so people can practice staying on the platform". Same goes for Tong - get 4 experienced people and then advertise for one "first-timer" - basically teaching him/her to do the dungeon.

    The problem is with the occasional player who having been carried once, expects to get carried again and again and... as if was a "right", instead of focusing on improving the character so he does not need a "charity run".



    Hoping for improvements...
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    laurylyan said:

    "Elitist" is relative to self-perception.

    Really?

    Yes, @laurylyan . Really.

    Like most self-imposed social concepts like "embarrassment" and "envy", "elitist suppression" is defined by the victim (or self-perceived victim), not the offender.

    If your toon is passed over for a run because it is not perfectly specced/geared for the min/max meta, you have a choice...

    A ) The Victim Path:
    Choose to cry/rage/fume about how evil the person is and how unfair you have been treated. Post a few rants and then cry into your Haagen-Dazs.

    Pros: Short term catharsis and (illusionary) vindication
    Cons: No personal or in-game growth occurs, contraction of your sphere of influence

    B ) The Pragmatist Path
    Accept the feedback objectively, with a grain of salt. This is one biased person's opinion.
    Validate it as true or false by researching the forums. Make useful changes to your build. Or decide the feedback as useless. Block the offender because he/she is clearly has an attitude you don't want to play with anyway.
    Either way, they did you a favor.

    Pros: Personal growth certain, Toon improvement possible, Troll exclusion probable.
    Cons: No rapid adrenaline surge of petty revenge. Requires patiently accepting a perceived slight or insult.

    Guess which path The Took follows. B)


    If you perceive you are excluded from content and demeaned for your gear, IL, playstyle or non-meta build by another player, you will consider them an "elitist".

    So... It is "relative to self-perception" and then you immediately define how others are calling a third party "elitist"?
    Did I miss something here?


    Maybe. The point is Elitist is relative.
    Consider this, @laurylyan . Think of the very first time you ran ToNG.
    If you failed to follow the ToNG Orcus mechanics perfectly the first few times you ran it you probably were offended if another player criticized you for it. Maybe you considered them Elitist.

    But can you swear, after hundreds of ToNGs, you have never been critical of a player who did not do their homework before running with you?
    Never asked a GF why he wasn't marking?
    Never raged at a Orcus ball wipe or RasNisi platform fall or missing Bane or AoC or Exaltation bind or paltry powershare?
    Let he who is without judgement cast the first... uh. Judgement. ;)


    In my ~5 yrs in NW, everyone who is a victim of the above is *just* as likely to flame a new/casual player who LFGs/PUGs into ur run and does not meet your expectations.
    Example, I patiently trained someone to run CR for >2 hours (they killed me >10 times by hitting sisters on chains). Later, when they were running it smoothly they voted to kick anyone who deviated from expectations in any way. If anyone hit sisters on chains they were kicked. "Git Gud."
    Aren't they now "elitist" themselves? Aren't we all at some point?
    *shrug*
    I dunno.

    So... maybe it's a matter of... attitude? Of... maturity? ^o^
    Um... yes. Yes it is. The reality of online life: 12 year-olds have as much power and moral authority as 65year-olds...
    usually more.

    Edit:
    misquoted @chidion .
    Fool of a Took
    Post edited by dread4moor on
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • ragequittingdc#8599
    ragequittingdc#8599 Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    I don't know, there's a thin line. I'm more elitist than I probably think, but I do gear checks, not ilvl checks.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User

    I don't know, there's a thin line. I'm more elitist than I probably think, but I do gear checks, not ilvl checks.

    A player previously posted something about random dungeon content being "too easy"...

    Some of the suggestions for making that content less boring or more challenging was to stash the better than average gear for that content and run some content with lower level gear. That being the case what does a gear check actually tell anyone other than the player is, for what ever reason, choosing to run with lower level gear?

