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M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • sabre10sabre10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I appreciate your goals of improving viability of unused powers/feat trees, balancing off the efficacy of stealth in PvP and eliminating "troubling interaction", but you're yet again cracking a walnut with a sledgehammer.
    Removing the "troubling interactions" takes the TR from competitive (more than in some cases) to very much less than!
    Making this change with concurrent nerfs to other damaging powers, suggests that you under-appreciate how reliant TRs are on this to cover less than sufficient base damage.

    Hey Trickster Rogues,

    Hopefully this is the moment you’ve all been waiting for because this is the major re-balancing of the Trickster Rogue class!

    Given your approach to "rebalancing", I can't help but feel the above sentence should have been put in the other class's feedback threads!
    aDXr4Ur.png
    Civil Anarchy Officer
    Fabled Alliance
  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    >
    > Hopefully this is the moment you’ve all been waiting for because this is the major re-balancing of the Trickster Rogue class!
    >
    >
    > Given your approach to "rebalancing", I can't help but feel the above sentence should have been put in the other class's feedback threads!

    Cause he was trolling!!! Seriously what we has been waiting for? Killing our dailys and our most usefull encounter and worst our playstyle 🤣🤣🤣
    Post edited by mafiadelperro#8853 on
  • rustyroo13#1749 rustyroo13 Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    adinosii said:

    Well, TRs are clearly going back to the "not wanted" in PvE. I do not see end-game groups wanting TRs as the primary DPS any more.

    If this was prompted by the "TRs are too strong in PvP", then why, why not just make a change to a few key powers, making their effects different depending on whether they were affecting other players (in PvP) or regular mobs (in PvE?

    This would have made PvP a bit more balanced, while still kept TRs as viable primary DPSers in PvE.

    Is someone getting paid to basically destroy the game to get everyone to move over to the new M:tG game?

    THIS!

    So some people bitched and complained about TR so we are getting these massively nerfy changes? My TR has just passed 11k and I've worked very hard to get her there by practical trial and error, pouring over viable builds, and tweaking her until she's finally getting to where she's working well. NOW I'm going to have to go back and redo everything I've done, just because some people complained about PvP TRs when I don't even play PvP to begin with?

    Just.Don't.GET IT!.
    Post edited by rustyroo13#1749 on
    Arielle Redbow half-elf Warden Ranger
    Guild: Guardians of the Forest
  • odinslasherodinslasher Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
    Dear devs,

    *TR PVE perspective*
    Your rework for the TR's are interesting and it does close the gap between the three trees which I personally think is a good thing.

    However, the changes you have made to the Dailies Whirlwind of Blades, Courage Breaker and Impossible to Catch has significantly dropped the dps of what a TR can do.

    To compete with the end game dps classes, TR's relied on using Dailies such as Whirlwind of Blades/Courage Breaker and encounter Impossible to Catch to buff their powers and proc artificers persuasion to be on par with other classes or if not more.

    Unfortunately I am not a maths genius like some, so I cannot show the dps difference of the current mod 14 TR and mod 15 TR but it is a huge difference. (like the difference of having a toon with 200k-300k+ power<-mod14 TR and 70k+power<-mod 15 TR)

    As a result the TR's will now lose its value as a dps class in pve.

    If the power interaction had to go, then it had to go. I respect the changes made. But please consider a buff to minimize the dps changes for a mod 14 TR and mod 15 TR.

    *TR PVP perspective*
    GOOD JOB!
  • mirlegrismirlegris Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    Honestly, just making buffs from PtA/CB/WoB/II/IA all additive instead of multiplicative would be a better balanced nerf.

    And, if you want us to play others trees and paths, you need to buff WK path.

