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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,584 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    > @strathkin said:

    > Terrifying Insight: Seeing the inevitable destruction of your foes, you deal 10/15/20/25% more damage. Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds

    >

    >

    >

    > This right here effectively removes the DO DC from the game. An AC using power buffing is going to give any party a far larger damage increase now than any DO will be able to even combining this with hallowed ground.

    >

    >

    > I respectfully disagree I think it leave's Devine in a FINE place and I have one of every class. I mean honestly mostly Cleric's regardless of Paragon Devine or Anointed both of use Light Gift's and both often mostly use Righteous as well or a Righteous Hybrid with 2-3 FEATs in another path.

    >

    > To be fair I think the CRYPTIC team did a GREAT job on this likely HARD call. I mean both Cleric's can still give their 10% base power share which PROCs instantly unlike a Paladin, whom you require to stay within range for 6s and loose it instantly, and then have to wait 6s again before you regain it.

    >

    > Still having said that - they took the 20% damage away from the Party with Terrifying Insight. Cause remember today it ONLY gives 8%, +4%, +4%, +4% or 20% in total, and instead increased it to 25% but only for the Cleric. So it's TRUE the party doesn't get the 20% damage boost as well, but they still do get something in a DEBUFF to enemies the Cleric damages, "Damaging an enemy also lowers their damage resistance by 4/6/8/10% for 5 seconds."

    >

    > So I think you missed Terrifying Insight now gives 25% damage boost to Cleric not 20%!

    >

    > So I think that's a FAIR compromise even if I may be slightly less popular for awhile for having said so. And I think most changes I've reviewed so FAR I've largely been quite supportive of. I do however THINK the changes ABOVE should at least have them reconsider 1 or 2 things for Cleric at the very least:

    > * DEBUFF out to 5%, 7.5%, 10%, 12.5% so it's perhaps a little more significant!

    >

    > * or Perhaps Extend Light Gifts from 2%, 4%, 6%, 8%, 10% out to 3%, 6%, 9%, 12%, 15%?

    >

    >

    > Still remember that despite the above changes a Cleric's base damage is also increasing by 5%! So I mean people let's TRY and at least be FAIR about this, and if we still think it's a problem maybe ask the DEBUFF or LIGHT GIFTS be extended a little bit more! Those might be two FAIR area's they may reconsider?

    >

    > I thought so far the one truly FAIR observation or comment was with respect to Guardian Fighters! Someone had commented why there were no boosts to their TANK builds, and I thought that was likely one area that perhaps did indeed get overlooked... :o

    >

    > @balanced#2849



    Are you serious? Do you actually play endgame DO? You’re actually trying to say a DO with a 25% DPS boost and slight debuff is BETTER than the ENTIRE GROUP GETTING a dps boost? REALLY????



    And what about POD and FF changes? These changes will kill the DO class as a viable endgame support and we will all see the new AC/temp meta. No way a non TI DO gets into a good CR group unless it’s out of charity.

    No I'm NOT saying that at ALL. My goodness can't you READ what I said, I know you haven't quoted me correctly either. Cause I never said, "This right here effectively removes the DO DC from the game. An AC using power buffing is going to give any party a far larger damage increase now than any DO will be able to even combining this with hallowed ground."

    I was just trying to state the likely reason for the NERF, as they were likely looking at Class Balance, they realized too many joke on the forums the last year or two, and far too many groups have 2 Cleric's: 1 Devine & 1 Anointed. So while everybody was always joking about it even as recently as MOD 14, why no changes to Cleric's were made - I certainly wasn't one of them joking about that. But I also rarely played a Cleric and I think in the entire time I only one time ran my Cleric in a Queue group with 1 other Cleric. So the problem was NOT made or even joked about by me either, nor was it even designed to work this way by cryptic, but an unforseen situation when they allowed private queues. Only because people wanted to IGNORE the 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS Meta that had LONG been established! So now they finally get around to trying to resolve how this works and people are surprised?

