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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User

    > @onlymat said:

    > I repeat it again: If the devs don't want to have 2 dc's in 5 man dungeons - stop it.

    > Change the code that you can't start dungeons if there are 2 dc's in the party. There is no need to kill on Paragon.

    > The do dc's today have a much harder time then AC dc's because do can 't protect.

    >

    > What role you devs want to have for the do dc?



    I was thinking that to. But then how can we do fun runs in private Q ?



    I'm thinkin some of you guys are missing the whole point here. Content and dungeons at end game weree too easy and fast with 2 DC meta so I'm glad and I think it's about time they end it. DO was buffed few mods ago in expense of the AC that was nerfed with AA being 50% effective of what it used to be, making DOs more viable buffer when TI was added as a group buff. The DO is still not as good as AC at true endgame, but its quite close there. I'm glad they chose not to nerf the AC further cause single DC runs without AC DC would've been tougher than single DO DC runs. I have both specs at end game and without a doubt the AC is much better solo buffer and I welcome everyone to try it themselves.



    So even if they kept the DO buffs and just prevented people with going with a 2 DCs, most parties would still prefer an endgame AC over endgame DO (if they know what they're doing :) )



    As DO you'll have to make some changes but who hasn't during this game. Every class has been nerfed/boosted at some point. Its not as big as you make of it though. All the enchants are tradable so you could trade already whatever you're using for Radiants and Black Ice on yourself and Silveries on companion. Also insignas you could trade or sell and get new relevant ones. Most of the main gear is pretty free to have, the rings you have to farm, weapons you don't need to switch. Main work is Belt and Neck and new artifacts if you have pure DPS ones. You could work with the tiger\Con Artist for now so no need to switch main companion. The other companions give minimal gain in power so that's not a huge priority down the list. 2 of those comps are new for the ACs as well, so now when you switch be glad that you didn't upgrade 300 power comps just to have comps with 700 power few mods later. (did I say every class gets adjustments ?) Those 300 power companions are useless for AC now as well. The game constantly changes and players have to make readjustment.



    The main issue here is that DO didn't use to need to have real gear to be efficent so low level DOs had easy times getting parties. The way I see it, end game DOs shouldn't have any issues changing to AC. The problem is the low level DOs which will become low level ACs which will have hard time getting groups.


    "So even if they kept the DO buffs and just prevented people with going with a 2 DCs, most parties would still prefer an endgame AC over endgame DO (if they know what they're doing)"


    That is not necessarily true at all.
    Depends on the content and the party composition. DO has greater DPS boost potential then AC.

    " DOs shouldn't have any issues changing to AC".
    Wow. Yeah... No. That is not true.
    Have you made an optimized AC before? The gear is completely different.

    I have both AC and DO gear/loadout. AC was expensive af to gear up.
    I could afford it after 5 years of enchant refining. The average or newer player cannot.
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • alphastreamalphastream Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 205 Arc User
    If you are going to tone down the DO in group play, please tone down the AC a similar amount. We went through a time when only the AC was valid for group play, and it was not a good thing for the game or the player base. Please don't turn a support class that has only two options into one of them being solo play.

    This is particularly an issue because right now the AC is a build that generally requires a big time investment, but your DO build is viable for newer players. Removing that option really hurts casual players disproportionately. The DC needs both class options to be fully functional and fun to play.

    It is also a huge blow to DO players (I've been a DO player since Beta) to have big changes that invalidates or lessens all the time and cost they have put into their gear and other choices, especially when the game does not require that to happen.
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  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Member Posts: 248 Arc User

    If you are going to tone down the DO in group play, please tone down the AC a similar amount. We went through a time when only the AC was valid for group play, and it was not a good thing for the game or the player base. Please don't turn a support class that has only two options into one of them being solo play.

    This is particularly an issue because right now the AC is a build that generally requires a big time investment, but your DO build is viable for newer players. Removing that option really hurts casual players disproportionately. The DC needs both class options to be fully functional and fun to play.

