Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?" If you run only one class in this game I can try to understand those upset player. But tbh it is hard, since I also see all those other classes running arround in PE. TI was changed in mod..8-9? pretty sloppy and without much thought right at the start, it was only a question of time when this changes will be reverted. We could argue about other solution, wich all end at one point. How do I end one class being double-meta in two paragons at the same time and how do I get other classes into game again. There are other option, but every change will end in a nerf of buffs, overperforming compared to other classes, consequently compensated with dps wich could be a target for DO DC. If you compare a DO-DC a templock a mof and a Hunter you will understand where this is heading for. I personally think this is not the end of downgrading mega-buffs like ITF (nerfed), HG (nerfed), TI (nerfed), BtS (nerfed), FF(nerfed) in the name of balance, next might be powersahring again. But am I salty being nerfed or balanced with my DC ? No, I addept and honestly the class is still two times better than others in terms of buffs, if you double daily 3 times better.
This company started balancing and nerfing stuff >2 years ago and stopped in process, maybe due to low menpower. They nerfed and fixed many stuff since then, otherwise this game would be in the trashcan allready. It is a pretty normal process.
Btw I also would be fine if AC was nerfed and DO got the cake and AC drops of, being no meta or asked for any more, I don´t care, I simply switch loadouts, done. As a DO it is far easier to keep up my buffs correctly all the time, so being lazy that would have been my choice. But my genaral setup ingame would not change being DO or AC: buff, debuff, protection, some heals, the faster the better. Dealing dps in a one-DC-setup? Why? To be max. effective as the only DC I would have to run AP-regen (virtous) or divinty-gain (faithfull), I would have to run HG+DG+BtS and another encounter of choice (PoD at bosses) all the time. I would have to use TI + Hastening Light. I would have to be the buffbot for that one dps, so why on earth should I focus on dps, since if I would, my effectiveness was worse and group-dps goes down for a small personal dps-boost.
Now we got AC being the buffbot and DO being the dps paragon, maybe the company follows a target, maybe they did put some thoughts into it.Maybe in the end we get back to a more healthy tank-leader-3dps setup, i am fine going that route. Maybe a dps DC will find his niche in there, maybe not. The only reason why DO-DC's can focus on dps sometimes is having another AC/DC in the group who AP regens, encounter resets, eDG´s etc. Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited September 2018
Please, everyone, stop the personal attacks, and the arguing about "nerf AC too". It will just lead to the developers ignoring this thread as a pointless flame war.
Let's focus on the real issues here.
The "meta" has changed many times in the past, as has the "optimal" way to play a DC. Remember when the only DC that was wanted was the "Hastebot"? Remember when you had to have the High Prophet set to be considered good...or going a long way back, when you "had" to have the Miracle Healer set ?
What is happening now is the following: The developers have decided that the "2DC meta" is a "bad thing". Instead of solving it properly (as I have suggested before, just making TI and AA mutually exclusive would have done the trick), they decided to completely kill DOs viability for groups as a primary buffer.
This does not mean DO DCs are entirely useless. A high-Crit, high-ArPen DO build is pretty good for solo play. Get your Exalted Primal weapons and a Dread enchant and just go and melt things. For groups, however, a DO will just not be comparable to an AC.
I expect the new "meta" to be
Primary DPS, GWF or HR - TRs need not apply.
OP - superior to GFs.
AC DC, using AA, BtS, DG and Exalt... also casting HG when possible.
SW, Temptation of course.
MoF CW or the new buffer class being introduced "soon".
A DO might find a "charity" spot in guild runs or if a group is unable to find a SW/CW, but that's about it. Still, DCs are not as badly off as the TRs, who will not be wanted for PvE at all, or the GFs who will be totally pushed aside by the OPs.
Now what bothers me about this is that DCs were in a good place, with two viable "end-game" builds, but now one of them is effectively being killed. This is also a problem for low-geared DCs...say, with an IL of 13-14K. They could contribute to an "end-game" group, as their buffs were largely independent of IL, but that's not the case for AC builds. AC DCs will be in a similar position as GWFs are now....not wanted unless they are 16K+.
Personally, I like DO - I have a DO DC with an IL of "almost" 18K (well, 17996), with over 5000 hours of playtime behind her. I also have a semi-decent AC build, (17.1K IL, 49K Power, Unparalelled Frost etc), which I occasionally use, in particular for weaker groups having problems at the second or third boss in ToNG if I was the only DC. However, switching from DO to AC is not simple or cheap....the power-sharing AC build is one of the most gear demanding (and expensive) in the game.
The bottom line for me is that I find it highly demotivating and disappointing to first give DCs two viable paragon paths and then just take one of them away. This, combined with the Profession and Salvage changes is why number of players will either take a break or abandon the game if those changes go live as they currently are.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?" If you run only one class in this game I can try to understand those upset player. But tbh it is hard, since I also see all those other classes running arround in PE. TI was changed in mod..8-9? pretty sloppy and without much thought right at the start, it was only a question of time when this changes will be reverted. We could argue about other solution, wich all end at one point. How do I end one class being double-meta in two paragons at the same time and how do I get other classes into game again. There are other option, but every change will end in a nerf of buffs, overperforming compared to other classes, consequently compensated with dps wich could be a target for DO DC. If you compare a DO-DC a templock a mof and a Hunter you will understand where this is heading for. I personally think this is not the end of downgrading mega-buffs like ITF (nerfed), HG (nerfed), TI (nerfed), BtS (nerfed), FF(nerfed) in the name of balance, next might be powersahring again. But am I salty being nerfed or balanced with my DC ? No, I addept and honestly the class is still two times better than others in terms of buffs, if you double daily 3 times better.
This company started balancing and nerfing stuff >2 years ago and stopped in process, maybe due to low menpower. They nerfed and fixed many stuff since then, otherwise this game would be in the trashcan allready. It is a pretty normal process.
Btw I also would be fine if AC was nerfed and DO got the cake and AC drops of, being no meta or asked for any more, I don´t care, I simply switch loadouts, done. As a DO it is far easier to keep up my buffs correctly all the time, so being lazy that would have been my choice. But my genaral setup ingame would not change being DO or AC: buff, debuff, protection, some heals, the faster the better. Dealing dps in a one-DC-setup? Why? To be max. effective as the only DC I would have to run AP-regen (virtous) or divinty-gain (faithfull), I would have to run HG+DG+BtS and another encounter of choice (PoD at bosses) all the time. I would have to use TI + Hastening Light. I would have to be the buffbot for that one dps, so why on earth should I focus on dps, since if I would, my effectiveness was worse and group-dps goes down for a small personal dps-boost.
Now we got AC being the buffbot and DO being the dps paragon, maybe the company follows a target, maybe they did put some thoughts into it.Maybe in the end we get back to a more healthy tank-leader-3dps setup, i am fine going that route. Maybe a dps DC will find his niche in there, maybe not. The only reason why DO-DC's can focus on dps sometimes is having another AC/DC in the group who AP regens, encounter resets, eDG´s etc. Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
I can not speak of right now. However. I did do ToNG every day when we got to it. 5, 6 10 times a day. I am going to be very honest about it. If i played a DOi always had an AC Cleric i know and we are good in a combo to go with me, completing each other. If i play AC i knew i can count on good DO's on my friend list, who if where not in dungeons would be willing to go with me and i knew i could count on them. Is that bad? Idk. It worked for me.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
One reason you see more calls for an AC is that it is much easier to find a DO, as they can be useful at a lower IL. So, a 2-DC group usually find a DO fairly easily and then struggle for a while spamming the channels to find an AC.