    The 20% party damage boost on TOP of the 10% Power Share from Light Gift's: Remember two Cleric's 1 Devine and 1 Anointed, both with Light Gift's self buffing each other, then Devine Oracle boosts all party damage by a further 20%, was the likely nail in the coffin on that one. Because far too many 5 people Dungeon's were doing just that with 2 Cleric's!

    But I'm also pointing out: they did at least increase the damage boost Devine Cleric directly gained by 5%. Cause it only use to be 20% not 25% like it would be now. So sure it's not as great getting 25% damage boost for the Cleric if the party is suffering from a lack of a 20% damage boost, that is only replaced with a 10% damage resistance DEBUFF, like my goodness I'm not an ID -10- T. That's why I first suggested the first two although I'll now add in a third while possibly even extend some of the original values I first suggested:

    How would I have liked to see the problem resolved:
    I honestly would have preferred they didn't NERF it at all - my goodness! But my FIX would be far simpler, by limiting each 5 player queue/group, to having no more than 1 of every class! If you have a group of 10 required like for Demogorgon or for CotDG then no more than 2 of each class! Or a group of 25 like in TIAMAT then no more than 5 of every class! It would still allow for considerable overlap for 10 or 25 queue groups, yet mostly avoid the problem CRYPTIC sees, with some DUNGEONS are being run a little too easily. Yet I don't foresee many will like this cause it's even more limiting than the older 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS Meta we had & still have in public queue's just not private. Cause there you still can often have 2 GWF, 2 GF, 2 HR, 2 SW, 2 CW, 2 TR, etc... That's why I think they instead tried to avoid it by providing what we see now, a noticeable difference in party buff Terrifying Insight gives, shifting toward a damage resistance debuff instead.

    So while this would encourage player class diversity it would be far more limiting than what we had with the 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS per 5 player group's were. :#

    Yet that is not where we currently are today:
    That is why I suggested we likely be far better to ask they extend either the DEBUFF perhaps out from 10% maybe to 12.5%, who knows maybe even 15% or possibly 20% damage resistance DEBUFF. Though I'd honestly rather see them extend Light Gift's from 10%, out to 12.5%, or perhaps even 15%. Though these were the first two solutions I originally suggested! :3

    Ideal compromise similar to PvP solution suggested in this very thread:
    I did like one persons suggestion, I'd have to go back to read who made it. But I also didn't want to unfairly bring them into the RANT that some will likely take out on me - even though I'm not the one who created the problem. It was suggested why not just split the 20% damage boost so it's half as effective for party? I mean my goodness they do that for many abilities in PvP, with several being 1/2 or 1/3 as effective on other players, so why not make Terrifying Insight 1/2 or 1/3 effective for the party or allies? If they gave Terrifying Insight a 25% boost to the Cleric, then the Party would still be BUFFED by 8.3-12.5%.

    GRANTED: It's certainly not 20% damage boost by any means, but far better than 10% damage resistance DEBUFF. :o

    ---
    But I have no idea what they may be thinking, but I likely know the reason they are thinking it, because too many running Dungeon's with 1 Devine & 1 Anointed Cleric. Both Power Share and buff each other and the whole party, while the Devine Oracle also buff's the entire party yet another 20%, not to mention other buff's from Warlock, Guardian, or other classes as well.

    My goodness several classes have a horrible time, if they want to partake in many end game dungeons, even if their gear score is very respectable! So I think they've likely done considerable TESTING, and found that the changes still offered enough balance, even if they didn't quite offer what was previously given. It's also likely why they extend not only the Cleric, but several other classes a damage boost as well!