    It is also a huge blow to DO players (I've been a DO player since Beta) to have big changes that invalidates or lessens all the time and cost they have put into their gear and other choices, especially when the game does not require that to happen.

    I don't think that "You nerfed one path so nerf second one too" is best choice there :) Especially like you said "AC is a build that generally requires a big time investment".

    I'm on fence with those changes. I liked that DC DO was easy and fast way to have character wanted in end game. On other hand it was weird to have class that could have better buffing standing still in group than 18k DC AC with lots of expensive gear. It also create "the only good" way to play class - TI was mandatory to slot. But I don't think current nerf is good solution - if we want DC to still have two viable paths in end game.

    From everything everyone proposed so far I think best solution was @adinosii idea with exclusive powers and @thefabricant with leavign ff alone and revamping bts.
  • lordnagy#1603 lordnagy Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    If these poorly thought changes go live, I cannot wait to come back to these boards or Reddit and see all the gripes about not enough DCs available for endgame...like we literally just had a few years back.

    I will not be switching to AC. I am not spending time or money building a new character because you devs don’t like a certain meta. Well guess what, you WILL GET ANOTHER TO REPLACE THIS ONE.

    I’ll gladly take my interests elsewhere. It’s clear the devs have an idea where they want this game to go; but it’s also clear they don’t care who they <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over to get there. DIVERSTITY...YAY!!! Now give out the participation trophies...
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    If you are going to tone down the DO in group play, please tone down the AC a similar amount. We went through a time when only the AC was valid for group play, and it was not a good thing for the game or the player base. Please don't turn a support class that has only two options into one of them being solo play.

    This is particularly an issue because right now the AC is a build that generally requires a big time investment, but your DO build is viable for newer players. Removing that option really hurts casual players disproportionately. The DC needs both class options to be fully functional and fun to play.

    It is also a huge blow to DO players (I've been a DO player since Beta) to have big changes that invalidates or lessens all the time and cost they have put into their gear and other choices, especially when the game does not require that to happen.

    I don't think that "You nerfed one path so nerf second one too" is best choice there :) Especially like you said "AC is a build that generally requires a big time investment".

    I'm on fence with those changes. I liked that DC DO was easy and fast way to have character wanted in end game. On other hand it was weird to have class that could have better buffing standing still in group than 18k DC AC with lots of expensive gear. It also create "the only good" way to play class - TI was mandatory to slot. But I don't think current nerf is good solution - if we want DC to still have two viable paths in end game.

    From everything everyone proposed so far I think best solution was @adinosii idea with exclusive powers and @thefabricant with leavign ff alone and revamping bts.
    I'm not exactly sure how the double dip for exhaultation works but there is an exploit of some sort along with ff in it's current state. pretty sure that's why they did what they did. also power share along with the OP powershare is pretty potent. I think nerfing both ac and changing (not killing) do TI to be something you build for that changes with level is probably the way to go. Yes AC is expensive to build and I don't think people should be left out on the street. it should be tweaked not nuked imo. (as one possible path) that would be more along the lines of balance than just nuking either side.
    if they're gonna force the issue you must only have one dc.. they need to make both paths equally viable.
  • eliasar#2396 eliasar Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    Why touching DC DO that much anyway? Nerfing TI is auto-kick for any DC daring to not play AC. Person who thought these balances are a good idea deserves to get fired. This is almost as bad as nerfing trs. I fear to look to the rest of "balance" topics.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The Devs clearly have the 2-DC meta firmly within their sights and are actively trying to do something about it.

    Terrifying insight was not a party-wide buff a few mods ago, so clearly they are tweaking it back and forth to adjust the popular party compositions.

    These changes are a step towards making the DC a secondary DPS char, but I believe that even with these changes the DO DC will still probably be a tertiary DPS character. A DO DC can still provide HG to the group, and Prophecy of Doom, so they still can contribute effectively in a 10-man team.