    For me as long as any player does not suggest or try to deny another player the opportunity to participate, or seeks to ridicule another player for their lack of skill, gear, speed or item level I personally wouldn't think of them as displaying an elitist attitude.

    Those who mock, derides or otherwise attacks another player or attempts to exclude a player for their lack of skill, gear, speed or item level are the ones I consider displaying elitist behavior...

    But then just in making that statement it pretty much shows me to have an elitist attitude, thinking I should be able to dictate or specify to other players how they should play or treat other players.

    It is indeed a fine line.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The entire thread is struggling with a clear definition of what is meant by 'elitist' :)

    But let me state it differently:
    1: For my daily farming runs I want smooth runs. I don't have the time nor energy to do nightmare 2 hour Tong/FBI/MSP runs every day as party of my farm routine - or even worse failing a run.
    2: Said smooth runs generally do require people in my team with a reasonable gear level. While 'reasonable gear level' depends on class and personal skill, the only way I have to quickly judge if a group is viable is to look at the IL and class.

    That means I am shutting out people that in my opinion are too badly geared from playing highlevel content with me, generally by just abandoning such (RQ) groups. Other people do this by only joining preformed groups, where the low IL people are never invited. Different way of doing it, same effect.

    If that makes me elitist, then so be it.

    But the other side of this coin is this: There also is a responsibility for people signing up for highlevel content to be able to contribute in that content at a reasonable level. If not, they mess up the play experience for the other players in the group.

    And that is not working very well. People do not (want to)realize that they are not yet ready for highlevel content, or they just do not care and try to leech. It is a basic human character trait to always think as highly as possible of yourself, we are all world champions in our own eyes.
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    I used to help new people go through the dungeons and zones, every day, showing them and giving them gear, companions, or AD as a start bonus.
    From little old Lair to Tong. From Somi to doing little quests with new people in Sharandar.
    Wasting hours of my free time.
    Doing Lair for 3 hours , teaching little ones how to kill scorpions or showing them the best way to defeat a silly skirmish.
    What i got in return is begging to carry people and their friends when i wanted to do something else and dissing when i could not.
    Cos lets face it , a day only has 24 hours.
    And sometimes, just sometimes i really do not wish to do a dungeon for 3 hours with same new people i already showed them how to kill things.
    Since that is the only free time i have. Is that selfish? Maybe.

    But there where also many things i wanted to be doing with my guild or alliance and also not to forget the grind for AD and seals and tokens and what not.

    In the end the same people kicked me from runs they invited me in. When the loot was in question.
    Or made me wait for them while they afkd in the middle of lair so i did scorpions by myself.

    Many times i got insulted as a reward for my help when showing them what is the build they should go for or telling them what they should focus on.
    And then i stopped helping them. Getting tired of ungrateful people who are too lazy to do things by themselves.
    Begging for gear , companions, AD , gold, runes and stones.. and when you say no you are garbage.

    In my experience, if you offer a finger they will take your hand. Is that bad? Not really. It is human nature.
    However i do not have to be the one going through that. Is that an elitist way of thinking? Perhaps.
    But i had more bad exp. with helping then when i was not helping.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • rustyroo13#1749
    rustyroo13#1749 Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    But the other side of this coin is this: There also is a responsibility for people signing up for highlevel content to be able to contribute in that content at a reasonable level. If not, they mess up the play experience for the other players in the group.

    And that is not working very well. People do not (want to) realize that they are not yet ready for highlevel content, or they just do not care and try to leech. It is a basic human character trait to always think as highly as possible of yourself, we are all world champions in our own eyes.

    Therein stems the problem. While it is true that some are not ready for higher content, how are they to know unless they run the content in the first place? One can watch as many tutorials and how to's as they possibly can to prepare themselves, but all those pale in comparison to doing the real thing. The bottom line is if a person has the required iL for a dungeon, they just won't know if they can handle the dungeon until they do it. On the flip side, the whole point of running a dungeon is running as a team, and I've seen more players take off and leave others in the dust, more times that not resulting in the deaths of the ones who are left behind (and usually the players new to the dungeon). And then the ones who zip ahead get frustrated and want to kick the others because they are "lagging behind" and "not prepared" for the dungeon! If they stayed together, maybe the new players would learn what they are really capable of, and maybe the seasoned players would get their smooth run.

