test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

145791016

Comments

  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    @vordayn

    i can see your perspective. but, perhaps you should reserve your opinion until the new mod drops, and try to get into an endgame dungeon run with a DO dc (that isnt being formed by your mates who will bring you along cause they like you). I would like to know how you go with that, and i promise i am not being a smart HAMSTER, i am honestly curious.

    the problem is that once dpsers know they arent getting the bonus damage buff, they wont want you, or your nerfed pod or your nerfed ff. so you tell me what you will bring to the table in an end game dungeon on a DO? and please dont say dps... cause no one is going to bring a cleric along for dps when other classes will do that better.

    and fyi - i run ac. so this nerf doesnt affect me half as much.

    An interesting challenge, getting into an end-game dungeon with a DO DC with people that I do not know. As it currently stands, and I am not being flippant, a lot of the calls for CR or TONG in the IL-stratified channels do ask for an ACDC. This change, sure, will make them less happy about getting a DODC, but they weren't going to ask for one in the current mod anyway. So the challenge is a bit of a conundrum, because it is going against what I am already doing and what the current meta wants. However, I see your point, the DO DC will be less wanted for being a buffer because they lost that +20% buff with TI. However, I do think that a DO DC still is comparable to other buffers in the 'secondary buffer' spectrum: SW templock and CW MoF. So are they really nuked? Or have they become more comparable to other classes now? For the CW, the MoF is practically the only paragon type accepted into parties. The DC has two paragons to choose from, so it is not as if we are beggars. I have both a CW and DC end-game ready, so I know how much more the DC is wanted than a CW. Learning how to play both paragons just opens up my options, and I am honestly confused why DCs refuse to learn the other half of their class ... whereas a class like the CW is practically man-handled into one paragon in end-game parties.

    Just a small point, but a DO would run BtS usually, and the AC was historically "in-charge of" FF, as the faster animation time allowed the AC to streamline their rotation for AA. PoD was only used conditionally if there was another DC in the party. So this won't be changing much if you were the only DO DC in the party, as you shouldn't have been running FF or PoD anyway.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vordayn said:


    This is an end-game DC problem, so how much of the playerbase is it going to affect?

    More specifically, its an endgame 2xDC bespoke run problem. Solo DCs queues can queue as whatever they want. The queue don't discriminate. The lose of TI just means the runs take a bit longer. And may be a bit more annoying in cases like ToNG. For ToNG, I swallow my pride and become an AA spam bot. It's so boring just mashing buttons for perma-AA.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vordayn said:

    vorphied said:

    vordayn said:

    DO is still viable. It has been strengthened for all solo content


    While the other aspects of DO gameplay are fair to debate (x% buff in y situation, etc.), let's not accidentally lend any credibility to the notion that this "solo content strengthening" matters in any significant way.

    When we start getting bonus rewards for overkill, people might start caring, but DO didn't need any help at all for solo content.

    As for the buff debate, I think it's important to keep in mind that, while ACs who can maintain very high double-daily coverage aren't incredibly common, it should still be considered for end-game group composition that Hallowed Ground isn't a DO exclusive.

    Now there's a thought...perhaps it should be.

    Your first two points matter particularly in end-game group content.

    I don't think mid-game content will be affected that much by the TI changes to party performance. Mid-game ACs will not be able to reach overlapping dailies for perhaps more than 10-20% of the time if at all. For early-game content, HG plus the debuff from TI would still have an impact, arguably more so than a powersharer AC with teammates without optimised companions to actually benefit from it, and early game DCs probably do not have 100% uptime of ANY daily.

    This is an end-game DC problem, so how much of the playerbase is it going to affect?

    Furthermore, on a different tangent, end-game DCs should have the knowledge, ability, and perhaps even extra gear to swap between AC and DO seamlessly.

    In my opinion, DO DC and AC DC should function differently, they should not provide the same X% of buffs, but rather a different way to play the game; hence secondary DPS (or even primary DPS with lesser geared parties) vs buffer.

    End-game may not be the entire game, but I would argue that it is usually regarded as the end goal for balance since it is most players' ultimate "destination" and where they aim to continue to be going forward once they've arrived.

    Mid-game balance is of much less consequence not only because of the point I'm making above, but also because mid-game is extremely forgiving. We should also keep in mind that, even though the content and many of its players may be what we consider "mid-game," there is nothing that bars end-game players from being present and contributing, which risks trivializing what challenge there may be. Players are likely to be less restrictive about party composition when most or all of the dungeon can reasonably be completed by a sufficiently powerful solo character.

    I agree that all DCs should maintain loadouts for both Paths, but I also agree with the point that having DO mains swap focus to AC is not a simple matter of rearranging the gear you already have.

    Is my 18k DO sufficiently capable of playing AC? Sure. I do it a good portion of the time, and I built heavy with Black Ice in offense as well as defense and have a legendary snail to further assist with daily uptime, so I can play AC without a problem. However, if I decided to change my main focus from DO to AC, I would want to make some costly changes to commit to being an AC main.

    If that's my situation as a highly geared DO main who already builds with a nod towards AC, what is the impact on the up-and-coming DO main who doesn't have those resources and thought they were perfectly fine as-is?

    While the hyperbole may be strong in this thread, I don't think it's exaggeration in the slightest when posters here anticipate a major public backlash against DO DC when it comes to end-game content, and that does matter. DO isn't just competing against the support field in general; it's competing with AC for what is increasingly looking like the single cleric slot, and many groups will default to AC even now because of how strong AA is on a well-built and well-played cleric. Sure, you can do end-game content with no cleric at all, but in practice, players are not ditching their AC DCs.

