And considering the reason for the nerf was crying and whining, I'm now providing an established working reason of crying and whining to buff it.
So why not buff EToS/EGWD/ECC too? Let's make those much harder, you know, to "toughen up" those solo queue players. Why not?
Yes yes, god forbid people will actually do something that is not button mashing. Your aversion to anything more interesting than repetitive mind numbing sleep inducing boredom is well known. That crippling phobia to listening to us, ivory tower elitists.... can't be that perhaps people who wasted thousands hours, and come from different backgrounds, perhaps have actual insight how to do thing better, or perhaps how the game can be improved to the benefit of everyone.
Nothing like some hyperboles and dismissvness to make your point. A true paragon of charm and great attitude. Maybe indeed if you got a bit spanked in etos when you were younger OP, you would have asked for help earlier and wouldn't died 10 times from bad positioning in FBI hill climb.
I got solo to turtle. Of course, I reset a few times cause I literally woke up 15 mins before doing the run. Prolly coulda soloed turtle too if I had 73 hours to scratch its shoulder to death. So yeah, no, FBI doesn't need a nerf.
This shouldn't have happened, but the fix is not in making the same issue worse, by nerfing FBI, as you only shift the same problem to the next dungeon, to tomb/msp or whatever.
That's right! Which is where the 'problem' should be at! In dungeons that actually provide compensatory rewards for all of that effort.
You want teams to struggle and suffer in 1 hour+ FBI runs, with rewards that at this point are no better than CN. Why?
Actually, try to read. I'm proposing for people to not get stuck for hour long FBIs. I propose a smoother and better expiriance at the same IL, and for the same RQ. By encouraging people to actually do more than mash buttons, or start with FBI as their first group content and fail miserably.
Why people should have 20min FBIs without knowing what they are doing, and then permanently stuck at tomb? This for sure will help their progress. I know it is a surprise to you, but most players actually move on from FBI and try to reach end-game.. Lets not make it /lfg 20k IL Tomb, because the average player comes from FBI without any glimpse of understanding how to play, and the average group for Tomb will try to compensate for it with enough IL to start a world war.
Yes yes, god forbid people will actually do something that is not button mashing.
Those are called endgame dungeons, where the rewards justify the extra effort required to complete those much harder dungeons.
You want dungeons that are just as difficult as endgame dungeons, from the point of view of solo queuers, but offer almost none of the rewards. For what purpose? To "toughen them up"?
That crippling phobia to listening to us, ivory tower elitists.... can't be that perhaps people who wasted thousands hours, and come from different backgrounds, perhaps have actual insight how to do thing better, or perhaps how the game can be improved to the benefit of everyone.
Oh this is rich coming from you, you who can't be bothered to get her hands dirty hobnobbing with the riffraff outside of her little private elite club.
I won't be lectured to from someone who refuses to even view the problem from other perspectives. Why don't you solo queue for FBI and post a video about it? I don't think you would make it 30 minutes before ragequitting in frustration. Better yet, do it on an undergeared alt and see how it goes. I did it. Why don't you?
Maybe indeed if you got a bit spanked in etos when you were younger OP, you would have asked for help earlier and wouldn't died 10 times from bad positioning in FBI hill climb.
So is that a "yes" on wanting to buff EToS/EGWD/ECC to make them harder?
Should there be ANY dungeons that can be just places to farm? Because you know, character progression in this game is based largely around repetitive farming. Those refinement points and rough AD aren't going to farm themselves you know.
This shouldn't have happened, but the fix is not in making the same issue worse, by nerfing FBI, as you only shift the same problem to the next dungeon, to tomb/msp or whatever.
That's right! Which is where the 'problem' should be at! In dungeons that actually provide compensatory rewards for all of that effort.
You want teams to struggle and suffer in 1 hour+ FBI runs, with rewards that at this point are no better than CN. Why?
Actually, try to read. I'm proposing for people to not get stuck for hour long FBIs. I propose a smoother and better expiriance at the same IL, and for the same RQ. By encouraging people to actually do more than mash buttons, or start with FBI as their first group content and fail miserably.
Why people should have 20min FBIs without knowing what they are doing, and then permanently stuck at tomb? This for sure will help their progress. I know it is a surprise to you, but most players actually move on from FBI and try to reach end-game.. Lets not make it /lfg 20k IL Tomb, because the average player comes from FBI without any glimpse of understanding how to play, and the average group for Tomb will try to compensate for it with enough IL to start a world war.
No, you just want people to be stuck in hour-long CN's instead, I suppose.
NO ONE HERE is suggesting "20 min FBI" for a random team, not even me. That is just a strawman. Neither I nor anyone else has argued in favor of fundamentally changing boss mechanics, changing mob mechanics, none of that. My point in starting this discussion, is to point out that at this point in the evolution of the game, when a dungeon like FBI does not offer any endgame rewards, they are scarcely better than CN's rewards at this point, it's time to flatten out the dungeon progression curve *a little bit*. There is no reason for that dungeon to be that hard for the rewards that it gives. If a team has to struggle that much just to get through it, then the dungeon should offer corresponding rewards. At least with TONG, players get IL 480 gear and a chance at a UE. So I am fine with random teams having a tough time with that dungeon. FBI? Not so much.
Oh and by the way. I have completed all of the content in this game. I have a 17k DC and a 16k GWF. I have done 30-40 min FBI's with them in premade groups. And yes, in those parties, with that level of gear, FBI is easy. So I have seen both sides of this coin. I will also say, that when I solo queue for FBI even on my DC or my GWF, it almost never takes less than 1 hour.
Wow. This debate seems to be getting pretty heated. I know both sides are passionate but we might want to step away and tone it down a notch. Just a thought.
Yes yes, god forbid people will actually do something that is not button mashing.