    Just something to think about.
    Arielle Redbow half-elf Warden Ranger
    Guild: Guardians of the Forest
  • kvet
    kvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    You can easily have elitists on both side of an issue. People that want their "smooth run" with "reasonably gear" players (Translation: if we have to stop moving for more than 1 minute on any given fight and wipe on any boss, then clearly someone on the team sucks and shouldn't be doing the dungeon at all) and will therefore intentionally exclude the vast majority of Neverwinter players (which, as I recall being stated by a dev once, somewhere on the order of 10K on average) because they consider those players beneath them... that's elitism.

    Players that consider high IL players as whales, or snobs, and who refused to run with them unless they allow their 9.8k IL guildmate to run a REQ (or whatever) with them because that would be elitist and doesn't allow that very low geared player the ability to experience the content and learn from experienced players.... are also elitist.

    The answer, though, is in the middle and I agree with @chidion here and have said the same thing numerous times:
    chidion said:


    If a player wants to run content like Tong/FBI/MSP with only other players they consider "reasonably geared" or whatever, queue for a private run and only invite players with the levels specified... If a player wants to run random content, since queuing for that is quicker and easier, then those players should expect to encounter random players who may not conform to their expectations of how everyone else should be geared or participate...

    Create your own channels (or join an existing one) if you want to form premades to run content with specifically geared players. If you pug, take responsibility for your own actions and understand that by doing so, you WILL be running content with lower geared inexperienced players. If that's not what you want, then don't run Pug groups OR step up and help that group through the dungeon.

    Now... if someone isn't really contributing, as in AFK by the door or whatever, then kick them - but there's not contributing and there's not being able to contribute as effectively as you might want them to. If you are pugging, then you must be able to keep those two things straight.

    So... play the game how you want until/unless your playstyle hurts other player's ability to play the game. There are easy outlets for high-end players to run as a group on their own. New players won't have those outlets yet and are forced to rely on the RQs - that's a given. Again, take responsibility for your own self - it's like a pro footballer stepping into an school yard pitch and screaming at the kids for not being able to kick the ball all the way up the field or bending it around a wall - don't RQ with a premade team if you can't handle the idea of running anything but "smooth, fast" endgame DD runs.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    It does not matter if you are in an elite guild or not. There are cliches that run together regularly. Those players tend to have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 DPS each or most of those players only man the same character. They run together and if one of their main cogs it out, they may throw a bone to the alliance or other guildies for a run. That is very common in any MMO game, not just NWO.

    As someone who use to a former guild leader in another game that had a very active guild you need to find a balance to get everyone including those lower geared players through the right content. A 12K player should not be running CR or T9 IMO but at 12 CN - MSPC are good dungeons for these player, especially FBI. Now if you throw into that group 2 17K player FBI is a cake walk as is CN. Hopefully said 12K player can get a very good item out of the chest at the end to turn around for a profit to raise their character IL and eventually over time that 12K player will be 14-16K just enough to get into T9 or CR.

    My biggest issue is I play a variety of character from IL 12-18K and I have no issues on my two character over 17K. I get into content just fine. It is my character below 15K that I run into issues. Even though I know the dungeons and even played them on all of my other character I am not invited even in alliance runs at times because people inspect you and well they just feel like, well he is what I want but I rather get a player with a higher IL.

    The funny thing is that I have tanked the HAMSTER out of CR and I rarely die on my Op or GF. The last 3 times I think I died 1x. Yet other 18K tanks I run with burn through scorlls on the 1st and last boss. Those players will be picked over me just because of IL.