For a single DC group, it really does not matter for a strong group whether you have a DO or AC - you can finish Tong in <20 minutes with either - however, for a non-BiS group, the AC is a safer bet, in particular to the immunity it can grant - and this is in particular an issue at the second and third boss. I do prefer DO at first boss, in particular as I usually am on "ball duty", and it is somewhat hard to keep AA up 100% if I'm running around chasing the balls.
Hoping for improvements...
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
That's really just a part of a bigger problem. Why give every class two paragons when only one is relevant (or, for that matter, why three feat treas, when only one or two are considered viable)
The DCs were in a good place with both paragons viable - now that's no longer the case.
AC DC, using AA, BtS, DG and Exalt... also casting HG when possible.
SW, Temptation of course.
MoF CW or the new buffer class being introduced "soon".
I expect the meta to be:
devoOP + GF (dps) + AC /DC + templock + mof/hunter/tact GF because devo banes dps x1.1 x1.1 x1.1
If you take a prot over devo you get some more powerbuff but not that much to outshine 3x bane mulitplier 1.1, more common will be your choice maybe due to the lack of good dps GF and devo pally.
But even if you run devo OP, tact GF, AC/DC, temp/mof/buffhunter (similar buff (x1.4) than temp and consistent debuff 35%) and a dps, your damage output should be higher. Tact GF can stack buffs 35-40% (double inspiring leader) and debuffs for 18% (CP+mark), guess 26% as a IV tactitian, and push AP gain significant plus spending a huge ammount of mitigation 55-65% (marked target). 3xbane on boss and dps is the stronger choice i think .... in case you got a top dps. In case your dps is meh that won´t work and you get back to your: Prot, AC, templock, mof/hunter/tactGF + dps.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
That's really just a part of a bigger problem. Why give every class two paragons when only one is relevant (or, for that matter, why three feat treas, when only one or two are considered viable)
The DCs were in a good place with both paragons viable - now that's no longer the case.
As far as I know the average group got 5 spots. We got DC, OP, GF, Hunter, SW, CW, TR, GWF -> 8 classes. If you have one class that throws his towels on beach chair N° 1 and N° 2 right from the start, you got 7 classes left to fight for the remaining 3 spots, that´s all we talk about atm. You simply can´t provide every paragon and path to be meta, impossible. You can chose to run a setup beside the meta and play with friends , have fun etc., but you can´t expect the average underperforming lazy dude in chat, looking for a meta setup, to accept your choice.
And to get back on topic, in case a 11k DO DC outshines a 18k devo OP in terms of buffs/debuffs, no need for boons etc., and if the class , looking at buffs/debuffs, is same effective no matter if 11 or 18k , there is a problem about that class. This problem could be solved only by downgrading buffs and upgrading dps, and that counts for almost all classes in general, same for templock, same for tact GF same for renemof, not sure about that buffhunter.
Near all actual problems have the same origin, too powerfull buffs combined with 1 hard hiting dps = easy win. No need to care about anything else than being a buffbot. Some classes got downgraded in terms of buffs over the years, some upgraded (templock), wich in the sum is maybe good for the class, but bad for the game in my eyes.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
I mean, yeah, who cares about multiple builds of a class being workable? Why should all the options be playable and not traps? Sure there's 6 ways to build a TR and only one works, but that's perfectly OK, right? They're reducing DC from 4 viable builds (6 counting PVP) to one, but at least there's still one viable build so everyone saying "uh, this is a bad change" is just whining, right?
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
As far as I know the average group got 5 spots. We got DC, OP, GF, Hunter, SW, CW, TR, GWF -> 8 classes. If you have one class that throws his towels on beach chair N° 1 and N° 2 right from the start, you got 7 classes left to fight for the remaining 3 spots, that´s all we talk about atm.
Don't twist my words. I'm not saying that groups should have have two different paragons of the same class at the same time. What I am saying is that I would llike multiple paragons/feat-tree builds for every class to be viable.
I mean, OPs have a "Devo" and "Prot" build which are both perfectly viable - sure, one may work better than the other, depending on other classes in the party, or even the content - but they both have their uses. My complaint regarding the DC is that they used to have two very different builds which were viable for end-game content (the fact that some groups preferred one of each is a separate issue, which could have been solved otherwise), but now there is only a single "viable" one.
You could do content like ToNG easily with a single DC, and it really ddin't matter that much whether it was a DO or AC ... now a single DC group will be an AC - nobody will want a single DO - that's what I mean by "not viable".
Of course, other classes have had to deal with this - there are paragons or feat trees for every class that nobody really likes, and to me that is a problem....I would like every class to have multiple viable builds.
As far as I know the average group got 5 spots. We got DC, OP, GF, Hunter, SW, CW, TR, GWF -> 8 classes. If you have one class that throws his towels on beach chair N° 1 and N° 2 right from the start, you got 7 classes left to fight for the remaining 3 spots, that´s all we talk about atm.
Don't twist my words. I'm not saying that groups should have have two different paragons of the same class at the same time. What I am saying is that I would llike multiple paragons/feat-tree builds for every class to be viable.
I mean, OPs have a "Devo" and "Prot" build which are both perfectly viable - sure, one may work better than the other, depending on other classes in the party, or even the content - but they both have their uses. My complaint regarding the DC is that they used to have two very different builds which were viable for end-game content (the fact that some groups preferred one of each is a separate issue, which could have been solved otherwise), but now there is only a single "viable" one.
You could do content like ToNG easily with a single DC, and it really ddin't matter that much whether it was a DO or AC ... now a single DC group will be an AC - nobody will want a single DO - that's what I mean by "not viable".
Of course, other classes have had to deal with this - there are paragons or feat trees for every class that nobody really likes, and to me that is a problem....I would like every class to have multiple viable builds.
There would have been better soulutions maybe. Actually I run AC rightous, Do rightous in PVE and AC or DO faithfull in PVP, 4 builds active on my side.
After that nerf I may run dps DO solo and in lower dungeon (random/daily), AC-rightous only in endcontent, AC faithfull in PVP and mayby also DO faithfull or rightous in PVP, depends on: Piercing Light: Armor Penetration increased to 4/8/12/16/20% (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) Avatar of the Divine (Reworked): The first power you use after entering combat grants you Avatar for 20 seconds, you also gain this effect every 45 seconds in combat. Avatar increases your damage dealt by 50%, Divinity Generation by 25%, and Cooldown Speed by 25%. Leaving combat cancels Avatar and resets its cooldown. Casting encounters will reduce the cooldown time of Avatar by 1.5 seconds for each stack of Empowered consumed
If every path and paragon would be meta or compatible with endcontent it would be a perfect mmo world. Not at your adress @adinosii , but no matter wich threat or class i look up, complaints near everywhere. Some complain even without having ever entered preview once in their live. Some clomplain about classes they even don´t understand or know. Some are only and exclusively interested in their class and only in their class, forgetting that this is a mmorpg with a wide spread of classes to play.
Balance is needed. To prevent two paragons having the same role, synergizing like DC´s did for the last...4 years being meta (and still is meta!), and give that class more options in endcontent, you need to give classes two different roles in general. some classes got different roles that are viable actually, some not
Tank/support-leader - OP, both asked for in endcontent Dps/Tank -GF, both asked for in endcontent dps/support Hunter, both asked for in endcontent dps/support warlock, temp asked in endcontent dps/support CW, only mof asked for dps/... TR dps/.... GWF Support/... DC
So if GWF get´s a tank ability ability, TR support and DC a dps role, things would be solved to some degree.