    I think the DO DC should still have more buffs to make them provide even more damage than is current with this preview revamp.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    meirami said:

    Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.

    We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.

    those of us who are saying that are saying it as a means of compromise. we're asking not to be nuked and nerfed instead. make both sides equal instead of destroying one side. if nerf they must. (honestly I'd rather they just left the dc as it is. I think we're in an ok place.) although I'm all for them cleaning up the double dip exhault exploit because I've seen a lot of aggression around that.

    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
  • reaper#3644 reaper Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    > @meirami said:
    > Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.
    >
    > We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.

    It's not about nerfing both. but giving a option to tweak a path that has a more powerful buff at end game and to make The do/ac buffs not stack.

    The dev's nerfed bonding stone's because of power creep( they say anyway) but put more power out with gear and higher enchants.Then ac dc's and op's mutiply this through powershare. Dosen't make much since does it.

    Now why not make AA put out a 10% dmg buff with cc imun instead of powershare. Then you also give ac dc alot more freedom with gear choice and not just picking things that give the most base power to share.

    The dev's are gonna do what they want to do.I have already been looking at other classes because I'm not going back to ac. So if/when the changes take place I will walk away from dc altogether. If I'm going to start over I'll do it with a toon I enjoy playing or find something else to play time will tell.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    Burying DO wouldn't have even been relevant if they would do the right thing and change buffs to additive to get rid of the 4-support meta.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    > @meirami said:

    > Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.

    >

    > We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.



    It's not about nerfing both. but giving a option to tweak a path that has a more powerful buff at end game and to make The do/ac buffs not stack.



    The dev's nerfed bonding stone's because of power creep( they say anyway) but put more power out with gear and higher enchants.Then ac dc's and op's mutiply this through powershare. Dosen't make much since does it.



    Now why not make AA put out a 10% dmg buff with cc imun instead of powershare. Then you also give ac dc alot more freedom with gear choice and not just picking things that give the most base power to share.



    The dev's are gonna do what they want to do.I have already been looking at other classes because I'm not going back to ac. So if/when the changes take place I will walk away from dc altogether. If I'm going to start over I'll do it with a toon I enjoy playing or find something else to play time will tell.

    It really is poor form that a DO is a attacking an AC: infighting within a class! :s

    The option to spec with loadouts means that AC is within your capability, even though it does require a bit more investment with gear.

    And you say you are going to change classes - what with an investment in gear anyway!? Can you not detect that irony?

    One does not need to be a maximal powersharer to benefit with AC. The premise of having rank 14 radiants and all power gear/artifacts is not a necessity to being a good AC. Correct choice of powers, feats, boons, rotations are what is required. It will require learning, but does that mean it is inconceivably difficult (or off putting?) that you are going to ditch a class? :(
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vordayn said:

    > @meirami said:

    > Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.

    >

    > We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.



    It's not about nerfing both. but giving a option to tweak a path that has a more powerful buff at end game and to make The do/ac buffs not stack.



    The dev's nerfed bonding stone's because of power creep( they say anyway) but put more power out with gear and higher enchants.Then ac dc's and op's mutiply this through powershare. Dosen't make much since does it.



    Now why not make AA put out a 10% dmg buff with cc imun instead of powershare. Then you also give ac dc alot more freedom with gear choice and not just picking things that give the most base power to share.



    The dev's are gonna do what they want to do.I have already been looking at other classes because I'm not going back to ac. So if/when the changes take place I will walk away from dc altogether. If I'm going to start over I'll do it with a toon I enjoy playing or find something else to play time will tell.

    It really is poor form that a DO is a attacking an AC: infighting within a class! :s

    The option to spec with loadouts means that AC is within your capability, even though it does require a bit more investment with gear.

    And you say you are going to change classes - what with an investment in gear anyway!? Can you not detect that irony?