    P.S. I agree that AC and DO shouldn't bring so many of the same benefits, and I don't disagree with the spirit of the changes, but I worry that they have gone too far. I'd be happy if they went further in buffing DO's DPS capabilities to further differentiate it from AC, but I doubt they'll do it.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vordayn said:

    vorphied said:

    vordayn said:

    DO is still viable. It has been strengthened for all solo content


    While the other aspects of DO gameplay are fair to debate (x% buff in y situation, etc.), let's not accidentally lend any credibility to the notion that this "solo content strengthening" matters in any significant way.

    When we start getting bonus rewards for overkill, people might start caring, but DO didn't need any help at all for solo content.

    As for the buff debate, I think it's important to keep in mind that, while ACs who can maintain very high double-daily coverage aren't incredibly common, it should still be considered for end-game group composition that Hallowed Ground isn't a DO exclusive.

    Now there's a thought...perhaps it should be.

    Your first two points matter particularly in end-game group content.

    I don't think mid-game content will be affected that much by the TI changes to party performance. Mid-game ACs will not be able to reach overlapping dailies for perhaps more than 10-20% of the time if at all. For early-game content, HG plus the debuff from TI would still have an impact, arguably more so than a powersharer AC with teammates without optimised companions to actually benefit from it, and early game DCs probably do not have 100% uptime of ANY daily.

    This is an end-game DC problem, so how much of the playerbase is it going to affect?

    Furthermore, on a different tangent, end-game DCs should have the knowledge, ability, and perhaps even extra gear to swap between AC and DO seamlessly.

    In my opinion, DO DC and AC DC should function differently, they should not provide the same X% of buffs, but rather a different way to play the game; hence secondary DPS (or even primary DPS with lesser geared parties) vs buffer.
    Yea I finally found someone I can AGREE with about Cleric. :)

    I mean I don't like with they necessarily did to Terrifying Insight, but I don't think it's entirely as bad as some have let on. It's why I pointed out it was actually a +5% damage boost for the Cleric themselves despite nobody seeming to notice it, even if the Party BUFF had managed to change to a 10% Damage Resistence DEBUFF.

    I tried earlier suggesting maybe they may slightly extend the Damage Resistence DEBUFF, or possibly reconsider extending Light Gift's out to 12.5%. But still those were mostly laughed at by 4-5 people, then when I even suggested what someone else did... Maybe they'd change the TI BUFF to offer 1/2 or 1/3 the damage BUFF to the party? Still had one person laugh at that comment, even though I'd strongly believe they likely won't do that. Still I think it's only show how strongly some had become on the dual Cleric role for most content. I mean it won't prevent you from having two Cleric's in Future but they may require being a little higher gear score.

    I mean Cleric's even a Devine as @vordayn pointed out can still provide a fair # of buff's not just from their Light Gift's but also from the 10% damage boost to target's they hit with a DoT. In addition to the little bit of Healing and other things they provid--I think some people are taking it a little out of context.

    Also they have improved the damage several other classes, so a 10% power boost from DoT will represent more, to parties than they did before especially with Light Gifts.

    Overall I'm actually mostly happy what they did to MOST classes. Though I think some have really been vocal in the Cleric & Rogue changes threads.

    What I'm most SAD about or quite, if not extremely unhappy is PROFESSIONS! But I'll keep this out of this thread...
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    strathkin said:



    vordayn said:

    vorphied said:

    vordayn said:

    DO is still viable. It has been strengthened for all solo content


    While the other aspects of DO gameplay are fair to debate (x% buff in y situation, etc.), let's not accidentally lend any credibility to the notion that this "solo content strengthening" matters in any significant way.

    When we start getting bonus rewards for overkill, people might start caring, but DO didn't need any help at all for solo content.

    As for the buff debate, I think it's important to keep in mind that, while ACs who can maintain very high double-daily coverage aren't incredibly common, it should still be considered for end-game group composition that Hallowed Ground isn't a DO exclusive.

    Now there's a thought...perhaps it should be.

    Your first two points matter particularly in end-game group content.

    I don't think mid-game content will be affected that much by the TI changes to party performance. Mid-game ACs will not be able to reach overlapping dailies for perhaps more than 10-20% of the time if at all. For early-game content, HG plus the debuff from TI would still have an impact, arguably more so than a powersharer AC with teammates without optimised companions to actually benefit from it, and early game DCs probably do not have 100% uptime of ANY daily.

    This is an end-game DC problem, so how much of the playerbase is it going to affect?

    Furthermore, on a different tangent, end-game DCs should have the knowledge, ability, and perhaps even extra gear to swap between AC and DO seamlessly.

    In my opinion, DO DC and AC DC should function differently, they should not provide the same X% of buffs, but rather a different way to play the game; hence secondary DPS (or even primary DPS with lesser geared parties) vs buffer.
    I mean I don't like with they necessarily did to Terrifying Insight either but I don't think it's entirely as bad as some have let on. It's why I tried much earlier to state that it was actually a +5% damage boost for the Cleric themselves, even if the Party BUFF had managed to change to a 10% Damage Resistence DEBUFF.


    I tried earlier to suggest maybe they may slightly extend the Damage Resistence DEBUFF, or possibly reconsider extending Light Gift's out to 12.5%. But still those were mostly laughed at by 4-5 people, then when I even suggested what someone else did, saying maybe they'd change the TI BUFF to offer 1/2 or 1/3 the damage BUFF to the party? Still had one person laugh at that comment even though I'd strongly believe they likely won't do that.
    This would be a good compromise, and softening the extreme nerf hammer. Making TI provide a secondary damage buff to party members (a fraction like 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage as @strathkin recommended), along with the debuff, and personal character buff, might allow the developers to make changes that aren't so drastic/unpopular.

