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M15: Control Wizard Class Changes

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  • bluebubbl3sbluebubbl3s Posts: 110Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    the more i look at it, the more depressed i get.

    going to go stick my head in the sand like an osterich and i am not looking at this garbage again until i am forced to with the new mod (if you want to call it that) :'(
    Myth (CW & DC)
    Guild Leader - Valaurakari Ascension



    VA is the creator and proud member of The Round Table Alliance

  • cane#9308 cane Posts: 2Member Arc User
    Icy terrain is not functioning properly and only deals one tick of damage instead of the intended 7.
  • dupeksdupeks Posts: 1,789Member Arc User

    Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?

    Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?

    Seems like controlled momentum will still be a way better and more reliable support feat than rene capstone? Or am I missing something about the other rene changes that would push it over the edge?
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 330Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    dupeks said:

    Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?

    Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?

    Seems like controlled momentum will still be a way better and more reliable support feat than rene capstone? Or am I missing something about the other rene changes that would push it over the edge?
    ^^ Controlled Momentum is way more reliable for buffing damage atm. Chaos Magic w/ the 20 sec cd makes what otherwise would have been awesome, meh, super meh, especially w/ only 5% proc chance on power activation. Chaos Magic would be sweet if they removed the cd, and allowed the 10 sec length to be refreshed if that particular buff proc'ed again. The chance of procing the same chaos magic twice in 10 secs is an exercise in probability I don't feel like doing right now, it depends on power cd's, animation times, and other things. But on any particular activation of a power, the chance to proc a specific chaos magic buff is 0.05 * 1/6, which is less than 1%, ~ 0.833%.

    As far as I can tell after messing around for a short time on preview, the changes as they currently are have moved damage buffs around, and cut cp in half, which is about a 24% damage reduction on frozen targets, and about the same vs cc immune targets (not counting damage loss from fixing bugged feats). I was able to solo Kessels last night, but it felt like I was doing much lass damage than on live, and took 4 more minutes to complete (solo). Haven't had a chance to set up ACT yet.

  • hastati96hastati96 Posts: 286Member Arc User
    dupeks said:

    Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?

    Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?

    Seems like controlled momentum will still be a way better and more reliable support feat than rene capstone? Or am I missing something about the other rene changes that would push it over the edge?
    When testing Chaos Magic on Preview I constantly had around 3 of the 6 buffs up (not proccing from DoTs) so I think it definetly isn't a bad choice to pick Renegade.
    Nero - PvE Control Wizard - Essence of Aggression



  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I mean, before this mod, my support build was Renegade/Opp, for Nightmare Wizardry schenanigans. I suppose if you can reliably get CA from other sources NW isn't that great, but with things like the Razorwood companion, CA damage is pretty intense.
  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    I see two EXTREMELY cheap builds for pvp lol. If this goes through as posted and works like I think it will CW will be the new hated pvp class if people figure it out....
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 330Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    hastati96 said:

    dupeks said:

    Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?

    Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?

    Seems like controlled momentum will still be a way better and more reliable support feat than rene capstone? Or am I missing something about the other rene changes that would push it over the edge?
    When testing Chaos Magic on Preview I constantly had around 3 of the 6 buffs up (not proccing from DoTs) so I think it definetly isn't a bad choice to pick Renegade.
    I was able to average 2/6 of the buffs up at any one time, but to be honest, it's really the chaos fury that people are going to want. There was a thread about the difference between GF ITF vs CW/Rene Chaos Fury I read in the past. The general consensus was that GF won if they had enough recovery to keep itf up close to 100% compared to about the theoretical 1/3 uptime of Chaos Fury. The way the feat works on preview now makes it even more obvious, GF's ITF is better. The other buffs from Chaos Magic might be more useful in pvp however.

    Still, I think they should get rid of the 20 second CD and allow the buffs to be refreshed. If they did remove the CD, lets simplify things and assume one can activate 10 powers in 10 seconds, the probability of procing the same Chaos Magic buff (Chaos Fury) before its duration ends is:

    1 - (0.99166)^10 = 0.0802...

    or about an 8% chance to refresh the same buff if you use fast activating powers (i.e. disintegrate, RoE, IT, IR, OF, SB, CC, etc). Even with that, ITF would most likely still have way better uptime than Chaos Fury, and the new Chaos Fury would probably average out to an overall reduced damage buff than old Chaos Fury. At least in theory.

    Anyways, if what you're after is a flat damage buff for the party w/ CW, the obvious choice is still to use Controlled Momentum.

  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @thefabricant said:
    > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.