    One does not need to be a maximal powersharer to benefit with AC. The premise of having rank 14 radiants and all power gear/artifacts is not a necessity to being a good AC. Correct choice of powers, feats, boons, rotations are what is required. It will require learning, but does that mean it is inconceivably difficult (or off putting?) that you are going to ditch a class? :(
    because the play style and purpose of an ac is entirely different than a do. if you have to buy all new gear you might as well pick a play style closer to the do, no? Also nearly any other class in the game is going to be cheaper than an ac to gear up for if you were already a Do because you can at least take your enchants with you. you have to start entirely from scratch if you want to be an ac from do.

    ac's and do's are both dcs but they're as different as night and day. nuking one and leaving the other intact is not ok.
  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    @thefiresidecat

    Nerfing AC powershare is worst solution. It was nerfed several times and now you need very high power to compete with DC do buffs. Of course AC give various different utilities too bit DC do also have its perks (like 2nd dps.. but people rarelly utilitize their DC that well).

    I dont believe that any class should have buff that good without any drawback like TI. Including paladins Aura of Courage. Different approach:

    TI
    After dealing critical strike grant nearby allies 20% dmg buff for 5s.

    You could further revamp it by giving your_crit/5 buff instead. For example someone with 100% crit chance give 20% buff and someone with 30% give 6% buff.

    OR

    TI
    Grant nearby allies 20% dmg buff but increase their dmg taken by 50%.


    Basically give some drawback or requirment to power.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:



    Will these two ever reach the perfect harmony balance again?

    Is this a bad time to meme on people?


    Kinda funny that they talk about balance between paragons and so on...

    GWF: no one uses IV, sentinel or Instigator
    TR: Whisperknife is as useful as a dead dog nailed to an armchair.
    DC: The only class that had 2 actually viable paths.
    OP: Prot is getting phased out due to a certain path of another class I won't mention.
    GF: No one uses IV, protector and Tactician are redundant, not because Conqueror is so good, but because other 2 are HAMSTER
    HR: PF is pretty much the last pick for any sort of buffing. SW is pretty good for dps, but that's about how much I know about HR.
    SW: DPS dead for literally mods over mods. Brought back templock, what does seem good, but on the other hand, that means entire class was completely borked.
    CW: MoF has the same issue as PF. It has buffs and debuffs, but inferior to everything else.

    I'll create a copypasta for all of ya:

    BY TRYING TO ESCAPE 2x DC META, THEY CREATED ANOTHER META.

    Ya fix those metas by making other classes as good as the one that's creating the meta, not nerfing the living HAMSTER out of the meta. Because that way you just HAMSTER literally everyone off. And if buffing MoF, Templock, Pathfinder HR(...) isn't good (and trust me, the "buffs" you made to renegade are a whole new level of fail, it's like stepping on a rake that slapped you in the face, and the rake has a grenade taped to it), then find a middle ground.

    Don't destroy a class. If you want diversity you don't kill the one thing that made the class diverse. Now it's literally just Righteous AC or go home.
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Divinity At-wills:
    Punishing Light and Soothing Light aren't used because they eat up divinity. DCs want that divine power to build up stacks for whatever they are empowering. Increasing healing or damage of divinity at-wills won't make them more desirable because DCs already have better tools for both and divine power has a far more important use: buffing our encounter powers.

    Heroic feats:
    We have been asking for years for some of our sillier heroic feats and class features to be improved. Here's a short list of some of the worst that haven't been looked at since beta:

    Initiate of the Faith: .2/.4/.6/.8/1% power's worth of additional critical chance. That's about 1.6% extra crit when you are near BiS if you invest 5 points in it. Come on.
    Sooth and Battlewise: You create less threat. Even if it works, it's useless.
    Templar's Domain: Nowhere does this heroic feat tell you it's only active 5 seconds out of 5 minutes and randomly. This is a trap.


    Also, we would really like it if someone fixed our dodge. It's now shorter and stuttery.
    Post edited by meirami on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    @thefiresidecat



    Nerfing AC powershare is worst solution. It was nerfed several times and now you need very high power to compete with DC do buffs. Of course AC give various different utilities too bit DC do also have its perks (like 2nd dps.. but people rarelly utilitize their DC that well).