The main goals that we had for Devoted Cleric in this patch were to fix their divinity generation by smoothing it out and making it a bit more clear and to, once again, hit the "2DC meta".
Snip
If you are going to change the DC class to avoid the 2DC meta (outdated meta, new meta is 4x buff 1x DPS), then you need to balance the nerfs between AC and DO. Nerfing one into the ground while leaving the other completely untouched is sloppy and disrespectful to your playerbase.
AC DC, using AA, BtS, DG and Exalt... also casting HG when possible.
SW, Temptation of course.
MoF CW or the new buffer class being introduced "soon".
I expect the meta to be:
devoOP + GF (dps) + AC /DC + templock + mof/hunter/tact GF because devo banes dps x1.1 x1.1 x1.1
If you take a prot over devo you get some more powerbuff but not that much to outshine 3x bane mulitplier 1.1, more common will be your choice maybe due to the lack of good dps GF and devo pally.
But even if you run devo OP, tact GF, AC/DC, temp/mof/buffhunter (similar buff (x1.4) than temp and consistent debuff 35%) and a dps, your damage output should be higher. Tact GF can stack buffs 35-40% (double inspiring leader) and debuffs for 18% (CP+mark), guess 26% as a IV tactitian, and push AP gain significant plus spending a huge ammount of mitigation 55-65% (marked target). 3xbane on boss and dps is the stronger choice i think .... in case you got a top dps. In case your dps is meh that won´t work and you get back to your: Prot, AC, templock, mof/hunter/tactGF + dps.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
That's really just a part of a bigger problem. Why give every class two paragons when only one is relevant (or, for that matter, why three feat treas, when only one or two are considered viable)
The DCs were in a good place with both paragons viable - now that's no longer the case.
As far as I know the average group got 5 spots. We got DC, OP, GF, Hunter, SW, CW, TR, GWF -> 8 classes. If you have one class that throws his towels on beach chair N° 1 and N° 2 right from the start, you got 7 classes left to fight for the remaining 3 spots, that´s all we talk about atm. You simply can´t provide every paragon and path to be meta, impossible. You can chose to run a setup beside the meta and play with friends , have fun etc., but you can´t expect the average underperforming lazy dude in chat, looking for a meta setup, to accept your choice.
And to get back on topic, in case a 11k DO DC outshines a 18k devo OP in terms of buffs/debuffs, no need for boons etc., and if the class , looking at buffs/debuffs, is same effective no matter if 11 or 18k , there is a problem about that class. This problem could be solved only by downgrading buffs and upgrading dps, and that counts for almost all classes in general, same for templock, same for tact GF same for renemof, not sure about that buffhunter.
Near all actual problems have the same origin, too powerfull buffs combined with 1 hard hiting dps = easy win. No need to care about anything else than being a buffbot. Some classes got downgraded in terms of buffs over the years, some upgraded (templock), wich in the sum is maybe good for the class, but bad for the game in my eyes.
Removing Double Empowerment isn't going to affect AC rotation but it will obviously decrease the amount of buffing.
I dunno. is it really possible with that set up to get an empowered bts out every 8 seconds as well as an empowered exhalt? I don't know if BOB casts faster than brand but on top of trying to keep up aa it just seems like there isn't time for all of the things. I know it seems like in the dual runs I do I almost never see empowered ff's go out. I'm not the best ac in teh world *and by that I mean I might be the worst hehe* but with the difficulty of aiming on a particular person in group content. (talking console where we can't program anything) it also seems like exhalt is hit or miss literally. you think you've got it on someone and whoooops there it goes to the other dc. lol. but if its a choice between the two of them. ( and just given my experience watching other acs this seems to be the case. As in what actually happens in a run not what is supposed to happen in a run) it seems like BTS should win between the two
Empowering both BTS and Exalt isn't really possible. The reason it can be done with FF is a glitch. Removing FF means one encounter get empowered, not two. The rotation won't change but double empowerment goes away, meaning less buffing.
Blessing of Battle is painfully slow to cast, much slower than Brand. According to the guides Ive seen it has the best Divinity generation currently, but it feels like it takes forever with the animation that it has.
Unless your timing is perfect, it is likely to have some rotations with less than full empowerment, especially in longer fights.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I'm ok with TI getting a rework. As a passive, it's staggeringly powerful as is.
That being said, removing any and all benefit to the group is too much.
Perhaps a couple of alternatives could be explored? Here's a couple: 1. When the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2/4/6/8/10%* more damage from all sources 2. Each time the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2%* more damage from all sources (max. 5 stacks) * = all numbers subject to change
This encourages the DO DC to be active in engaging enemies, and takes away the passive nature of the buff. It also still lets the DO DC bring something to group play, without being a 'must-have'. It will add more damage, but won't be an overwhelmingly BiS addition - so you *could* bring a second DC just for TI, but it won't be a make-or-break addition (i.e. taking a Devo OP or Templock would be fine, and in some cases, a more wanted option).
I don't understand Cryptic's hatred of being able to have 2 DCs in dungeons. You buffed Templock, which was nice. But you don't have to pull down classes to buff other classes.
How can you not understand? Every CR I've done has been with 2 DCs. Having 2 out of 5 slots in endgame dungeons always taken up by 2 DCs is bad for everyone else. It's been awesome for my DC for the last year or so, but I think the only reason why this situation could be tolerated by other classes as long as it has is because it is so easy in this game to have multiple near bis characters. Leveling takes very little time, you can move enchants and campaign completion bundle costs less than a legendary mount.
I'm ok with TI getting a rework. As a passive, it's staggeringly powerful as is.
That being said, removing any and all benefit to the group is too much.
Perhaps a couple of alternatives could be explored? Here's a couple: 1. When the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2/4/6/8/10%* more damage from all sources 2. Each time the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2%* more damage from all sources (max. 5 stacks) * = all numbers subject to change
This encourages the DO DC to be active in engaging enemies, and takes away the passive nature of the buff. It also still lets the DO DC bring something to group play, without being a 'must-have'. It will add more damage, but won't be an overwhelmingly BiS addition - so you *could* bring a second DC just for TI, but it won't be a make-or-break addition (i.e. taking a Devo OP or Templock would be fine, and in some cases, a more wanted option).
I think what you propose would be debuffs? And devs initial proposal was to give TI debuff (25% personal buff, 10% debuff). Actually when I think about it devs proposal is absurd..to have one passive power giving 25% personal buff and 10% debuff? Outside of debate how it affects DC DO etc having just one power giving so much for nothing is even worse than what we have now (20% group buff while standing still). Like I said previously - don't nerf it but try to connect it somehow with gear and skill progression. I prefer playing DC AC but I don't want to have only one path to play in end game.
I don't understand Cryptic's hatred of being able to have 2 DCs in dungeons. You buffed Templock, which was nice. But you don't have to pull down classes to buff other classes.
How can you not understand? Every CR I've done has been with 2 DCs. Having 2 out of 5 slots in endgame dungeons always taken up by 2 DCs is bad for everyone else. It's been awesome for my DC for the last year or so, but I think the only reason why this situation could be tolerated by other classes as long as it has is because it is so easy in this game to have multiple near bis characters. Leveling takes very little time, you can move enchants and campaign completion bundle costs less than a legendary mount.