Those are called endgame dungeons, where the rewards justify the extra effort required to complete those much harder dungeons.
Hmm FBI probably has better AD/time ratio than tomb. And Cradle is better for UES than Tomb, what exactly justifies the extra effort for tomb? Or better, for CR?
You want dungeons that are just as difficult as endgame dungeons, from the point of view of solo queuers, but offer almost none of the rewards. For what purpose? To "toughen them up"?
I understand that all this blind hatred makes it hard to read, but where I've said to make dungeons as difficult as end-game dungeons?
That crippling phobia to listening to us, ivory tower elitists.... can't be that perhaps people who wasted thousands hours, and come from different backgrounds, perhaps have actual insight how to do thing better, or perhaps how the game can be improved to the benefit of everyone.
Oh this is rich coming from you, you who can't be bothered to get her hands dirty hobnobbing with the riffraff outside of her little private elite club.
Please do tell, what private elite club it is? I wanted to make hats and shirts, maybe pins too, but not sure to whom to deliver those. I don't have an issue running with low geared people, or people who have no clue what they are doing. I know many good people who can't distinguish one end of a dungeon from another. My criteria for people who I ran with is their attitude and not their game skills. This is why I would rather not run with people like you.
I won't be lectured to from someone who refuses to even view the problem from other perspectives.
The fact that you are too blind to even consider that other suggestions than your "please nerf everything" are better doesn't mean that others didn't consider things from other perspective. Again, I understand that your personal hatred, prejudice and stereotyping prevents you from actually taking a moment and read.
It is you who do not look at gearing people, you create a gap they will have a hard time to close in terms of their capability and available content. Just because you do a solo RQ, it doesn't make you see the bigger picture, unfortunately.
Why don't you solo queue for FBI and post a video about it? I don't think you would make it 30 minutes before ragequitting in frustration. Better yet, do it on an undergeared alt and see how it goes. I did it. Why don't you?
30min ragequit? I've spent something like 6 hours in tomb when it came out with a group of new players. I've spent a whole night in Grey wolf den when mod6 come out (and we still failed). I've spent countless hours wiping in random /legit groups. But the difference between me and you, is that I try again and again, until I get better, and I do get better. You go to the forums and ask to make it easier.
Maybe indeed if you got a bit spanked in etos when you were younger OP, you would have asked for help earlier and wouldn't died 10 times from bad positioning in FBI hill climb.
So is that a "yes" on wanting to buff EToS/EGWD/ECC to make them harder?
Should there be ANY dungeons that can be just places to farm? Because you know, character progression in this game is based largely around repetitive farming. Those refinement points and rough AD aren't going to farm themselves you know.
1. It was based on repetitive farming, RQ killed this, now you are limited to one time per queue. 2. Read again, proper linear difficulty doesn't mean longer dungeon, it means more prepared people for the content they queue, it means faster dungeon. If you didn't die there 10 times, the run would have been shorter. 3. Ask for better rewards if indeed the average time to completion will rise.
Hmm FBI probably has better AD/time ratio than tomb.
The teams who spend 70 minutes in FBI probably would not agree. And this is part of the problem. You just refuse to see what things are like for the solo queuers out there. Mod 6 may have been the last time you solo queued for anything.
Please do tell, what private elite club it is? I wanted to make hats and shirts, maybe pins too, but not sure to whom to deliver those. I don't have an issue running with low geared people, or people who have no clue what they are doing. I know many good people who can't distinguish one end of a dungeon from another.
Everything I have seen from you, demonstrates that you hold solo queuers in contempt, that they shouldn't even bother playing an MMO if they won't form premades. But hey, prove me wrong. Post your video solo queueing for FBI. Even if it's on your main and not your alt. Go ahead and let's see how it goes. I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main. Because I have solo queued for FBI many times, on my 17k DC and 16k GWF as well, and the ones that were successful, they have all taken about an hour to do. But hey, YOU are so experienced I am sure you can school us all about how we are all doing it wrong. And then get back to us about which dungeon has the best AD/time ratio.
And I'm just going to ignore the rest of your petty insults. But you still don't answer the question. At what point should a dungeon be just a farming dungeon, and not require advanced tactics with carefully formed premades, to be able to be finished in a somewhat reasonable amount of time?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Hmm FBI probably has better AD/time ratio than tomb.
The teams who spend 70 minutes in FBI probably would not agree. And this is part of the problem. You just refuse to see what things are like for the solo queuers out there. Mod 6 may have been the last time you solo queued for anything.
Please do tell, what private elite club it is? I wanted to make hats and shirts, maybe pins too, but not sure to whom to deliver those. I don't have an issue running with low geared people, or people who have no clue what they are doing. I know many good people who can't distinguish one end of a dungeon from another.
Everything I have seen from you, demonstrates that you hold solo queuers in contempt, that they shouldn't even bother playing an MMO if they won't form premades. But hey, prove me wrong. Post your video solo queueing for FBI. Even if it's on your main and not your alt. Go ahead and let's see how it goes. I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main. Because I have solo queued for FBI many times, on my 17k DC and 16k GWF as well, and the ones that were successful, they have all taken about an hour to do. But hey, YOU are so experienced I am sure you can school us all about how we are all doing it wrong. And then get back to us about which dungeon has the best AD/time ratio.
And I'm just going to ignore the rest of your petty insults. But you still don't answer the question. At what point should a dungeon be just a farming dungeon, and not require advanced tactics with carefully formed premades, to be able to be finished in a somewhat reasonable amount of time?
MY petty insults? Do you read what you write?
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me about my exclusive club...
i'll just leave this here. I'm sorry but if the devs didnt give a fk for me, so they will for you Sad to see they don't care about us, new mod in 2 month, nothing will change, more players will leave, and so on.