    I dont believe that any class should have buff that good without any drawback like TI. Including paladins Aura of Courage. Different approach:



    TI

    After dealing critical strike grant nearby allies 20% dmg buff for 5s.



    You could further revamp it by giving your_crit/5 buff instead. For example someone with 100% crit chance give 20% buff and someone with 30% give 6% buff.



    OR



    TI

    Grant nearby allies 20% dmg buff but increase their dmg taken by 50%.





    Basically give some drawback or requirment to power.

    I said if you're going to nerf one you should nerf both to make them equal. as it stands ac is far superior to do. with what they have suggested. power share is a bit overboard with the op also providing it. it should be looked at before showing nuclear destruction on the do. I'd be ok if they had actually left the do at a place equal to the ac but they did not.

    and giving a buff but giving 50 percent more damage taken would be terrible and also a death knell for dos. unless aa gave power share but also made you take 50% more damage
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    vordayn said:

    > @meirami said:

    > Clerics are probably the only class in the game who, when getting nerfed, ask to be nerfed some more. Guys, just because Divine Oracle is getting nerfed out of group pve, we don't need to beg for AC to become garbage, too... unless all of us want to start another class.

    >

    > We shouldn't fight within ourselves just because some people prefer to play AC and others DO.



    It's not about nerfing both. but giving a option to tweak a path that has a more powerful buff at end game and to make The do/ac buffs not stack.



    The dev's nerfed bonding stone's because of power creep( they say anyway) but put more power out with gear and higher enchants.Then ac dc's and op's mutiply this through powershare. Dosen't make much since does it.



    Now why not make AA put out a 10% dmg buff with cc imun instead of powershare. Then you also give ac dc alot more freedom with gear choice and not just picking things that give the most base power to share.



    The dev's are gonna do what they want to do.I have already been looking at other classes because I'm not going back to ac. So if/when the changes take place I will walk away from dc altogether. If I'm going to start over I'll do it with a toon I enjoy playing or find something else to play time will tell.

    It really is poor form that a DO is a attacking an AC: infighting within a class! :s

    The option to spec with loadouts means that AC is within your capability, even though it does require a bit more investment with gear.

    And you say you are going to change classes - what with an investment in gear anyway!? Can you not detect that irony?

    One does not need to be a maximal powersharer to benefit with AC. The premise of having rank 14 radiants and all power gear/artifacts is not a necessity to being a good AC. Correct choice of powers, feats, boons, rotations are what is required. It will require learning, but does that mean it is inconceivably difficult (or off putting?) that you are going to ditch a class? :(
    because the play style and purpose of an ac is entirely different than a do. if you have to buy all new gear you might as well pick a play style closer to the do, no? Also nearly any other class in the game is going to be cheaper than an ac to gear up for if you were already a Do because you can at least take your enchants with you. you have to start entirely from scratch if you want to be an ac from do.

    ac's and do's are both dcs but they're as different as night and day. nuking one and leaving the other intact is not ok.
    I play both DO and AC. And I do not see them as night and day. In fact, more of my personal play time is a DO, whereas in parties I mix the two depending on what part of the dungeon I am running, or if there is another cleric (usually in 10-person content). To me, as I have played them both, I see them as two powerful sides of a DC, and no, I do not have two sets of gear for both. That is not necessary, unless you are with a group that is very picky on having BiS toons. The Mod 15 changes will not change my preference for a DO in certain instances, in fact, they are being personally strengthened. Solo play will be better for them. Avatar changes will benefit both.

    A DO is a buffer primarily. In Mod 14, they stand around and give everyone a flat +20% damage buff with TI. Depending if they are the 2nd DC, they probably also use BtS (which isn't gonna be changed). They will give out HG regardless and that won't be changing.