    > @thefabricant said:
    > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.

    Does super high recovery lower the cooldown of chaos magic by chance?
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    > @thefabricant said:

    > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.



    > @thefabricant said:

    > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.



    Does super high recovery lower the cooldown of chaos magic by chance?

    Oh jeeze, that would be super disappointing: my MOF Renegade build has like, 30k Recovery, so it'd be really sad if that was counterproductive to the capstone.
  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    > @theycallmetomu said:
    > > @thefabricant said:
    >
    > > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.
    >
    >
    >
    > > @thefabricant said:
    >
    > > Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.
    >
    >
    >
    > Does super high recovery lower the cooldown of chaos magic by chance?
    >
    > Oh jeeze, that would be super disappointing: my MOF Renegade build has like, 30k Recovery, so it'd be really sad if that was counterproductive to the capstone.

    That's what I'm trying to figure out. If recovery lowers that 20 second cooldown allowing you to grant all 6 buffs within seconds or not
  • smulchsmulch Posts: 625Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I've played around quite a bit on my CW and there's a few things I've noticed.

    First is that our aoe is considerably weaker initially and barely stronger later. This is mostly due to the nerf to chilling presence and our incapacity to build arcane stacks quickly. Spell storm is still required for aoe otherwise the damage is EXTREMELY slow. I imagine MoF to be even worse.

    Personally, I think that arcane stacks should affect every single spells by default rather than being required (and it is required now) to use arcane presence. Change arcane presence slightly by making it give something else in addition to the recharge speed.

    Chilling presence also needs to be buffed a little bit but not to the previous levels. I'd recommend making the freeze portion deals triple the effect of the buff (still less than it used to be). Keep the rest as is.

    Evocation is okish but it's still not good enough to be used because it has no effect on the functionality of spells. I'd suggest to bring back the damage back to 20% but if an aoe spell hit only one target, the effect is doubled (meaning 40% damage from evocation). This would help without making the feature broken.

    Spell storm, still a fine feature, dead in single target, still alive in aoe. Fine by me

    Arcane power field is just clunky. You need to get the ball rolling by using a daily power (which isn't always available at the start) and it only tick every 2 seconds. I'd recommend making the effect proc as soon as we enter combat and have it then be reapplied upon using a daily power, this way this removes a LOT of its clunkyness (this is now a word :P). In addition, bring it back to ticking every second instead of every 2 seconds. Adjust damage accordingly.

    Renegade capstone needs to be adjusted a little bit. First, 6 random buffs is, imo, too much. I think it would be better to condense them into 4 buffs instead. I'm not sure if it can proc from dots or only on spell use but I could hardly see the benefit from it. It needs to be more consistent by either allowing dots to proc it or by increasing proc change. If it can only proc from spell use, then we are looking at an average of 1 proc every 20 seconds~ which is just awful.


    Overall, I'm still getting used to the changes and it is a pretty significant playstyle change. Still, it's good to see our concerns addressed.
  • itblsitbls Posts: 121Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Need some capstone buffs.
    Post edited by itbls on
  • slysnow#2290 slysnow Posts: 110Member Arc User
    Is it too late to flat out remove imprisonment? You could create a skill called blink (stealth), a summon (anything really), decoy, a wind attack, a buff encounter, a heal encounter, just anything....

    I'm sure you guys have stats on how many cws use that skill. Like 0.03% of wizards use it and 0.029% used it just to see what it was.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Is it too late to flat out remove imprisonment? You could create a skill called blink (stealth), a summon (anything really), decoy, a wind attack, a buff encounter, a heal encounter, just anything....



    I'm sure you guys have stats on how many cws use that skill. Like 0.03% of wizards use it and 0.029% used it just to see what it was.

    I'm reasonably sure that I've used Imprisonment exactly once, when I was a returning player. I used it only once because, even not knowing much of anything about the state of the game then, I could read the tooltip and know that it would be useless; I just wanted to see if the animation was interesting.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Would Imprisonment even be usable if it didn't give the target damage immunity and didn't have the ridiculous cooldown?

    Like, ACTUAL control would be really awesome. But because everything in the game is basically control immune ... why bother?
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,772Member Arc User

    Class Features:

    Frost Wave (Reworked): When you activate a Daily power, you apply 6 stacks of Chill and Freeze foes within 30' of you. You are also refunded 5% of your Action Points over the next 10 seconds
    Frost Wave: No longer increases effect duration per rank
    Frost Wave: Now increases the amount of Action Points refunded by 5% per rank
    Frost Wave (New): Enemies that are already Frozen have their Freeze duration refreshed

    This is a neat effect at first glance, but is it useful?