To complet FBI RIGHT NOW it's not on random queue or public queue, FBI is doable ONLY in private queue with 15k ilvl+ players.
Anyone saying it's doable in random / public queue is lying, show me the video of u doing it in public / random queue or get lost, the devs couldn't do it, so how you players could?
Also if you are 15k+ get lost, this challenge apply only to the players below as THE GAME SAYS FBI IS 11K+
I WANT TO SEE THAT 13K GWF QUEUE IN PUBLIC / RANDOM QUEUE AND FINISH FBI!
I've yet to finish FBI in RaQ with full groups of 15-17k+ players, I myself sit at 16k.
Its a game, I dont want to hear "gitgud", and I dont mind fairly challenging encouters but I dont get online, let alone pay real money for subscriptions to be miserable.
MSP and FBI are 100% flat out broken, theres a reason that 9 in 10 times you get it half the group has abandoned before you can even finish loading in.
One of the main reason's they take so long, is players that have put the time in, don't see the gratification of getting more rough AD or other HAMSTER. I'd rather make a public group that's well rounded in PE, than subject myself to the random, where every other time someone stands by the fire and ruins the run. The randoms also shove peoples alt's into them, because one of their characters has unlocked it, and you get people trying harder dungeons they aren't prepared for. 5 people around 14k, ON THIER MAIN, can easily beat FBI in under 40 min. You can have 2 16k people, and 3 12k idiots kill the run.
Well, well i did now on the weekend smth that i rarely do, i did an Fbi run with randoms.
I have to admit that i prefer to run with guildmates, bc this is the reason i am in an guild, my Tr is near Bis, i am using the Peanut Stabber Guide, bc the run showed me, taht Fbi is maybe an breaking point, that everybody should start to look around for an viable build.
How the run was: Op, DoDc, Gwf, Tr, Tr The Gwf and the Dc wasn't clearly not the first time in, Op i am not that sure, but the second Tr...i would say he never managed the hill climb and was using (for me) wrong encounters like PotB... The hill climb wasn't a problem, if someone died, we were waiting until everyone was back until we engaged the next addgroup. Hatti was no problem, the Turtle killed the second Tr. In the last room the Tr attacked the adds, not noticing that the Gwf and me were standing at the door....and doing nothing more than waiting that everyone is here.. Hatti was....nice, i think i made the mistake to destroy the ice to fast, bc i want to power me up on it, so after the first call of winter only three were left, Dc, Gwf and me, i think i have wasted smth like 10 or 12 scrolls, smth i wouldn't have done in an guildrun, but at the end we did it.
So should Fbi get nerved?
No, defintily not
When Fbi went live, we all had not the gear we have now, we were running with Drow, or even Elven Assault stuff, twisted weapons, and maybe some sort of Masterwork things. Sure maybe higher weapon enchants, than most randoms like Bob and Shelley have nowadays, but thats it.
So take Fbi as it is now (for me), an dungeon where you have to rethink about your build, you need more teamplay, you should sometimes look around what your teammates are doing, or if someone is trapped in ice, things like that.
To complet FBI RIGHT NOW it's not on random queue or public queue, FBI is doable ONLY in private queue with 15k ilvl+ players.
Also if you are 15k+ get lost, this challenge apply only to the players below as THE GAME SAYS FBI IS 11K+
I WANT TO SEE THAT 13K GWF QUEUE IN PUBLIC / RANDOM QUEUE AND FINISH FBI!
I've finished random FBI with 11k+ HR and 11k+ GWF (I don't remember numbers but around lowest IL possible in first random queue version). It took about 45 minutes so lot longer than my runs on main.. but still it was lot easier than mods ago because of all power creep. Fresh 70 lvl have access to very good gear. Neverwinter is very easy game and let's not dumb it down more. If you don't want challenge you have plenty of leveling dungeons where you can run and have time of your life. If you want challenge and learn to grow your char FBI hill is first step (albeit small). It would be cruel for most player to remove it. And if you don't want challenge and want to run FBI then you can private queue for it with selected group.
From rewards ratio - rewards suck but if I were for pure profits I think I would prefer to run multiple FBI than CR.
BTW for all calling @micky1p00 elitist..it couldn't be further from truth. She ran with my low IL toon in end game dungeons when I didn't know how to utilize my class properly. And I wasn't even in her guild - she just don't need group full of 17k to run dungeon. If you actually reach to her you will understand it too.
Why should this portion of the dungeon be this difficult, at this point in the evolution of the game, when the dungeon does not even drop endgame gear and is not necessary for character progression at all?
Because it's the first step into T3 dungeons. FBI is hardly a T2.5 now with all the powercreep, but the first to introduce T3 mechanics and difficulty (read as you need to think about your moves).
If you nerf FBI because it's too hard for you, then you'll want to nerf MSP, that's even harder with more complex mechanics. Then you'll want to nerf TONG, because you can't pass the dps-check Orcus and Ras Nsi souls. Then you'll want to nerf CODG because you don't master the move of the pull/push (outside of the claw bug). Etc.
CN is a joke now that Orcus' punchs do nothing and with all the powercreep, so the first resistance a random group encounter in dungeons is FBI.
My question is more: why should a group that doesn't know how to run this dungeon, or simply isn't ready for it (gear-wise) should complete it? I myself really have hard time with Stradh on CR, and didn't run it a lot. Do I call for nerf, because I can't beat it with a random queue? Hell no, because if the team isn't ready to beat it, then it shouldn't.
You're asking for even more facility, in a now semi-old dungeon that's already crippled by powercreep. As I said, FBI is the first step into the endgame, not because of its difficulty anymore, but by the introduction of mechanics that you don't find in T2.
Leave it as it is, and be careful what you wish for, especially in nerfs.
