A simple question manages to strike so much fear in the few that it has devolved to irrelevant comparisons, nonsensical reasoning, avoidance and even contradiction in areas to name but a few things.
Approaching a simple question like this by way of the aforementioned is not how you get your point(s) taken seriously. Usually I say its unfortunate forum users are not representative of the majority player base but in this case I think its a good thing.
I now have more empathy for the Devs. This thread alone has more one shots and face palm crits then the trash mobs (better known as mini bosses) in FBI.
Nerf? Why? Once upon a time I thought FBI was too tough for lower IL teams but me and some guildies ran it by stripping all our gear off except weapons and a summoned companion. It got done. May have had some hiccups here and there but FBI is completely doable with lower level toons.
If people could finish it before, people can finish it now. Devs don't need to waste there time nerfing old content when the focus should be new content.
Maybe you guys just want a "teleport to end chest" scroll to spare yourselves the challenge.
after reading this I did a random queue up of it with my dc. me and the op were end game. everyone else was endgamish, like 15il ish. me and the op were able to stay alive when everyone else died a couple times but it was doable in a 60 minute run. considering that everyone died (as in ded.. at campfire) on bosses a couple times other than the two 17k plus support classes and it was a 60 minute run and the other three were in the same guild so not completely random.. well it's doable.. but I can still see runs failing pretty spectacularly. I'm not doing it again to test it with odds of a less competent grouping LOL. hill climb wasn't a problem. but ppl died on bosses like flies.
I've been coming across many 15Ks in FBI and ToNG that were very underperforming. Like 15K HRs and GWFs being out-dpsed by 13/14K TRs. And some of these 15Ks don't have even one mythic artifacts. Mostly orange artifacts, and even a few purples. Apparently there are ways to achieve 15Ks fairly easy. Item level is mostly meaningless to me now. If a player is not 16K or have exalted weapons, I assume they are scrubs.
First, comments like "oh me and my premade team did just fine in FBI so what's the problem" completely miss the point. OF COURSE premade teams will tend to do better than random ones. The point is, this dungeon is over two years old at this point, and is no longer an endgame dungeon, so random teams which meet the entrance requirements *ought* to stand more than a decent chance of finishing it. I shouldn't need a premade team that far exceeds the entrance requirements in order to farm a farming dungeon.
Second, the issue in my view is less about any individual player's skill, and more about how that skill is tested. Think of it this way. If you are a teacher and you give an exam to your students, and 90% of your students failed the exam, what does that mean? It could mean that 90% of your students are dummies, sure. But this is statistically unlikely. A more reasonable explanation is that the exam was not a fair assessment of the students' knowledge and abilities. If the real point of the difficult hill climb in FBI is to "toughen players up" and "get them ready for hard content", then why is this the appropriate place to do that, in a 2-year-old dungeon with no comparable rewards to offer for such an effort? Shouldn't that type of challenge be reserved more for dungeons that are closer to endgame, where the effort more closely matches the reward?
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="chemjeff">It could mean that 90% of your students are dummies, sure. But this is statistically unlikely. </blockquote> Eh, I've graded a lot of papers as a TA, I don't think 90% is lowballing the number of dummies out there. And that's in mechanical engineering, which should be a reasonably competent subset of students. I think it's safe to say that those who know how to play the game well are heavily outnumbered by those that don't.
A more reasonable explanation is that the exam was not a fair assessment of the students' knowledge and abilities. If the real point of the difficult hill climb in FBI is to "toughen players up" and "get them ready for hard content", then why is this the appropriate place to do that, in a 2-year-old dungeon with no comparable rewards to offer for such an effort? Shouldn't that type of challenge be reserved more for dungeons that are closer to endgame, where the effort more closely matches the reward?
Since Module 6, each new dungeon/instance/trial is almost always designed to curb the complacency/habits from the previous module.
@chemjeff FBI might not be the latest content, but it is end game as its a step up from the earlier dungeons. That said, FBI is a stepping stone and introduction into t3 content. U mentioned that the hill climb of FBI was to toughen them up but there's no rewards, I don't see them doing much better in mspc let alone tong.
I got solo to turtle. Of course, I reset a few times cause I literally woke up 15 mins before doing the run. Prolly coulda soloed turtle too if I had 73 hours to scratch its shoulder to death.
I don’t think soloing, despite being impressive, is a good example of why it doesn’t need a nerfing. To me, the guy a few posts above who stripped down his gear with a few guides and ran it proves the point that it’s fine. I’m not sure if I could accomplish that with people I presently know in game...but I know for sure that if I were to stumble across my old EQ crew that we could run it at the base IL without issue.