    Also, providing something to strengthen the DO to play as they wish in group content, making them function more as secondary DPS, along with useful buffs/debuffs, would be good.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    vordayn said:

    @vordayn

    i can see your perspective. but, perhaps you should reserve your opinion until the new mod drops, and try to get into an endgame dungeon run with a DO dc (that isnt being formed by your mates who will bring you along cause they like you). I would like to know how you go with that, and i promise i am not being a smart HAMSTER, i am honestly curious.

    the problem is that once dpsers know they arent getting the bonus damage buff, they wont want you, or your nerfed pod or your nerfed ff. so you tell me what you will bring to the table in an end game dungeon on a DO? and please dont say dps... cause no one is going to bring a cleric along for dps when other classes will do that better.

    and fyi - i run ac. so this nerf doesnt affect me half as much.

    An interesting challenge, getting into an end-game dungeon with a DO DC with people that I do not know. As it currently stands, and I am not being flippant, a lot of the calls for CR or TONG in the IL-stratified channels do ask for an ACDC. This change, sure, will make them less happy about getting a DODC, but they weren't going to ask for one in the current mod anyway. So the challenge is a bit of a conundrum, because it is going against what I am already doing and what the current meta wants. However, I see your point, the DO DC will be less wanted for being a buffer because they lost that +20% buff with TI. However, I do think that a DO DC still is comparable to other buffers in the 'secondary buffer' spectrum: SW templock and CW MoF. So are they really nuked? Or have they become more comparable to other classes now? For the CW, the MoF is practically the only paragon type accepted into parties. The DC has two paragons to choose from, so it is not as if we are beggars. I have both a CW and DC end-game ready, so I know how much more the DC is wanted than a CW. Learning how to play both paragons just opens up my options, and I am honestly confused why DCs refuse to learn the other half of their class ... whereas a class like the CW is practically man-handled into one paragon in end-game parties.

    Just a small point, but a DO would run BtS usually, and the AC was historically "in-charge of" FF, as the faster animation time allowed the AC to streamline their rotation for AA. PoD was only used conditionally if there was another DC in the party. So this won't be changing much if you were the only DO DC in the party, as you shouldn't have been running FF or PoD anyway.
    Yea I run both a Devine & Anointed like you, and I'm mostly OK, with the vast majority of changes as well. I mean my Devine Damage will actually increase from TI by 5%, then an additional 10% damage boost from DoT damage feat is also possible, certainly a Cleric won't be a TOP DPS Class for sure! Yet I don't think a Cleric was ever designed to do that role either, still a Devine Oracle can still provide very good BUFFs:

    One Daily both Cleric's share boost Damage in a AoE by 20%.
    Devine & Anointed can both share a 10% Light Gift as well in Righteous Tree.
    Devine & Anointed can both share the 10% damage boost from DoT in Righteous Tree.

    More Anointed may however refocus on HEALING after the ~25% Healing boost to that Paragon though.

    So I mean they can still offer some Daily's with Damage Buff's that are significant, just because that Daily Power is Shared by both Paragon's doesn't make it less significant, it just means they need to rotate or plan when to use what. They nerfed Paladin's Healing for Devotion by ~25% and instead gave that to Anointed. So more Anointed Cleric may try to retake back the Healer role, that doesn't mean we won't see still the odd run with 2 Cleric's, but they'll likely be doing different roles possibly. It also doesn't destroy a Paladin's Healing as it likely will still be quite respectable, as it was often in fact far better than Cleric in many cases, and Paladin's still have immunity while holding their shield.

    I honestly as I said yesterday only HOPE people get on PREVIEW, and TRY the builds before they get too critical!
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    vordayn said:


    Finally. Don't make balance choices based on pvp. pvp is dead. there are like 99 pvp players left and thousands of pve players. if you still want to waste your time on pvp it needs to be entirely separate from how pve is handled. pve should be the focus.

    Incorrect!

    PVP is not dead. You just don't play it.

    I've gone into pvp. no one plays it. lol. you get the same 20 ppl hanging out in iwd talking big and then the same couple groups of ppl in the queues. it's dead.

    and I do have an ac load out. I just don't like playing as ac. if you'll look at my signature you'll see it. I have no intention of being only an ac. right now I consider myself a rescue ac. the amount of micromanaging acs capture isn't something i'm up for. (and Yes I say that because It seems like every other time I join a run I get whispered from at least one aggro person telling me what to do. No other class I've played gets treated that way.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    as far as the difference in enchantments. a dedicated do looks different than one or two different enchants. the companion on a ac should be all silvery. a do is going to be azures and ruthless and gigantic. with more of the same on the person.
    Incorrect. With my AC DC, I can achieve 30k recovery without silveries on my companion, which is more than enough for my daily needs. I prefer Draconic to reach the armor penetration cap as I'd still like to do respectable damage with my AC DC in end-game content. This also makes it easy to transition to a DO loadout when I want to.

    While a DO DC would likely slot azures or ruthless, why can't an AC DC benefit from this too? Swapping to an AC loadout even with DO-optimised gear would not make the AC DC suboptimal, unless you were min-maxing or are with a party which only demands BiS toons, which would be unfortunate. No one should be dictating what you should have/wear when speccing to either build.
    you must live a very sheltered life.
    And you are resorting to insults?

    Shame ...