I did 30 CRs and only once with 2DC. So it's anecdotal evidence but 2xDC meta wasn't problem lately (more like 4 buffers 1 dps meta). I think we don't need big nerfs but tweaks and little revamps :P Or change how buffs work (additive vs multiplitive)
I dont know guys. Playin NWO since M5. This game is still open beta or something. You cant build character and chill after. Always will be strange things. I`m rly like playin DO.
But this news really upset me. The oracle becomes unnecessary after level 70. Manual selection in the party will ALWAYS look for a more share-oriented character than the selection of a solo-based character (as one more dps).
But when newbie player come here pick a character, pick a paragon, play several times, get a half times a kick from DG. What they will do? Yeah, he or she will google and ask other players what`s wrong.
And then, will ask a question: Why do developers bring into the game obviously sad options?.. The options that MAKE the user to endure and EVEN PAY for IT.
I understand that this is just a way to fill a cell into gear loadout for solo quest. And it's terrible.
Create 2 paragons with 3 branches each, and only 1 of which has the right to life, because all the rest do not fit into the content created by the SAME DEVELOPERS
P.S.
I admit that the current news about my favorite DC paragon could be a shock to me.
> Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.
>
> We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.
It's not about nerfing both. but giving a option to tweak a path that has a more powerful buff at end game and to make The do/ac buffs not stack.
The dev's nerfed bonding stone's because of power creep( they say anyway) but put more power out with gear and higher enchants.Then ac dc's and op's mutiply this through powershare. Dosen't make much since does it.
Now why not make AA put out a 10% dmg buff with cc imun instead of powershare. Then you also give ac dc alot more freedom with gear choice and not just picking things that give the most base power to share.
The dev's are gonna do what they want to do.I have already been looking at other classes because I'm not going back to ac. So if/when the changes take place I will walk away from dc altogether. If I'm going to start over I'll do it with a toon I enjoy playing or find something else to play time will tell.
It really is poor form that a DO is a attacking an AC: infighting within a class!
The option to spec with loadouts means that AC is within your capability, even though it does require a bit more investment with gear.
And you say you are going to change classes - what with an investment in gear anyway!? Can you not detect that irony?
One does not need to be a maximal powersharer to benefit with AC. The premise of having rank 14 radiants and all power gear/artifacts is not a necessity to being a good AC. Correct choice of powers, feats, boons, rotations are what is required. It will require learning, but does that mean it is inconceivably difficult (or off putting?) that you are going to ditch a class?
because the play style and purpose of an ac is entirely different than a do. if you have to buy all new gear you might as well pick a play style closer to the do, no? Also nearly any other class in the game is going to be cheaper than an ac to gear up for if you were already a Do because you can at least take your enchants with you. you have to start entirely from scratch if you want to be an ac from do.
ac's and do's are both dcs but they're as different as night and day. nuking one and leaving the other intact is not ok.
I play both DO and AC. And I do not see them as night and day. In fact, more of my personal play time is a DO, whereas in parties I mix the two depending on what part of the dungeon I am running, or if there is another cleric (usually in 10-person content). To me, as I have played them both, I see them as two powerful sides of a DC, and no, I do not have two sets of gear for both. That is not necessary, unless you are with a group that is very picky on having BiS toons. The Mod 15 changes will not change my preference for a DO in certain instances, in fact, they are being personally strengthened. Solo play will be better for them. Avatar changes will benefit both.
A DO is a buffer primarily. In Mod 14, they stand around and give everyone a flat +20% damage buff with TI. Depending if they are the 2nd DC, they probably also use BtS (which isn't gonna be changed). They will give out HG regardless and that won't be changing.
What else plays similarly to a DO? A templock? Sure they can heal more, but healing was never in the DO's primary contribution to the party. What other class can add damage buffs more easily than a DO can now? An OP? They play completely differently as well.
The main difference I see with a DO and an AC in terms of enchants is the addition of critical strike to the DO's arsenal, so maybe slotting Brutals instead of Radiants. On your character, you probably have about 8 offensive slots, so the difference in power between all Radiants vs Brutals at rank 14 is: 8 x 400 = 3200 power. With most gear, the AC will prioritise power, but a DO would also benefit from power, but might lean towards more crit. The differential between gear would be ~1000-4000 power? And looking at artifacts, a DO would still benefit from power, so I do not think they would have less power here than an AC. If perhaps an AC would have 2000 more power from artifacts, you're looking at maybe an 7000-9000 power differential between the two paragon paths on average at near end-game.
Does 7000-9000 power make such a huge difference to buffing capability between a DO-geared cleric vs an AC-geared cleric? Say we take the midpoint, with 8000 power being an average difference between a DO-geared vs AC-geared DC. Blessing of Battle shares 15% of power, and AA provides 33% of power. So the differential of powersharing would be around 4000 power. If a player is already achieving about 100-150k power with an OP in a group, would that difference of 4000 power be that much?
At 100k power, an additional 4000 power adds 2.8% DPS increase (see: here for calculation). If your team mates have Legendary Pets with rank 14 Bondings, they also share about x3 power of this powershare, so an additional 12000 power or an 8.5% DPS increase, all up about an 11.4% DPS difference. At 150k power, this is an 8.4% DPS increase; at 200k power this is a 6.7% DPS increase. Again this depends on your party members having a legendary companion with rank 14 bondings, which is not always the case in random queues or PUGs - but if you primarily play with pre-mades anyway, even now in mod 14, an AC would probably be more effective than a DO with TI giving the flat damage buff.
So if the flat damage buff is removed, you might be seeing around a difference of 5-10% DPS difference between an AC vs DO geared cleric, both running AC specs in Mod 15. This would likely be less in RQ/PUG groups if the companions are not optimised.
The DO DC will still have a place in providing 100% HG uptime and at the start of battle. But they can always spec to AC without really needing a massive change in gear/items. In order to play an AC effectively, you just need to hit your daily AA button at the start of battle encompassing all the companions/players. The rotation will be somewhat similar to a DO DC as FF now no longer gives damage buffs. Learning to exalt is not that hard. I do not think learning how to use a daily at the start of combat (DO's use HG at the start anyway) and learning how to exalt makes a massive leap in playstyle between an AC and DO. (Note: exalting without keybinds (if you are on console) is like using the Wheel of Fire buff on a party member - they need to be somewhat separated from the group and you need line of sight. That's fairly simple to get the hang of with practice).
As I mentioned above, I play both AC and DO depending on the party needs, and even though I am reaching an optimised AC-geared cleric (preferencing power over crit), my DO still does very nice damage in a party, sometimes getting 4th or 5th DPS in CODG, and 2-3rd DPS in CR.
Just my opinion, but I do not see how that makes the DO "nuked" to the ground. If anything the TI buff to personal damage will make the DO an interesting buffer/secondary DPS in the coming mod. It will make it more fun for soloing for sure.
I'm not sure if you are joking and because I'm not native english I dont't get it. You play AC and DO? After your writing I doubt it. A pure AC is completly different build up than a DO.
One quick hint: Companions - how much do they cost to chance? Get it? Artifact - Do plays totally wrong ones - you know
Maybe your an undergeard DC who don't know anything about high end DC's but the DO changes kill the DO forever and rebuild to AC is massive investement I'm not willing to do.
With the changes of DO you don't want to have a DO in the Party and if in random groups the t9 cr pops and you aree DO DC the group will quit!
Instead of a DODC you bring in a MOF - hes much better at DPS (especially with all the CW changes) and overall much better than a DO.
With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.
Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.
But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.
I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
as far as the difference in enchantments. a dedicated do looks different than one or two different enchants. the companion on a ac should be all silvery. a do is going to be azures and ruthless and gigantic. with more of the same on the person.