Also! I can’t begin to describe how much an /assist command would help in situations like the hill climb. The dps would be focused, the team organized, things would be fun.
Great, but irrelevant in the context of this discussion. The population of players who can do what you did is not generally the population of players who are random solo queueing into this dungeon.
There's a couple of different issues floating around this whole conversation.
1. Is there a population of players for which FBI is considered "easy"? Yes. Of course. A lot of them are on the forums. 2. Just because there are some players who regard FBI as "easy", does that make FBI overall as a dungeon an "easy dungeon"? Answer: no. It's all relative to the population of players who are being assessed by the dungeon. 3. For the population of players who tend to randomly solo queue into FBI, is the dungeon considered "easy"? I think the fair answer would be "no". 4. SHOULD this dungeon, which is two years old and offers no endgame rewards, be this difficult *for the population of players who randomly solo queue into the dungeon*? That is the real question here.
Regardless of what you think about my tanking abilities (or lack thereof), in my video, I was not the only one struggling on the hill climb portion of the fight. And the others who have commented here about their experiences random solo queueing into the dungeon have expressed similar frustration.
My opinion is that, at some point, there is no good reason to maintain this level of difficulty *for the population of players who randomly solo queue*, for a dungeon that is so old and so out of date. IF the dungeon is going to remain this difficult, then the rewards should be increased accordingly, for the effort that these teams have to expend to just get through it.
I honestly don't think it requires a huge nerf. Just maybe delete 1/3rd of the giants on the hill climb portion, perhaps reduce Drufi's hitpoints a little bit, and that would be about right.
But you, and your teams struggles speaks to a need to learn the fundamentals of team work and mechanics. Where would these fundamental mmo skills be learned without content which forces you to do so. Making it easier simply gives the green light to the pack of hyenas mentality which dominates the player base and frankly playing with people who want to be teh hero’s!!!11!! Is brutally boring
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2018
Lets remove high-school and expect people to succeed at university.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
4. SHOULD this dungeon, which is two years old and offers no endgame rewards, be this difficult *for the population of players who randomly solo queue into the dungeon*? That is the real question here.
Regardless of what you think about my tanking abilities (or lack thereof), in my video, I was not the only one struggling on the hill climb portion of the fight. And the others who have commented here about their experiences random solo queueing into the dungeon have expressed similar frustration.
My opinion is that, at some point, there is no good reason to maintain this level of difficulty *for the population of players who randomly solo queue*, for a dungeon that is so old and so out of date. IF the dungeon is going to remain this difficult, then the rewards should be increased accordingly, for the effort that these teams have to expend to just get through it.
I honestly don't think it requires a huge nerf. Just maybe delete 1/3rd of the giants on the hill climb portion, perhaps reduce Drufi's hitpoints a little bit, and that would be about right.
And how many of the total population are soloQ? lets say it's 10%, how many of those struggle? And more so how many do not understand that they can release, regroup, and fight again as it's not a boss fight that resets. And out of those how many so averse to the idea of learning and improving that they rather nerf what hundreds of other succeed at?
So for those, we will ruin even more any of the liner progress that game struggles to have and create even stronger gap between t2 and actual content like tomb.
Then next week, we will have posts: "Nerf Tomb Orcus, it one shot the tank"
People completely lost the gratification and satisfaction of overcoming a challenge ? Is it all immediate gratification now ?
Before jumping on them too hard it would be valuable to remember the games design does everything it can to encourage undisciplined play before dropping something like the hill climb on them. I’d proffer it’s quite reasonable to find something to appear impossible without having solid fundamentals to rely on and those fundamentals ...or lack there of...are a product of game design(or lack there of ^^) ...it’s kinda like teaching someone to read using twitter, then being upset their grammar sucks.
Ps using a gwf, the well established easy mode/whale bait toon, to prove a point is...fine...but a solid group, stripped down to base il would better serve the conversation.
Here's the thing. It's hard for incompetent players that could potentially need that gear.
It's not hard for competent players.
If you put better gear on incompetent players, that won't make them competent.
That is why I for instance, while a pretty decent GWF - get completely wrecked by WickedDuck even tho his IL is ~500 less than mine iirc. So yeah.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I suggest a better way, buff CN orcus back. When it was released, it needed a tank to tank it, and not any random class, and people needed to actually move from the green balls, not ignore them.