    Even with powerloop nerf, Dagger Threat is far away to be as good as Inv.Inf.
  • passthabong1988#1625 passthabong1988 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Please reconsider these changes, as it currently sits in mod 14 TRs are in fact a desirable class for end game content unlike they have been for multiple mods to were people have excluded a TR from basically all content..especially end game content and currently in mod 14 this isn't the case. As it stands this will no longer be the case in mod 15 for the stated reasons so many have pointed out with actual in game testing..not only is this a massive nurf but it basically ensures that the class is unplayable in any end game content if not the lower content as well. Some of us simply play the TR and love the class/playstyle of it as a whole..but if these changes are what we expect to actually receive in mod 15 as a rework then there is no point in playing anymore because we will be less than sub par dps and that's exactly how we as a class will be treated in game. This is not a quality of life balance but the murderer of a type of playstyle that some of your player base enjoys and either have spent money on or grinded months to years on....my TR alone is 17.6k and it's the only reason I ever got hooked into this game..but if its fixing to receive this massive trash of a rework..sorry to call it that because I mean someone had to have came up with it but that's exactly what it is..lol I can't really see playing anymore because even after having one of all the classes 14k and above the TR is the reason I still play. If you won't listen to reason or the facts that are being presented in this form and still release this then consider this TR player of Neverwinter leaving.
  • yoko#8608 yoko Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Hm, I only use exe on bosses, and not even on all bosses. Saboteur most of the time and this feels like a huge buff for sabo, agreed. But I also see the other hand, the No1 single target dps gets nerfed to the ground on single target, again... And that´s a pity,...







  • scottyfnc#2957 scottyfnc Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    I do see your point. your build as it is will need changed, as will everyones. and maybe you have the muscle memory in your fingers down to a science, but is it that hard to adjust? maybe you can try using a new buffed Oppressive Darkness instead of Infiltrators action, try some other encounter in place of ITC, what would a stealthed wicked reminder do for dmg or *gasp* party damge instead of just itc buff for yourself? could you imagine wicked reminder instead of ITC in castle ravenloft which has a possible 100% defense? or maybe pop off lurkers assault instead and try out the new prolonged stealth and proc some mechanics with it. My point is isn't there something you can do to make up for it instead of just reading, and throwing your hands in the air? I get it, its fine to vent. but is it truly the DEATH of the TR? I can compete half decent with the Sh*tty sabo buff as it is now simply because i focus on popping off encounters. Is the power buff TR really the only way to go? one thing i noticed..if ITC was giving 20,000% deflect, was that contributing to assassin's covenant? I don't run that insignia bonus so i wouldn't know. Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe the TR is dead. 1 thing is for sure, everyone's build needs an adjustment...but I can't tell which people are complaining because they don't want to actually figure something out again (or wait for someone to tell them what to do in a guide) or if it really is dead. All i see is complaining and no real constructive criticism or even anyone throwing on an idea of what to do now. And to vent a little myself.
  • scottyfnc#2957 scottyfnc Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    As a sabo who already runs OD, this looks like a huge buff to me (minus the smoke bomb and DF OD proc nerf). No, i don't have the chult end dungeons unlocked yet so i'm sure you'll tell me I'm stupid and I don't know what i'm talking about, and I'm sure all you SoD CLONES are already thinking of trolling remarks because I use sabo tree. However, why would you simply cry and try to quit instead of innovate? Most of you are clones and all do the same exact thing, LB or Dazing str, smoke, ITC, CB WoB, Bleed Bleed rinse repeat, all the Sod clone guides say the same thing, you all follow the meta. Aside from the TR OGs, How much time did you waste "figuring out" your SoD clone that you copied off of everyone else? What time did you waste on gear? What exactly do you have to regear now? i can see some artifact changes maybe (which is an RP black hole, and sucks). I made it a point to NEVER use ITC. so i lose 10% power buff but i gain an encounter power that does dmg. Why don't you just try that now? or try anything that's not meta/clone/no thinking. Can't get invited to a dungeon cause your a TR? join a guild with an alliance. Also, skullcracker might not actually be broken? maybe that's a new path to try now. Maybe you can be the first OP Hamster skullcracker? I'm still confused on what people are talking about "all the time they wasted getting gear/mounts whatever" what gear do you have to change now (if you stay melee)? I hope you all do quit like you say you will. frees up some queue spots for the rest of us who are trying to not be a run of the mill SoD clone toon. I think half of you just picked a rogue to put her in leather gear and watch her run around half naked anyways. G'Day!