    I thought you were better than this. You are just upset that your preferred playstyle is not going to get the TI +20% buff BY JUST STANDING AROUND. I mean, how lazy are you?
    that is not an insult. that is a tongue in cheek response to you saying that you don't know of anyone dictating what you should or shouldn't wear or use or when or how. micromanaging IS a thing. if you haven't seen it then you must be playing with only a few people



    If we are only using TI we are a very bad DO and people don't want you around. if that is why you think you can just be built however then....

    the reason we're good is because we're also doing empowered bts and hg constantly along with a small amount of dps. and helpful at wills. with this change the ac will be doing bts empowered and because they aren't going to have to worry about exhalt because the double dip into ff will be gone they probably will have time to also throw out hg.

    we have nothing but a paltry extra 10 percent personal dps for the party. there is no one that will prefer a do over ac going forward.



    our dps is not up to par even with a temp lock and ten percent more isn't going to change that LOL


    they need to look at other things than just flat out making TI personal. I"m fine with having to build for it or work for it. they can do additive buffs or make only one power share work at a time. there are a lot of options out there other than nuking us.

    and the only reason you're making this personal is because you are mainly an ac and what I am saying makes sense and you find that TERRIFYING INSIGHT
    LOL. You made this personal about your beloved DO class that is why you are getting defensive and hysterical. " Oh the DO is nuked to the ground". No it isn't. You even described that the DO is much more than TI.

    Gosh. Get your argument straight.

    you are twisting words using emotional manipulation. sorry doesn't work on me. Yes the do is more than ti but everything we do now the AC will be doing.. along with aa which we don't bring to the table. we will be bringing less to the table than any other buff class. and no where near as much dps as other dps classes.

    using words like defensive and hysterical to describe me is subjugation. you're trying to place yourself in a position above me by making my arguments seem irrational and beneath yours. it's a strawman. You'll never make headway in battle against me that way. if you can't win a debate with reason then you've lost. End of.
  • heavensake#5599 heavensake Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    why do you all say 10% damage buff when TI is no longer shared? the damage buff from TI is way more than 10% and well be
    a personal buff.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @heavensake#5599 said:
    > why do you all say 10% damage buff when TI is no longer shared? the damage buff from TI is way more than 10% and well be

    > a personal buff.

    What’s being referred to is the 10% damage resistance debuff that’s replacing the party buff component, which is not nearly as good.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    as far as the difference in enchantments. a dedicated do looks different than one or two different enchants. the companion on a ac should be all silvery. a do is going to be azures and ruthless and gigantic. with more of the same on the person.
    Incorrect. With my AC DC, I can achieve 30k recovery without silveries on my companion, which is more than enough for my daily needs. I prefer Draconic to reach the armor penetration cap as I'd still like to do respectable damage with my AC DC in end-game content. This also makes it easy to transition to a DO loadout when I want to.

    While a DO DC would likely slot azures or ruthless, why can't an AC DC benefit from this too? Swapping to an AC loadout even with DO-optimised gear would not make the AC DC suboptimal, unless you were min-maxing or are with a party which only demands BiS toons, which would be unfortunate. No one should be dictating what you should have/wear when speccing to either build.
    you must live a very sheltered life.
    And you are resorting to insults?

    Shame ...

    I thought you were better than this. You are just upset that your preferred playstyle is not going to get the TI +20% buff BY JUST STANDING AROUND. I mean, how lazy are you?
    that is not an insult. that is a tongue in cheek response to you saying that you don't know of anyone dictating what you should or shouldn't wear or use or when or how. micromanaging IS a thing. if you haven't seen it then you must be playing with only a few people



    If we are only using TI we are a very bad DO and people don't want you around. if that is why you think you can just be built however then....

    the reason we're good is because we're also doing empowered bts and hg constantly along with a small amount of dps. and helpful at wills. with this change the ac will be doing bts empowered and because they aren't going to have to worry about exhalt because the double dip into ff will be gone they probably will have time to also throw out hg.

    we have nothing but a paltry extra 10 percent personal dps for the party. there is no one that will prefer a do over ac going forward.



    our dps is not up to par even with a temp lock and ten percent more isn't going to change that LOL


    they need to look at other things than just flat out making TI personal. I"m fine with having to build for it or work for it. they can do additive buffs or make only one power share work at a time. there are a lot of options out there other than nuking us.

    and the only reason you're making this personal is because you are mainly an ac and what I am saying makes sense and you find that TERRIFYING INSIGHT
    LOL. You made this personal about your beloved DO class that is why you are getting defensive and hysterical. " Oh the DO is nuked to the ground". No it isn't. You even described that the DO is much more than TI.

    Gosh. Get your argument straight.

    you are twisting words using emotional manipulation. sorry doesn't work on me. Yes the do is more than ti but everything we do now the AC will be doing.. along with aa which we don't bring to the table. we will be bringing less to the table than any other buff class. and no where near as much dps as other dps classes.

    using words like defensive and hysterical to describe me is subjugation. you're trying to place yourself in a position above me by making my arguments seem irrational and beneath yours. it's a strawman. You'll never make headway in battle against me that way. if you can't win a debate with reason then you've lost. End of.
    ehh .. you're the one that started slinging insults first, then hiding behind "oh it was tongue in cheek". More like gaslighting, and then turning it around on me.

    You are the manipulator that you describe. I've nothing more to say to you.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    gatorusmc said:


    Also, trying to paint the picture that all the DO does is stand there with TI is insulting. How do you make the leap to ignoring keeping up HG and making sure BTS/FF and Doom are applied?

    If you read my posts, I describe the DO as exactly doing that, providing 100% uptime for HG and BtS and/or PoD. I do this myself when a team needs a DO DC, as I spec BOTH.