To the OP, I'm still waiting for a response to my contribution to the topic.
The only thing I see on this thread from you is a call for a nerf (I thought call for nerfs were not allowed, maybe it's only for classes). And, reading all your arguments here, why do you want to nerf FBI? Because you can't finish it, in RAQ. => So what? You're not the only player here, and lots of people do manage to complete this dungeon in RAQ, talking about non-premade. As a matter of fact, when I queue for a RAQ, I hope to get FBI, because it's the only content that offers a bit of challenge and that I can carry even as a DPS. (I can't carry MSP because of the mechanics).
Now you're talking a lot about effort/rewards. You do know that FBI offers orange rings that are still completely viable, even if outdated? You also know that FBI loot is mostly unbound, contrary to edemo/CN.
FBI is the first T3 (T2.5 now), it is a necessary step for every character to go through and understand how to play the class and as a team. Everyone and their mother can complete a CN with a lower-end build and being selfish, but you can't do that on FBI. Why is that a bad thing? Why would you nerf a dungeon encouraging teamplay and class-knowledge, just because you can't succeed to complete it?
And as I wrote previously, if you go on this way, this thread is only the first of a long serie: Say you manage to get FBI nerfed (hope not), you'll want to nerf MSP. Why don't you talk about MSP? MSP is way harder than FBI, mechanics are way more complex, and loot is the same, except for the Key of Stars (which droprate doesn't make a real difference in loot table). Then you'll open another thread because you can't succeed in TONG, let's say you can't pass the dps-check. Next will be for Cradle, and CR, and so on.
Let's be clear: You can't complete it with a team that's not ready for it, so you call for nerfs. The problem is that people are not willing to learn. They could try, and try again, dying in order to understand how it works, how should their rotations and placements be, how to prioritize the bears, etc. But no, people prefer leave, ragequit, sit on campfire or calling for nerfs. That's why this thread is only the first, because people do not WANT to learn.
As micky said, take the same team you were in, with random people, that maybe don't know the dungeon. YOU know the dungeon, so guide them, carry them. Talk, explain, try, retry and you'll pass.
A team that's not ready for it shouldn't complete it, like it's possible for T2 now with all the powercreep. You know the teamplay that players ask for in dungeons? You have it, and hill in FBI is the first concrete example of it.
And before you tell me that I don't see the problem from the other point of view, trust me I do. I spent lots of time going through the dungeon with people explaining me the mechanics, not only FBI but MSP, TONG, etc to CR. Now it's my turn to help people, and I do every time I can, even in RAQ. But when the team just can't pass it, because they don't get how it works, well it shouldn't complete it.
The fact is, FBI offers a bit of challenge, and you want to remove it. There is no real argument in favor of that: - The loot? The loot is fine for the dungeon, unbound stuff, rubies for T3, orange rings... Loot is correct. - The fact that it's old? The powercreep already makes the dungeon way easier than it was, it's enough. - The difficulty? It's a gap, a step into endgame. It's a way to learn to play better, not only your class but in synergy with others.
1. This entire discussion has never been about whether I personally can finish FBI. I can. On three characters now. Even in the video that I posted, the team finished FBI in about 70 minutes. So no, this is not about me crying for nerfs because it's too hard for me. This is about a larger issue of the accessibility of FBI to players as a whole.
2. I see nothing wrong with evaluating dungeons as time goes on to see if they still serve the needs *of the population of players currently running them*. When FBI first came out, it was an endgame dungeon and it had endgame players getting endgame loot. OF COURSE endgame dungeons should be difficult and challenging, and not accessible to the underprepared player. And that is totally fine. But NOW, FBI is not an endgame dungeon. The population of players now running FBI is much different than what it was two years ago. The endgame players have moved on to TONG, CR, etc. Consequently, the population of players for whom FBI is of interest, has changed. So even though the very purpose of the dungeon has changed as the game has evolved, the dungeon should not be re-evaluated ever?
3. And just to repeat, the rewards from FBI are scarcely better than CN. If a random team that can complete CN in, say, 30 minutes, will struggle for over 1 hour or more to do FBI, then what is the point? The rewards should be commensurate with the effort put into it.
4. There is a subtext running through this whole discussion that hard dungeons like FBI are needed, even if they don't give very good rewards, in order to "teach players how to properly play their characters". With all due respect, why should this be the job of any dungeon? There is no "one correct way" to play any character. As an example, I'm willing to bet that the devs did not intend support characters like DC's stacking defense and deflect and life steal in order to take advantage of multiple Assassin's Covenant insignia bonuses. And yet that is now a *recommended* way to play a support DC.
5. In my view elitism is more about just whether a person is willing to be helpful or not. Elitism is a state of mind. It is the opposite of humility. If your idea of helping another person is to walk with that player along the way with grace and understanding, then that is being a humble helper. However, if your idea of helping another person is to lecture and talk down to that person, then while your advice may be helpful and correct, it isn't very humble.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Everything I have seen from you, demonstrates that you hold solo queuers in contempt, that they shouldn't even bother playing an MMO if they won't form premades.
I do not hold solo queuers in contempt, I do not generalize the queuers, I hold in contempt some people whom I most likely to meet in solo q, people who kick others for being a bit slow, people who kick new players instead of explaining, people who use powers like RA even though asked repeatedly not to, people who will start a mouth diarrhea if you suggest them to use something when the party is stuck. For example, once in one grouping (not one of the zerg channels) channel a newer player asked about cradle, then a player who is more geared than most (including Me) with 17k DC and GWF, instead of helping them, by pointing to how to do cradle, making a group and taking them, told them that they will never do one, it is too difficult, shutting them down even before they ever tried.
After I pointed out that now after the push pull change it is even easier, and possible to walk it left then right without dodges, said geared person used every elitist jerk condemnation, because they are petty and angry about possible success of others, when they just quit instead of trying. But worse, trying to take others into their mentality.
I can understand people who want to help random people, like they were helped, giving on forward, especially when they come from large guilds and no one need the help there, but I do not understand people who rather soloQ to just feel good about themselves, how great they are, helping the poor, instead taking a guildie who can use the run, help, and gear when they are from smaller guild.
Yes, those people I'll rather not meet, so why would I soloQ and have the chance to meet all those lowlifes if I have other options? And I don't have other options, I'll rather use the time to create those or just do something else. Games meant as passtime not suffering, and while I'm ready to be stuck for hours and hours with new players every time, I'm not willing to handle in-game people of 'great stature'.. whos only purpose in life is to make others expiriance bad.
But hey, prove me wrong. Post your video solo queueing for FBI. Even if it's on your main and not your alt. Go ahead and let's see how it goes. I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main. Because I have solo queued for FBI many times, on my 17k DC and 16k GWF as well, and the ones that were successful, they have all taken about an hour to do.
We are children on a dare... but sure... Because no matter how it goes, you will find an issue with it, I'll finish it fast, them I'm disconnected elitist, I'll finish it slow, I've failed, or something, lets indeed make it worthwhile, lets bet, if I do video and post, you send me a Legendary or Legacy Snail, goes? Or how about I solo the hill climb?
But hey, YOU are so experienced I am sure you can school us all about how we are all doing it wrong.
Here again the petty hate.. you are the one that look down on others, "I soloQ so I'm better human than everyone". The reason people stay away from soloQ, go give an advice to someone like that... You can't, because they are holier than the pope. Oh and if you prove them wrong once, when they ask to buff AoC...as a bug, holy HAMSTER.. The lasting hatred of ages..
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
2. I see nothing wrong with evaluating dungeons as time goes on to see if they still serve the needs *of the population of players currently running them*. When FBI first came out, it was an endgame dungeon and it had endgame players getting endgame loot. OF COURSE endgame dungeons should be difficult and challenging, and not accessible to the underprepared player. And that is totally fine. But NOW, FBI is not an endgame dungeon. The population of players now running FBI is much different than what it was two years ago. The endgame players have moved on to TONG, CR, etc. Consequently, the population of players for whom FBI is of interest, has changed. So even though the very purpose of the dungeon has changed as the game has evolved, the dungeon should not be re-evaluated ever?
Repeating the same question when it was repeatedly answered does not help. If "OF COURSE endgame dungeons should be difficult and challenging, and not accessible to the underprepared player." How a player should be suddenly prepared to end-game?
3. And just to repeat, the rewards from FBI are scarcely better than CN. If a random team that can complete CN in, say, 30 minutes, will struggle for over 1 hour or more to do FBI, then what is the point? The rewards should be commensurate with the effort put into it.
The reward is significantly better (even if not to count the RQ AD), in FBI the second chest is free, and you get more or less twice the salvage + good likelihood of unbound stuff that still sells + manticore manes etc.. While in CN you get less salvage and the chest doesn't pay for the key.
4. There is a subtext running through this whole discussion that hard dungeons like FBI are needed, even if they don't give very good rewards, in order to "teach players how to properly play their characters". With all due respect, why should this be the job of any dungeon?
Then what reason players have to even look at a build, if they are guaranteed to complete all content with any random build?
There is no "one correct way" to play any character. As an example, I'm willing to bet that the devs did not intend support characters like DC's stacking defense and deflect and life steal in order to take advantage of multiple Assassin's Covenant insignia bonuses. And yet that is now a *recommended* way to play a support DC.
There is no 'correct', one can decide that all their chars will walk backwards and have green hats, this will be the correct way for them. But there is an optimal way, for specific context, that will minimize the run times, maximize damage, etc...
5. In my view elitism is more about just whether a person is willing to be helpful or not. Elitism is a state of mind. It is the opposite of humility. If your idea of helping another person is to walk with that player along the way with grace and understanding, then that is being a humble helper. However, if your idea of helping another person is to lecture and talk down to that person, then while your advice may be helpful and correct, it isn't very humble.
100% agree, now go look at your old posts, here and the other blog, long ago, how you posted about Sharp, and other geared players. Just for being geared, and posting guides. After how some people treat others, they do not deserve any basic courtesy.
My favorite part is that the skills / build / strategy for a solo climb is generally speaking different than for a team climb.
Sure it's a badge of honor, maybe showing off that you know the ins and outs of a class. But from a pragmatic perspective, a video of a successful solo climb proves you can solo climb. It doesn't prove you know how to tank on a team. If you need more examples of videos of folks successfully tanking or whatever, ask for that rather than a video that would take a fair amount of effort but would likely yield very little insight.
On topic: My opinion is that I wouldn't want devs spending resources retooling old dugneons to make them more accessible for casual players. It's no secret that dev and designer time is limited, so I much prefer that they prioritize new content and fixing game-breaking issues (of which current content difficulty is not one).
So you demand to be bribed an absurd amount in order to solo queue into FBI. Huh. Which rather speaks to my main point - that the experience is pretty bad for the solo queuers crowd. And you still refuse to even see what the real problem is from their point of view. Step down from your ivory tower and hobnob with the hoi polloi for a change. Post your video.
So you demand to be bribed an absurd amount in order to solo queue into FBI. Huh. Which rather speaks to my main point - that the experience is pretty bad for the solo queuers crowd. And you still refuse to even see what the real problem is from their point of view. Step down from your ivory tower and hobnob with the hoi polloi for a change. Post your video.