    You are totally missing the point. Its not about the feats and encounters you use, its about the extreme change to Daily powers, most important the WoB.
    TR is losing a lot of damage because of it, regardless which tree path you play and its totally changing the play style and we will lose a lot more damage when AoC+Smoke bomb gets fixed.
    SoD clones are clones for a reason, because nothing else comes even close.
    I do see your point. your build as it is will need changed, as does everyones. and maybe you have the muscle memory in your fingers down to a science, but is it that hard to adjust? maybe you can try using a new buffed Oppressive Darkness instead of Infiltrators action, try some other encounter in place of ITC, what would a stealthed wicked reminder do for dmg or *gasp* party damge instead of just itc buff for yourself? could you imagine wicked reminder instead of ITC in castle ravenloft which has a possible 100% defense? or maybe pop off lurkers assault instead and try out the new prolonged stealth and proc some mechanics with it. My point is isn't there something you can do to make up for it instead of just reading, and throwing your hands in the air? I get it, its fine to vent. but is it truly the DEATH of the TR? I can compete half decent with the Sh*tty sabo buff as it is now simply because i focus on popping off encounters. Is the power buff TR really the only way to go? one thing i noticed..if ITC was giving 20,000% deflect, was that contributing to assassin's covenant? I don't run that insignia bonus so i wouldn't know. Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe the TR is dead. 1 thing is for sure, everyone's build needs an adjustment...but I can't tell which people are complaining because they don't want to actually figure something out again (or wait for someone to tell them what to do in a guide) or if it really is dead. All i see is complaining and no real constructive criticism or even anyone throwing on an idea of what to do now. That was my point. And to vent a little myself.

  • mafiadelperro#8853 mafiadelperro Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    > @scottyfnc#2957 said:
    > As a sabo who already runs OD, this looks like a huge buff to me (minus the smoke bomb and DF OD proc nerf). No, i don't have the chult end dungeons unlocked yet so i'm sure you'll tell me I'm stupid and I don't know what i'm talking about, and I'm sure all you SoD CLONES are already thinking of trolling remarks because I use sabo tree. However, why would you simply cry and try to quit instead of innovate? Most of you are clones and all do the same exact thing, LB or Dazing str, smoke, ITC, CB WoB, Bleed Bleed rinse repeat, all the Sod clone guides say the same thing, you all follow the meta. Aside from the TR OGs, How much time did you waste "figuring out" your SoD clone that you copied off of everyone else? What time did you waste on gear? What exactly do you have to regear now? i can see some artifact changes maybe (which is an RP black hole, and sucks). I made it a point to NEVER use ITC. so i lose 10% power buff but i gain an encounter power that does dmg. Why don't you just try that now? or try anything that's not meta/clone/no thinking. Can't get invited to a dungeon cause your a TR? join a guild with an alliance. Also, skullcracker might not actually be broken? maybe that's a new path to try now. Maybe you can be the first OP Hamster skullcracker? I'm still confused on what people are talking about "all the time they wasted getting gear/mounts whatever" what gear do you have to change now (if you stay melee)? I hope you all do quit like you say you will. frees up some queue spots for the rest of us who are trying to not be a run of the mill SoD clone toon. I think half of you just picked a rogue to put her in leather gear and watch her run around half naked anyways. G'Day!
    >
    > You are totally missing the point. Its not about the feats and encounters you use, its about the extreme change to Daily powers, most important the WoB.
    > TR is losing a lot of damage because of it, regardless which tree path you play and its totally changing the play style and we will lose a lot more damage when AoC+Smoke bomb gets fixed.
    > SoD clones are clones for a reason, because nothing else comes even close.
    >
    > I do see your point. your build as it is will need changed, as does everyones. and maybe you have the muscle memory in your fingers down to a science, but is it that hard to adjust? maybe you can try using a new buffed Oppressive Darkness instead of Infiltrators action, try some other encounter in place of ITC, what would a stealthed wicked reminder do for dmg or *gasp* party damge instead of just itc buff for yourself? could you imagine wicked reminder instead of ITC in castle ravenloft which has a possible 100% defense? or maybe pop off lurkers assault instead and try out the new prolonged stealth and proc some mechanics with it. My point is isn't there something you can do to make up for it instead of just reading, and throwing your hands in the air? I get it, its fine to vent. but is it truly the DEATH of the TR? I can compete half decent with the Sh*tty sabo buff as it is now simply because i focus on popping off encounters. Is the power buff TR really the only way to go? one thing i noticed..if ITC was giving 20,000% deflect, was that contributing to assassin's covenant? I don't run that insignia bonus so i wouldn't know. Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe the TR is dead. 1 thing is for sure, everyone's build needs an adjustment...but I can't tell which people are complaining because they don't want to actually figure something out again (or wait for someone to tell them what to do in a guide) or if it really is dead. All i see is complaining and no real constructive criticism or even anyone throwing on an idea of what to do now. That was my point. And to vent a little myself.