    What else plays similarly to a DO? A templock? Sure they can heal more, but healing was never in the DO's primary contribution to the party. What other class can add damage buffs more easily than a DO can now? An OP? They play completely differently as well.

    The main difference I see with a DO and an AC in terms of enchants is the addition of critical strike to the DO's arsenal, so maybe slotting Brutals instead of Radiants. On your character, you probably have about 8 offensive slots, so the difference in power between all Radiants vs Brutals at rank 14 is: 8 x 400 = 3200 power. With most gear, the AC will prioritise power, but a DO would also benefit from power, but might lean towards more crit. The differential between gear would be ~1000-4000 power? And looking at artifacts, a DO would still benefit from power, so I do not think they would have less power here than an AC. If perhaps an AC would have 2000 more power from artifacts, you're looking at maybe an 7000-9000 power differential between the two paragon paths on average at near end-game.

    Does 7000-9000 power make such a huge difference to buffing capability between a DO-geared cleric vs an AC-geared cleric? Say we take the midpoint, with 8000 power being an average difference between a DO-geared vs AC-geared DC. Blessing of Battle shares 15% of power, and AA provides 33% of power. So the differential of powersharing would be around 4000 power. If a player is already achieving about 100-150k power with an OP in a group, would that difference of 4000 power be that much?

    At 100k power, an additional 4000 power adds 2.8% DPS increase (see: here for calculation). If your team mates have Legendary Pets with rank 14 Bondings, they also share about x3 power of this powershare, so an additional 12000 power or an 8.5% DPS increase, all up about an 11.4% DPS difference. At 150k power, this is an 8.4% DPS increase; at 200k power this is a 6.7% DPS increase. Again this depends on your party members having a legendary companion with rank 14 bondings, which is not always the case in random queues or PUGs - but if you primarily play with pre-mades anyway, even now in mod 14, an AC would probably be more effective than a DO with TI giving the flat damage buff.

    So if the flat damage buff is removed, you might be seeing around a difference of 5-10% DPS difference between an AC vs DO geared cleric, both running AC specs in Mod 15. This would likely be less in RQ/PUG groups if the companions are not optimised.

    The DO DC will still have a place in providing 100% HG uptime and at the start of battle. But they can always spec to AC without really needing a massive change in gear/items. In order to play an AC effectively, you just need to hit your daily AA button at the start of battle encompassing all the companions/players. The rotation will be somewhat similar to a DO DC as FF now no longer gives damage buffs. Learning to exalt is not that hard. I do not think learning how to use a daily at the start of combat (DO's use HG at the start anyway) and learning how to exalt makes a massive leap in playstyle between an AC and DO. (Note: exalting without keybinds (if you are on console) is like using the Wheel of Fire buff on a party member - they need to be somewhat separated from the group and you need line of sight. That's fairly simple to get the hang of with practice).

    As I mentioned above, I play both AC and DO depending on the party needs, and even though I am reaching an optimised AC-geared cleric (preferencing power over crit), my DO still does very nice damage in a party, sometimes getting 4th or 5th DPS in CODG, and 2-3rd DPS in CR.

    Just my opinion, but I do not see how that makes the DO "nuked" to the ground. If anything the TI buff to personal damage will make the DO an interesting buffer/secondary DPS in the coming mod. It will make it more fun for soloing for sure.
    Post edited by vordayn on
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User


    I do not have anything to say about DO that hasn't already been said, though I can see why the devs did it.

    I honestly think the devs only needed to kill off the damage buff of either EmpBtS or EmpFF (preferably BtS, since BtS also reduces enemy damage by 40% right now).

    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    So, I think the dev team feared people would just bring a DO to provide HG & TI, so the AC can focus on AA. The DPS increase of TI+HG alone is just 62%, not including EmpPoD, which further increases the party's DPS from bringing a DO. That is far greater than many other comparable* options (HR: 40% buff on most paths & +35% debuff if you can convince one to run pure buffbot, Templock is 41% buff + 55% debuff, and the somewhat maligned MoF Rene is 79% debuff+30% buff if you can pull off Voodoo magic).

