Its false that you cannot do content with whatever party composition you want to take, it is possible, thats why the Private Queue is there.
No it's not false so don't pretend like each content can be beaten with whatever party composition. For instance The Acrolith strictly depends upon having enough damage, lest the boss kills you after 4th pillar and wipes entire party.
What would be the difference of having two parties :
1 party :
MoF Dc Dc Gf Op
2 party
Sw MoF SS Op Dc
Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?
Let us say that they are all at 15.5K IL - 16.5K IL
If your choice is party one that beats content faster, much faster, then you have successfully confirmed my position as well, which means that Power Sharing meta needs to go so that we can finally have content not being made with having 200-300K power being shared on mind.
And that will also make other people stop saying how content is "easy" since it's really not easy.
I will address other points later as I'm not at liberty talking things in detail.
If you want to tell me that party 2 is better than party 1, I want you to prove it. If not, then welcome to the topic where there are party composition problematics that we need to discuss and solve.
If think party class composition matters much less than player skill.
Especially in CR, understanding / respecting dungeon mechanics and coordinating with your party has a bigger impact on completion time than just the gear or class composition. For example:
I've wiped repeatedly and given up after about 30min with "Party 1" including some 17k folks because the OP and GF didn't know what they were doing on the sisters boss fight.
I've succeeded with "Party 2" except we had an HR instead of SS as main DPS in about 30min, which is a respectable run in my book. And then repeated it a few times, shaving a few minutes off each time.
I don't expect to convince someone with such firmly held beliefs, but I figured I'd chime in for the benefit of others watching this thread. I do agree that pug "lfg" has perception/misconception issues about party composition. But if you find people who are open to learning mechanics and working together, then you don't have to succumb to the same barriers.
- Party one has 3 people wearing at least Pure Feytouched at bare minimum.
- Party two has Dread, Terror, Lightning, Vorpal and let's say that the last person wears Radiant.
Which party wins faster?
If you're trying to imply that people with gear better suited to their builds finish dungeons faster than I absolutely agree with you, and don't see this as a problem.
GF increases the speed, yes, exponentially. Especially at Acrolith who's a Do-Or-Die type of a boss.
I was referring to speed outside of combat, running between fights makes up a significantly larger portion of dungeons than most people give credit for.
Couple of minutes is vague, void and doesn't mean anything. It can mean from 2 to 5 to 10 to 30 minutes altogether.
With the vague question asked I felt the need to reply with a vague time frame. Somewhere around 2 minutes was what I would guess the difference being based off my own runs in T9 with similar comps, and I still think that's mostly due to out of combat movement speed.
Really the only reason I replied in the first place was because you were making it sound like power share would be the reason the first group would be faster, when in reality both groups you listed had the same power share available to them. Hell, the group with the SW could have had more power with dark revelry if they're a temp.
Regardless this whole exercise seems pointless and not really related to the topic so I'll leave it be here.
Especially in CR, understanding / respecting dungeon mechanics and coordinating with your party has a bigger impact on completion time than just the gear or class composition. For example:
I've wiped repeatedly and given up after about 30min with "Party 1" including some 17k folks because the OP and GF didn't know what they were doing on the sisters boss fight.
I've succeeded with "Party 2" except we had an HR instead of SS as main DPS in about 30min, which is a respectable run in my book. And then repeated it a few times, shaving a few minutes off each time.
I don't expect to convince someone with such firmly held beliefs, but I figured I'd chime in for the benefit of others watching this thread.
But that's just me. Problem is never boss mechanics, that gets learnt in time.
Problem are people who leave asap someone says "1st run" or similar.
Just talked to one DC and one SW, both of which who were nice. I can't say their names as I didn't ask for their permission, but DC said that they ran CR for the first time, at which OP left asap.
Then I, and others, had to wait for another 30 minutes or so just to get another OP. We got another OP, ofc. In the meantime we talked and I stated something in the vein of helping others who run for the first time.
This was the OP who left BECAUSE the DC plays for the first time.
DC!!!
I bet that OP didn't even take a look at which class said it, but ofc left asap. This is just a tiny part of vitriol I'm talking about in LFG.
I wasn't even in LFG, just did a queue.
In the meantime the DPS SW was thinking about making a support class in order to play new content.
This shouldn't be encouraged, people shouldn't be encouraged to switch and change classes. This is wrong. This is infuriating and makes people sad!
I do agree that pug "lfg" has perception/misconception issues about party composition. But if you find people who are open to learning mechanics and working together, then you don't have to succumb to the same barriers.
Then, let's focus on that. This is the topic about that specifically, one of the major point anyways.
Finding people on speeddial isn't solving anything. Once they leave/aren't available to play, you're as good as not playing at all. This should be avoided. We need solutions. Pragmatic.
