@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
The problem not just that the dungeon does not requires everfrost resistance .. from what i know unlike REQ... the RAQ dungeons does not requires to unlock the dungeons..its automatically unlocks upon reaching 11k ilvls . therefore a new lvl70s toon need just get vistani gears/barovia hunts gears and slap a couple of artifacts can more or less que for RAQ... no experience / boons of the relevant campaign requires..
If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.
I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..
I would suggest ... instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..
For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest) Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)
It isn't the newcomers that need incentive, but rather the experienced players to bear with them and pull them through. Newcomers would happily queue into everything, but are unlikely to finish even if there was 100mil AD in the chest.
said i'd do it. soloed to turtle, what's more than i promised. easy.
If I look at the consumption of scrolls and the amount of death, i dont think it was that "easy". But you proofed it can be done. So its ok for me.
It IS solo tho. I could've done it without that many scrolls, at least the uphill. I'm just a lazy man. And if I really wanted to go full tryhard, I'd use a different setup. Fey instead of lightning, rings with off/def slots on pet for lifesteal and defense boon on me. That way I'd be practically immortal but too much AD and time.
I'm not entirely sure of how RAQ is working, it seems to let you queue without unlocking any dungeons and even put you in un-unlocked dungeons and probably if you have any of the dungeon unlocked, put you only in that dungeon.
its put you to any dungeon in queue if you have recommend IL and at least 1 unlocked dungeon in queue.
"sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"
That way I'd be practically immortal but too much AD and time.
Nop. You arent, but its ok. You made it uphill, but i think it wasnt easy at all. Its still challenging and hard for a lot of players. I like the ideas from @talon1970
@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
The problem not just that the dungeon does not requires everfrost resistance .. from what i know unlike REQ... the RAQ dungeons does not requires to unlock the dungeons..its automatically unlocks upon reaching 11k ilvls . therefore a new lvl70s toon need just get vistani gears/barovia hunts gears and slap a couple of artifacts can more or less que for RAQ... no experience / boons of the relevant campaign requires..
If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.
I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..
I would suggest ... instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..
For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest) Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)
It isn't the newcomers that need incentive, but rather the experienced players to bear with them and pull them through. Newcomers would happily queue into everything, but are unlikely to finish even if there was 100mil AD in the chest.
When FBI/MSVA/MSP was end game content, The ilvl are not that high i recall during that time my gear score is bout 11k or less comparing to current standards and able to complete it.. why do people willing to explore and complete it even its so hard back then?
The answer was same as why people keep going to CR now.. its the rewards
New players cant expect/depends on others to carry/explain through every content, no one is obligated to help..everyone has limited time in gaming and entitle to have their own fun
Players will need to depends on own self instead of expecting savoir/hero to show up all the time..from what i witnessed some runs before even start while at camp fire players already started leaving after seeing who they paired with .. some give it a couple of try and left .. with extra incentive might encourage them to stay longer ..able to do a couple of complete runs will give a player rough idea on the dungeon mechanics
With reasonable incentive new players might even setup own premade with friends or guildies to venture into the dungeon, instead of just jumping into RAQ and hope to get lucky.
During my RAQ runs (been doing it almost daily with a friend who newly joined the game for RAD) Most of time from what i witnessed the one who leave que 1st is normally the 13k and below players and it often left just two of us in instance till no one shows up after awhile we abandon .
Also i doubt there be many geared players will willing to spend time in these dungeons ... the time spent is more than going for another round or two of ToNG which is much more rewarding..
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
The problem not just that the dungeon does not requires everfrost resistance .. from what i know unlike REQ... the RAQ dungeons does not requires to unlock the dungeons..its automatically unlocks upon reaching 11k ilvls . therefore a new lvl70s toon need just get vistani gears/barovia hunts gears and slap a couple of artifacts can more or less que for RAQ... no experience / boons of the relevant campaign requires..
If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.
I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..
I would suggest ... instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..
For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest) Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)
It isn't the newcomers that need incentive, but rather the experienced players to bear with them and pull them through. Newcomers would happily queue into everything, but are unlikely to finish even if there was 100mil AD in the chest.