    So, the way I see it, the devs nerfed TI so DO only brings consistent HG to the table (35% + Emp PoD + 10% from TI), but then "buffed" DO's DPS so it can be a similar option to other buff/DPS hybrids like HR, MoF Oppressor, and HB Fury SW (whether or not DO DC will deal more DPS than, say, Pathfinder Combat HR using Thorn Ward, is your call).

    I don't agree with the change and I would return a modified version of TI that forces the DO to do things (instead of just slotting in the power for free 20% buff). However, the devs clearly have other ideas, so I can't do much else.


    *A Devotion Paladin does more than what a Mod 15 DO can provide if the Afkadin can Bane multiple targets and paired with DPS that loves AoC. However, I think most melt teams already bring Afkadin anyways, so you gotta look for the next best options...

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    rjc9000 said:



    Will these two ever reach the perfect harmony balance again?

    Is this a bad time to meme on people?


    Kinda funny that they talk about balance between paragons and so on...

    GWF: no one uses IV, sentinel or Instigator
    TR: Whisperknife is as useful as a dead dog nailed to an armchair.
    DC: The only class that had 2 actually viable paths.
    OP: Prot is getting phased out due to a certain path of another class I won't mention.
    GF: No one uses IV, protector and Tactician are redundant, not because Conqueror is so good, but because other 2 are HAMSTER
    HR: PF is pretty much the last pick for any sort of buffing. SW is pretty good for dps, but that's about how much I know about HR.
    SW: DPS dead for literally mods over mods. Brought back templock, what does seem good, but on the other hand, that means entire class was completely borked.
    CW: MoF has the same issue as PF. It has buffs and debuffs, but inferior to everything else.

    I'll create a copypasta for all of ya:

    BY TRYING TO ESCAPE 2x DC META, THEY CREATED ANOTHER META.

    Ya fix those metas by making other classes as good as the one that's creating the meta, not nerfing the living HAMSTER out of the meta. Because that way you just HAMSTER literally everyone off. And if buffing MoF, Templock, Pathfinder HR(...) isn't good (and trust me, the "buffs" you made to renegade are a whole new level of fail, it's like stepping on a rake that slapped you in the face, and the rake has a grenade taped to it), then find a middle ground.

    Don't destroy a class. If you want diversity you don't kill the one thing that made the class diverse. Now it's literally just Righteous AC or go home.


    with hr, pathfinder isn't even that great for buffs imo. still better off with sw combat. if they fixed careful attack there would be two valid paths for hr in end game.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vordayn said:

    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.

    as far as the difference in enchantments. a dedicated do looks different than one or two different enchants. the companion on a ac should be all silvery. a do is going to be azures and ruthless and gigantic. with more of the same on the person.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    vordayn said:

    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.
    Even in Mod 14 as it stands, many groups look for an AC when filling their party slot in a 5-man party, so this won't change in Mod 15.

    10-person content will still want an AC and a DO in their party so that won't change.

    If you RQ, a DO DC will still provide HG + BtS (35+21% damage) to the party. An AC DC (unless at very practiced levels) does not routinely add HG to their rotation. And in RQ/PUGs a DO DC will often be a strong DPS char (and made relatively stronger now that TI is a personal 25% buff and Avatar is buffed).

    100% HG and BtS, is what, a 56% DPS increase that can be provided by which other class? An OP maybe? But they don't have the DPS output as a DO DC. A templock? Not nearly as much buffing, but they heal more (it's a funny compromise they made with that). The DO DC will still likely have weapons of light anyway, so will still contribute this as powersharing. So no, in my view, a DO DC will still be effective. If an RQ party kicks a DC for not playing AC, then they've got problems.
    Post edited by vordayn on
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    vordayn said:

    rjc9000 said:


    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.

    But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.