No no, you asked to bet, then it's a bet. But check the time of the portableo event, it's 16d 19h left right now, i'm at the turtle, so lets see that snail
May I remind you that you (@chemjeff) think there is a problem on this dungeon, it's certainly not the case for everyone. The "problem" you are speaking about is a increase of difficulty in a dungeon that's higher tiers than the previous one. The "problem" is that contrary to CN and lower instances, this dungeon actually need people to be aware of their environment. The "problem" is the dungeon *maybe* needs a bit of coordination, explanations between each others, and teamplay if you don't have a team that can take the last 3 plateaux all together.
The "problem" you're speaking about is what players asks, everytime, in a dungeon: teamplay needed, awareness needed.
I don't see any problem here, just a dungeon more difficult than the one in a lower tiers, that need people to actually learn something, and not going through the content like etos.
May I remind you that you (@chemjeff) think there is a problem on this dungeon, it's certainly not the case for everyone. The "problem" you are speaking about is a increase of difficulty in a dungeon that's higher tiers than the previous one. The "problem" is that contrary to CN and lower instances, this dungeon actually need people to be aware of their environment. The "problem" is the dungeon *maybe* needs a bit of coordination, explanations between each others, and teamplay if you don't have a team that can take the last 3 plateaux all together.
The "problem" you're speaking about is what players asks, everytime, in a dungeon: teamplay needed, awareness needed.
I don't see any problem here, just a dungeon more difficult than the one in a lower tiers, that need people to actually learn something, and not going through the content like etos.
With all due respect, your response really sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. Go ahead and solo queue for FBI and report back on how it went.
Comments
That crippling phobia to listening to us, ivory tower elitists.... can't be that perhaps people who wasted thousands hours, and come from different backgrounds, perhaps have actual insight how to do thing better, or perhaps how the game can be improved to the benefit of everyone.
Nothing like some hyperboles and dismissvness to make your point. A true paragon of charm and great attitude.
Maybe indeed if you got a bit spanked in etos when you were younger OP, you would have asked for help earlier and wouldn't died 10 times from bad positioning in FBI hill climb.
Why people should have 20min FBIs without knowing what they are doing, and then permanently stuck at tomb? This for sure will help their progress.
I know it is a surprise to you, but most players actually move on from FBI and try to reach end-game.. Lets not make it /lfg 20k IL Tomb, because the average player comes from FBI without any glimpse of understanding how to play, and the average group for Tomb will try to compensate for it with enough IL to start a world war.
You want dungeons that are just as difficult as endgame dungeons, from the point of view of solo queuers, but offer almost none of the rewards. For what purpose? To "toughen them up"? Oh this is rich coming from you, you who can't be bothered to get her hands dirty hobnobbing with the riffraff outside of her little private elite club.
I won't be lectured to from someone who refuses to even view the problem from other perspectives. Why don't you solo queue for FBI and post a video about it? I don't think you would make it 30 minutes before ragequitting in frustration. Better yet, do it on an undergeared alt and see how it goes. I did it. Why don't you? So is that a "yes" on wanting to buff EToS/EGWD/ECC to make them harder?
Should there be ANY dungeons that can be just places to farm? Because you know, character progression in this game is based largely around repetitive farming. Those refinement points and rough AD aren't going to farm themselves you know.
NO ONE HERE is suggesting "20 min FBI" for a random team, not even me. That is just a strawman. Neither I nor anyone else has argued in favor of fundamentally changing boss mechanics, changing mob mechanics, none of that. My point in starting this discussion, is to point out that at this point in the evolution of the game, when a dungeon like FBI does not offer any endgame rewards, they are scarcely better than CN's rewards at this point, it's time to flatten out the dungeon progression curve *a little bit*. There is no reason for that dungeon to be that hard for the rewards that it gives. If a team has to struggle that much just to get through it, then the dungeon should offer corresponding rewards. At least with TONG, players get IL 480 gear and a chance at a UE. So I am fine with random teams having a tough time with that dungeon. FBI? Not so much.
Oh and by the way. I have completed all of the content in this game. I have a 17k DC and a 16k GWF. I have done 30-40 min FBI's with them in premade groups. And yes, in those parties, with that level of gear, FBI is easy. So I have seen both sides of this coin. I will also say, that when I solo queue for FBI even on my DC or my GWF, it almost never takes less than 1 hour.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Or better, for CR? I understand that all this blind hatred makes it hard to read, but where I've said to make dungeons as difficult as end-game dungeons? Please do tell, what private elite club it is? I wanted to make hats and shirts, maybe pins too, but not sure to whom to deliver those.
I don't have an issue running with low geared people, or people who have no clue what they are doing. I know many good people who can't distinguish one end of a dungeon from another. My criteria for people who I ran with is their attitude and not their game skills. This is why I would rather not run with people like you. The fact that you are too blind to even consider that other suggestions than your "please nerf everything" are better doesn't mean that others didn't consider things from other perspective. Again, I understand that your personal hatred, prejudice and stereotyping prevents you from actually taking a moment and read.
It is you who do not look at gearing people, you create a gap they will have a hard time to close in terms of their capability and available content. Just because you do a solo RQ, it doesn't make you see the bigger picture, unfortunately. 30min ragequit? I've spent something like 6 hours in tomb when it came out with a group of new players. I've spent a whole
night in Grey wolf den when mod6 come out (and we still failed). I've spent countless hours wiping in random /legit groups. But
the difference between me and you, is that I try again and again, until I get better, and I do get better. You go to the forums and ask to make it easier. 1. It was based on repetitive farming, RQ killed this, now you are limited to one time per queue.
2. Read again, proper linear difficulty doesn't mean longer dungeon, it means more prepared people for the content they queue, it means faster dungeon. If you didn't die there 10 times, the run would have been shorter.
3. Ask for better rewards if indeed the average time to completion will rise.
And I'm just going to ignore the rest of your petty insults. But you still don't answer the question. At what point should a dungeon be just a farming dungeon, and not require advanced tactics with carefully formed premades, to be able to be finished in a somewhat reasonable amount of time?
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me about my exclusive club...
i'll just leave this here.
I'm sorry but if the devs didnt give a fk for me, so they will for you
To complet FBI RIGHT NOW it's not on random queue or public queue, FBI is doable ONLY in private queue with 15k ilvl+ players.
Anyone saying it's doable in random / public queue is lying, show me the video of u doing it in public / random queue or get lost, the devs couldn't do it, so how you players could?
Also if you are 15k+ get lost, this challenge apply only to the players below as THE GAME SAYS FBI IS 11K+
I WANT TO SEE THAT 13K GWF QUEUE IN PUBLIC / RANDOM QUEUE AND FINISH FBI!
This game is so anti-new-players.
Its a game, I dont want to hear "gitgud", and I dont mind fairly challenging encouters but I dont get online, let alone pay real money for subscriptions to be miserable.
MSP and FBI are 100% flat out broken, theres a reason that 9 in 10 times you get it half the group has abandoned before you can even finish loading in.
I have to admit that i prefer to run with guildmates, bc this is the reason i am in an guild, my Tr is near Bis, i am using the Peanut Stabber Guide, bc the run showed me, taht Fbi is maybe an breaking point, that everybody should start to look around for an viable build.
How the run was:
Op, DoDc, Gwf, Tr, Tr
The Gwf and the Dc wasn't clearly not the first time in, Op i am not that sure, but the second Tr...i would say he never managed the hill climb and was using (for me) wrong encounters like PotB...
The hill climb wasn't a problem, if someone died, we were waiting until everyone was back until we engaged the next addgroup.
Hatti was no problem, the Turtle killed the second Tr.
In the last room the Tr attacked the adds, not noticing that the Gwf and me were standing at the door....and doing nothing more than waiting that everyone is here..
Hatti was....nice, i think i made the mistake to destroy the ice to fast, bc i want to power me up on it, so after the first call of winter only three were left, Dc, Gwf and me, i think i have wasted smth like 10 or 12 scrolls, smth i wouldn't have done in an guildrun, but at the end we did it.
So should Fbi get nerved?
No, defintily not
When Fbi went live, we all had not the gear we have now, we were running with Drow, or even Elven Assault stuff, twisted weapons, and maybe some sort of Masterwork things.
Sure maybe higher weapon enchants, than most randoms like Bob and Shelley have nowadays, but thats it.
So take Fbi as it is now (for me), an dungeon where you have to rethink about your build, you need more teamplay, you should sometimes look around what your teammates are doing, or if someone is trapped in ice, things like that.
From rewards ratio - rewards suck but if I were for pure profits I think I would prefer to run multiple FBI than CR.
BTW for all calling @micky1p00 elitist..it couldn't be further from truth. She ran with my low IL toon in end game dungeons when I didn't know how to utilize my class properly. And I wasn't even in her guild - she just don't need group full of 17k to run dungeon. If you actually reach to her you will understand it too.
The only thing I see on this thread from you is a call for a nerf (I thought call for nerfs were not allowed, maybe it's only for classes). And, reading all your arguments here, why do you want to nerf FBI? Because you can't finish it, in RAQ.
=> So what? You're not the only player here, and lots of people do manage to complete this dungeon in RAQ, talking about non-premade. As a matter of fact, when I queue for a RAQ, I hope to get FBI, because it's the only content that offers a bit of challenge and that I can carry even as a DPS. (I can't carry MSP because of the mechanics).
Now you're talking a lot about effort/rewards. You do know that FBI offers orange rings that are still completely viable, even if outdated? You also know that FBI loot is mostly unbound, contrary to edemo/CN.
FBI is the first T3 (T2.5 now), it is a necessary step for every character to go through and understand how to play the class and as a team. Everyone and their mother can complete a CN with a lower-end build and being selfish, but you can't do that on FBI. Why is that a bad thing? Why would you nerf a dungeon encouraging teamplay and class-knowledge, just because you can't succeed to complete it?
And as I wrote previously, if you go on this way, this thread is only the first of a long serie: Say you manage to get FBI nerfed (hope not), you'll want to nerf MSP. Why don't you talk about MSP? MSP is way harder than FBI, mechanics are way more complex, and loot is the same, except for the Key of Stars (which droprate doesn't make a real difference in loot table).
Then you'll open another thread because you can't succeed in TONG, let's say you can't pass the dps-check. Next will be for Cradle, and CR, and so on.
Let's be clear: You can't complete it with a team that's not ready for it, so you call for nerfs. The problem is that people are not willing to learn. They could try, and try again, dying in order to understand how it works, how should their rotations and placements be, how to prioritize the bears, etc. But no, people prefer leave, ragequit, sit on campfire or calling for nerfs. That's why this thread is only the first, because people do not WANT to learn.
As micky said, take the same team you were in, with random people, that maybe don't know the dungeon. YOU know the dungeon, so guide them, carry them. Talk, explain, try, retry and you'll pass.
A team that's not ready for it shouldn't complete it, like it's possible for T2 now with all the powercreep. You know the teamplay that players ask for in dungeons? You have it, and hill in FBI is the first concrete example of it.
And before you tell me that I don't see the problem from the other point of view, trust me I do. I spent lots of time going through the dungeon with people explaining me the mechanics, not only FBI but MSP, TONG, etc to CR. Now it's my turn to help people, and I do every time I can, even in RAQ. But when the team just can't pass it, because they don't get how it works, well it shouldn't complete it.
The fact is, FBI offers a bit of challenge, and you want to remove it. There is no real argument in favor of that:
- The loot? The loot is fine for the dungeon, unbound stuff, rubies for T3, orange rings... Loot is correct.
- The fact that it's old? The powercreep already makes the dungeon way easier than it was, it's enough.
- The difficulty? It's a gap, a step into endgame. It's a way to learn to play better, not only your class but in synergy with others.
2. I see nothing wrong with evaluating dungeons as time goes on to see if they still serve the needs *of the population of players currently running them*. When FBI first came out, it was an endgame dungeon and it had endgame players getting endgame loot. OF COURSE endgame dungeons should be difficult and challenging, and not accessible to the underprepared player. And that is totally fine. But NOW, FBI is not an endgame dungeon. The population of players now running FBI is much different than what it was two years ago. The endgame players have moved on to TONG, CR, etc. Consequently, the population of players for whom FBI is of interest, has changed. So even though the very purpose of the dungeon has changed as the game has evolved, the dungeon should not be re-evaluated ever?
3. And just to repeat, the rewards from FBI are scarcely better than CN. If a random team that can complete CN in, say, 30 minutes, will struggle for over 1 hour or more to do FBI, then what is the point? The rewards should be commensurate with the effort put into it.
4. There is a subtext running through this whole discussion that hard dungeons like FBI are needed, even if they don't give very good rewards, in order to "teach players how to properly play their characters". With all due respect, why should this be the job of any dungeon? There is no "one correct way" to play any character. As an example, I'm willing to bet that the devs did not intend support characters like DC's stacking defense and deflect and life steal in order to take advantage of multiple Assassin's Covenant insignia bonuses. And yet that is now a *recommended* way to play a support DC.
5. In my view elitism is more about just whether a person is willing to be helpful or not. Elitism is a state of mind. It is the opposite of humility. If your idea of helping another person is to walk with that player along the way with grace and understanding, then that is being a humble helper. However, if your idea of helping another person is to lecture and talk down to that person, then while your advice may be helpful and correct, it isn't very humble.
For example, once in one grouping (not one of the zerg channels) channel a newer player asked about cradle, then a player who is more geared than most (including Me) with 17k DC and GWF, instead of helping them, by pointing to how to do cradle, making a group and taking them, told them that they will never do one, it is too difficult, shutting them down even before they ever tried.
After I pointed out that now after the push pull change it is even easier, and possible to walk it left then right without dodges, said geared person used every elitist jerk condemnation, because they are petty and angry about possible success of others, when they just quit instead of trying. But worse, trying to take others into their mentality.
I can understand people who want to help random people, like they were helped, giving on forward, especially when they come from large guilds and no one need the help there, but I do not understand people who rather soloQ to just feel good about themselves, how great they are, helping the poor, instead taking a guildie who can use the run, help, and gear when they are from smaller guild.
Yes, those people I'll rather not meet, so why would I soloQ and have the chance to meet all those lowlifes if I have other options? And I don't have other options, I'll rather use the time to create those or just do something else. Games meant as passtime not suffering, and while I'm ready to be stuck for hours and hours with new players every time, I'm not willing to handle in-game people of 'great stature'.. whos only purpose in life is to make others expiriance bad. We are children on a dare... but sure...
Because no matter how it goes, you will find an issue with it, I'll finish it fast, them I'm disconnected elitist, I'll finish it slow, I've failed, or something, lets indeed make it worthwhile, lets bet, if I do video and post, you send me a Legendary or Legacy Snail, goes?
Or how about I solo the hill climb? Here again the petty hate.. you are the one that look down on others, "I soloQ so I'm better human than everyone". The reason people stay away from soloQ, go give an advice to someone like that... You can't, because they are holier than the pope.
Oh and if you prove them wrong once, when they ask to buff AoC...as a bug, holy HAMSTER.. The lasting hatred of ages..
If
"OF COURSE endgame dungeons should be difficult and challenging, and not accessible to the underprepared player."
How a player should be suddenly prepared to end-game? The reward is significantly better (even if not to count the RQ AD), in FBI the second chest is free, and you get more or less twice the salvage + good likelihood of unbound stuff that still sells + manticore manes etc.. While in CN you get less salvage and the chest doesn't pay for the key. Then what reason players have to even look at a build, if they are guaranteed to complete all content with any random build? There is no 'correct', one can decide that all their chars will walk backwards and have green hats, this will be the correct way for them. But there is an optimal way, for specific context, that will minimize the run times, maximize damage, etc...
100% agree, now go look at your old posts, here and the other blog, long ago, how you posted about Sharp, and other geared players. Just for being geared, and posting guides.
After how some people treat others, they do not deserve any basic courtesy.
Sure it's a badge of honor, maybe showing off that you know the ins and outs of a class. But from a pragmatic perspective, a video of a successful solo climb proves you can solo climb. It doesn't prove you know how to tank on a team. If you need more examples of videos of folks successfully tanking or whatever, ask for that rather than a video that would take a fair amount of effort but would likely yield very little insight.
On topic: My opinion is that I wouldn't want devs spending resources retooling old dugneons to make them more accessible for casual players. It's no secret that dev and designer time is limited, so I much prefer that they prioritize new content and fixing game-breaking issues (of which current content difficulty is not one).
don't take it too serious.
edit - turtle done
edit2 and done
The "problem" you are speaking about is a increase of difficulty in a dungeon that's higher tiers than the previous one.
The "problem" is that contrary to CN and lower instances, this dungeon actually need people to be aware of their environment.
The "problem" is the dungeon *maybe* needs a bit of coordination, explanations between each others, and teamplay if you don't have a team that can take the last 3 plateaux all together.
The "problem" you're speaking about is what players asks, everytime, in a dungeon: teamplay needed, awareness needed.
I don't see any problem here, just a dungeon more difficult than the one in a lower tiers, that need people to actually learn something, and not going through the content like etos.