While a DO DC would likely slot azures or ruthless, why can't an AC DC benefit from this too? Swapping to an AC loadout even with DO-optimised gear would not make the AC DC suboptimal, unless you were min-maxing or are with a party which only demands BiS toons, which would be unfortunate. No one should be dictating what you should have/wear when speccing to either build.
you give the answer yourself. You want to be the best you min max and thats why you can't change the DC's. If you are fine to play an AC with 40k basepower - sure you can do but in group runs maybe you are not first choice........
With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.
Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.
But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.
I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.
Even in Mod 14 as it stands, many groups look for an AC when filling their party slot in a 5-man party, so this won't change in Mod 15.
10-person content will still want an AC and a DO in their party so that won't change.
If you RQ, a DO DC will still provide HG + BtS (30+21% damage) to the party. An AC DC (unless at very practiced levels) does not routinely add HG to their rotation. And in RQ/PUGs a DO DC will often be a strong DPS char (and made relatively stronger now that TI is a personal 25% buff and Avatar is buffed).
100% HG and BtS, is what, a 50% DPS increase that can be provided by which other class? An OP maybe? But they don't have the DPS output as a DO DC. A templock? Not nearly as much buffing, but they heal more (it's a funny compromise they made with that). The DO DC will still likely have weapons of light anyway, so will still contribute this as powersharing. So no, in my view, a DO DC will still be effective. If an RQ party kicks a DC for not playing AC, then they've got problems.
game. what they have proposed WILL kill the do in parties.
acs will no longer do ff and exhalt. they will be doing bts. with the change in rotation I'm guessing it won't be as hard to keep up hg either. we can do bts and hg still but it won't be needed.
Over-dramatic and hysterical.
lol you are only saying that because you mostly play as ac and it won't affect you. you are the one resorting to personal attacks here not me. and I'm guessing because I dared suggest they take a look at powershare LOL but what I said IS the truth.
all I want is for the do to remain a viable option going forward. right now it's not going to be. it needs to be equal to ac to remain viable. otherwise ANY Other class than us will be chosen.
Read the threat and check your options to get to the result that DO DC still can act as a supporter/dps , that´s what you prefer to do, go for it. You want to be meta-one click to do so, stop being childish please.
more name calling. check yourself please!
and the do can still act as support yes but they won't be called upon to do that because EVERY other support class is now better. LOL. the ac will be able to do everything we can do.
You can run AC-DO-OP- and still be equal or better in terms of buffs/debuffs than other combos simply by debuffing 37% and buffing 35%, on top encounter reset plus mititgation buffs, nothing those other classes provide on top. Templock, mof , hunter are similar range. Check your options and stop being childish please.
you can run anything - but if you want to have fast good runs replace the DO with a mof or a templock. With the cw changes a mof cw is so much better than the killed DO noone who has any clue will invite a DO dc.
Can you explain why a CR group with an AC dc should invite a DODC? a changed one?
what fgroup wouzld you run?
OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / MOF / GWF OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / DODC / GWF
which one will be the better group after the changes?
With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.
Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.
But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.
I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.
Even in Mod 14 as it stands, many groups look for an AC when filling their party slot in a 5-man party, so this won't change in Mod 15.
10-person content will still want an AC and a DO in their party so that won't change.
If you RQ, a DO DC will still provide HG + BtS (30+21% damage) to the party. An AC DC (unless at very practiced levels) does not routinely add HG to their rotation. And in RQ/PUGs a DO DC will often be a strong DPS char (and made relatively stronger now that TI is a personal 25% buff and Avatar is buffed).
100% HG and BtS, is what, a 50% DPS increase that can be provided by which other class? An OP maybe? But they don't have the DPS output as a DO DC. A templock? Not nearly as much buffing, but they heal more (it's a funny compromise they made with that). The DO DC will still likely have weapons of light anyway, so will still contribute this as powersharing. So no, in my view, a DO DC will still be effective. If an RQ party kicks a DC for not playing AC, then they've got problems.
the buffs they give us are not going to make us strong dps. LOL. we are still the weakest of any dps class inthe game. we already get buffs from ti. they're just adding a tiny bit more. yeah we'll be able to load into random que and get kicked. no party will ask for us. we are not as strong as the ac path will be. there is no reason we should not be equal to an ac if built right going forward. the stance you are taking is that the ac is better than do and should remain so. I disagree with that. they are two paths and both should be valid and relevant to end game. what they have proposed WILL kill the do in parties.
acs will no longer do ff and exhalt. they will be doing bts. with the change in rotation I'm guessing it won't be as hard to keep up hg either. we can do bts and hg still but it won't be needed.
they are worried about power creep they should be addressing that instead of killing the do.
No, I am not saying the AC is more powerful than the DO.
I have written down that I use both builds.
You are asking for a nerf for the AC, so that what, the DO can be better? That doesn't make any sense to me. They are both part of the same class. I am saying that a DO can also be an AC, and they do not play like night and day (I play BOTH), and that DO is not getting "nuked".
but going forward the do IS nuked. it will not be viable in group content. ppl will not ask for it in parties. the ac will be more powerful. by A LOT. and they do play day and night. I agree that TI was too powerful passively. but they should just make us have to build for it. other than that the classes were pretty equal. but very very different. If you don't see how different they are I'm going to have to guess you probably weren't playing at least one of them correctly lol
Playing "correctly", to whom? To your end-game party compositions, that to me, sound elitist and counterproductive.
WTF? Are you serious? and end game DC play with endgame partys - thats the normal way it should be.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.
Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.
But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.
I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.
Even in Mod 14 as it stands, many groups look for an AC when filling their party slot in a 5-man party, so this won't change in Mod 15.
10-person content will still want an AC and a DO in their party so that won't change.
If you RQ, a DO DC will still provide HG + BtS (30+21% damage) to the party. An AC DC (unless at very practiced levels) does not routinely add HG to their rotation. And in RQ/PUGs a DO DC will often be a strong DPS char (and made relatively stronger now that TI is a personal 25% buff and Avatar is buffed).
100% HG and BtS, is what, a 50% DPS increase that can be provided by which other class? An OP maybe? But they don't have the DPS output as a DO DC. A templock? Not nearly as much buffing, but they heal more (it's a funny compromise they made with that). The DO DC will still likely have weapons of light anyway, so will still contribute this as powersharing. So no, in my view, a DO DC will still be effective. If an RQ party kicks a DC for not playing AC, then they've got problems.
game. what they have proposed WILL kill the do in parties.
acs will no longer do ff and exhalt. they will be doing bts. with the change in rotation I'm guessing it won't be as hard to keep up hg either. we can do bts and hg still but it won't be needed.
Over-dramatic and hysterical.
lol you are only saying that because you mostly play as ac and it won't affect you. you are the one resorting to personal attacks here not me. and I'm guessing because I dared suggest they take a look at powershare LOL but what I said IS the truth.
all I want is for the do to remain a viable option going forward. right now it's not going to be. it needs to be equal to ac to remain viable. otherwise ANY Other class than us will be chosen.
Read the threat and check your options to get to the result that DO DC still can act as a supporter/dps , that´s what you prefer to do, go for it. You want to be meta-one click to do so, stop being childish please.
more name calling. check yourself please!
and the do can still act as support yes but they won't be called upon to do that because EVERY other support class is now better. LOL. the ac will be able to do everything we can do.