    Stfu n gtfo
  • sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @balanced#2849

    Interesting changes overall, sabo builds are looking a little more viable now.

    Do you have any plans on taking a look at overperforming daily spamming exploited by pvp TRs? Bloodbath especially is the overused go to in this arena because it grants the TR the ability to do high damage and be immune to damage at the same time (while also stacking up damage for shadow of demise procs) and has a lengthy duration. I saw the damage and duration was slightly reduced, but the immunity remains. Do you have any plans on revamping this power further?
    image
  • scottyfnc#2957 scottyfnc Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    snip ...but I can't tell which people are complaining because they don't want to actually figure something out again (or wait for someone to tell them what to do in a guide) or if it really is dead... snap

    This is coming from a player who wrote the guide, TRs core mechanics were played with in this rework, probably with good intentions but it totally crippled the class because it broke the things which TR relies the most on - Daily abilities which increase Power.

    Using different feat tree or something instead ITC or Oppressive Darkness wont change anything since it isnt relevant to core mechanism of the class. Reading the guide might help you understand why these changes are so bad.
    I'll take you up on that. link me your guide. I get the jist though, no power gain on CB sucks, and the 40% damage is less than power from gobs of enemies on WoB. but how bad is that difference? drop in bleeds is concerning, but to do the other buffs make up for it? I guess i just always have a "can do" attitude.
  • skatopsixos7skatopsixos7 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    Heres my personal take on all these changes.


    And as a content creator (Galactic underwear ) I find these changes to greatly diminish my wanting to create guides,
    content, and how to videos for Tr's.. most content creators for tr's would feel the same..
    Anyways down to business.

    First of all , why would you even consider removing every single ability and option we have as TR'S, to self buff ?
    are we even considered a dps class if these change go through to live ?

    2 - I remember a community stream where FOSS, said , '' TR's need to be top dps'ers on single target due to us being so squishy and being a melee class, we need to dodge/roll many times to not die ( can't dps if you're dead ), as a result of all the dodging /rolling, we lose dps, since we can't attack in this state .. So what changed your minds?

    3 - I think you all are well aware we are a DPS class, and not tanks/healers/buffers , so removing all our dps abilities
    would just make us a support dps class with minimal impact as dps'ers, we would end up debuffing, with wicked reminder ,sly flourish and Courage breaker rather than providing any sort of help dps wise on single targets.

    4- Tr's have always had issues being invited to groups, the norm was to ask for gwf, but never a tr.
    we got our few months of glory only to have it ripped apart to such an extent that i know many are considering quiting
    and just giving up with neverwinter , and if you add the huge ban wave that happened along with these changes, than you can see how a mass exodus is very possible ( my youtube comments on these changes are overwhelming and adamant about giving this game up )
    i myself love the game, as do most of us, and rather see it survive than crash and burn..

    5- I'm not saying we didnt need some sort of nerf, to some abilities, i think we needed some nerfing in some areas,
    but this is overkill and unwaranted . Please re-think these huge nerfs, or trust me, the end result will not be in your favor.

    6- Trying to balance all trees in the feat tree by destroying executioner isnt exactly a game plan IMO.
    ITC and COURAGE BREAKER ,are our main self buffing powers, adding WWOB to that mix and artificers, made us be competitive and usefull.
    Power looping was the only way we could achieve our goal of being relevant and wanted in groups.
    You could of just slightly reduced sod, id be okay with it staying at 50% and leave the rest as it was.
    That way we would still be usefull and competitive in groups. ( don't give me that one phasing nonesense since i know 5 different classes who can one phase, that comes down to skill and group compositions )

    7- If these changes persist, and reach live, we will be doing 50% or more, less damage than we did in the past few months.
    I find that unacceptable, let alone the players who have spent thousands of dollars investing in the game and the tr itself.
    As a business i think this isnt to your advantage..

    8- And to end this , i would like to ask you developers to really re-think this, and take a different approach to balancing.
    many really good number crunchers/testers and awesome people in here, have given you the right idea ( like tremeliques, mickeypoo, and blur. ) i hope you take the advice given and do something about it that is productive , that will want players to continue playing, enjoy the game, and spend money on it..
    like i said earlier, sure, nerf some things, rebalance some powers, but please don't kill the class we have come to love and enjoy for so many years..


    Ps. wouldnt you rather be remembered as the team who made neverwinter great again?
    instead of the ones who killed it? seems harsh, but not far from the truth.

    Regards
    Galactic underwear.



  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,320 Arc User
    Also fix the wonky AI that causes mobs to push TR during Duelist's Flurry.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • aymed#4611 aymed Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I ve been playing tr since a long time ago but i never really reached endgame until mod 14 so i nerver really saw the" dark times"
    where no one wanted a TR. And for Mod 15 i expected nerf, i mean i new about some bugs and people onephasing bosses.
    But this changes are ridicolus. It seams you never tried to play tr on a hight Lvl or you want them to be a starterclass for low geared or casual players. But that still doesnt explain some things. For example the change about smokebmb seems like a joke cause it looks like some devs saw Trs playing with smokebomb and thought it was too strong cause of its dmg while in reality its just bugged and procs AoC to often. Its the same with the daily changes, Dont you know that we have a really low basedmg and need recovery? we cant just stack power or use encounters to buff us. Nerfing our core dmg source for all paths and then buffing one Path will never work what did you even think? I m sad to say or think that but it feels like the devs dont even now about the class or atleast try to learn about about when they were adjusting it. People patching something they dont now and probably dont want to now is the sadest thing that can happen in a game and i never saw something like this.


    If you want to experiment pls talk to the community first and also inform yourself before going to or you will destroy your reputation if you havent jet. And before i sound to much like a crying baby here are some suggestions.
    If you want us to get away from powerlooping remove the Ap block from lurkers Assult, Instead of nerfing stuff just fix it,
    make Artificers only use base power plus 1/3 of buffs, let the power of dailys stack only 3 times and give CB back its power cause now this daily feels like its made for a buff/tank tr which is that would be fine if you would rework whisperknife into a buff paragon which you didnt.and pls change WoB back it is a really balanced power if you would just adjust the power lopping by doing dailys multiple times . Or if you just want to remove the class or change it ito a pvp/Beginers class give us the option to transfer everything to a class you are actually supporting.

    If you find grammar or spelling mistakes you can keep them.
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