BTW thank you for joining the discussion.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
With the vague question asked I felt the need to reply with a vague time frame. Somewhere around 2 minutes was what I would guess the difference being based off my own runs in T9 with similar comps, and I still think that's mostly due to out of combat movement speed.
Okay, I admit that the question wasn't specific or AS specific as it should get. This is my mistake and I admit that. However, I also felt that people who do understand classes will immediately see just how superior is the 2x DC 1 x OP in a pt filled with Feytouched in contrast to the 2nd group.
They aren't in particularily different to a greater extent, but some powers and weapon enchantments make all the diff. And I'm not talking about the speed of the content as 2 CWs, as silly as it may sound, can also utilize ST on tab and produce a similar effect to that of a GF. I did something similar back in Gauntlgrym. But no that wasn't the point. Hehe wouldn't make sense for it to be the case. : )
Really the only reason I replied in the first place was because you were making it sound like power share would be the reason the first group would be faster, when in reality both groups you listed had the same power share available to them. Hell, the group with the SW could have had more power with dark revelry if they're a temp.
SAME power share? : )
Eh...
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
The second DC doesn't add any powershare. Weapons of light doesn't stack, and DO DCs don't have access to Blessings of Battle or Anointed Army (the only other sources of DC powershare).
So yes, both parties you listed can power share the same amount, and the second group can get even higher power with dark revelry.
I won't be reading that insignificant wall of text you just wrote for no apparent reason other than to provoke me and try to prove how you're somehow abiding by the rules.
I am, however, the OP of the topic and it's my duty to some extent to direct people to the topic so that there is no derailment. I have done this in a calm and suitable manner more than once, trying to get people back on the track.
I have answered to more than 10 people simultaneously and am effectively leading several discussions with several people.
If you do not provide something of substance I would suggest that you stop bugging me on the topic as I already got full hands without you constantly trying to derail it further.
As per my courtesy I can't leave you without any comment because I do feel that everyone deserves one. If you consider yourself morally higher in the given discussion, please prove it by avoiding posting anything unless it's directly connected to the party composition. By doing so you will inevitably manage two very important things
1) Your posts will hold some substance in terms of being ON-TOPIC. This is extremely important 2) You won't be finding yourself talking to me, whatsoever, due to a fact that you'd be on-track with the topic.
If you can't find yourself talking about the topic in terms of providing useful info in terms of party compositions as well as what would be a good idea in terms of party compositions, I only ask you to stop wasting both of our times as I won't be reading what you have to say because it's not interesting nor important to me what you may or may not think of me, personally.
As I already stressed it out, if you have something against me you're completely free to PM me. If your goal is to continuously derail and troll, I will be forced to utilize measures which I do not want to do and it revolves around flagging the content.
If your goal is to debate or join the discussion, please do so by talking strictly about the idea behind it. Do not get preoccupied by how I talk or what my actions are, as you will be saving yourself the trouble of writing and, inevitably, saving me the trouble of telling you why your actions are insignificant in proving anything or even getting to me by any extent.
Thank you kindly
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
@c1k4ml3kc3 yeah same power, weapons of light doesn't stack anymore so the do dc doesn't power share at all, or if the do its canceled out by the ac if they have higher power. Depending on if the op is tank or healer in the 1st grp counts too since protection has that mechanic where the get 10% of their HP as power. So 2nd grp most likely has the same or more power.
@c1k4ml3kc3 yeah same power, weapons of light doesn't stack anymore so the do dc doesn't power share at all, or if the do its canceled out by the ac if they have higher power. Depending on if the op is tank or healer in the 1st grp counts too since protection has that mechanic where the get 10% of their HP as power. So 2nd grp
most likely has the same or more power.
Have you tested this in practice?
OP is always Tank in both situations.
I like how people completely skip over the GF in the mixture.
Talk about what would 1 x GF add in the group @ 2nd Boss CR.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
@c1k4ml3kc3 First of all, we all know what the topic is
If you understand what the topic is, then please abide by what the topic is about. I did not ask for help in how to play the game. I know how to play the game. The topic is not about me not being able to play the game. The topic is about Party Composition problematics. Taking things out of the context in the topic are befalling only people who spam and do not provide anything of value. In the given post you started acting in a rather silly manner which to me looks like it is a pure spam. You are not having any authority on telling me how to play, you do not know me, you do not know my friends, you do not understand the topic simply because you are persistently pursuing this agenda of yours thinking how you're helping. NO, you are NOT HELPING. You are DERAILING the topic without providing anything useful and as such you are making a logical fallacy by claiming that you understand the topic whilst completely failing to provide any written content which follows the topic at hand. You simply want to argue and talk from a high horse position thinking that people do not know how to play the game. That has nothing to do with anything topic-wise and makes the whole thing unnecessary.