    I am referring to Terrifying Insight solely when I said, "you just stand around and give a +20% buff to the whole team", not to the DO as a whole.

    I am positing that a DO will not be relegated to uselessness by having TI changed to a personal +25% damage buff and +10% debuff.

    I am also advocating that the DO DC also should have a change of functionality to make it desirable going into the new Mod, but not providing X% of buffs that an AC does (when Devs make a decision, it is hard to change that track, and they will not listen especially if we attack another, but we can make suggestions to help their vision of the game, and I think that is to differentiate the DO vs AC DCs). These suggestions include improving the DO DC's personal DPS and self-buffing. I also have agreed that TI should keep a bit of its party-buffing capability as @strathkin suggested, while retaining its proposed M15 changes so that the change isn't viewed as so extreme.

    I am NOT trying to make this an AC vs DO contest, but trying to find a way to realise a new path for the DO DC, which many self-selected DO DCs are against, and refuse to listen from another DC. And that is really sad.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    araneax said:

    vordayn said:

    gatorusmc said:


    Also, trying to paint the picture that all the DO does is stand there with TI is insulting. How do you make the leap to ignoring keeping up HG and making sure BTS/FF and Doom are applied?

    If you read my posts, I describe the DO as exactly doing that, providing 100% uptime for HG and BtS and/or PoD.

    I am referring to Terrifying insight solely when I said, "you just stand around and give a +20% buff to the whole team", not to the DO as a whole.

    I am positing that a DO will not be relegated to uselessness by having TI changed to a personal +25% damage buff and +10% debuff.

    I am also advocating that the DO DC also has a change of functionality to make it desirable, but not providing X% of buffs that an AC does. These include improving their personal DPS, self-buffing. I also have suggested that TI keep a bit of it's party-buffing capability while retaining its proposed M15 changes so that the change isn't viewed as so extreme.

    I am NOT trying to make this an AC vs DO contest, but trying to find a way to realise a new path for the DO DC, which many self-selected DO DCs are against, and refuse to listen from another DC. And that is really sad.

    Obviously you do not play competitive end game without the group of chosen people.
    ( not meant as an insult, just an observation )
    Nope. Completely wrong.

    With the time I have left in the game, I do a lot of Random Queues, or group up through Dungeon Channels.

    Now that we are in between mods, it is harder to find people who are not only online, but willing to run that pointless CR due to its cost>reward ratio. And I am bored of TONG/CODG.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    araneax said:


    Your whole argument is that Do will still be on the same level as Ac is.

    Wrong. I am looking to see what the Devs envisage for the DO. A change in functionality perhaps? Certain people are not willing to look past that.

    Have you seen what happened to the CW SS debacle? I understand how it does feel to be wiped out by that. My SS mage was my first character and why I fell in love with this game. It was destroyed. Arguing with me won't change that or how you feel the DO DC is going. Proposing new paths for the DO and helping Devs see your point of view to help them with their vision might. We will not be going back to the x2DC meta, and you know it.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    araneax said:


    You play AC. You have your gear.. companions and everything is specked for that AC.
    Correct? If you take something that is bugged and use it, in an end game content , people will kick you.
    They do not want noobies.
    You blame Firecat for saying honestly what he thinks, but you do not realize, people here maximized their efficiency as DO Clerics, by spending millions, so their performance was in all the ways on 100 %, . Just like you did.
    And many of the people who are commenting here, do know what they are talking about.

    Firecat was suggesting that the AC be nerfed. Come on. When you say you have invested millions into your DO, you KNOW that the AC is even more than that. Why do you support the inter-DC fight?

    TI changes were introduced about 3-4 mods ago. The DO didn't always used to be like that. There has been an explosion of DCs since that change, you seriously can't believe that is healthy for other classes to get a spot in a dungeon run when the DO DC trumps other support?
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    gatorusmc said:


    Also, trying to paint the picture that all the DO does is stand there with TI is insulting. How do you make the leap to ignoring keeping up HG and making sure BTS/FF and Doom are applied?

    If you read my posts, I describe the DO as exactly doing that, providing 100% uptime for HG and BtS and/or PoD. I do this myself when a team needs a DO DC, as I spec BOTH.

    I am referring to Terrifying Insight solely when I said, "you just stand around and give a +20% buff to the whole team", not to the DO as a whole.

    I am positing that a DO will not be relegated to uselessness by having TI changed to a personal +25% damage buff and +10% debuff.

    I am also advocating that the DO DC also should have a change of functionality to make it desirable going into the new Mod, but not providing X% of buffs that an AC does (when Devs make a decision, it is hard to change that track, and they will not listen especially if we attack another, but we can make suggestions to help their vision of the game, and I think that is to differentiate the DO vs AC DCs). These suggestions include improving the DO DC's personal DPS and self-buffing. I also have agreed that TI should keep a bit of its party-buffing capability as @strathkin suggested, while retaining its proposed M15 changes so that the change isn't viewed as so extreme.

    I am NOT trying to make this an AC vs DO contest, but trying to find a way to realise a new path for the DO DC, which many self-selected DO DCs are against, and refuse to listen from another DC. And that is really sad.
    Once these changes go live, no one will be asking for DODCs in any of the channels, they will all be asking for ACDC and probably 16k+, maybe 17k+. I guarantee it.

    This means that DODC won't get any runs except random queues, and then the only thing that will stop ppl kicking them is the cool down. Whilst the DODC might not be completely useless, they will not compare favorably to the ACDC or any of the other buffers - that is the problem, it is the relative usefulness or lack thereof. And an ACDC needs a lot of base power to be desirable.