You can run AC-DO-OP- and still be equal or better in terms of buffs/debuffs than other combos simply by debuffing 37% and buffing 35%, on top encounter reset plus mititgation buffs, nothing those other classes provide on top. Templock, mof , hunter are similar range. Check your options and stop being childish please.
you can run anything - but if you want to have fast good runs replace the DO with a mof or a templock. With the cw changes a mof cw is so much better than the killed DO noone who has any clue will invite a DO dc.
Can you explain why a CR group with an AC dc should invite a DODC? a changed one?
what fgroup wouzld you run?
OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / MOF / GWF OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / DODC / GWF
which one will be the better group after the changes?
I think a lot of player should calm down a bit. First you can play whatever you want, DO is not dead but DO will not have access to "meta" runs outside your fl/premade in case you want to follow chat and play with those, who ask 24/7 for metagroups to compensate their lack of skill. A lot of player exggerate in forum, telling they gonna switch over to other mmo, deny to play anything else than DO etc. I propose to build an OP then, if you don´t want to play AC/DC, that´s also a nice supporter, or go to build a warlock or a GWF, may be better to have other classes anyway to prevent being disappointed, same as it is benefitial to play all paragons. After near 4 years of Double Dc runs they decided to end that option. Maybe there is a goal, balance and game is heading for doing so.
The far bigger question is, how will the company prevent player from leaving this game? Will mod 15 be a big content mod or not, we don´t know till now. Classbalance is a smaller issue in my eyes, if you recognize that a lot of player left the game out of bordomness.
Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
One reason you see more calls for an AC is that it is much easier to find a DO, as they can be useful at a lower IL. So, a 2-DC group usually find a DO fairly easily and then struggle for a while spamming the channels to find an AC.
For a single DC group, it really does not matter for a strong group whether you have a DO or AC - you can finish Tong in
wrong - the AC DC is needed for extra protection from AA.
In a weak group last boss in to9g try to run a perma AA ACDC and with the same weaker group run with DODC. ACDC is only needed for Protection. If you run with BIS OP, Power share of AC is nice but not needed you can replace it.
If the group is too weak or needs protection there is no w2ay you want a DO in. And if the DO now also can 't buff the same like AC the even groups without need of Protection of AA will choose an AC over an DO all day.
The do paragon is dead with this changes!
And yes I'm talking for ENDGAME DC's who build theri DC's over the years.
I agree about AA loosing cc immunity but I've also stated that very early in this thread and even if that is too much alteast make it so that the only acdc gets the cc immunity. It just asks for a minor shift in gameplay (better imo) . I wanted to slap this daily with a cooldown but given how the core acdc's are pretty much giving the rest only pep talks abt adjusting and nothing really changes , then perhaps it's also time to remove that cooldown slapped on hallowed ground because it doesn't make any sense anymore. It won't change the fact that ac's have always been in demand and will be moving on or is that also too much too ask?
I don't understand Cryptic's hatred of being able to have 2 DCs in dungeons. You buffed Templock, which was nice. But you don't have to pull down classes to buff other classes.
How can you not understand? Every CR I've done has been with 2 DCs. Having 2 out of 5 slots in endgame dungeons always taken up by 2 DCs is bad for everyone else. It's been awesome for my DC for the last year or so, but I think the only reason why this situation could be tolerated by other classes as long as it has is because it is so easy in this game to have multiple near bis characters. Leveling takes very little time, you can move enchants and campaign completion bundle costs less than a legendary mount.
I've done 50+ CR, only a few times with 2 DCs, but almost every time with 4 support + 1 dps meta. Most often were OP + GF + AC DC + mof/templock. Even now, a lot of people screaming "LF2 DC AC/DO" are the same ones that were yesterday whining about how they cant get into a party because of the damn 2DC meta - and you know what? Sometimes even those parties fail, maybe it's because DCs weren't doing their job good, or were "AFKing" as someone said it before in this thread → but most times, the problem is the DPS. There have been a few threads already where people realized that some of those "Super High IL UHDPS" guys were just pumping their IL, but wearing completely wrong gear/enchants/companions, or didn't even know their rotations. And once the people figured out who were those people, they started getting ignored for dungeons... and then they came to forums and whined about how it is impossible to get party outside of "2DC meta", which actually is, 4support + 1 dps meta.
I see all of this discussion around how this is bad. What if the devs long term goal is to provide DC the ability to Q into content as a DPS? And the way to do this is make DO the DPS path and the devs are doing this over time but due to constrains and limited resources they cannot implement the system to have DO Q yet as a DPS, but will with say mod 16. And for now had to make these changes so they can do the next set of changes come mod 16.
The reason I am stating this is that from all the changes I am seeing in mod 15 the devs seem to have a long term goal that they are not telling us as players.
1) They appear to be implementing some type of buffer/debuffer role 2) Classes will have two distinct roles 3) Requires them to do mod 15 update prior to implementing changes for future update
The pure lack of communication by the devs is why I believe that the community is an uproar with these changes. No one is taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture here and that is options for us.
In the current setup DC have one type of role we play: BUFFER....that is it...DO and AC both do the same we buff and even if a DO is setup as a full on DPS that DO is a buffer. Now with these updates the DO path is now setup for damage dealer. This is good news if the devs long term goal is to provide the DC with two roles DPS and Healer/Buffer. Which would be good news if you want to play your DC as a DPS.
As for those complaining about cost, welcome to the world of MMOs, any time the devs do balance their is always a cost past back to the player to deal with. Either continue with your current build or take a deep breath in and deal with the cost to your character to expand him or her.
The reason why I never went on full DO is that right out of the game the DO was a bit too good. Soon after 2 DC meta was a very common thing and continues to this day. Stating it is not a thing now is like stating that CW are the highest DPS class in the game, meaning your 2 DC meta not happening regularly is full of baloney.
This update I believe is just part of what is to coming in 2019. The question is how many of you can take a deep breath in and breathe out nice and slow and see that this is the beginning to further changes.
The problem I see is not the changes but the lack of communication by the devs. Proper communication is needed when you are making heavy and swift changes like these; otherwise the community feed back end up being pages of negative response on the changes you are planning, even if the end goal intention is good.
Comments
If you run only one class in this game I can try to understand those upset player. But tbh it is hard, since I also see all those other classes running arround in PE.
TI was changed in mod..8-9? pretty sloppy and without much thought right at the start, it was only a question of time when this changes will be reverted.
We could argue about other solution, wich all end at one point. How do I end one class being double-meta in two paragons at the same time and how do I get other classes into game again.
There are other option, but every change will end in a nerf of buffs, overperforming compared to other classes, consequently compensated with dps wich could be a target for DO DC.
If you compare a DO-DC a templock a mof and a Hunter you will understand where this is heading for.
I personally think this is not the end of downgrading mega-buffs like ITF (nerfed), HG (nerfed), TI (nerfed), BtS (nerfed), FF(nerfed) in the name of balance, next might be powersahring again.
But am I salty being nerfed or balanced with my DC ? No, I addept and honestly the class is still two times better than others in terms of buffs, if you double daily 3 times better.
This company started balancing and nerfing stuff >2 years ago and stopped in process, maybe due to low menpower.
They nerfed and fixed many stuff since then, otherwise this game would be in the trashcan allready. It is a pretty normal process.
Btw I also would be fine if AC was nerfed and DO got the cake and AC drops of, being no meta or asked for any more, I don´t care, I simply switch loadouts, done. As a DO it is far easier to keep up my buffs correctly all the time, so being lazy that would have been my choice.
But my genaral setup ingame would not change being DO or AC: buff, debuff, protection, some heals, the faster the better.
Dealing dps in a one-DC-setup? Why?