    I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
    as far as the difference in enchantments. a dedicated do looks different than one or two different enchants. the companion on a ac should be all silvery. a do is going to be azures and ruthless and gigantic. with more of the same on the person.
    Incorrect. With my AC DC, I can achieve 30k recovery without silveries on my companion, which is more than enough for my daily needs. I prefer Draconic to reach the armor penetration cap as I'd still like to do respectable damage with my AC DC in end-game content. This also makes it easy to transition to a DO loadout when I want to.

    While a DO DC would likely slot azures or ruthless, why can't an AC DC benefit from this too? Swapping to an AC loadout even with DO-optimised gear would not make the AC DC suboptimal, unless you were min-maxing or are with a party which only demands BiS toons, which would be unfortunate. No one should be dictating what you should have/wear when speccing to either build.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    rjc9000 said:



    I do not have anything to say about DO that hasn't already been said, though I can see why the devs did it.

    I honestly think the devs only needed to kill off the damage buff of either EmpBtS or EmpFF (preferably BtS, since BtS also reduces enemy damage by 40% right now).

    With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.

    So, I think the dev team feared people would just bring a DO to provide HG & TI, so the AC can focus on AA. The DPS increase of TI+HG alone is just 62%, not including EmpPoD, which further increases the party's DPS from bringing a DO. That is far greater than many other comparable* options (HR: 40% buff on most paths & +35% debuff if you can convince one to run pure buffbot, Templock is 41% buff + 55% debuff, and the somewhat maligned MoF Rene is 79% debuff+30% buff if you can pull off Voodoo magic).

    So, the way I see it, the devs nerfed TI so DO only brings consistent HG to the table (35% + Emp PoD + 10% from TI), but then "buffed" DO's DPS so it can be a similar option to other buff/DPS hybrids like HR, MoF Oppressor, and HB Fury SW (whether or not DO DC will deal more DPS than, say, Pathfinder Combat HR using Thorn Ward, is your call).

    I don't agree with the change and I would return a modified version of TI that forces the DO to do things (instead of just slotting in the power for free 20% buff). However, the devs clearly have other ideas, so I can't do much else.


    *A Devotion Paladin does more than what a Mod 15 DO can provide if the Afkadin can Bane multiple targets and paired with DPS that loves AoC. However, I think most melt teams already bring Afkadin anyways, so you gotta look for the next best options...

    How ist hat done 62% for DO ? Did I missed numbers?
    I thought multiplier like 0.2 (TI) and 0.35 (HG) simply multiplie to 0.7, same as 0.18 and 0.2 for templock to 0.36 ?
    Debuffs are 10% (pop)+25% inconcsistent from DT-beam +5% aura of despair so far, HadarGrasp is not shared only with wraith claw and lesser curse.
    DO-DC will bring HG 35% + ePoD 27% debuff, if dps-DO was happy to run a debuff instead of dps.
    TI will be a personal buff or a group debuff? noch checked so far.
    If it´s a groupbuff the DO will be better than most other in terms of consistent debuffs (warlock/Hunter) 27%+10% (set on the boss, no clumsy aoe or inconsitent laserbeam), have near same dps-buff as templock, a DR buff on top (35%) and may run some usefull classfeature on top (like Hastening light encounter reset or Foresight), similar range in the end and a slave for the one dps. It´s a try to balance stuff, the other option would have been a nerf to HG down to 17-20%, to achieve near the same result, with the small benefit that a DO at low gear would be favoured over AC, maybe the better option.
  • earlgreybeardearlgreybeard Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    I would like to see all the encounters in empowered mode discharge the power evenly and switch back to divine mode when the power is exhausted, over time I have noticed a growing discrepancy in how much divine power is used per cast (by the different encounters) at the last empowered cast and having to constantly tab back to divine mode.. thinking it switched back automatically then finding it hadnt and why your at will wasn't firing.

    I find this one of the glitchiest aspects of DC game play
    Guild Leader Den of the Misfits
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