    Still if people can't at least AGREE with one of the proposal's above in BOLD then Cryptic may HOLD firm in their current position? Who knows? I admit at times they have sometimes offered a compromise themselves, at least when Player feedback is vastly NEGATIVE or UNSUPPORTIVE like this is. But it can also be a risky gamble to make, because other times they've also realized how far something had been exploited. Though I think that is obvious cause people are always joking on forums *not me* about the two DC meta that currently exists. Realize this problem only arose after Private Queue allowed you to IGNORE the 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS Rule. :s
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • altaiir94altaiir94 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Astral shield 40% dmg res
    Divine Glow 17.5% increased defense
    FF 15% damage res
    HG 35% res
    TOTAL = 107.5% dmg res from 4 powers that lower DCs use most often, and this is useful, as none of the other classes has any DR, everyone has -20% DR, even in endgame -_-

    Can you please change bts to give additional DR? Hastening light should increase partys dmg res by 5/10/15/20%. Actually, make all DC powers increase the damage resistance, that would finally fix the "DC meta".

    * Please don't do it*
  • hamsterhero99#6999 hamsterhero99 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    RIP DO :(

    Now it will be OP + AC all the time, sadly GF is going in the bin too, as a tank. Why not just remove the class all together, so people are not disappointed when they start a useless class?
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User
    cryptic goes the lazy way. Destroing DO completly makes no sense at all.

    It would be better that a do dc can reach the buffes like AC can.
    AC stacks power to get stronger buffs.
    Why not DO needs critical strike to get 20 % of base crit chance as terrifying inside buff? The stronger the dc gets the stronger his buffs are getting? this game should have progress.

    The changes are a joke. Healing powers are incriesed by 75 % - im impressed...... not
    Played with a healadin before? or a templock? can you outheal them? ah.... no. It needs to increas 4 mill% and by the way. have you seen an endgame dps class looking for heals?
    daunting light does more damage - well nice - in the future i write - can't dps or buff do dc lf cr runs. Im sure i get lots of invites......
    To buff damage for DO's is a real bad thing. All the dps classes cry that they don't get runs - add a non buffing dc without buffs to that group makes sense?

    to make one thing clear. The way terrifying inside works is too easy because use this power and everyone gets buffed alot.
    But a way to reach that buff would be the way to go. The DO dc gets stronger buffs while his stats go up like AC dc.
    But use something like crit chance or something else. And there is no need to change powers at all - because double dc's powers don't stack. So the double dc meta is going more and more away...

    I play a 17.3k do dc on xbox forever. I never was a haste dc also not with the bubble meta. We had long times hard times because noone wanted a do in a run. And still in endgame content where you need protection a AC DC is much better option than i am. But kill this class completley and the way you do it is just a kick in the face of loyal long time do dc players.

    Do something that we do dc's can see a light - we also have spend alot of time in this game unlocked everything and run alot of dungeons. Now to say no need to progress because you can't we destroy your class is just wrong!


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    can I ask why you didn't nerf aa into the ground instead of TI? can we petition for the other tree to be nerfed into the ground instead of us? respectfully of course...

    They nerfed AC few times already to make DOs viable.
    First they nerfed AA which used to work better and more consistent and the buff couldn't get stripped away(which was kind of a bug I guess), then they nerfed the base power AA gives from 50% to 33%, and the biggest nerf to AC was with the changes to Bonding Stones and Companions Gift since most of the power share came from the companion, the every 2 second refresh use to work to the benefit of the AC not to mention the drop from 300% share to 195% on Bonding.
    So you used to share 50% and get a total of 400% from it, and now you share 33% and you share 295% of it. At 60k power it a difference of 120k shared power to 59k power from AA (a bit less than half).
    AC was nerfed all over and DO was buffed few mods ago making TI a strong buff regardless of itemlevel.

    The AC is still more of a complete end game buffer than DO even before the changes so nerf to AC to the ground would mean in general worse groups. If they want to make it so only 1 DC is needed in a run its good they choose the AC cause choosing the DO would've made the run slower and harder.
    I don't think this is true.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    Theres no 2DC meta since WOL/templock changes

    The meta is 1DPS4SUPPORT, youre not gonna change this by killing dodc.



    The problem here is that AC and DO requires different gear, companions, artifacts, ppl put a lot of money on archons, tiger, razor, enchantments, companions gear and these stuff are gonna be 100% useless.


    and it isn't like we were abusing any kind of exploit or our class was op or anything like that to expect a nerf into oblivion. unlike aa with ff and exhaltation
  • reaper#3644 reaper Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @adinosii said:
    >
    > In my opinion, they should have just changed things so that TI and AA would not work at the same time - that would solve the "2DC problem", whils still keeping both paragons viable for group play.