To be max. effective as the only DC I would have to run AP-regen (virtous) or divinty-gain (faithfull), I would have to run HG+DG+BtS and another encounter of choice (PoD at bosses) all the time. I would have to use TI + Hastening Light.
I would have to be the buffbot for that one dps, so why on earth should I focus on dps, since if I would, my effectiveness was worse and group-dps goes down for a small personal dps-boost.
Now we got AC being the buffbot and DO being the dps paragon, maybe the company follows a target, maybe they did put some thoughts into it.Maybe in the end we get back to a more healthy tank-leader-3dps setup, i am fine going that route.
Maybe a dps DC will find his niche in there, maybe not.
The only reason why DO-DC's can focus on dps sometimes is having another AC/DC in the group who AP regens, encounter resets, eDG´s etc.
Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
Let's focus on the real issues here.
The "meta" has changed many times in the past, as has the "optimal" way to play a DC. Remember when the only DC that was wanted was the "Hastebot"? Remember when you had to have the High Prophet set to be considered good...or going a long way back, when you "had" to have the Miracle Healer set ?
What is happening now is the following: The developers have decided that the "2DC meta" is a "bad thing". Instead of solving it properly (as I have suggested before, just making TI and AA mutually exclusive would have done the trick), they decided to completely kill DOs viability for groups as a primary buffer.
This does not mean DO DCs are entirely useless. A high-Crit, high-ArPen DO build is pretty good for solo play. Get your Exalted Primal weapons and a Dread enchant and just go and melt things. For groups, however, a DO will just not be comparable to an AC.
I expect the new "meta" to be
- Primary DPS, GWF or HR - TRs need not apply.
- OP - superior to GFs.
- AC DC, using AA, BtS, DG and Exalt... also casting HG when possible.
- SW, Temptation of course.
- MoF CW or the new buffer class being introduced "soon".
A DO might find a "charity" spot in guild runs or if a group is unable to find a SW/CW, but that's about it. Still, DCs are not as badly off as the TRs, who will not be wanted for PvE at all, or the GFs who will be totally pushed aside by the OPs.Now what bothers me about this is that DCs were in a good place, with two viable "end-game" builds, but now one of them is effectively being killed. This is also a problem for low-geared DCs...say, with an IL of 13-14K. They could contribute to an "end-game" group, as their buffs were largely independent of IL, but that's not the case for AC builds. AC DCs will be in a similar position as GWFs are now....not wanted unless they are 16K+.
Personally, I like DO - I have a DO DC with an IL of "almost" 18K (well, 17996), with over 5000 hours of playtime behind her. I also have a semi-decent AC build, (17.1K IL, 49K Power, Unparalelled Frost etc), which I occasionally use, in particular for weaker groups having problems at the second or third boss in ToNG if I was the only DC. However, switching from DO to AC is not simple or cheap....the power-sharing AC build is one of the most gear demanding (and expensive) in the game.
The bottom line for me is that I find it highly demotivating and disappointing to first give DCs two viable paragon paths and then just take one of them away. This, combined with the Profession and Salvage changes is why number of players will either take a break or abandon the game if those changes go live as they currently are.
That's not a threat....it's a fact.
However. I did do ToNG every day when we got to it. 5, 6 10 times a day.
I am going to be very honest about it.
If i played a DOi always had an AC Cleric i know and we are good in a combo to go with me, completing each other.
If i play AC i knew i can count on good DO's on my friend list, who if where not in dungeons would be willing to go with me and i knew i could count on them.
Is that bad? Idk. It worked for me.
For a single DC group, it really does not matter for a strong group whether you have a DO or AC - you can finish Tong in <20 minutes with either - however, for a non-BiS group, the AC is a safer bet, in particular to the immunity it can grant - and this is in particular an issue at the second and third boss. I do prefer DO at first boss, in particular as I usually am on "ball duty", and it is somewhat hard to keep AA up 100% if I'm running around chasing the balls.
The DCs were in a good place with both paragons viable - now that's no longer the case.
devoOP + GF (dps) + AC /DC + templock + mof/hunter/tact GF
because devo banes dps x1.1 x1.1 x1.1
If you take a prot over devo you get some more powerbuff but not that much to outshine 3x bane mulitplier 1.1, more common will be your choice maybe due to the lack of good dps GF and devo pally.
But even if you run devo OP, tact GF, AC/DC, temp/mof/buffhunter (similar buff (x1.4) than temp and consistent debuff 35%) and a dps, your damage output should be higher.
Tact GF can stack buffs 35-40% (double inspiring leader) and debuffs for 18% (CP+mark), guess 26% as a IV tactitian, and push AP gain significant plus spending a huge ammount of mitigation 55-65% (marked target).
3xbane on boss and dps is the stronger choice i think .... in case you got a top dps.
In case your dps is meh that won´t work and you get back to your: Prot, AC, templock, mof/hunter/tactGF + dps. As far as I know the average group got 5 spots.
We got DC, OP, GF, Hunter, SW, CW, TR, GWF -> 8 classes.
If you have one class that throws his towels on beach chair N° 1 and N° 2 right from the start, you got 7 classes left to fight for the remaining 3 spots, that´s all we talk about atm.
You simply can´t provide every paragon and path to be meta, impossible.
You can chose to run a setup beside the meta and play with friends , have fun etc., but you can´t expect the average underperforming lazy dude in chat, looking for a meta setup, to accept your choice.
And to get back on topic, in case a 11k DO DC outshines a 18k devo OP in terms of buffs/debuffs, no need for boons etc., and if the class , looking at buffs/debuffs, is same effective no matter if 11 or 18k , there is a problem about that class.
This problem could be solved only by downgrading buffs and upgrading dps, and that counts for almost all classes in general, same for templock, same for tact GF same for renemof, not sure about that buffhunter.
Near all actual problems have the same origin, too powerfull buffs combined with 1 hard hiting dps = easy win. No need to care about anything else than being a buffbot.
Some classes got downgraded in terms of buffs over the years, some upgraded (templock), wich in the sum is maybe good for the class, but bad for the game in my eyes.
I mean, OPs have a "Devo" and "Prot" build which are both perfectly viable - sure, one may work better than the other, depending on other classes in the party, or even the content - but they both have their uses. My complaint regarding the DC is that they used to have two very different builds which were viable for end-game content (the fact that some groups preferred one of each is a separate issue, which could have been solved otherwise), but now there is only a single "viable" one.
You could do content like ToNG easily with a single DC, and it really ddin't matter that much whether it was a DO or AC ... now a single DC group will be an AC - nobody will want a single DO - that's what I mean by "not viable".
Of course, other classes have had to deal with this - there are paragons or feat trees for every class that nobody really likes, and to me that is a problem....I would like every class to have multiple viable builds.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1237385/bts-vs-ff/p1
Removing Double Empowerment isn't going to affect AC rotation but it will obviously decrease the amount of buffing.
Actually I run AC rightous, Do rightous in PVE and AC or DO faithfull in PVP, 4 builds active on my side.
After that nerf I may run dps DO solo and in lower dungeon (random/daily), AC-rightous only in endcontent, AC faithfull in PVP and mayby also DO faithfull or rightous in PVP, depends on:
Piercing Light: Armor Penetration increased to 4/8/12/16/20% (up from 2/4/6/8/10%)
Avatar of the Divine (Reworked): The first power you use after entering combat grants you Avatar for 20 seconds, you also gain this effect every 45 seconds in combat. Avatar increases your damage dealt by 50%, Divinity Generation by 25%, and Cooldown Speed by 25%. Leaving combat cancels Avatar and resets its cooldown. Casting encounters will reduce the cooldown time of Avatar by 1.5 seconds for each stack of Empowered consumed
If every path and paragon would be meta or compatible with endcontent it would be a perfect mmo world.