When FBI/MSVA/MSP was end game content, The ilvl are not that high i recall during that time my gear score is bout 11k or less comparing to current standards and able to complete it.. why do people willing to explore and complete it even its so hard back then?
The answer was same as why people keep going to CR now.. its the rewards
New players cant expect/depends on others to carry/explain through every content, no one is obligated to help..everyone has limited time in gaming and entitle to have their own fun
Players will need to depends on own self instead of expecting savoir/hero to show up all the time..from what i witnessed some runs before even start while at camp fire players already started leaving after seeing who they paired with .. some give it a couple of try and left .. with extra incentive might encourage them to stay longer ..able to do a couple of complete runs will give a player rough idea on the dungeon mechanics
With reasonable incentive new players might even setup own premade with friends or guildies to venture into the dungeon, instead of just jumping into RAQ and hope to get lucky.
During my RAQ runs (been doing it almost daily with a friend who newly joined the game for RAD) Most of time from what i witnessed the one who leave que 1st is normally the 13k and below players and it often left just two of us in instance till no one shows up after awhile we abandon .
Also i doubt there be many geared players will willing to spend time in these dungeons ... the time spent is more than going for another round or two of ToNG which is much more rewarding..
When FBI/MSVA/MSP was end game content, experienced players (in regard to gameplay and mechanics, not with the dungeon) had the incentive and were willing to do it, hence it was completable. 'New players', assuming we have the same definition, cannot finish it if they tried for 10 hours. It's about adding rewards for players, not 'new players'.
To sum it up and in general: One view is compiled by mainly solo players ,who play with the people they find:so they run with unoptimized parties.They tend to exaggerate the content difficulty.
the other view is comprised by people that run with optimised parties or with high IL friends.They think game is piece of cake. Truth lies in the middle.
This is one of the wisest things said in this entire thread.
Trying to set things somewhere in the middle though would probably just leave everyone unhappy. This is why I feel the two best solutions are to either: - Create different difficulty tiers: add 'normal' for the first group, 'legendary' for the second group, and call the current content 'master' or 'epic' for those in between.
OR
- Get rid of the massively multiplying buffs that make optimized groups orders of magnitude more powerful than random pickup groups. Then just add normal versions of dungeons/trials. Since the current versions would get MUCH harder for the optimizers, legendary would be redundant.
---
In light of the current topic though, you could easily make a normal version of FBI (and an easier nSVA) by getting rid of Everfrost damage in them. They eventually got rid of Black Ice damage in IWD and Kessel's in less time than Everfrost has been around (iirc), and the world didn't end. You could get rid of Everfrost in the current versions too, but maybe up the regular damage enough to equal what 40-50% EFR would be now.
There is a lot of back and forth about minutia details. Problem is PUG doing FBI dungeon can = a colossal waste of time for veterans and being discouraging to noobs and no one enjoying themselves. The game is suppose to be fun.
Just pull FBI out of the random rotation. If you want to do it, form up a party and do it. Both vets and noobs win.
FBI still fine as is, not needed for nerfs, it is suppose to be learning end-game before taking ToNG and Castle Ravenloft. if you asking for nerf, then you wont learn to survive other end-game dungeons, then you start crying or begging to nerf all the end-game dungeons? i have to learn from my mistakes and expect to do better next time i go.
only the hardest part is those giants on uphill route, it was designed to test "threshold" of party groups.
I am sure in future new dungeon runs will have similar Barovia's "hunt scaling format" for different stages of challenges.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
FBI is one of the few dungeons that can be cleared at minimum IL required (yes, 10k in private or 11k in public), if you know what you're doing and have a decent group composition (which means 1 tank that actually tanks and 1 healer that actually heals). It's 99% about mechanics. The problem is that people deliberately ignore the mechanics even when you tell them, I have seen walls more reactive to advice than certain people I had the misfortune of grouping with. Especially when it comes to turtle. I even made a topic about the strat for pugs for that fight once. Boy I wish I hadn't wasted the time.