    I agree with that. Also why is this all on the DO? Why not bring AA down were it is more equal with Ti? With all the complaining of power creep why not bring down the power share? Also make it like adinosii said aa and ti don't work at the same time. if aa is on then no one gets the ti buff? Then the players who have built for do doesn't have to change everything! I for one won't be forced to go back to ac.I will change toons to another class and think alot of do dc's will also.Which will leave alot less dc's in game and we have been in that boat before. That is just my 2 cents.

    I find this change very dishearting and demotivating alot of time, grinding and money wasted
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Dear @balanced#2849 , please kindly read all these following sentences. This is not a rant post but a real feedback + discussion post, from one of those really old DCs since beta.

    I do agree to pull off the support ability of DO but with a trade of personal damage buff.... and i mean HUGE DAMAGE!!!!

    1. Divinity Changes:
    - The multiplication part of the divinity gain formula is a mess, so i really appreciate devs changed them into additive instead.

    - However, the usage of Sacred Flame and Astral Seal will still be obsolete in comparision to Lance of Faith, BotS and BoB as they are providing near to nothing to the DC and his/her party. People will still stick to LoF as main at-will and one of the two mentioned as secondary. Thus, by changing the divinity formula doesnt really helps to promote the other at-wills unless they break the no. of hits cap to fill full 3 pips of divinity in some cases, which will be even harder and inconsistent in this future patch due to BotS "nerf". Kindly review the our outdated at-will effect that provides that small tiny temp hp or heal per few seconds ty. This will add some incentives to use other at-will to cope with divinity changes.

    - Frankly speaking, the generation of BotS isnt an issue for most of the DC but a good feature to maintain constant flow of divinity and allow multiple at-will loadout choices. For example, one of my loadout generates nearly 3 pips of divinity generation with one BotS and 3 SF. With the generation of divinity during my divine encounter rotation, I can achieve 3 pips of divinity during my second at-will rotation and so on. This tiny divinity generated overtime will allow more combinations of at-will and absolutely not a trouble for most of the DC player. Please kindly dont remove it.

    2. Powers + Feats:
    - Forge'smaster Flame:
    --Stripping off the damage buff from empowered encounter is OK for me. This really helps to eliminate 2 DC meta if this is what you want. But why not make it into a heavy damage encounter? Increase its base damage and damage increase per empowerment will be a good choice. We dont really need a useless encounter that is outperformed by Break the Spirit in terms of dps, cooldown and utility. But in terms of single target damage.... ya we seriously need some method to deal high dps on a single target.

    --Speaking of this, I have to laugh on DC powers theory where single target powers deal lesser damage on single target than aoe powers *cough cough*, and single target daily powers deal lesser damage than encounter... or even at-will... *cough cough*. I believe you know which powers I am mentioning *cough cough*... DO specific... *cough cough*. Please improve them.

    -Prophecy of Doom:
    --Please change it into a reliable encounter. 0.4 sec duration decrease in casting animation for halved utility is a great nerf to this skill. No one will use it anymore, please revise to either totally remove the debuff and shorten the animation under 1 sec so people will use it reliably for AP gain or change to other skill effect ty.

    -Terrifying Insight:
    -- 5% increase + 10% debuff is not enough to make DO DPS DC viable. From my experience, 20% more extra personal damage buff will be a good spot to begin with. This will impact DPS more consistently as DC base damage is really low. Also, since DC lack some scaling power, why not we make this feat into 20% base damage buff + 20% of DC crit/power stat? Endgame DPS DC will have high crit so i think this is a good idea to go with.

    -Living Fire:
    --No DC will have their HP drop under 35% in their daily gameplay. For most of the time, it will be 100% or 0%. The worst case is
    70% maybe, taking one hit from normal mob but thats it. Instead, why not give us damage buff but it scales with hp? For example, it can be 10% damage buff at 100% hp and scaled to 25% damage buff at 50% hp.