Linear learning curve, and tanks that will learn how to tank.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It could mean that 90% of your students are dummies, sure. But this is statistically unlikely. A more reasonable explanation is that the exam was not a fair assessment of the students' knowledge and abilities.
I personally see no issue with a test where 90%, or even 100% of the students fail, provided they were taught the tools necessary to participate in the test. This is possible, if a test is testing the students on very creative applications of what they were taught and not just regurgitating it word for word. In fact I prefer testing environments like this and would rather 90% of students fail because the test was hard and required them to really think on how to apply their knowledge, then the test was too easy.
People these days forget that the process of education is not about achieving a certain mark or grading, it is about learning and self improvement. Failure is ok, so long as you learn something in the process and I would rather fail on a test that challenged me, made me think and I learned something from in the process, then succeed on a test that did not challenge me at all.
The problem that I see in this is where do you stop at making the dungeon easier? If you make the hill easier then when players get to the first boss and can't get past do you make that boss easier? What about the second boss? What about the third boss? If your seeing a trend that is because you would essentially make the dungeon easier to the point that FBI would be as easy as CN so we can get players through it. Then MSP gets the same treatment making it next to nothing to complete. Then ToNG gets made into a dungeon that is as easy as CN so everyone can get their ultimate enchanting stones without having to actually do something that may be too difficult. I am not a fan of this since it is an accomplishment to finish these end game dungeons for the first time. If you make them easy like CN then you take away the accomplishment and are just handing out rewards for participation.
The reason that you were having such trouble when I watched your video is that you were not playing the mechanic of tanking that many monsters quite well. I have no issue with the encounter powers you used but the issue I saw is that you weren't moving much in that fight and didn't really see many dailies used (mentioned earlier I believe in the thread). A 18k OP will have a hard time standing and face tanking everything in the FBI hill climb let alone a 13k OP trying to do it. The mechanic to this fight is to get the monsters to a plateau and then fight them as if they are running after you in a circle. This requires the tank to use abilities that gain threat and maintain it. The DPS are supposed to be picking off the weak ones and thinning the monsters until they are all killed making sure to stay out of not just the red circles but using situational awareness that when a giant or huge bear swings at them it is going to hurt. This is the first intro to where the Tank doesn't get the chance to baby along the DPS class players and protect them from all of the attacks as several of the basic attacks from these monsters can one shot even the tank if not blocked. This is the beginning dungeon that players have to learn the basic features such as immunity frames, positioning multiple times in a fight, removing combat advantage on themselves and how to coordinate/buff their teammates. If you take this away from this dungeon you then your just passing it along to the next dungeon to have this same statement made until we are talking about the last dungeon being nerfed to allow people to finish it. Each of these dungeons whether you noticed it or not uses the mechanics of the previous dungeons starting with FBI and incorporates those into them. If you don't know how to get passed the easier versions in FBI/MSP/ToNG then you will hit a brick wall when you get to the current "end game" content. I think the difficulty of FBI is fine at this time and would prefer that the developers time be spent on making new content which could even be content that fills the jump between CN and FBI.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Don't turn NW into hardship, don't make the same mistake schools make by over cuddling, vote for linear learning curve, help people to succeed and enjoy their success.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
You stop making the dungeon easier when it offers rewards that are needed for current endgame character progression.
Disagree, but ALL the dungeons offer rewards that are needed for endgame progression. Usually in the form of RP or rAD/salvage. Not necessarily gear.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I agree with you here. Which is why I'm in favor of linearizing the learning curve a little bit more by making it a more linear progression from pre-FBI dungeons to post-FBI, endgame dungeons.
but a solid group, stripped down to base il would better serve the conversation.
Once again - no. It's not about having a "solid team". Should it be necessary to construct a "solid team" for two-year-old dungeons?
If you don't want it to take 40 minutes, yes. The whole point is that even in your example you have finished, multiple deaths, mostly AFK TR, random group that is not working together, people go into combat one by one, die one by one, 0 communication, no group awareness, no dungeon mechanics like grabbing the Orc with reinforcements (TR with CB can easily do it, so is CW with entangle), the only thing that was missing was:
Enough with trivializing anything and everything, look at t2, no one cares about those, look at CN, no one cares about it, it's so easy that you don't need to understand anything, only hold a mouse button. You want it faster, you press QER and tab, when needed. This is why people reach FBI and have no clue how their class work, because they were never challenged, and no one explained them, or told them. The disease of soloQ, solo people with "I've did a build by tooltips" and "it's working for me" until it doesn't. And if people catch up that things becoming difficult while they still can do the dungeons, and look uphow to improve, and ask for help, win win. And the earlier the better.
I don't think outdated content is much of a priority to the devs, fbi might not be the best to run for progression but it is fun. And thats the whole point of playing a game in the 1st place, I really like running the t3 content over the t1/2 burns. Visually, mspc is a very nice dungeon, 2nd boss is still one of my favorites. we were all new at one point, 2 years ago we had to learn the same mechanics to do the dungeon. With better gear and better weapons more readily available to everyone, its a player issue not the game.
Comments
Approaching a simple question like this by way of the aforementioned is not how you get your point(s) taken seriously. Usually I say its unfortunate forum users are not representative of the majority player base but in this case I think its a good thing.
I now have more empathy for the Devs. This thread alone has more one shots and face palm crits then the trash mobs (better known as mini bosses) in FBI.
If people could finish it before, people can finish it now. Devs don't need to waste there time nerfing old content when the focus should be new content.
Maybe you guys just want a "teleport to end chest" scroll to spare yourselves the challenge.
First, comments like "oh me and my premade team did just fine in FBI so what's the problem" completely miss the point. OF COURSE premade teams will tend to do better than random ones. The point is, this dungeon is over two years old at this point, and is no longer an endgame dungeon, so random teams which meet the entrance requirements *ought* to stand more than a decent chance of finishing it. I shouldn't need a premade team that far exceeds the entrance requirements in order to farm a farming dungeon.
Second, the issue in my view is less about any individual player's skill, and more about how that skill is tested. Think of it this way. If you are a teacher and you give an exam to your students, and 90% of your students failed the exam, what does that mean? It could mean that 90% of your students are dummies, sure. But this is statistically unlikely. A more reasonable explanation is that the exam was not a fair assessment of the students' knowledge and abilities. If the real point of the difficult hill climb in FBI is to "toughen players up" and "get them ready for hard content", then why is this the appropriate place to do that, in a 2-year-old dungeon with no comparable rewards to offer for such an effort? Shouldn't that type of challenge be reserved more for dungeons that are closer to endgame, where the effort more closely matches the reward?
</blockquote>
Eh, I've graded a lot of papers as a TA, I don't think 90% is lowballing the number of dummies out there. And that's in mechanical engineering, which should be a reasonably competent subset of students. I think it's safe to say that those who know how to play the game well are heavily outnumbered by those that don't.
- Subject material is too hard?
- Students aren't doing their homework?
- Students are making violation of common sense decisions, like texting in class or surfing the net during lectures?
- The test questions are poorly written?
- The teacher just plain sucks at teaching?
- Any combo of the above?
Since Module 6, each new dungeon/instance/trial is almost always designed to curb the complacency/habits from the previous module.I got solo to turtle. Of course, I reset a few times cause I literally woke up 15 mins before doing the run. Prolly coulda soloed turtle too if I had 73 hours to scratch its shoulder to death.
So yeah, no, FBI doesn't need a nerf.
Also! I can’t begin to describe how much an /assist command would help in situations like the hill climb. The dps would be focused, the team organized, things would be fun.
There's a couple of different issues floating around this whole conversation.
1. Is there a population of players for which FBI is considered "easy"? Yes. Of course. A lot of them are on the forums.
2. Just because there are some players who regard FBI as "easy", does that make FBI overall as a dungeon an "easy dungeon"? Answer: no. It's all relative to the population of players who are being assessed by the dungeon.
3. For the population of players who tend to randomly solo queue into FBI, is the dungeon considered "easy"? I think the fair answer would be "no".
4. SHOULD this dungeon, which is two years old and offers no endgame rewards, be this difficult *for the population of players who randomly solo queue into the dungeon*? That is the real question here.
Regardless of what you think about my tanking abilities (or lack thereof), in my video, I was not the only one struggling on the hill climb portion of the fight. And the others who have commented here about their experiences random solo queueing into the dungeon have expressed similar frustration.
My opinion is that, at some point, there is no good reason to maintain this level of difficulty *for the population of players who randomly solo queue*, for a dungeon that is so old and so out of date. IF the dungeon is going to remain this difficult, then the rewards should be increased accordingly, for the effort that these teams have to expend to just get through it.
I honestly don't think it requires a huge nerf. Just maybe delete 1/3rd of the giants on the hill climb portion, perhaps reduce Drufi's hitpoints a little bit, and that would be about right.
So for those, we will ruin even more any of the liner progress that game struggles to have and create even stronger gap between t2 and actual content like tomb.
Then next week, we will have posts: "Nerf Tomb Orcus, it one shot the tank"
People completely lost the gratification and satisfaction of overcoming a challenge ? Is it all immediate gratification now ?
Lets also make CR entry level because new players want to play it too!
HAMSTER, let's remove the endgame too! Let's make Dark Souls easy!
Let's make more people whine about more irrelevant HAMSTER that doesn't actually affect them!
Let's all lose our HAMSTER minds in easy content that a HAMSTER tier GWF like me can solo!
Grow a pair, bud.
(also, @spidey#3367 look at my post above. 17.1k, got solo to turtle, couldnt be arsed to go further. and i aint even the best).
...it’s kinda like teaching someone to read using twitter, then being upset their grammar sucks.
Ps using a gwf, the well established easy mode/whale bait toon, to prove a point is...fine...but a solid group, stripped down to base il would better serve the conversation.
Here's the thing. It's hard for incompetent players that could potentially need that gear.
It's not hard for competent players.
If you put better gear on incompetent players, that won't make them competent.
That is why I for instance, while a pretty decent GWF - get completely wrecked by WickedDuck even tho his IL is ~500 less than mine iirc. So yeah.
Linear learning curve, and tanks that will learn how to tank.
People these days forget that the process of education is not about achieving a certain mark or grading, it is about learning and self improvement. Failure is ok, so long as you learn something in the process and I would rather fail on a test that challenged me, made me think and I learned something from in the process, then succeed on a test that did not challenge me at all.
The reason that you were having such trouble when I watched your video is that you were not playing the mechanic of tanking that many monsters quite well. I have no issue with the encounter powers you used but the issue I saw is that you weren't moving much in that fight and didn't really see many dailies used (mentioned earlier I believe in the thread). A 18k OP will have a hard time standing and face tanking everything in the FBI hill climb let alone a 13k OP trying to do it. The mechanic to this fight is to get the monsters to a plateau and then fight them as if they are running after you in a circle. This requires the tank to use abilities that gain threat and maintain it. The DPS are supposed to be picking off the weak ones and thinning the monsters until they are all killed making sure to stay out of not just the red circles but using situational awareness that when a giant or huge bear swings at them it is going to hurt. This is the first intro to where the Tank doesn't get the chance to baby along the DPS class players and protect them from all of the attacks as several of the basic attacks from these monsters can one shot even the tank if not blocked. This is the beginning dungeon that players have to learn the basic features such as immunity frames, positioning multiple times in a fight, removing combat advantage on themselves and how to coordinate/buff their teammates. If you take this away from this dungeon you then your just passing it along to the next dungeon to have this same statement made until we are talking about the last dungeon being nerfed to allow people to finish it. Each of these dungeons whether you noticed it or not uses the mechanics of the previous dungeons starting with FBI and incorporates those into them. If you don't know how to get passed the easier versions in FBI/MSP/ToNG then you will hit a brick wall when you get to the current "end game" content. I think the difficulty of FBI is fine at this time and would prefer that the developers time be spent on making new content which could even be content that fills the jump between CN and FBI.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Or you implying that someone was asking to make eToS as hard as CR?
Or what other straw-man we need forensics to check for murder?
But here:
https://www.folio.ca/uni-life-101--first-years-are-expected-to-struggle-with-grades/
Don't turn NW into hardship, don't make the same mistake schools make by over cuddling, vote for linear learning curve, help people to succeed and enjoy their success.
The whole point is that even in your example you have finished, multiple deaths, mostly AFK TR, random group that is not working together, people go into combat one by one, die one by one, 0 communication, no group awareness, no dungeon mechanics like grabbing the Orc with reinforcements (TR with CB can easily do it, so is CW with entangle), the only thing that was missing was:
And you still made it, so what more ??
Enough with trivializing anything and everything, look at t2, no one cares about those, look at CN, no one cares about it, it's so easy that you don't need to understand anything, only hold a mouse button. You want it faster, you press QER and tab, when needed.
This is why people reach FBI and have no clue how their class work, because they were never challenged, and no one explained them, or told them. The disease of soloQ, solo people with "I've did a build by tooltips" and "it's working for me" until it doesn't. And if people catch up that things becoming difficult while they still can do the dungeons, and look uphow to improve, and ask for help, win win. And the earlier the better.