FBI is mostly fine. If there had to be a nerf, it would probably be on some of the trash before the first boss, the bears could have less CC resistance (it's something like 75%, which sucks, as CC would be a nice way for low levels to counter their vicious damage) and the second to last group (the one before the ramp, where there's the warchanter patrol), could use one giant less, but that's it, really. Everything else is where it should be. But this just for icing on the cake, it's not strictly necessary.
FBI is one of the few dungeons that can be cleared at minimum IL required (yes, 10k in private or 11k in public), if you know what you're doing and have a decent group composition (which means 1 tank that actually tanks and 1 healer that actually heals). It's 99% about mechanics. The problem is that people deliberately ignore the mechanics even when you tell them, I have seen walls more reactive to advice than certain people I had the misfortune of grouping with. Especially when it comes to turtle. I even made a topic about the strat for pugs for that fight once. Boy I wish I hadn't wasted the time.
FBI is mostly fine. If there had to be a nerf, it would probably be on some of the trash before the first boss, the bears could have less CC resistance (it's something like 75%, which sucks, as CC would be a nice way for low levels to counter their vicious damage) and the second to last group (the one before the ramp, where there's the warchanter patrol), could use one giant less, but that's it, really. Everything else is where it should be. But this just for icing on the cake, it's not strictly necessary.
I saw that thread you posted and now heed that advice whenever RAQ throws me into FBI. Got past the turtle every time so it I don't feel it was a waste, @klangeddin. In fact, I (as someone who mostly pugs) would appreciate more that kind of information be consolidated and shared in the forums. I know the guides sections has many of them but if you notice, kernels of advice are sometimes scattered throughout other threads rather than one location like you and other posters have placed in your strat guides and threads. Don't lose heart. Some of us chuckleheads can and do learn.
Now on topic. I hope they do not nerf FBI as it is (like @wylonus and others have pointed out) a great tool for introducing newer players to the mechanics of endgame play in places like ToNG, CoDG and CR. Places where you either learn and respect the mechanics or you enjoy chatting with your new friends at the fire circle. Nerfing it, I feel, would be a disservice to them - both by not exposing them to the challenge of how much harder the dungeons will get as well as the need for them to up their game through performance-wise and gear-wise. It would also, imho, indirectly send a signal to them that they are not good enough to complete the challenge on their own so the devs dumbed it down for them. They will never have an incentive to learn and improve that way. My two coppers.
It is a miracle to get people who will listen about the turtle mechanics, but they definitely work. Beating the dungeon because of teamwork and communication (instead of brute force) is one of the best feelings in the game.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Actually we should increase the difficulty by a factor of x3 for all dungeons/skirmishes/trials because they're too easy, hell even better make it by a factor of x5 while you're at it. People who don't have 17k+ gear score and are not part of a bis party ,shouldn't be able to play any epic dungeons,anyway. Actually now that i think about it normal content is so easy a blind child can complete it......increase its difficulty by a factor of x10. After doing this create a compulsory patronage program that forces any and all 16k+ Veterans to become patrons of every new player that can't complete any content. That way they'll have to play all game content ,whether they like it or not, and it will keep them from getting bored. See now everyone is happy and plays the game.
no, no changes to FBI, we need that as "baseline guide" end-game, not nerfing or scale up. it was suppose to teach and train players to be prepare for next challenges in other end-game zones.
if you want better challenges, we can use "hunt" format with some specific "challenge shards" for easy mode to extreme mode to select for heroic runs.
People who don't have 17k+ gear score and are not part of a bis party ,shouldn't be able to play any epic dungeons,anyway.
It is correct that there very well could be SOME dungeons they cannot play. It is a fundamental principle of mmorpgs that content unlocks as you develop your character, at low gear levels you are not supposed to be able to play everything in game.
This module was the root of all the issues, all the quits for the majority of the playerbase long ago and still the gate for many players, which even with all the power creep followed later, can't go through. I don't think this one need a nerf, but the game definitely need something between CN and FBI.
Like an upgraded Throne of Idris, Mad Dragon, or Dread Vault, perhaps? Would be nice, if and when they come back. I think, if done right, could serve as that bridge. My two coppers.