    --Other option includes having the most of the damage buff at full hp but the magnitude of buff decreases when we have lesser health. The magnitude of buff can be lesser, maybe 15% at full hp and 0% when we are at 1% hp. We are DCs, healer, not berserker, with so many healing abilities it will be very hard to drop our hp below 35% threshold. Please kindly remake this feat.

    -Piercing Light:
    -- Armor penetration is never an issue for most of the player, from low il to high il. Most guild with arp boon + normal gear gives more than enough arp for daily solo and also for dungeon. Even with 10% arp bonus, most toons are arp capped, by increasing it to 20% doesnt help much, unless the players are below 70.

    --My suggestion is turning it into a piercing damage buff, similar to what TR and HR received previously, 20% of our total damage will be dealed as a seperate piercing damage to our target. This will help DO to switch to DPS character in both pve and pvp. In my opinion, a T4 paragon feat deserves a 20% damage bonus to enemies, and this buff is still slightly lesser than other classes if we compare with other classes feat. For AC righteous this will not be an issue as their dps is really low, 20% of low dps is still low dps, there wont be any balance issue.

    -Avatar of Divine:
    -- I can forsee how this whole patch will affect DO DC gameplay, righteous DPS DC will have to rapidly generate divinity and spam all 3 encounters to get the most cd reset out for Avatar. In addition to the changes, I would like to suggest adding in a movement speed buff for Avatar, this will be the last nail in the coffin for ranting DO players. A fluent combat gameplay, moderately high dps and without the need of spamming shift to reach mobs or relocate will be a sufficient incentive for those who still planning to main a DO DC.

    End note:
    I sincerely hope after this patch, DO DPS DC can compete for with other secondary dps in game, with little utility but sufficient damage output to be included in any non-optimal group composition. In terms of devs side, you guys removed a support classes from the pool of support, for DC player side, we get an extra dps path and a meaningful gear progression direction to deal nice dps in comparison to other classes. Please kindly revise and give some feedback on it ty. Lets try to buff DO DPS, and launch it on preview, then slowly tune it back to a fine spot ty.

  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User
    i have an unbelievable Idea:
    You want to get rid of double DC meta?

    hmm - one line of code to change - ind a five man dungeon - check dc's if there is one in group its NOT possible to add another one.

    One line of code to change still both paragons are viable...
    Nothing needs to be destroyed!
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    jazzfong said:


    - However, the usage of Sacred Flame and Astral Seal will still be obsolete in comparision to Lance of Faith, BotS and BoB as they are providing near to nothing to the DC and his/her party. People will still stick to LoF as main at-will and one of the two mentioned as secondary.

    Lance Of Faith is not a good power and anyone who uses it as "the main at-will" of their DC does not really understand the DC class well.

    This will likely colour the seriousness with which the rest of your critique is taken.
    jazzfong said:


    - Forge'smaster Flame:
    --Stripping off the damage buff from empowered encounter is OK for me. This really helps to eliminate 2 DC meta if this is what you want. But why not make it into a heavy damage encounter? Increase its base damage and damage increase per empowerment will be a good choice. We dont really need a useless encounter that is outperformed by Break the Spirit in terms of dps, cooldown and utility. But in terms of single target damage.... ya we seriously need some method to deal high dps on a single target.

    Why? Solo, you already do plenty of DPS (and Forgemaster is a nice part of that, especially with how fast it casts). In a group, you're never going to do enough DPS to make up for the loss of the buffs/debuffs you should be giving the ACTUAL DPS. By using powers that increase your own damage instead of the damage of the DPS classes, you're decreasing the overall DPS the group does.
    jazzfong said:


    -Prophecy of Doom:
    --Please change it into a reliable encounter. 0.4 sec duration decrease in casting animation for halved utility is a great nerf to this skill. No one will use it anymore, please revise to either totally remove the debuff and shorten the animation under 1 sec so people will use it reliably for AP gain or change to other skill effect ty.