    In a single-target situation, the CW is generally fighting a (control-immune) boss.

    In an AoE situation, the CW is most likely using Oppressive Force, which is an AoE hard CC that makes the short-lived freezing effect redundant.

    The Action Point refund is potent, but all of the Dailies in the world don't help much if your damage is lacking, and it appears difficult to justify slotting this class feature when it's running up against the likes of Swath of Destruction, Storm Spell, Chilling Presence, Arcane Presence, etc.

    I won't deny that instantly freezing all surrounding enemies is a fun and flashy power, but I'm not really seeing the overall advantage, and I'm not sure that the added AP gain is enough to compensate.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 2,073Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Is it too late to flat out remove imprisonment? You could create a skill called blink (stealth), a summon (anything really), decoy, a wind attack, a buff encounter, a heal encounter, just anything....



    I'm sure you guys have stats on how many cws use that skill. Like 0.03% of wizards use it and 0.029% used it just to see what it was.

    100% of CWs use it for entertainment purposes that involve 30% of the game's population.

  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Would Imprisonment even be usable if it didn't give the target damage immunity and didn't have the ridiculous cooldown?

    Like, ACTUAL control would be really awesome. But because everything in the game is basically control immune ... why bother?

    No, you're right; it would still be useless. There's no practical value in incapacitating a single target. Even if it could prevent a boss from acting, its application would be niche at best unless Cryptic introduced boss mechanics that HAD to be interrupted by such a power, which they probably would not do since it would make CWs mandatory.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • rjc9000 said:

    Is it too late to flat out remove imprisonment? You could create a skill called blink (stealth), a summon (anything really), decoy, a wind attack, a buff encounter, a heal encounter, just anything....



    I'm sure you guys have stats on how many cws use that skill. Like 0.03% of wizards use it and 0.029% used it just to see what it was.

    100% of CWs use it for entertainment purposes that involve 30% of the game's population.
    Yeah, I've used it to mess with friends, but that's literally the only time I've ever used it. No one uses it in a standard rotation. It has zero use in the game.
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 1,275Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018

    rjc9000 said:

    Is it too late to flat out remove imprisonment? You could create a skill called blink (stealth), a summon (anything really), decoy, a wind attack, a buff encounter, a heal encounter, just anything....



    I'm sure you guys have stats on how many cws use that skill. Like 0.03% of wizards use it and 0.029% used it just to see what it was.

    100% of CWs use it for entertainment purposes that involve 30% of the game's population.
    Yeah, I've used it to mess with friends, but that's literally the only time I've ever used it. No one uses it in a standard rotation. It has zero use in the game.
    If they actually made Imprisonment land correctly (as far too often it misses, especially if your target dodges or has an immunity frame for a split second e.g. frost giants), didn't have a clunky delay to know if it has landed or not, and there was a need for it (such as disabling a very strong or unkillable minion/mobs) then there might be a use for it.

    Right now, Imprisonment is a sucky end-level power, sad considering that it could have been a very useful spell.

    If Imprisonment were to stay, then to make it viable, it should be able to do damage while the target is imprisoned (sort of like an accelerated matter-deconstructive process going on while imprisoned), or be able to actually target bosses for a short duration (to give a bit of respite to the team when really needed). Or, it would imprison the mob for the whole duration of the fight, and if the mob were still imprisoned (i.e. the wizard was not killed) by the end of the fight, then it would actually *die* because there was no counter-spell cast.

    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • constantmule#4943 constantmule Posts: 89Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    yay!!! i got a buff, oh looky there...a nerf. a man that was born blind and has been deceased for 10 years coulda seen that coming..but YAY!! a buff..for once, now if this trend continues we should end up having more than just 1 or two set in stone ways to play this class. i have faith that we will get there some day
  • yashmak#1787 yashmak Posts: 37Member Arc User
    Thanks for the attention you are paying to CW's. I guess we will need to change the way we play, what I am most concerned about is bugs. So many changes means so many new bugs to one of the buggiest class ever. At the end, players will find the new bugs and play with them to get the most out of this class, as they always did.
  • ruslan1404#8974 ruslan1404 Posts: 50Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Rimefire Smoulder's Damage was not increased by 25%.

    Chilling Presence is a damage buff - is it Aura of Courage for CW nerf ?
    25% is not for AoC ?

    What about Assailant buff /2 from Chilling Presence and not buffed 25% new base up skill ? or Assailant not buffed Chilling Presence now ?
    Post edited by ruslan1404#8974 on
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