Not at your adress @adinosii , but no matter wich threat or class i look up, complaints near everywhere. Some complain even without having ever entered preview once in their live.
Some clomplain about classes they even don´t understand or know.
Some are only and exclusively interested in their class and only in their class, forgetting that this is a mmorpg with a wide spread of classes to play.
Balance is needed. To prevent two paragons having the same role, synergizing like DC´s did for the last...4 years being meta (and still is meta!), and give that class more options in endcontent, you need to give classes two different roles in general. some classes got different roles that are viable actually, some not
Tank/support-leader - OP, both asked for in endcontent
Dps/Tank -GF, both asked for in endcontent
dps/support Hunter, both asked for in endcontent
dps/support warlock, temp asked in endcontent
dps/support CW, only mof asked for
dps/... TR
dps/.... GWF
Support/... DC
So if GWF get´s a tank ability ability, TR support and DC a dps role, things would be solved to some degree.
Blessing of Battle is painfully slow to cast, much slower than Brand. According to the guides Ive seen it has the best Divinity generation currently, but it feels like it takes forever with the animation that it has.
Unless your timing is perfect, it is likely to have some rotations with less than full empowerment, especially in longer fights.
That being said, removing any and all benefit to the group is too much.
Perhaps a couple of alternatives could be explored? Here's a couple:
1. When the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2/4/6/8/10%* more damage from all sources
2. Each time the DO DC damages an enemy, that enemy takes 2%* more damage from all sources (max. 5 stacks)
* = all numbers subject to change
This encourages the DO DC to be active in engaging enemies, and takes away the passive nature of the buff. It also still lets the DO DC bring something to group play, without being a 'must-have'. It will add more damage, but won't be an overwhelmingly BiS addition - so you *could* bring a second DC just for TI, but it won't be a make-or-break addition (i.e. taking a Devo OP or Templock would be fine, and in some cases, a more wanted option).
Anyway let's wait for devs response
I dont know guys. Playin NWO since M5. This game is still open beta or something.
You cant build character and chill after. Always will be strange things. I`m rly like playin DO.
But this news really upset me.
The oracle becomes unnecessary after level 70. Manual selection in the party will ALWAYS look for a more share-oriented character than the selection of a solo-based character (as one more dps).
But when newbie player come here pick a character, pick a paragon, play several times, get a half times a kick from DG. What they will do? Yeah, he or she will google and ask other players what`s wrong.
And then, will ask a question: Why do developers bring into the game obviously sad options?..
The options that MAKE the user to endure and EVEN PAY for IT.
I understand that this is just a way to fill a cell into gear loadout for solo quest. And it's terrible.
Create 2 paragons with 3 branches each, and only 1 of which has the right to life, because all the rest do not fit into the content created by the SAME DEVELOPERS
P.S.
You play AC and DO? After your writing I doubt it.
A pure AC is completly different build up than a DO.
One quick hint: Companions - how much do they cost to chance? Get it?
Artifact - Do plays totally wrong ones - you know
Maybe your an undergeard DC who don't know anything about high end DC's but the DO changes kill the DO forever and rebuild to AC is massive investement I'm not willing to do.
With the changes of DO you don't want to have a DO in the Party and if in random groups the t9 cr pops and you aree DO DC the group will quit!
Instead of a DODC you bring in a MOF - hes much better at DPS (especially with all the CW changes) and overall much better than a DO.
If you are fine to play an AC with 40k basepower - sure you can do but in group runs maybe you are not first choice........
Can you explain why a CR group with an AC dc should invite a DODC? a changed one?
what fgroup wouzld you run?
OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / MOF / GWF
OP DEVO / ACDC / GF / DODC / GWF
which one will be the better group after the changes?
First you can play whatever you want, DO is not dead but DO will not have access to "meta" runs outside your fl/premade in case you want to follow chat and play with those, who ask 24/7 for metagroups to compensate their lack of skill.
A lot of player exggerate in forum, telling they gonna switch over to other mmo, deny to play anything else than DO etc.
I propose to build an OP then, if you don´t want to play AC/DC, that´s also a nice supporter, or go to build a warlock or a GWF, may be better to have other classes anyway to prevent being disappointed, same as it is benefitial to play all paragons.
After near 4 years of Double Dc runs they decided to end that option.
Maybe there is a goal, balance and game is heading for doing so.
The far bigger question is, how will the company prevent player from leaving this game?
Will mod 15 be a big content mod or not, we don´t know till now. Classbalance is a smaller issue in my eyes, if you recognize that a lot of player left the game out of bordomness.
In a weak group last boss in to9g try to run a perma AA ACDC and with the same weaker group run with DODC.
ACDC is only needed for Protection. If you run with BIS OP, Power share of AC is nice but not needed you can replace it.
If the group is too weak or needs protection there is no w2ay you want a DO in. And if the DO now also can 't buff the same like AC the even groups without need of Protection of AA will choose an AC over an DO all day.
The do paragon is dead with this changes!
And yes I'm talking for ENDGAME DC's who build theri DC's over the years.
Even now, a lot of people screaming "LF2 DC AC/DO" are the same ones that were yesterday whining about how they cant get into a party because of the damn 2DC meta - and you know what? Sometimes even those parties fail, maybe it's because DCs weren't doing their job good, or were "AFKing" as someone said it before in this thread → but most times, the problem is the DPS. There have been a few threads already where people realized that some of those "Super High IL UHDPS" guys were just pumping their IL, but wearing completely wrong gear/enchants/companions, or didn't even know their rotations. And once the people figured out who were those people, they started getting ignored for dungeons... and then they came to forums and whined about how it is impossible to get party outside of "2DC meta", which actually is, 4support + 1 dps meta.
The reason I am stating this is that from all the changes I am seeing in mod 15 the devs seem to have a long term goal that they are not telling us as players.
1) They appear to be implementing some type of buffer/debuffer role
2) Classes will have two distinct roles
3) Requires them to do mod 15 update prior to implementing changes for future update
The pure lack of communication by the devs is why I believe that the community is an uproar with these changes. No one is taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture here and that is options for us.
In the current setup DC have one type of role we play: BUFFER....that is it...DO and AC both do the same we buff and even if a DO is setup as a full on DPS that DO is a buffer. Now with these updates the DO path is now setup for damage dealer. This is good news if the devs long term goal is to provide the DC with two roles DPS and Healer/Buffer. Which would be good news if you want to play your DC as a DPS.
As for those complaining about cost, welcome to the world of MMOs, any time the devs do balance their is always a cost past back to the player to deal with. Either continue with your current build or take a deep breath in and deal with the cost to your character to expand him or her.
The reason why I never went on full DO is that right out of the game the DO was a bit too good. Soon after 2 DC meta was a very common thing and continues to this day. Stating it is not a thing now is like stating that CW are the highest DPS class in the game, meaning your 2 DC meta not happening regularly is full of baloney.
This update I believe is just part of what is to coming in 2019. The question is how many of you can take a deep breath in and breathe out nice and slow and see that this is the beginning to further changes.
The problem I see is not the changes but the lack of communication by the devs. Proper communication is needed when you are making heavy and swift changes like these; otherwise the community feed back end up being pages of negative response on the changes you are planning, even if the end goal intention is good.