    Elite player don't look at IL, they look at how you play. If a player simply kicks you due to IL than they are not elite, they are simply weak and need to be carried through content.
  • meirami
    meirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I think part of the reason why random queues are so bad isn't that inexperienced players aren't (allowed to be) given advice, but because they seem to rarely understand it. There are many old and some newer guides floating around the web that don't offer the best advice for the current situation, and it feels like new players don't know which mod we're currently at or even understand what to look for in a build. The game's complex, y'all.

    An example:
    Just yesterday I saw a 16.2k GWF with r13s and an Ioun Stone that had two Empowered Runestones for 1700 power each and one Bonding. He also had two +5 Gravestrikers on his character, maybe not realizing that the 1000 power he was getting from them doesn't stack with itself and that just having a paladin or a cleric in the party gives him more than both of those rings combined. He also didn't meet the armor penetration requirement for Tomb of the Nine Gods, which put him barely above the tank in dps and below the other 3.



    I'm really curious why so many dps characters run augments now, even when they are seemingly well-geared otherwise and with high level enchants? It's not that this person could have been just an old returning player that logged in for the first time and queued for REQ, because he had farmed his way to Omu to get those rings.
    Post edited by meirami on
  • jeremytheman232
    jeremytheman232 Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    After failing the final crl boss for the millionth time the queue leader passed me lead and i kicked our dps because he had no scrolls and never used one. Who runs crl without scrolls even as a psop im ready in case a mistake is made. People joined to fill his spot said they knew sword mechanics and didnt..... i think im starting to understand why elitists exist. 1 5hrs all because they didnt want to kick the guy who cost us tons of scrolls and time..... theres gotta be a line. I spent 4hrs once in fbi helping a low group but now im starting to realize im wastinf time and money. I pulled salvage from both end chests and got no drop from strahd. The guy who joined to fill the spot got a coal ward. So we all lost out due to an inexperienced and cheap lazy player......
  • laurylyan
    laurylyan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5 Arc User

    laurylyan said:

    "Elitist" is relative to self-perception.

    Really?

    Yes, @laurylyan . Really.

    Like most self-imposed social concepts like "embarrassment" and "envy", "elitist suppression" is defined by the victim (or self-perceived victim), not the offender.

    If your toon is passed over for a run because it is not perfectly specced/geared for the min/max meta, you have a choice...

    A ) The Victim Path:
    Choose to cry/rage/fume about how evil the person is and how unfair you have been treated. Post a few rants and then cry into your Haagen-Dazs.

    Pros: Short term catharsis and (illusionary) vindication
    Cons: No personal or in-game growth occurs, contraction of your sphere of influence

    B ) The Pragmatist Path
    Accept the feedback objectively, with a grain of salt. This is one biased person's opinion.
    Validate it as true or false by researching the forums. Make useful changes to your build. Or decide the feedback as useless. Block the offender because he/she is clearly has an attitude you don't want to play with anyway.
    Either way, they did you a favor.

    Pros: Personal growth certain, Toon improvement possible, Troll exclusion probable.
    Cons: No rapid adrenaline surge of petty revenge. Requires patiently accepting a perceived slight or insult.

    Guess which path The Took follows. B)


    If you perceive you are excluded from content and demeaned for your gear, IL, playstyle or non-meta build by another player, you will consider them an "elitist".

    So... It is "relative to self-perception" and then you immediately define how others are calling a third party "elitist"?
    Did I miss something here?


    Maybe. The point is Elitist is relative.
    Consider this, @laurylyan . Think of the very first time you ran ToNG.
    If you failed to follow the ToNG Orcus mechanics perfectly the first few times you ran it you probably were offended if another player criticized you for it. Maybe you considered them Elitist.