My question to you is - will you be sticking to the topic or not? If your answer is latter, then I must ask you to avoid the topic altogether since you can't bring anything of value to it as your goal might not be to offer insight on BALANCING the party composition, which sorely needs balancing and has been needing balancing for several mods now.
As we are all aware, there were numerous NERFS to the Power Sharing and this is the topic orientation at the moment. If you want to join, please, by all means welcome. If you want to assume out of thin air or the crystal ball that I somehow do not know NWO, please, by all means receive a flag for spamming and being obnoxious whilst insulting like you did in the very post I'm quoting atm.
Thank you kindly. Have a nice time.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Its false that you cannot do content with whatever party composition you want to take, it is possible, thats why the Private Queue is there.
No it's not false so don't pretend like each content can be beaten with whatever party composition. For instance The Acrolith strictly depends upon having enough damage, lest the boss kills you after 4th pillar and wipes entire party.
What would be the difference of having two parties :
1 party :
MoF Dc Dc Gf Op
2 party
Sw MoF SS Op Dc
Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?
Let us say that they are all at 15.5K IL - 16.5K IL
If your choice is party one that beats content faster, much faster, then you have successfully confirmed my position as well, which means that Power Sharing meta needs to go so that we can finally have content not being made with having 200-300K power being shared on mind.
And that will also make other people stop saying how content is "easy" since it's really not easy.
I will address other points later as I'm not at liberty talking things in detail.
If you want to tell me that party 2 is better than party 1, I want you to prove it. If not, then welcome to the topic where there are party composition problematics that we need to discuss and solve.
If think party class composition matters much less than player skill.
Especially in CR, understanding / respecting dungeon mechanics and coordinating with your party has a bigger impact on completion time than just the gear or class composition. For example:
I've wiped repeatedly and given up after about 30min with "Party 1" including some 17k folks because the OP and GF didn't know what they were doing on the sisters boss fight.
I've succeeded with "Party 2" except we had an HR instead of SS as main DPS in about 30min, which is a respectable run in my book. And then repeated it a few times, shaving a few minutes off each time.
I don't expect to convince someone with such firmly held beliefs, but I figured I'd chime in for the benefit of others watching this thread. I do agree that pug "lfg" has perception/misconception issues about party composition. But if you find people who are open to learning mechanics and working together, then you don't have to succumb to the same barriers.
Yes, more so, with DPS GF prone to timing mistakes. Mistime the buff window with the burst, and it all goes to the crapper. In a less refined group than the optimal (skill wise), constant high daamge is usually better than mistimed high burst.
> @c1k4ml3kc3 said: > @c1k4ml3kc3 yeah same power, weapons of light doesn't stack anymore so the do dc doesn't power share at all, or if the do its canceled out by the ac if they have higher power. Depending on if the op is tank or healer in the 1st grp counts too since protection has that mechanic where the get 10% of their HP as power. So 2nd grp > > most likely has the same or more power. > > Have you tested this in practice? > > OP is always Tank in both situations. > > I like how people completely skip over the GF in the mixture. > > Talk about what would 1 x GF add in the group @ 2nd Boss CR.
I would prefer to have the op be a healadin in the 1st grp, having them bane the gf is a 30% damage buff if that can keep up 3 stacks consistenly. I would rather have that than slightly more power sharing, gf should be able to tank and dps with 2 dc and a healer imo.
The second DC doesn't add any powershare. Weapons of light doesn't stack, and DO DCs don't have access to Blessings of Battle or Anointed Army (the only other sources of DC powershare).
So yes, both parties you listed can power share the same amount, and the second group can get even higher power with dark revelry.
SW is not temp.
Also, which one is faster?
Can you explain what is "Optimal" party for defeating CR's 2nd Boss?
What would be the fastest time in beating 2nd boss?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I would prefer to have the op be a healadin in the 1st grp, having them bane the gf is a 30% damage buff if that can keep up 3 stacks consistenly. I would rather have that than slightly more power sharing, gf should be able to tank and dps with 2 dc and a healer imo.
So in conclusion, the 1st party has better DPS option?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Can you explain what is "Optimal" party for defeating CR's 2nd Boss?
The optimal party is a group of 5 people who understand boss mechanics and know how to build and play their class and utilize the buffs being provided by their teammates.
You will receive an answer, same applies to monkey, in a reasonable timespan. It won't be today, I'm afraid, as both of you have written rather long texts and those take time to see and process on each element and argument.