Comments
But you proofed it can be done. So its ok for me.
its put you to any dungeon in queue if you have recommend IL and at least 1 unlocked dungeon in queue.
I like the ideas from @talon1970
The ilvl are not that high i recall during that time my gear score is bout 11k or less comparing to current standards and able to complete it.. why do people willing to explore and complete it even its so hard back then?
The answer was same as why people keep going to CR now.. its the rewards
New players cant expect/depends on others to carry/explain through every content, no one is obligated to help..everyone has limited time in gaming and entitle to have their own fun
Players will need to depends on own self instead of expecting savoir/hero to show up all the time..from what i witnessed some runs before even start while at camp fire players already started leaving after seeing who they paired with .. some give it a couple of try and left .. with extra incentive might encourage them to stay longer ..able to do a couple of complete runs will give a player rough idea on the dungeon mechanics
With reasonable incentive new players might even setup own premade with friends or guildies to venture into the dungeon, instead of just jumping into RAQ and hope to get lucky.
During my RAQ runs (been doing it almost daily with a friend who newly joined the game for RAD)
Most of time from what i witnessed the one who leave que 1st is normally the 13k and below players and it often left just two of us in instance till no one shows up after awhile we abandon .
Also i doubt there be many geared players will willing to spend time in these dungeons ... the time spent is more than going for another round or two of ToNG which is much more rewarding..
Trying to set things somewhere in the middle though would probably just leave everyone unhappy. This is why I feel the two best solutions are to either:
- Create different difficulty tiers: add 'normal' for the first group, 'legendary' for the second group, and call the current content 'master' or 'epic' for those in between.
OR
- Get rid of the massively multiplying buffs that make optimized groups orders of magnitude more powerful than random pickup groups. Then just add normal versions of dungeons/trials. Since the current versions would get MUCH harder for the optimizers, legendary would be redundant.
---
In light of the current topic though, you could easily make a normal version of FBI (and an easier nSVA) by getting rid of Everfrost damage in them. They eventually got rid of Black Ice damage in IWD and Kessel's in less time than Everfrost has been around (iirc), and the world didn't end. You could get rid of Everfrost in the current versions too, but maybe up the regular damage enough to equal what 40-50% EFR would be now.
Just pull FBI out of the random rotation. If you want to do it, form up a party and do it. Both vets and noobs win.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
if you asking for nerf, then you wont learn to survive other end-game dungeons, then you start crying or begging to nerf all the end-game dungeons?
i have to learn from my mistakes and expect to do better next time i go.
only the hardest part is those giants on uphill route, it was designed to test "threshold" of party groups.
I am sure in future new dungeon runs will have similar Barovia's "hunt scaling format" for different stages of challenges.
It's 99% about mechanics.
The problem is that people deliberately ignore the mechanics even when you tell them, I have seen walls more reactive to advice than certain people I had the misfortune of grouping with. Especially when it comes to turtle. I even made a topic about the strat for pugs for that fight once. Boy I wish I hadn't wasted the time.
FBI is mostly fine. If there had to be a nerf, it would probably be on some of the trash before the first boss, the bears could have less CC resistance (it's something like 75%, which sucks, as CC would be a nice way for low levels to counter their vicious damage) and the second to last group (the one before the ramp, where there's the warchanter patrol), could use one giant less, but that's it, really. Everything else is where it should be.
But this just for icing on the cake, it's not strictly necessary.
Now on topic. I hope they do not nerf FBI as it is (like @wylonus and others have pointed out) a great tool for introducing newer players to the mechanics of endgame play in places like ToNG, CoDG and CR. Places where you either learn and respect the mechanics or you enjoy chatting with your new friends at the fire circle. Nerfing it, I feel, would be a disservice to them - both by not exposing them to the challenge of how much harder the dungeons will get as well as the need for them to up their game through performance-wise and gear-wise. It would also, imho, indirectly send a signal to them that they are not good enough to complete the challenge on their own so the devs dumbed it down for them. They will never have an incentive to learn and improve that way. My two coppers.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
if you want better challenges, we can use "hunt" format with some specific "challenge shards" for easy mode to extreme mode to select for heroic runs.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac