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Is it time to nerf FBI yet?

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  • chivonicachivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    They say a picture paints a thousand words and yours truly illustrate what this discussion is about.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    Isn't the incentive in doing FBI to learn it and its mechanics so that they can go on to do To9G and CR?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • if it's time to nerf fbi it's time to add more dungeons, tougher ones.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • chivonicachivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Climbing the hill is one the mechanics they have to learn.

    greywynd said:

    Isn't the incentive in doing FBI to learn it and its mechanics so that they can go on to do To9G and CR?

    There is no incentive to learn FBI mechanics as it stands; none of the bosses need the climb mechanics. As already stated by several people opposed to adjustments, players can just ignore FBI and move on to To9G/CR. Take a look at the graphs; there is no reason the harshness of the mechanics can not be toned down or introduced steadily while still allowing players to experience such things.
  • chivonicachivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Nobody here is saying "get good scrub", you guys keep bringing that up and it is clearly false.
    Idk if that will show but go read the discussion in full. You are wrong.
  • chivonicachivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User

    if it's time to nerf fbi it's time to add more dungeons, tougher ones.

    Unfortunately what we want and what we get can be two different things.
  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    chivonica said:


    There is no incentive to learn FBI mechanics as it stands; none of the bosses need the climb mechanics.

    None of the bosses need the clim mechanic => Somewhat not true
    I myself talked a lot about that climb "mechanic", but explaining that it's not like a boss mechanic that you need to do in order to pass it. It's more about understanding how to play with a team, and optimize your own character in a dungeon.

    It's about movement, placement, rotations, coordination, timing, synergy. Climbing the hill is not a mechanic like the Soul counter in Ras Nsi, unique for a boss, climbing the hill is a mechanic that you are needed to understand for EVERY endgame content as a group. And not only for the hill in FBI, but for every group of mobs in higher dungeon, and every boss. What you learn in terms of gameplay and teamplay when you're in a team that struggle in FBI is what you need to have as basis for higher content.
    chivonica said:


    As already stated by several people opposed to adjustments, players can just ignore FBI and move on to To9G/CR. Take a look at the graphs; there is no reason the harshness of the mechanics can not be toned down or introduced steadily while still allowing players to experience such things.

    Several things:
    Players can just ignore FBI and move to tong/cr. That is true.
    However, if these players just ignore FBI and move to this content in random queue, it's an auto fail, and that's totally normal. Players that skip content A and come freshly against content B that's way harder, without knowing a thing about endgame content are goind to fail. and it's a good thing as they're not prepared at all to do it.

    So what people do when they continuously fail a dungeon with every random queue they're doing? 3 things:
    - Get back to the content they skipped, thinking "Maybe if this dungeon is here it's to teach me something about the game? Maybe this dungeon is an intermediate content in terms of difficulty and I should try it before going to that high dungeon I keep failing to complete?". This should lead to a simple research on internet, get builds, informations on buff
    - Get themselves a run in the dungeon they want with guilds/friends willing to help him learn and understand. And if they do that, they'll be able to do FBI after that without problem. You noticed that everyone in a guild don't struggle to pass FBI. This hill is a wall for players that didn't have the chance to have such friends to help them, and an indicator of their current understanding of their own class and how to teamplay.
    - Come to the forum and post nerf threads


    By the way, chemjeff's graphes are not correct in my opinion. CN-FBI gap is lower, and FBI-MSP and MSP-TONG gap are way higher.
  • welshdemonwelshdemon Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    As an OP I get frustrated because that hill is a nightmare and if I get a good group then it is ok but most players have never done fbi and they just leave which annoys me so much instead of staying and doing the hill. So my thing is why should I try when they don't want to imo item lvl should be increased on fbi.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 873 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    We should nerf the "nerf dungeons" mentality!
    This is not Wow!

    Power creep is too big. Content is already easy for premades.

    Hard dungeon?
    -Join a guild! Use TS/Discord with your guildmates and friends and find out a strategy!
    -Level your character! The recommended dungeon Item levels won't guarantee success!
    In fact recommended IL = "your HAMSTER can be carried in this dungeon"!
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 891 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    kozi001 said:

    We should nerf the "nerf dungeons" mentality!
    This is not Wow!

    Power creep is too big. Content is already easy for premades.

    Hard dungeon?
    -Join a guild! Use TS/Discord with your guildmates and friends and find out a strategy!
    -Level your character! The recommended dungeon Item levels won't guarantee success!
    In fact recommended IL = "your HAMSTER can be carried in this dungeon"!


    I agree with most of this but "Use TS/Discord " is not needed. Many do not want to do that and it is not needed and impling that it is will cause an even worse exodus from this game.


    EDIT ESP Considiring that dungeons like FBI is doable with guildies at 10k IL (we have carried a 10k op tank through fbi so it is doable) NO VOICE SERVER USED. The true solution is a return of master/normal version of dungeons giving people a chance to learn the mechanics in a safe environment then it will be less of a shock. FBI is not hard if you do not aproach it as a dps race to finish in less than 30 min
    Post edited by mynaam on
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    They could always gate a dungeon behind a successful run of the previous dungeon.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • polaris1986polaris1986 Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    Problem of FBI is a Everfrost. And you can join this dungeon without resistance.

    I thing that need just a big RED worning if you haven't enough frost resistance for dungeon.
    just like in highest locations when you joined it on low level.

    yeah, mobs/boss mechanic may be hard for new players, but the same own mechanics have SC. And SC also have a hard fights but not on the start of dungeon. But isn't a big difference.

    If you can finish FBI with 11 IL - so go, if you not ready - so leave it. But you should be informed that this dungeon is hurd for you.

    and yes, healers should just a little heals party, tanks should agring and live on mobs. Try this strategy.
    I played by DC with low IL tanks, and I played by small tank with a nice DC, its ok. but... you cant go if your ally dont know him char.
    "sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"

  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    A part of the problem is that people think they can go into "end-game" content, just because the have the minimum IL required, and that simply isn't true.

    Example: I ran a random dungeon yesterday - team was DC (me), GF, TR and 2 HRs. I was running my DO loadout in full buff/debuff mode, and fully expected to do the least damage, but no, the order was TR > GF > DC > 2xHR. Yes, a DC just buffing and debuffing out-DPSed two of the DPsers. I looked at them, and yes, they had an IL of just over 13K, but somewhat weird choice of gear and artifacts. Not much you can do about it, but it is a bit frustrating.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,759 Arc User
    I've got a guild member, been playing a little over a week. Got the Vistani gear. Got a couple of artifacts from the guild. Most of what they've been working on is Barovia, some Chult, maybe started intro chains for other campaigns. So not much in the way of gear or experience or boons from all those campaigns they haven't done yet.

    "I am end game." (facepalm)
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,449 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I looked at them, and yes, they had an IL of just over 13K, but somewhat weird choice of gear and artifacts. Not much you can do about it, but it is a bit frustrating.

    Quoted for truth.

    You can get a high iL artificially by buying cheap Rank9/10 Enchants from the AH and leveling them up pretty easily once you have QM Enchants for the RP. But those enchants wont add much to your combat ability.

    I know this because I am now re-building my GF as their enchants were all rank 12 but rubbish ones, too much life steal which sucks big time!

    SO it about experience of WHAT enchants to use and how to use them as well ...

    Generally speaking NW is way too complicated which leads to low player ability in game
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I try to read all the comments ,interesting thread.

    As all things in life,truth is somewhere between the two views:
    FBI does not need a nerf,but things are no so easy as many claim.

    The difference between the two views can be explained by the perception and the gaming experience between the two sides:
    It has lees to do with gear and more to do with gameplkay behaviour and socialization.

    And I explain:
    Chemjeff's view,players,play the game whenever they have the time,cannot wait too long to form parties and they cannot rely on thier FL.So they will pug a lot ,and most of the times, they will play with a non "optimal" grp composition

    .One DC,if any,not the best most of the times or barely adequate,sometimes not even a Dc will fell the healer role but an OP Dev.50% of the cases the Dev OP will the the loadout of a Prot OP,that means unoptimized build for solo healer/buffer.

    The tank will be either a good pally,an unexperienced pally or a low to mid IL GF,or a high IL GF.As you see there are 50% chances the run to be doomed from the start,talking about FBI.Unexperienced pallies,and low to mid Il Gfs cannot tank FBI.

    The DPS can range from low Il-unadequate ,to mid IL to good DPS.If you get low IL or no exp DPS you are going for a lengthy FBI run .

    Now someone better at maths with me,can add the possibilities of failure depending on random player selection.
    I think the failure rate is going to be very big.

    The only time FBI is going to be easy is if you get adequate Healer/buffer and a good tank and sufficient performance DPS.
    the chances are slim;In @micky1p00 video ,was lucky:a very good DC,an adequate tank,and another high IL DPS.This is not always the case.

    ----------

    To sum it up and in general:
    One view is compiled by mainly solo players ,who play with the people they find:so they run with unoptimized parties.They tend to exaggerate the content difficulty.

    the other view is comprised by people that run with optimised parties or with high IL friends.They think game is piece of cake.
    Truth lies in the middle.
    Post edited by hypervoreian on
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    agilesto said:


    By the way, chemjeff's graphes are not correct in my opinion. CN-FBI gap is lower, and FBI-MSP and MSP-TONG gap are way higher.

    I personally think MSP is easier than FBI, from my point of view, in a premade group. There are no mobs comparable to the giants in FBI, there is no separate Everfrost damage, and as long as everyone understands the mechanics of the three bosses, the only real challenging part is the second boss, and this can still be completed even if one or two DPS characters fall off the platform, even if the tank falls off the platform, as long as the DC and a semi-competent DPS character remains. And none of the mechanics of the three bosses are nearly as tricky as Drufi's icicle/call of winter mechanic in FBI. I have actually had more success overall solo queueing into MSP on my DC, than I have solo queueing into FBI on my DC.
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute...

    @checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?

    But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.

    Really, i mean really....

    Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:

    Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?

    Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.

    So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?

  • helric9helric9 Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    tilrod2 said:

    Or lock RAQ until they get the needed everfrost resistance. To queue for a random dungeon you have to fullfill all requirements not only gearscore.

    Can be the solution, or let's players queu for RAQ but they can only match dungeon already unlocked.
    But anyway i guess we'll see very soon a rework on queu system.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Leave the difficulty where it is. Change the rewards from elven garbage. Same with MSP. Give better rewards, and more high geared players will run. Please don't change it like they did with CN, giving Orcus 5x the HP, but he hits like a girl now, because people said he was too hard. If the rewards don't justify the time, players that can complete TONG, CODG, CR with not much trouble, are going to stay there and farm better rewards.

    ex: last night ran RAQ with alliance members, got MSP, took a little under an hour as 2 had never run, and gives me a white pearl in the one chest, and emerald in the other, with some elven armor.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    Also I think they shouldn't put more than 1 "new player" into a que. Recipe for disaster.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    @spidey#3367

    said i'd do it. soloed to turtle, what's more than i promised. easy.

  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    Nerf FBI?
    No, never.

    Oltreverso guild leader
    Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
  • corellon359corellon359 Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    FBI should at least have an unlock requirement of the crystal that gives you the 30% EF resist.

    I agree. just hitting the 11K i-level just is not enough for that run. You need the EF resist, and the 10% you can get on your "Clothes" and the extra for the potions just wont cut it.
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    talon1970 said:

    Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?

    Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.

    So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?

    I'm not entirely sure of how RAQ is working, it seems to let you queue without unlocking any dungeons and even put you in un-unlocked dungeons and probably if you have any of the dungeon unlocked, put you only in that dungeon.

    Not advocating this thread but I shall forward that request.
    FrozenFire
  • jase2cooljase2cool Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    talon1970 said:

    Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute...

    @checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?

    But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.

    Really, i mean really....

    Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:

    Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?

    Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.

    So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?

    The problem not just that the dungeon does not requires everfrost resistance .. from what i know unlike REQ... the RAQ dungeons does not requires to unlock the dungeons..its automatically unlocks upon reaching 11k ilvls . therefore a new lvl70s toon need just get vistani gears/barovia hunts gears and slap a couple of artifacts can more or less que for RAQ... no experience / boons of the relevant campaign requires..

    If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.

    I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..

    I would suggest ...
    instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..

    For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest)
    Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)
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