    But can you swear, after hundreds of ToNGs, you have never been critical of a player who did not do their homework before running with you?
    Never asked a GF why he wasn't marking?
    Never raged at a Orcus ball wipe or RasNisi platform fall or missing Bane or AoC or Exaltation bind or paltry powershare?
    Let he who is without judgement cast the first... uh. Judgement. ;)


    In my ~5 yrs in NW, everyone who is a victim of the above is *just* as likely to flame a new/casual player who LFGs/PUGs into ur run and does not meet your expectations.
    Example, I patiently trained someone to run CR for >2 hours (they killed me >10 times by hitting sisters on chains). Later, when they were running it smoothly they voted to kick anyone who deviated from expectations in any way. If anyone hit sisters on chains they were kicked. "Git Gud."
    Aren't they now "elitist" themselves? Aren't we all at some point?
    *shrug*
    I dunno.

    So... maybe it's a matter of... attitude? Of... maturity? ^o^
    Um... yes. Yes it is. The reality of online life: 12 year-olds have as much power and moral authority as 65year-olds...
    usually more.

    Edit:
    misquoted @chidion .
    Fool of a Took
    Dear @dread4moor,

    Thank you!
    Thank you for proving my point just here and now with you comment! ^o^

    Thank you for assessing that I needed educating in basic psychology and social studies theories, as I - obviously - can't have any notions in any of these domains (or any other domain it would seem), and you - obviously - do. ^o^
    Plus I obviously needed to consider some points which I for sure couldn't have thought of, as you so strongly needed to point them out to me.

    Knowing that notions like "envy", "embarrassment", et al. will be defined differently depending of the school of thought you'll decide to develop and whether it's going to be in psychology, philosophy or social studies, in fact what you say is truly... meaningless, but hey, who am I to dare say that? As I obviously can't have a clue about any of these subjects, or so you seem to have decided...

    Closing the options of choices to only 2 items also shows that by reducing the options, you try to define and control the outcome of the possible answers, hence you're not expanding the debate, but on the contrary try to reduce it to the only possible choice you've decided to be the only one viable, in your opinion. Your opinion being the only valid one, of course.

    And there is so much more to be said about your choice of a signature ( "Fool of a Took" ) which so totally contradicts all you wrote before, and in fact just reveals more than it demeans. "Très parlant !" as we would say in french.

    Simply said: very paternalistic and snobbish... Should I add "elitist" to the list?

    Now, I could analyse your answer to a full extent and write an "essay" in which I would cite the theory of aristotelician determination, social constructivism theories and opposite it to Dabrowski's positive disintegration, at the same time correlate it with so many other theories in different domains, as I may not be as illiterate or uneducated as you may seem to think...
    But, truly, what would be the point?

    I'm here only to play, have some fun with some friends, in my guild and from other guilds, because I like to spend some of my precious free time with them in a game... Plus I don't feel the need to (try to) smother others with big words.

    I may not have reached the canonical wise age of 65, but it's been quite some time I've left the age of 12 far behind me in the dust. ;-)
    Even though I can still act very childishly and enjoy spending (some would say "waste") some time in a game just to have some fun... Considering the average age of the players in Neverwinter, I'd say I'm not alone in that boat ^o^
    So... Yeah! It's really (in my very own and personal opinion) all about attitude and maturity... ;-)

    In fact, your little pun funnily reminded me of this scene in a movie I quite like, for oh so many different reasons!
    https://youtu.be/hIdsjNGCGz4

    To conclude: The worst I wish you is to have loads of fun in-game ^o^

    Yours truly,
    Laurylyan
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    meirami said:

    I think part of the reason why random queues are so bad isn't that inexperienced players aren't (allowed to be) given advice, but because they seem to rarely understand it.

    An example:
    Just yesterday I saw a 16.2k GWF ... He also didn't meet the armor penetration requirement for Tomb of the Nine Gods, which put him barely above the tank in dps and below the other 3.


    My guess for this one is a experienced support player (DC, GF-tact or tank), had a couple +5 gravestalkers in the bank, a hodge-podge of account-bound gear stuffing the bank... threw them all on a barely-70 GWF alt and said:

    "Yeeehah! Come on, you shiny Allure augment. Me a GWF now!"
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    The definition of Elitist in NW is very simple:

    - Any player discriminating against ANY class for any reason for content as long as it doesn't vastly throw off the standard team comp.

    - Any player of any iLvL greater than 1k above the minimum iLvL for content refusing to accept any player at that same 1k above iLvL. For example, CR if a player is 14k+ you have no right to deny them access to a group you publicly post for members, doing so is Elitist, unnecessary and should be an enforceable CoC offense until such time a system is designed to mitigate Overgearing in content.

    - Advertising for experienced only when any player in your group is 2k+ above the minimum iLvL for that content. You are not experienced and could run the content 1000 times and you never will be. You are Brute Forcing the content, not playing it as intended.

    That is Elitism in NW, a sense of false superiority that is in actual fact a mask to hide a near complete lack of skill and a refusal to put forth even basic effort in content.

    Like lower Level PvE areas, Dungeon content needs the addition of a gear/iLvL scaling system or a group based iLvL cap to help combat the practices running rampant in the game.

    For the former; all players stats are forced to an average that reflects an iLvL 1.5k above the minimum while in content, this forces you to learn how to actually play content rather than brute force it.

    For the latter, make it so a group cannot exceed a total iLvL for content that is equal to the minimum iLvL + 2k * 5. Want to run as an 18k? Well you've either just made the rest of your team weaker or you'll be running without a full team, as you should be with that kind of overgearing.

    17-18k players should be 2 manning CR by this point, there is no excuse not to be.
  • meirami
    meirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    > @dread4moor said:
    > My guess for this one is a experienced support player (DC, GF-tact or tank), had a couple +5 gravestalkers in the bank, a hodge-podge of account-bound gear stuffing the bank... threw them all on a barely-70 GWF alt and said:
    >
    > "Yeeehah! Come on, you shiny Allure augment. Me a GWF now!"
    >

    Maybe. He'd be great for power-sharing.
  • kvet
    kvet Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,700 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    tgwolf said:


    For example, CR if a player is 14k+ you have no right to deny them access to a group you publicly post for members, doing so is Elitist, unnecessary and should be an enforceable CoC offense until such time a system is designed to mitigate Overgearing in content.

    So, in spirit, I agree with the other things you said above aside from the part I highlighted. While this behavior isn't very nice, I wouldn't go so far as to say people that do it should have their accounts affected in any way. To me, this is a problem best solved by the community rather than by the police (as it were). There is a place for people to play this way for sure - there's plenty of HDPS or high IL channels available with hundreds or thousands of members, plus plenty of "elite" + "elitist" clans out there for players who are good with that sort of thing to group up. The solution isn't to ban people, the solution is to let them go play the game how they want in such a way as to not actually harm the game community as a whole. Remember, these are a vocal minority of players. Most players that are level 70 (80%) are in the 10K +/- 2K range.

  • mahburg
    mahburg Member Posts: 598 Arc User
    I remember well being a player back in the beginning trying to do dread vault which was lagging badly for me, some Leet dude slagged me off in game chat for standing in the red zones, guess what I could not see them until too late due to lag. Those of us at endgame need to remember what it was like for us back then (loot and boot anyone) and try to show a little humility.

    I concur some players should not be trying to get in to some dungeons, lets be fair though how are they supposed to know? they look at the min I level and queue thinking as they can get in they should. the right approach is to increase the min I level in the game for endgame content. However it seems preferable to have the player base slagging each other off rather than deal with the point in question.

    My two cents.
  • chivonica
    chivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    chidion said:

    So are players being able to enter content with item levels below the minimum required level a common thing?

    From my experience any player with an item level below the minimum required, can't even get into that content... but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

    Common? Probably not. I don't check that often, I don't play end game to care enough. But yes it is possible I checked today on a alt 9.4k for RIQ, dismissed my companion and was able to queue and accept RIQ 9k Min when my alt was only 8.2k without comp summoned. I declined the instance and sent comps away for training, tried to requeue but wasn't allowed as I didn't meet the min reqs. So I think there is a delay in IL update for the queue when comps die and queuing immediately. Maybe there is more to it.

    That wasn't my point though it does tie into it. The players companion died in the instance, not outside, which took his iL down way below the Min iL. Yes iL is bad measurement but a comp can have important stats associated with it depending on progression point. So not only his iL decreased a lot but associated stats too even if he had half decent bonding stones.
    chidion said:

    There are many different ways of offering advice, some more benign than others. Of course there are also players who will take any kind of advice - even the most polite and benign - as an insult too.

    Yes I am not without fault so maybe it came across poorly.
  • meirami
    meirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    Anybody can also queue in and then change their gear even below min ilvl, but people who do that are at least putting on their Sunday bests.
  • chidion
    chidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    chivonica said:

    chidion said:

    So are players being able to enter content with item levels below the minimum required level a common thing?

    From my experience any player with an item level below the minimum required, can't even get into that content... but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

    Common? Probably not. I don't check that often, I don't play end game to care enough. But yes it is possible I checked today on a alt 9.4k for RIQ, dismissed my companion and was able to queue and accept RIQ 9k Min when my alt was only 8.2k without comp summoned. I declined the instance and sent comps away for training, tried to requeue but wasn't allowed as I didn't meet the min reqs. So I think there is a delay in IL update for the queue when comps die and queuing immediately. Maybe there is more to it.
    My point here was if the game developers set the minimum level for any character to enter content at 8K, then any player 8K and above should be allowed to run that content.

    However perhaps you've stumbled upon a problem with programming not playstyle. If a player's character meets the minimum requirements to enter content with a certain companion - but falls below the minimum requirements should their companion die and we all know they sometimes do, then that player's character obviously does not meet the minimum requirements to run that content - at least not without the additional augment to their item level the companions provide.

    IMO a character below the minimum required level without a companion's augmentation should not be running high level content simply because their character's item level does not meet the minimum requirements.

    Certainly something to consider...

  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    > @laurylyan said:
    ...
    As I obviously can't have a clue about any of these subjects, or so you seem to have decided...
    >
    >...you try to define and control the outcome of the possible answers.
    ... Your opinion being the only valid one, of course.
    >
    > And there is so much more to be said about your choice of a signature ( "Fool of a Took" ) which so totally contradicts all you wrote before, and in fact just reveals more than it demeans. "Très parlant !" as we would say in french.
    > Simply said: very paternalistic and snobbish... Should I add "elitist" to the list?
    > Now, I could analyse your answer to a full extent and write an "essay" ...
    ... [essay]
    >... Plus I don't feel the need to (try to) smother others with big words...
    > To conclude: The worst I wish you is to have loads of fun in-game ^o^
    > Yours truly,
    > Laurylyan

    très magnifique! 😅
    Cela m'a vraiment fait rire.😆
    Merci.
    Lower your defence stat, dude. You're above the cap.
    "Fool of a Took" referred to myself.
    I am Took.
    It's called "self-depricating humor".

    I will ignore your ad hominems (see option "B" above) and objectively reply to the only on-topic point in your essay.

    Clearly expressing a dissenting opinion is no more or less snobbish then being honest about who you choose to play with.

    For example:
    I have no problem with those you call "elitists" who LFG "17k+, exp only, must have [iBiS gear]".
    I don't rage, call them elitist or flame post them. They were honest about their expectations Also, they did me a favor. I don't want to play with anyone so restrictive, even on my 17k toon with BiS gear.

    The flipside of that, if someone with <15k asks to join my party I might ask them to fill a specific role (eg. GF Tank running KV).
    If they insist on full DPS Conqueror, I politely say it's not a good fit.
    Perhaps from their perspective that makes me elitist.
    See?
    It's all relative, mon amie.
    😎
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.