Just to note that both you and monkey have understood the topic finally and I thank you for joining it. I can only hope that others will follow the similar example and also join talking about the party compositions.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
> @c1k4ml3kc3 said: > I would prefer to have the op be a healadin in the 1st grp, having them bane the gf is a 30% damage buff if that can keep up 3 stacks consistenly. I would rather have that than slightly more power sharing, gf should be able to tank and dps with 2 dc and a healer imo. > > So in conclusion, the 1st party has better DPS option?
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
If you want to join, please, by all means welcome. If you want to assume out of thin air or the crystal ball that I somehow do not know NWO, please, by all means receive a flag for spamming and being obnoxious whilst insulting like you did in the very post I'm quoting atm.
I am not assuming, i know. You just have proven it yourself by assuming that 2x DC will get you more power. You do NOT know how it works, thats my main point and you still didnt respond if you have read the CW guide or not.
To have success with various compositions you first have to know how the stuff works so start there. Even tho you can attend CR with any composition you want with Private Queue it is the latest and hardest content this game has to offer. Having optimal party doesnt guarantee you success either if the players dont know how stuff works and what to do so what do you expect from non-optimal parties?
Can you explain what is "Optimal" party for defeating CR's 2nd Boss?
The optimal party is a group of 5 people who understand boss mechanics and know how to build and play their class and utilize the buffs being provided by their teammates.
Everything else is just gravy.
That's also rather vague.
As someone mentioned above, you do not need this sort of intrinsic/meticulous pursue in order to beat the content. As someone stated you do not need to "ACT" in order to find the optimal composition, no?
I do not think that it happens. I also do not think that finding the optimal party should be the best choice, more so due to nerfs.
For instance, spending AD on Lightning Enchantment MOD12 had some sense to do, but eventually it got nerfed as expected. You'd consider the given ench "optimal", but optimal for how long and for whom? It inevitably drags at least 5 new problems with it.
I do not think that LFG or people in general do this sort of a thing. Most people I encounter are extremely casual, but would rather skip content then play it altogether.
I have people denying playing CR because it's too hard for them. They say how they'll play it in 3-4 mods from now without spending a dime.
How does that help anyone? It doesn't help either people selling items, crafting, nor it helps cryptic to any extent. What good is to get better if you barely play anything at all waiting for Tank/Healer to join the pt?
Again, speeddial Op/Dc network isn't solving anything in the longer run. It only creates exclusivity within exclusivity, networks inside networks. And then you're forced to play RaQ/ReQ with pugs being confused what to do, and having "elite" players leaving as soon as one skull's placed indirectly from ghost boss. And you're stuck not doing anything for the rest of the day because you only befall on CODG which people try to avoid.
So, in summing up, all of that needs to change to better and if you have some proposition on how to do so then be my guest.
Thanks
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I am not assuming, i know. You just have proven it yourself by assuming that 2x DC will get you more power. You do NOT know how it works, thats my main point and you still didnt respond if you have read the CW guide or not.
Where did I "assume more power"? Please, find me this quote, otherwise you're outright lying and spamming.
You just see someone else saying that and then just assume that I assume that that's the sentence about? Like diaryzeus assumed that I'm talking about the GF speed (actual speed, like walking around the dungeon lol) instead of beating the content having the PT composition at hand? Well, great.
In fact I am one of the people directly/indirectly responsible for the 2XDC nerf and their conjoined powersharing. Problem is that this still doesn't stop the parties from taking 2xDC as proven by LFG/PT compositions far and wide. So, yeah, I do know it and I'm familiar with it. Thanks for NOT asking anything.
Now a question for you : Why do people still take 2 x DC in the party composition in order to beat the content?
Please, ask me again if I read a CW guide. That really helps with your image of a smart person.
"What would be the difference of having two parties :
1 party :
MoF Dc Dc Gf Op
2 party
Sw MoF SS Op Dc
Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?"
I do not see any "power" talk.
I did mention "power sharing needs to go", but that's a prevailing theme throughout the entire discussion here, regardless of this particular question. Actually my main point of notice is the inclusion of a GF. Instead of that one DC you can put just about anything, it still makes PT1 faster.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic.
Yes, but SW isn't templock.
Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic.
Yes, but SW isn't templock.
Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic.
Yes, but SW isn't templock.
Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
No
Can you explain why taking GF would be a bad choice in terms of party composition for CR, especially on 2nd Boss?
Let's say it's Exped GF and Exped MoF (i.e. they know how to utilize burst)
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I am not assuming, i know. You just have proven it yourself by assuming that 2x DC will get you more power. You do NOT know how it works, thats my main point and you still didnt respond if you have read the CW guide or not.
Where did I "assume more power"? Please, find me this quote, otherwise you're outright lying and spamming.
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic.
Yes, but SW isn't templock.
Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
No
Can you explain why taking GF would be a bad choice in terms of party composition for CR, especially on 2nd Boss?
Let's say it's Exped GF and Exped MoF (i.e. they know how to utilize burst)
1. I can't explain why GF will be a bad choice, as it was not the original question, nor it's a bad choice.
2. I can explain why CR, and specifically 2nd boss doesn't benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF over some other options, but unfortunately it will take a significant wall of text and off topic. However you are free to look right here:
And Google "Castle ravenloft guide" and the 2 first results (parts of the same guide) will explain that KV which is one of the favorable choice vs bats is used in non-melt groups, doesn't affect the time, and not related to the second boss.
"What would be the difference of having two parties :
1 party :
MoF Dc Dc Gf Op
2 party
Sw MoF SS Op Dc
Your whole restrictions to the second group sounds like you restrict them further, until someone says, that the first group runs the dungeon in 5 min and for the second group its impossible to complete it. So restrict the second group to "assume all members are lvl 1. Which group will complete the dungeon faster?"
You cant compare an optimized group to a non-optimized group. I mean optimized equipment. A Player, who refuse to optimize the char shouldnt be able to complete a dungeon in a reasonable time like an optimized char.
> @c1k4ml3kc3 said: > depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example. > > Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic. > > Yes, but SW isn't templock. > > Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
As long as u have good support that know wat they are doing and the dps knows their stuff tbh u could sub the gf for an hr or tr etc. If a gf misses their timing that's a pretty big lose, time wise we're talking a min or so I guess instead of another dps if they know wat they're doing. Nothing too big, its all about balancing ur party buffs and debuffs. I would personally swap an ac out for a templock in the 1st grp. U get power share from the pally and if everyone is using Shepard's ur good on defense, ac might have ff/exalt but a templock can bring a lot of buffs/debuffs and heals in addition to combat advantage if u don't run a gf as the dps. Last boss with sun sword, the do could swap to ac and double pop dailies when whoever has the sunsword uses that one encounter so hg and as are up. Plus temp lock will usually do more damage than an ac dc.
Your whole restrictions to the second group sounds like you restrict them further, until someone says, that the first group runs the dungeon in 5 min and for the second group its impossible to complete it. So restrict the second group to "assume all members are lvl 1. Which group will complete the dungeon faster?"
You cant compare an optimized group to a non-optimized group. I mean optimized equipment. A Player, who refuse to optimize the char shouldnt be able to complete a dungeon in a reasonable time like an optimized char.
Heh.
I like how you consider them to be as restricted as LVL 1 chars.
Question is why wouldn't the selected party be viable to play with and manage to beat content better than group 1?
It is not a question of being optimized, but being useful more than another group.
In both cases there are both DC and OP, yet you say how I restricted one group over another by not giving them optimized equipment.
Well, guess what? I shouldn't be giving them optimized equipment in the first case scenario as content should be beaten with any sub-par weapon enchantment without much time/damage penalty.
But this is another case altogether, my specific point was to have class SYNERGY as the main dish here, rather than explaining what each char wears.
Obviously the party 1 wins, but nobody wants to tag along and explain why so in-detail. Only one person did it, but others know or do not want to acknowledge it nor see it as anything bad even though it's a str8 example without much beating around the bush.
And, yeah, LFG is filled with that. How to stop that? That's the question. The question is not whether everyone is optimized with all R13s - R14s etc.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
As long as u have good support that know wat they are doing and the dps knows their stuff tbh u could sub the gf for an hr or tr etc. If a gf misses their timing that's a pretty big lose, time wise we're talking a min or so I guess instead of another dps if they know wat they're doing. Nothing too big, its all about balancing ur party buffs and debuffs. I would personally swap an ac out for a templock in the 1st grp. U get power share from the pally and if everyone is using Shepard's ur good on defense, ac might have ff/exalt but a templock can bring a lot of buffs/debuffs and heals in addition to combat advantage if u don't run a gf as the dps. Last boss with sun sword, the do could swap to ac and double pop dailies when whoever has the sunsword uses that one encounter so hg and as are up. Plus temp lock will usually do more damage than an ac dc.
Here's another question. Can a group of Tank OP and Healer OP with 3 DPS beat 2nd boss CR before it turns into a huge whirlwind of death?
I consider - no, not really. What do you think? The boss would remain with around 23-25% of HP I think.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
As long as u have good support that know wat they are doing and the dps knows their stuff tbh u could sub the gf for an hr or tr etc. If a gf misses their timing that's a pretty big lose, time wise we're talking a min or so I guess instead of another dps if they know wat they're doing. Nothing too big, its all about balancing ur party buffs and debuffs. I would personally swap an ac out for a templock in the 1st grp. U get power share from the pally and if everyone is using Shepard's ur good on defense, ac might have ff/exalt but a templock can bring a lot of buffs/debuffs and heals in addition to combat advantage if u don't run a gf as the dps. Last boss with sun sword, the do could swap to ac and double pop dailies when whoever has the sunsword uses that one encounter so hg and as are up. Plus temp lock will usually do more damage than an ac dc.
Here's another question. Can a group of Tank OP and Healer OP with 3 DPS beat 2nd boss CR before it turns into a huge whirlwind of death?
I consider - no, not really. What do you think? The boss would remain with around 23-25% of HP I think.
You want to bet? What do I win if I do it? Put your money where your mouth is here. A friend of mine wants a legendary snail, seems fair? 3 dps and 2 ops? Easy.
Comments
Especially in CR, understanding / respecting dungeon mechanics and coordinating with your party has a bigger impact on completion time than just the gear or class composition. For example:
I've wiped repeatedly and given up after about 30min with "Party 1" including some 17k folks because the OP and GF didn't know what they were doing on the sisters boss fight.
I've succeeded with "Party 2" except we had an HR instead of SS as main DPS in about 30min, which is a respectable run in my book. And then repeated it a few times, shaving a few minutes off each time.
I don't expect to convince someone with such firmly held beliefs, but I figured I'd chime in for the benefit of others watching this thread. I do agree that pug "lfg" has perception/misconception issues about party composition. But if you find people who are open to learning mechanics and working together, then you don't have to succumb to the same barriers.
Really the only reason I replied in the first place was because you were making it sound like power share would be the reason the first group would be faster, when in reality both groups you listed had the same power share available to them. Hell, the group with the SW could have had more power with dark revelry if they're a temp.
Regardless this whole exercise seems pointless and not really related to the topic so I'll leave it be here.
https://s22.postimg.cc/8m9fec1s1/screenshot_2018-08-24-17-37-53.jpg
But that's just me. Problem is never boss mechanics, that gets learnt in time.
Problem are people who leave asap someone says "1st run" or similar.
Just talked to one DC and one SW, both of which who were nice. I can't say their names as I didn't ask for their permission, but DC said that they ran CR for the first time, at which OP left asap.
Then I, and others, had to wait for another 30 minutes or so just to get another OP. We got another OP, ofc. In the meantime we talked and I stated something in the vein of helping others who run for the first time.
This was the OP who left BECAUSE the DC plays for the first time.
DC!!!
I bet that OP didn't even take a look at which class said it, but ofc left asap. This is just a tiny part of vitriol I'm talking about in LFG.
I wasn't even in LFG, just did a queue.
In the meantime the DPS SW was thinking about making a support class in order to play new content.
This shouldn't be encouraged, people shouldn't be encouraged to switch and change classes. This is wrong. This is infuriating and makes people sad! Then, let's focus on that. This is the topic about that specifically, one of the major point anyways.
Finding people on speeddial isn't solving anything. Once they leave/aren't available to play, you're as good as not playing at all. This should be avoided. We need solutions. Pragmatic.
BTW thank you for joining the discussion.
They aren't in particularily different to a greater extent, but some powers and weapon enchantments make all the diff. And I'm not talking about the speed of the content as 2 CWs, as silly as it may sound, can also utilize ST on tab and produce a similar effect to that of a GF. I did something similar back in Gauntlgrym. But no that wasn't the point. Hehe wouldn't make sense for it to be the case. : ) SAME power share? : )
Eh...
So yes, both parties you listed can power share the same amount, and the second group can get even higher power with dark revelry.
I am, however, the OP of the topic and it's my duty to some extent to direct people to the topic so that there is no derailment. I have done this in a calm and suitable manner more than once, trying to get people back on the track.
I have answered to more than 10 people simultaneously and am effectively leading several discussions with several people.
If you do not provide something of substance I would suggest that you stop bugging me on the topic as I already got full hands without you constantly trying to derail it further.
As per my courtesy I can't leave you without any comment because I do feel that everyone deserves one. If you consider yourself morally higher in the given discussion, please prove it by avoiding posting anything unless it's directly connected to the party composition. By doing so you will inevitably manage two very important things
1) Your posts will hold some substance in terms of being ON-TOPIC. This is extremely important
2) You won't be finding yourself talking to me, whatsoever, due to a fact that you'd be on-track with the topic.
If you can't find yourself talking about the topic in terms of providing useful info in terms of party compositions as well as what would be a good idea in terms of party compositions, I only ask you to stop wasting both of our times as I won't be reading what you have to say because it's not interesting nor important to me what you may or may not think of me, personally.
As I already stressed it out, if you have something against me you're completely free to PM me. If your goal is to continuously derail and troll, I will be forced to utilize measures which I do not want to do and it revolves around flagging the content.
If your goal is to debate or join the discussion, please do so by talking strictly about the idea behind it. Do not get preoccupied by how I talk or what my actions are, as you will be saving yourself the trouble of writing and, inevitably, saving me the trouble of telling you why your actions are insignificant in proving anything or even getting to me by any extent.
Thank you kindly
most likely has the same or more power.
OP is always Tank in both situations.
I like how people completely skip over the GF in the mixture.
Talk about what would 1 x GF add in the group @ 2nd Boss CR.
I did not ask for help in how to play the game. I know how to play the game. The topic is not about me not being able to play the game. The topic is about Party Composition problematics.
Taking things out of the context in the topic are befalling only people who spam and do not provide anything of value. In the given post you started acting in a rather silly manner which to me looks like it is a pure spam.
You are not having any authority on telling me how to play, you do not know me, you do not know my friends, you do not understand the topic simply because you are persistently pursuing this agenda of yours thinking how you're helping.
NO, you are NOT HELPING. You are DERAILING the topic without providing anything useful and as such you are making a logical fallacy by claiming that you understand the topic whilst completely failing to provide any written content which follows the topic at hand.
You simply want to argue and talk from a high horse position thinking that people do not know how to play the game. That has nothing to do with anything topic-wise and makes the whole thing unnecessary.
My question to you is - will you be sticking to the topic or not? If your answer is latter, then I must ask you to avoid the topic altogether since you can't bring anything of value to it as your goal might not be to offer insight on BALANCING the party composition, which sorely needs balancing and has been needing balancing for several mods now.
As we are all aware, there were numerous NERFS to the Power Sharing and this is the topic orientation at the moment. If you want to join, please, by all means welcome. If you want to assume out of thin air or the crystal ball that I somehow do not know NWO, please, by all means receive a flag for spamming and being obnoxious whilst insulting like you did in the very post I'm quoting atm.
Thank you kindly. Have a nice time.
> @c1k4ml3kc3 yeah same power, weapons of light doesn't stack anymore so the do dc doesn't power share at all, or if the do its canceled out by the ac if they have higher power. Depending on if the op is tank or healer in the 1st grp counts too since protection has that mechanic where the get 10% of their HP as power. So 2nd grp
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> most likely has the same or more power.
>
> Have you tested this in practice?
>
> OP is always Tank in both situations.
>
> I like how people completely skip over the GF in the mixture.
>
> Talk about what would 1 x GF add in the group @ 2nd Boss CR.
I would prefer to have the op be a healadin in the 1st grp, having them bane the gf is a 30% damage buff if that can keep up 3 stacks consistenly. I would rather have that than slightly more power sharing, gf should be able to tank and dps with 2 dc and a healer imo.
Also, which one is faster?
Can you explain what is "Optimal" party for defeating CR's 2nd Boss?
What would be the fastest time in beating 2nd boss?
Everything else is just gravy.
Just to note that both you and monkey have understood the topic finally and I thank you for joining it. I can only hope that others will follow the similar example and also join talking about the party compositions.
> I would prefer to have the op be a healadin in the 1st grp, having them bane the gf is a 30% damage buff if that can keep up 3 stacks consistenly. I would rather have that than slightly more power sharing, gf should be able to tank and dps with 2 dc and a healer imo.
>
> So in conclusion, the 1st party has better DPS option?
depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
To have success with various compositions you first have to know how the stuff works so start there.
Even tho you can attend CR with any composition you want with Private Queue it is the latest and hardest content this game has to offer. Having optimal party doesnt guarantee you success either if the players dont know how stuff works and what to do so what do you expect from non-optimal parties?
And, again, did you read the CW guide?
As someone mentioned above, you do not need this sort of intrinsic/meticulous pursue in order to beat the content. As someone stated you do not need to "ACT" in order to find the optimal composition, no?
I do not think that it happens. I also do not think that finding the optimal party should be the best choice, more so due to nerfs.
For instance, spending AD on Lightning Enchantment MOD12 had some sense to do, but eventually it got nerfed as expected. You'd consider the given ench "optimal", but optimal for how long and for whom? It inevitably drags at least 5 new problems with it.
I do not think that LFG or people in general do this sort of a thing. Most people I encounter are extremely casual, but would rather skip content then play it altogether.
I have people denying playing CR because it's too hard for them. They say how they'll play it in 3-4 mods from now without spending a dime.
How does that help anyone? It doesn't help either people selling items, crafting, nor it helps cryptic to any extent. What good is to get better if you barely play anything at all waiting for Tank/Healer to join the pt?
Again, speeddial Op/Dc network isn't solving anything in the longer run. It only creates exclusivity within exclusivity, networks inside networks. And then you're forced to play RaQ/ReQ with pugs being confused what to do, and having "elite" players leaving as soon as one skull's placed indirectly from ghost boss. And you're stuck not doing anything for the rest of the day because you only befall on CODG which people try to avoid.
So, in summing up, all of that needs to change to better and if you have some proposition on how to do so then be my guest.
Thanks
You just see someone else saying that and then just assume that I assume that that's the sentence about? Like diaryzeus assumed that I'm talking about the GF speed (actual speed, like walking around the dungeon lol) instead of beating the content having the PT composition at hand? Well, great.
In fact I am one of the people directly/indirectly responsible for the 2XDC nerf and their conjoined powersharing. Problem is that this still doesn't stop the parties from taking 2xDC as proven by LFG/PT compositions far and wide. So, yeah, I do know it and I'm familiar with it. Thanks for NOT asking anything.
Now a question for you : Why do people still take 2 x DC in the party composition in order to beat the content?
Please, ask me again if I read a CW guide. That really helps with your image of a smart person.
"What would be the difference of having two parties :
1 party :
MoF
Dc
Dc
Gf
Op
2 party
Sw
MoF
SS
Op
Dc
Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?"
I do not see any "power" talk.
I did mention "power sharing needs to go", but that's a prevailing theme throughout the entire discussion here, regardless of this particular question. Actually my main point of notice is the inclusion of a GF. Instead of that one DC you can put just about anything, it still makes PT1 faster.
Yes, but SW isn't templock.
Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
And the word is Ideally, not Idealistically.
Let's say it's Exped GF and Exped MoF (i.e. they know how to utilize burst)
2. I can explain why CR, and specifically 2nd boss doesn't benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF over some other options, but unfortunately it will take a significant wall of text and off topic. However you are free to look right here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3mCbLskTjFCtMOYnVb-AYLncw9VeDUpGATOZ8IPvPY/edit
And Google "Castle ravenloft guide" and the 2 first results (parts of the same guide) will explain that KV which is one of the favorable choice vs bats is used in non-melt groups, doesn't affect the time, and not related to the second boss.
So restrict the second group to "assume all members are lvl 1. Which group will complete the dungeon faster?"
You cant compare an optimized group to a non-optimized group. I mean optimized equipment. A Player, who refuse to optimize the char shouldnt be able to complete a dungeon in a reasonable time like an optimized char.
> depends on player skill, if everyone were able to time their buffs and debuffs sure. The difference wouldn't be too big tbh, if the sw was a templock in the 2nd grp for example.
>
> Thank you for your answer. At least someone understands this topic.
>
> Yes, but SW isn't templock.
>
> Idealistically, CR does benefit greatly time-wise from having a GF in a pt, especially @ 2nd boss, no?
As long as u have good support that know wat they are doing and the dps knows their stuff tbh u could sub the gf for an hr or tr etc. If a gf misses their timing that's a pretty big lose, time wise we're talking a min or so I guess instead of another dps if they know wat they're doing. Nothing too big, its all about balancing ur party buffs and debuffs. I would personally swap an ac out for a templock in the 1st grp. U get power share from the pally and if everyone is using Shepard's ur good on defense, ac might have ff/exalt but a templock can bring a lot of buffs/debuffs and heals in addition to combat advantage if u don't run a gf as the dps. Last boss with sun sword, the do could swap to ac and double pop dailies when whoever has the sunsword uses that one encounter so hg and as are up. Plus temp lock will usually do more damage than an ac dc.
I like how you consider them to be as restricted as LVL 1 chars.
Question is why wouldn't the selected party be viable to play with and manage to beat content better than group 1?
It is not a question of being optimized, but being useful more than another group.
In both cases there are both DC and OP, yet you say how I restricted one group over another by not giving them optimized equipment.
Well, guess what? I shouldn't be giving them optimized equipment in the first case scenario as content should be beaten with any sub-par weapon enchantment without much time/damage penalty.
But this is another case altogether, my specific point was to have class SYNERGY as the main dish here, rather than explaining what each char wears.
Obviously the party 1 wins, but nobody wants to tag along and explain why so in-detail. Only one person did it, but others know or do not want to acknowledge it nor see it as anything bad even though it's a str8 example without much beating around the bush.
And, yeah, LFG is filled with that. How to stop that? That's the question. The question is not whether everyone is optimized with all R13s - R14s etc.
Here's another question. Can a group of Tank OP and Healer OP with 3 DPS beat 2nd boss CR before it turns into a huge whirlwind of death?
I consider - no, not really. What do you think? The boss would remain with around 23-25% of HP I think.