    The nerf is only to Empowered PoD. If you were using Empowered stacks on PoD, you weren't using them on BTS or FF, and you were making a mistake that lowered the DPS of yourself and your party.

    Reducing the Empowered debuff of PoD is a useful reminder that PoD should never be cast Empowered.
    jazzfong said:



    -Terrifying Insight:
    -- 5% increase + 10% debuff is not enough to make DO DPS DC viable. From my experience, 20% more extra personal damage buff will be a good spot to begin with. This will impact DPS more consistently as DC base damage is really low. Also, since DC lack some scaling power, why not we make this feat into 20% base damage buff + 20% of DC crit/power stat? Endgame DPS DC will have high crit so i think this is a good idea to go with.

    While soloing, this will effectively be a +35% increase to your personal DPS, which is pretty good. In a group, it will be an effective +0% increase to the group's total DPS, which is very very bad.
    jazzfong said:

    End note:
    I sincerely hope after this patch, DO DPS DC can compete for with other secondary dps in game, with little utility but sufficient damage output to be included in any non-optimal group composition. In terms of devs side, you guys removed a support classes from the pool of support, for DC player side, we get an extra dps path and a meaningful gear progression direction to deal nice dps in comparison to other classes. Please kindly revise and give some feedback on it ty. Lets try to buff DO DPS, and launch it on preview, then slowly tune it back to a fine spot ty.

    As long as there's no way for a DC to take a "DPS slot" in a Random party, there's no reason to try to convince the developers to make enough changes to make a DC into a viable DPS. They aren't now, they won't be after these changes, and further changes to that would be a bad idea.
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lowjohn said:



    Lance Of Faith is not a good power and anyone who uses it as "the main at-will" of their DC does not really understand the DC class well. This will likely colour the seriousness with which the rest of your critique is taken.

    LoF with higher divinity/my at-will rotation fill in 3 pips divinity faster than any other DO setup. And what are you using then? SF for that tiny bit temp hp or ASeal with low heal per few seconds? If you mean spamming only BoB then please read the whole post carefully, I am writing for DODC and as an DODC, not ACDC. And even for DO, there are tons of DODC running LoF, because it hits the divinity/at-will rotation cap. If you dont even know the divinity gain threshold+their respective at-will combination, I have no clue whether you understand and test DC or not.
    lowjohn said:


    Why? Solo, you already do plenty of DPS (and Forgemaster is a nice part of that, especially with how fast it casts). In a group, you're never going to do enough DPS to make up for the loss of the buffs/debuffs you should be giving the ACTUAL DPS. By using powers that increase your own damage instead of the damage of the DPS classes, you're decreasing the overall DPS the group does.

    Please reread my post and the first post from dev. Devs are planning to remove DO from the support pool so no more 2 DC for dungeon runs. Therefore, I suggest to boost personal DPS to compensate the removal of DO from support pool. Did you even read the second paragraph of my post? If you dont then here is it :
    "I do agree to pull off the support ability of DO but with a trade of personal damage buff.... and i mean HUGE DAMAGE!!!!"

    What you are suggesting or your stance from you previous post for me is just like some random unconstructive rants.
    "Oh DODC dont need personal damage, their buff is stronger for party dps"
    "LoL why DC need dps, you are playing wrong, you dont understand your classes"

    100% fully rant + non-constructive. And you even asked about why not using BTS/FF but PoD...
    lowjohn said:


    The nerf is only to Empowered PoD. If you were using Empowered stacks on PoD, you weren't using them on BTS or FF, and you were making a mistake that lowered the DPS of yourself and your party.

    Reducing the Empowered debuff of PoD is a useful reminder that PoD should never be cast Empowered.

    Read back the first post from devs, starting from M15, AC will run BTS, and DO if still there, will run empowered PoD. READ CAREFULLY before you rant TY.
    lowjohn said:


    While soloing, this will effectively be a +35% increase to your personal DPS, which is pretty good. In a group, it will be an effective +0% increase to the group's total DPS, which is very very bad.

    Read my stance again:
    "I do agree to pull off the support ability of DO but with a trade of personal damage buff.... and i mean HUGE DAMAGE!!!!"

    And new proposed TI by dev with 25% damage buff + 10% debuff is not equal to 35% increase to personal dps, you cant calculate debuff as direct damage increase. Kindly read michela and sharp guide and spreadsheet before commenting, TY. I hardly accept the fact that you are a veteran player now...
    lowjohn said:


    As long as there's no way for a DC to take a "DPS slot" in a Random party, there's no reason to try to convince the developers to make enough changes to make a DC into a viable DPS. They aren't now, they won't be after these changes, and further changes to that would be a bad idea.

    So what IL are you? Do you and your party need a healer slot? If yes I feel sorry for you, are you 6k IL newbie? Random party never need a healer, and if yes, isnt a good dpser with high healing is even better? If you dont know healing is DC's by product when dpsing I have no clue whether you understand this class or not.

    NW never need a healer to heal. And if your team is so weak, swap one encounter for BoH, or change to Faithful loadout.

    End note:
    If I understand correctly, your stance is "No devs you are wrong, you should not nerf DO, and we dont need any dps alternatives. We want 2 DC meta (actually is 4 support... well...) "
    "Please delete this whole thread, no M15 update for DC, no compromisation needed. Thread closed".

    As I said, 0% constructive rant post. LoL... wasting my time to reply a newbie DC.
    Post edited by jazzfong on
  • icexnineicexnine Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lowjohn said:


    jazzfong said:

    End note:
    I sincerely hope after this patch, DO DPS DC can compete for with other secondary dps in game, with little utility but sufficient damage output to be included in any non-optimal group composition. In terms of devs side, you guys removed a support classes from the pool of support, for DC player side, we get an extra dps path and a meaningful gear progression direction to deal nice dps in comparison to other classes. Please kindly revise and give some feedback on it ty. Lets try to buff DO DPS, and launch it on preview, then slowly tune it back to a fine spot ty.

    As long as there's no way for a DC to take a "DPS slot" in a Random party, there's no reason to try to convince the developers to make enough changes to make a DC into a viable DPS. They aren't now, they won't be after these changes, and further changes to that would be a bad idea.
    there is. look into it


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    > @scorpioneitaa said:
    > RIP DO :(
    >
    > Now it will be OP + AC all the time, sadly GF is going in the bin too, as a tank. Why not just remove the class all together, so people are not disappointed when they start a useless class?
    >
    > DC DO players have the options to switch AC.
    > DO isn't the whole class.
    > You think you have it bad? *stares at tr thread* :)
    > Plenty of classes have Paths that are meh. *looks at gwf*

    At that point we have the option to build any nee class. You cant use do equip on a ac build. Its ground up rebuild. And a totally different playstle and spped. It might as well be an alien species

    And for the ppl saying but oh boy personal dps is raised. 1 its only 5 more percent bc we were already affected by the previous buff. And even then our dps doesnt even compare w other dps buffers who still have buffs to bring to the party. We would have to b able to compete w gwf and hrs to be included as a dps class and i dont see that happening
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User

    RIP DO :(

    DC DO players have the options to switch AC.

    That's a joke.

    It's about the same as starting entirely over. Enchants, all companions, artifacts, neck/belt all need to be redone and AC is much more gear intensive. At least the boons are still unlocked right?

  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    This change is total trash.

    You've basically killed DO. It was already second fiddle to Annointed Army and it already had worse dps & survivabilty of all the other classes.

    So you take away its group support and give it a slight dps buff leaving it still totally inferior to dps with poor survivability.

    Secondly, the only way for current DOs to switch to AC is to redo all their gear: artifacts, all 5 companions, enchants, mount power... And while we're trying to do that, we're not viable ACs and we're not wanted as DO. What makes this acceptable to you? Didn't it cross your mind that maybe we sunk enough time & money the first time around?

    At the same time you give virtually unkillable OPs a dps increase, really that's class balance???


    Either use one of the more creative balanced solutions people have suggested to fix the minor problem you're trying to solve (instead of wrecking DO) or buff DO and change it to DPS.





  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User

    RIP DO :(

    Now it will be OP + AC all the time, sadly GF is going in the bin too, as a tank. Why not just remove the class all together, so people are not disappointed when they start a useless class?

    gf still has the best single target damage to kill bosses faster
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    icexnine said:

    lowjohn said:


    jazzfong said:

    End note:
    I sincerely hope after this patch, DO DPS DC can compete for with other secondary dps in game, with little utility but sufficient damage output to be included in any non-optimal group composition. In terms of devs side, you guys removed a support classes from the pool of support, for DC player side, we get an extra dps path and a meaningful gear progression direction to deal nice dps in comparison to other classes. Please kindly revise and give some feedback on it ty. Lets try to buff DO DPS, and launch it on preview, then slowly tune it back to a fine spot ty.

    As long as there's no way for a DC to take a "DPS slot" in a Random party, there's no reason to try to convince the developers to make enough changes to make a DC into a viable DPS. They aren't now, they won't be after these changes, and further changes to that would be a bad idea.
    there is. look into it


    do dc can play dps on private queue on public queue it will be a waste of time(because system dont know if the char is dps/healer/tank ^^
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    If the Preview changes go through more or less intact, basically rendering DO the unwanted DC Path, I'll be wishing we had an NPC willing to trade Black Ice 1:1 for Radiants.

    If the devs actually push forward a compelling and effective vision for DO as a strong DPS-with-benefits, I'll be intrigued. I'm just not at all optimistic that this will happen.

    Even if DO does by some miracle become a true DPS DC Paragon, players who got away with choosing to play DO without supporting damage because of their party buffs will be completely disenfranchised and be forced to swap to AC or accept pity invitations for their sub-par DOs.
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  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Or only run dungeons in their alliances, assuming they are in alliances that actually work with each other, and will work to get dungeons completed no matter party composition. We have had 8 hour ToNGs in my alliance, so we stick to it until it gets done.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    This is from a guy who has a 17k DC that has been geared out for AC power sharing:

    If any type of DC should be nerfed, it should be the AC DC power-share build. It is just too strong. There is already a power-share tank in the game (OP with Aura Gifts), let that class be the one that needs to completely max out power for sharing it with the team. In fact, considering how Assassin's Covenant works, that would be a more logical choice for "the" power share character! But, both power-sharing OP and power-sharing AC DC together is just too much. If you just deleted the Battle Fervor feat, and cut Anointed Army's power share in half, that would be just fine in my view.

    But if you're not going to do that, and if you are intent on nerfing DO, then nerf Terrifying Insight - fine, I can accept the argument that this class feature is too strong for the exactly zero amount of work that DC's have to do in order to utilize it - but adjust the DO DC powers accordingly so that they can provide a utility that is comparable to the AC DC's power sharing for higher end groups.

    For example, what you might do is to nerf TI, but to adjust Brand of the Sun so that it grants Damage Reduction to all allies which strike the target. Or, buff the amount of Damage Resistance from the Benefit of Foresight feat to a really tantalizing level.

    But if you nerf DO DC, while doing nothing about power-sharing AC DC, you really are just killing off one paragon path for group play. It will be useful for soloing content for sure, but not beyond that.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    chemjeff said:



    But if you're not going to do that, and if you are intent on nerfing DO, then nerf Terrifying Insight - fine, I can accept the argument that this class feature is too strong for the exactly zero amount of work that DC's have to do in order to utilize it - but adjust the DO DC powers accordingly so that they can provide a utility that is comparable to the AC DC's power sharing for higher end groups.

    Particularly, something comparable *that doesn't stack with the AC*. Because you want people to bring a DC, not two DCs with stacking different buffs.

    If you want to get away from the 4-support--DPS meta, one obvious solution to "all of these support buffs stack and that's why 4 support is best" is to MAKE THE BUFFS NOT ALL STACK. You know, like you did with potions and food and trinkets?
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