    DODC used to be a way for new DC's to get into runs and then gear up so they can switch to ACDC, that will be taken away from all new DCs. They will hit 12-14K (depending on whether they are in a guild with full boons) and then no one will want them in runs.

    This will absolutely achieve the Devs goals of killing off the 2x DC runs but it wont stop the meta of only taking one DPS. Bad decision if you ask me
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    araneax said:


    It is like this from the moment this game began. And i know. Cos i was there.
    People want to win. Having a half-a**ed cleric will certainly not achieve that.
    But having a full specked AC cleric that was not nerfd will .
    Again you are already aware of this , so i am not sure why do i have to explain such logical things to you.
    It is like when people yell " murder" and " fire ".
    Logically people will react.
    And if the performance of a DO will be less then AC, and we both know it will, DO will go into the dusty drawer, like many classes before it.
    It will just not be needed any more.

    If you are running with people who would kick you because of that, then you are running with the wrong people.

    And yes, perhaps you are experiencing what the SS CW mages felt since Mod 6. I have been there. I have felt that. Don't try to say that I have not experienced it. I am not hoping that on DO DCs, but you already said yourself, when Devs make a decision they don't change their minds easily (re: the feedback of AC DC changes). Hence you should be looking at new paths, not holding onto the old. I have been there with SS CW, need I remind you again, it isn't fun. But attacking me won't change anything.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    araneax said:

    vordayn said:

    gatorusmc said:


    Also, trying to paint the picture that all the DO does is stand there with TI is insulting. How do you make the leap to ignoring keeping up HG and making sure BTS/FF and Doom are applied?

    If you read my posts, I describe the DO as exactly doing that, providing 100% uptime for HG and BtS and/or PoD.

    I am referring to Terrifying insight solely when I said, "you just stand around and give a +20% buff to the whole team", not to the DO as a whole.

    I am positing that a DO will not be relegated to uselessness by having TI changed to a personal +25% damage buff and +10% debuff.

    I am also advocating that the DO DC also has a change of functionality to make it desirable, but not providing X% of buffs that an AC does. These include improving their personal DPS, self-buffing. I also have suggested that TI keep a bit of it's party-buffing capability while retaining its proposed M15 changes so that the change isn't viewed as so extreme.

    I am NOT trying to make this an AC vs DO contest, but trying to find a way to realise a new path for the DO DC, which many self-selected DO DCs are against, and refuse to listen from another DC. And that is really sad.

    Obviously you do not play competitive end game without the group of chosen people.
    ( not meant as an insult, just an observation )
    Nope. Completely wrong.

    With the time I have left in the game, I do a lot of Random Queues, or group up through Dungeon Channels.

    Now that we are in between mods, it is harder to find people who are not only online, but willing to run that pointless CR due to its cost>reward ratio.
    vordayn said:

    araneax said:


    Your whole argument is that Do will still be on the same level as Ac is.

    Wrong. I am looking to see what the Devs envisage for the DO. A change in functionality perhaps? Certain people are not willing to look past that.

    Have you seen what happened to the CW SS debacle? I understand how it does feel to be wiped out by that. My SS mage was my first character and why I fell in love with this game. It was destroyed. Arguing with me won't change that or how you feel the DO DC is going. Proposing new paths for the DO and helping Devs see your point of view to help them with their vision might. We will not be going back to the x2DC meta, and you know it.
    No one said we are going back to it. And yes i have seen what happened in that debacle.

    But this is not something we are seeing for the first time.
    We actually know exactly how this will end.
    We have seen this a 1000 times before with other classes, starting with TF and SW.
    People will try to adapt. Some will and some will not.
    Do is going where devs want it to go. But you can not expect people to accept looking at their favorite class going down , without getting at least a bit angry. You felt it, you should know exactly how this people here feel.

    You can not expect people to just forget about their favorite class and do something else.
    But it is what this people are asked to do.
    Ofc they will be sad and feel frustrated they spent time and effort , years of it, into something going poof in a few seconds.

    Devs already know exactly where they want this class.
    To stop 2 DCS meta they are ready to sacrifice a class.
    Just like before.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • ladypeanut66ladypeanut66 Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    I dont understand the intentions behind making every class a secondary DPS. The meta only needs a DPS that is buffed to the sky and nukes everything in their way. Hell, if the tank and support did not need to damage at all to provide the buffs and protection and aggro management, that would be okay too xD With TONG, I feel this meta is really stablished since you need only one DPS for the first boss fight... If they want to change the meta and make rainbow party compositions (Im all in for these one) maybe they should not make a fight when the damage of one guy is basically all the damage the boss takes.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    araneax said:

    vordayn said:

    araneax said:

    vordayn said:

    gatorusmc said:


    Also, trying to paint the picture that all the DO does is stand there with TI is insulting. How do you make the leap to ignoring keeping up HG and making sure BTS/FF and Doom are applied?

    If you read my posts, I describe the DO as exactly doing that, providing 100% uptime for HG and BtS and/or PoD.

    I am referring to Terrifying insight solely when I said, "you just stand around and give a +20% buff to the whole team", not to the DO as a whole.

    I am positing that a DO will not be relegated to uselessness by having TI changed to a personal +25% damage buff and +10% debuff.

    I am also advocating that the DO DC also has a change of functionality to make it desirable, but not providing X% of buffs that an AC does. These include improving their personal DPS, self-buffing. I also have suggested that TI keep a bit of it's party-buffing capability while retaining its proposed M15 changes so that the change isn't viewed as so extreme.

    I am NOT trying to make this an AC vs DO contest, but trying to find a way to realise a new path for the DO DC, which many self-selected DO DCs are against, and refuse to listen from another DC. And that is really sad.

    Obviously you do not play competitive end game without the group of chosen people.
    ( not meant as an insult, just an observation )
    Nope. Completely wrong.

    With the time I have left in the game, I do a lot of Random Queues, or group up through Dungeon Channels.

    Now that we are in between mods, it is harder to find people who are not only online, but willing to run that pointless CR due to its cost>reward ratio.
    vordayn said:

    araneax said:


    Your whole argument is that Do will still be on the same level as Ac is.

    Wrong. I am looking to see what the Devs envisage for the DO. A change in functionality perhaps? Certain people are not willing to look past that.

    Have you seen what happened to the CW SS debacle? I understand how it does feel to be wiped out by that. My SS mage was my first character and why I fell in love with this game. It was destroyed. Arguing with me won't change that or how you feel the DO DC is going. Proposing new paths for the DO and helping Devs see your point of view to help them with their vision might. We will not be going back to the x2DC meta, and you know it.
    No one said we are going back to it. And yes i have seen what happened in that debacle.

    But this is not something we are seeing for the first time.
    We actually know exactly how this will end.
    We have seen this a 1000 times before with other classes, starting with TF and SW.
    People will try to adapt. Some will and some will not.
    Do is going where devs want it to go. But you can not expect people to accept looking at their favorite class going down , without getting at least a bit angry. You felt it, you should know exactly how this people here feel.

    You can not expect people to just forget about their favorite class and do something else.
    But it is what this people are asked to do.
    Ofc they will be sad and feel frustrated they spent time and effort , years of it, into something going poof in a few seconds.

    Devs already know exactly where they want this class.
    To stop 2 DCS meta they are ready to sacrifice a class.
    Just like before.
    Initially I tried conversing with the @thefiresidecat showing how the DO DC is more than just TI, and that gear differences between AC and DO are not game breaking. I can understand and empathise when a class does not want to play a particular paragon. When the SS CW storm was breaking, so to speak, I viewed the MoFs in the forums as 'traitors' and 'selfish'. What I didn't realise then, as I do now, that nothing that I could have said in those previous posts could have changed the direction the Devs were going to take. It has taken me about 2 years to get over that, after 2 failed attempts at quitting this game, to try out the MoF. I have built my CW now as a MoF hybrid specialist (getting towards being a MoF specialist, not completely BiS, since I could not make myself go FULL support at the expense of doing at least a fraction of the DPS I used to).

    My point is, the DO is undergoing a change. People are upset. But when I, who plays both as AC and DO, suggest that DO can still be effective ACs, I am mocked and ridiculed and they say that I do not understand. That is not right. I tried to write down the difference in absolute power derived from AC- or DO-specialised gear between the two, and they are not that massive. There has been hyperbole saying, "I will change to a new class", but seriously, you will go through the campaigns for boons, getting gear and artifacts to show your displeasure? A more pragmatic approach would be to look at it objectively, and see what can be improved. I like the suggestions to help, that @strathkin and @jazzfong have made. They are constructive. I do not like the endless complaining, AC bashing, calling out for AC nerfs, and personal attacks (which I did not start). And you think that I also would not get upset because of that?
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    vordayn said:



    If you are running with people who would kick you because of that, then you are running with the wrong people.

    And yes, perhaps you are experiencing what the SS CW mages felt since Mod 6. I have been there. I have felt that. Don't try to say that I have not experienced it. I am not hoping that on DO DCs, but you already said yourself, when Devs make a decision they don't change their minds easily (re: the feedback of AC DC changes). Hence you should be looking at new paths, not holding onto the old. I have been there with SS CW, need I remind you again, it isn't fun. But attacking me won't change anything.

    I am not trying to attack you at all.
    If that seems like i am , then i apologize for it.
    You made an observation. And i tried to explain to you how things really are.
    There is no " running with wrong people " if you want to do dungeons.

    I also did not say you did not experience it. On the contrary. Refer to my previous comment.

    And again.. did SWs have a new path , back then? No.. and you know they did not.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    I don't see them putting in the effort for a whole new path for DOs anytime soon, if ever (Honestly if they were going to do it right, it would already be done) . Looking at the way they went about getting towards their goal of changing the meta (which they really didn't), I can only only conclude that they simply went with implementing whatever was easiest without regard to who (and how) it would affect. They might as well just give out an unbind all token and call it done. That would be the same amount of effort and thought going into the fix.

    I don't think it is an AC vs DO contest. To me, AC was always the preferred single cleric choice with AA and I have no problem with that. I still enjoyed the play style and went strictly DO (we seemed to be at a pretty balanced point where any class was welcome). Now DO is basically regulated solo and even if you want to change to AC there is a substantial cost (to the majority of players) to get all the comps, gear, artifacts, etc swapped over. The nerf is so bad, there really needs to be a warning to players investing in the DO line right now. They really need to purchase everything for an AC spec and if they want to DO, be a half arsed one and roll with AC gear, changing only powers and feats.

    I could be wrong, between the nerfs, salvage changes and the already upset player base enough people might decide to stop supporting the game monetarily to effect some real change (but I doubt it).

  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    vordayn said:



    Initially I tried conversing with the @thefiresidecat showing how the DO DC is more than just TI, and that gear differences between AC and DO are not game breaking. I can understand and empathise when a class does not want to play a particular paragon. When the SS CW storm was breaking, so to speak, I viewed the MoFs in the forums as 'traitors' and 'selfish'. What I didn't realise then, as I do now, that nothing that I could have said in those previous posts could have changed the direction the Devs were going to take. It has taken me about 2 years to get over that, after 2 failed attempts at quitting this game, to try out the MoF. I have built my CW now as a MoF hybrid specialist (getting towards being a MoF specialist, not completely BiS, since I could not make myself go FULL support at the expense of doing at least a fraction of the DPS I used to).

    My point is, the DO is undergoing a change. People are upset. But when I, who plays both as AC and DO, suggest that DO can still be effective ACs, I am mocked and ridiculed and they say that I do not understand. That is not right. I tried to write down the difference in absolute power derived from AC- or DO-specialised gear between the two, and they are not that massive. There has been hyperbole saying, "I will change to a new class", but seriously, you will go through the campaigns for boons, getting gear and artifacts to show your displeasure? A more pragmatic approach would be to look at it objectively, and see what can be improved. I like the suggestions to help, that @strathkin and @jazzfong have made. They are constructive. I do not like the endless complaining, AC bashing, calling out for AC nerfs, and personal attacks (which I did not start). And you think that I also would not get upset because of that?

    As an AC i am not pleased that people are asking for a nerf of an AC class.
    But i am sure Firecat did not mean it , in that way.
    As a DO i am sad my great character will not be as amazing since i tried my best to make it as competitive as possible.
    I do not play other classes then clerics, even if i have them . So i can see why people got upset.

    People need time to cool off and see what they can or can not do.
    You are kinda putting salt on their wound right now, even if you are trying to do a good thing and help.
    I can understand where you are coming from, but you need to give people time to get over this first.
    Just like you needed time before. And i did so as well.
    People will accept it, or they will not, just give them time to be sad first.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • pez222pez222 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The Devs argument is that the 2 DC meta in ENDGAME dungeons is a problem which Is fair enough , But they fix this by targeting 1paragon path, causing a 1 path meta instead , then they justify it by saying oh but the extra dps will make your solo experience much better ,, I thought the idea was Balance ? I can no longer choose what path I play endgame I must play AC or boot, if I just switch to AC on my DO geared toon will I perform as expected? ,NO, do I have the time, money or patience to re-gear my toon NO !

    You do realise that this is ENDGAME players you are affecting with this , how Is an easier solo experience any benefit to me or any other end gamer ? Essentially you have made a class build which some people thoroughly enjoy playing far more than the other options, no longer viable end game . for me personally it's a bit of a kick in the teeth and I will be thinking seriously of leaving NWO behind.
  • oqupo#0811 oqupo Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    For me running dungeons is fun, doing quests/campaigns is much less. I'm not doing that for RAD, I have meanwhile millions of that and don't need any more for this year, lol.

    My concern here is the waiting time to get a run started.
    If I sign up solo for a random queue, like REQ or RAQ:
    - as a dps I have to wait 20 minutes and up to an hour and more, even in prime hour times.
    - as a healer (dc or devo) I dont have to wait long, often I get an immediate call.
    - as a tank there are low waiting times too, like as a healer.
    This reflects on the role bonus, which is almost every time either healer or tank.

    Almost the same in the LFG channel:
    In 4 of 5 searches for the last position in a team a tank or a dc is needed, which causes a lot of team leaders to spam the LFG chat.

    Even the DO popularity is high at the moment of mod 14, it still isn't far enough to get all the dps classes running dungeons for daily rad and gear. It might be true, that a 2 DC meta has influence on that, but i doubt that most runs are build premade and even if, it takes them much longer to get to the dungeon, then solo queing.

    Knewing that from other games, i started Neverwinter with a tank, a paladin. That was a good decision, but sad to say, the OP playstyle is not how I like to play a tank and therefore I started other classes to find the one i love.
    I found it, the class I love to play is sw. But there was the waiting time problem... and I have had a lot of boring time standing around to just get the gear I want or need. I still dont get, why a templock can't que as a healer....
    That's and the possibilities of playing a cleric as a "cheap" DO, getting me into tong or other groups introduced me to play a dc.
    It helped me a lot to gear up my other toons and because I can run dungeons in a row without much waiting at all, it became the class I'm playing now most of the time. Meanwhile my dc is my best toon with a little bit more of 16k and thanks god i did go the ac route, while I like to play as a do from time to time and I was planing to get gear and enhancements for that. But this seems to be obsolethe now.

    Cause of the "cheap" possibilities to have a DC DO as a second char to gear up the main, there are a lot of DO available for teams to be build and fill the queues.
    The question is, what will happen now?
    Will there still be people creating a dc for gearing up the main? Will "cheap" low cost AC DC's fill the gap? What will happen to the RAQ and REQ groups with a nerfed dc do? A lot of fbi, msp, tong and cr runs are failing at the moment, most time cause the damage dealers don't have what's needed. With less buffs this can get a real challenge^^.
    Will the better alternative now be to create a pala and having both options, tank or healer, available.
    Or will people just stay on their main, leading to having less healers be on the LFG pool.

    I hope that this change not just increase the waiting time for all players.
    In my eyes nerfing healers is just contraproductive, as they are the ones needed to build a team.

    Getting rid of TI as a lazy passive high team buff is a good idea in my eyes. But, there should be active ways to buff or debuff, that not depend on gear, to make this a good replacement. Prophecy of doom as a do only power would be a good choice for that. But the planed changes aren't what is needed :anguished:
    Btw: An oversight buff scenario for do dcs could be recovery to speed up the teams perfomance. What do you think?

  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited September 2018


    Btw: An oversight buff scenario for do dcs could be recovery to speed up the teams perfomance. What do you think?

    We had that...personal recovery... so you could do your skills faster.. can not remember what mod was it any more.. it did not work as intended.. and it was said it was too op.. it was nerfed ...lol
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

Sign In or Register to comment.