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[PC] Epic Dungeon Party Composition Problematics

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  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User


    Uhmm you’re talking loadouts, I’m talking viable things i.e. fastest option to run. In idealistic party composition you’d want a MoF Rene and for general Epic Dungeon content you’d want MoF Rene with Feytouched weapon (+OP)

    In an "idealistic" party composition you don't want a MoF Renegade CW. MoF Rene is almost an entire waste in 9/10 (more than that probably) of the groups that I run with. Any "idealistic" party will already have CA up 100% of the time (or close enough, that it doesn't matter), no issues surviving (to need extra lifesteal), Critical Chance capped at 100% on the DPS toon(s), and Armor Penetration capped on the DPS toon(s).

    This means that the only thing you get from a MoF Rene (compared to other, better options) is Chaotic Fury. You have no power over when this buff happens, it is unreliable. That makes it much less valuable than having higher DPS + a buff that will be active during every single small (usually less than 6 seconds) window of opportunity to deal significant damage.

    Long story short MoF Renegade is not the "ideal" CW to bring along in an "idealistic" party. In PvP, all those buffs are greatly useful. Hence, that is one more loadout added to the list of "must haves" but I'm not going to delve into PvP. I just thought I would mention it because I'm loving PvP, with all my toons, right now.


    For skills you’d want to utilize Disintegrade and Icy Knife, especially on bosses, as fast as possible. That practically makes it the CW’s role in its most basic form.

    If you are playing as a full support CW you shouldn't use Icy Knife. You can't stack both fires that way.

    Yes, you can still reliably stack Smolder + Rimefire.


    When you say “AOE HYBRID DPS” it means absolutely nothing to me, I’d need to know your feats, belt/neck optimization, starting attributes, potions used, and equipment. You know what, best not to go in there as we might lose days and days solving and proving nothing in particular.

    Yes, please don't make me type out my whole build for each loadout here. They are basically 99% similar to all the different builds @thefabricant posted on MMO minds. By the way Sharp, I was so surprised when I saw that. Most people have a hard time posting one good build on that website. You offered a million of them in one post :D GG.


    No, I do not think that CW’s having many roles in a party composition. As we state SS Wizard isn’t really viable as much as MoF CW simply because of the lack of debuffs and more so since any SS CW atm will play as Opp/Thaum

    The YouTuber "Diamond Feather" ran a CR as SS (with no MoF in the party) in roughly 30 minutes (not even speed-running it), before the dungeon even hit the live server. SS CW is totally viable and fine where it is. You are experiencing players' discrimination towards the SS CW, not some outrageous paragon path imbalance. I promise you that you can run SS through a CR and do just fine.
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited August 2018



    No, I really do not know. Do you want to say how each particular build will perform the same or are you expressing how each build is viable once you put in the Op/Dc combo in the great soup of “variety”?

    The variety you speak about isn’t really variety, it’s option choices, and in that vein of option choices you only have one to two loadouts which essentially work the best.

    I mean, sure, you aren’t wrong if you want to state that CW has AMAZING adaptability, this is one of the leading traits of CWs in general, but when compared to other classes CW’s lacking greatly even though they usually have only one viable option to play with. I mean changing your rotation from ST to AOE doesn’t automatically make your build different. You’re still playing a build utilizing particular powers and particular effects in order to maximize damage, either yours or someone else’s, but it is still essentially a DPS/SUPPORT role, without really exceeding in any scenario.

    I don’t know, I do not feel as strongly about that as you do but I’m open to more discussion about those points if you so choose to do. I’m simply trying to see your point but I’m not seeing it clearly enough, which is why I’d ask you to explain it a bit better. But this time use scenario for each of the builds you’ve pointed out and explain just how viable those would be in such scenario cases.

    Like…make scenario and then tell me the rotation used, encounters and possibly feats *just the basics, I will understand if you say 15 Thaum or 15 Rene, I will know what you mean. I mean IF you want to do that, no worries if you do not. All in all thanks for trying I really appreciate that, truly.

    I'm not going to type all combinations, sorry, I will try to offer a variety of examples for this point. I'm sure you understand that I would have to write a novel size post to do that.

    There are a variety of artifact sets that are viable (and can even be BIS, in my opinion) depending on your party composition.

    There are too many different factors (from various compositions, and situations [boss fights, mobs, etc]) to list that help out each artifact set so just trust me here.

    There are also different sets of gear, loadouts, feat-specific allocations, enchantments, and mounts that can all be viable depending on what you are doing, and who you are doing it with. I will lump them all together just to show how crazy this really is...Again, trust me that there is a time and place for all this stuff. I don't have all this stuff btw. I am just showing how many things you need to be BIS in every single scenario. This is unrealistic, I know, I am just trying to show how versatile our class is without typing a novel.

    I am not some all knowing guru of the CW, so please don't think I am trying to say that. I might make some mistakes here and I might forget some stuff. Also, seriously, I don't know everything, not even close to that. I'm not trying to make that point whatsoever...

    A truly "BIS" CW will have all of this, in my opinion:

    Artifact Sets:
    1.) INT set
    2.) Demo Set
    3.) MW set
    4.) Debuff set (can't remember the name)
    5.) Valhalla set (PvP only)

    Note: I want to try my Atropal set for soloing Epic Dungeons. Has anyone tried this? Is it good?

    Active Artifacts:
    6.) All the debuffing artifacts (not going to list them all) + that one which buffs the team.
    7.) Soul Sight Crystal
    8.) Decanter
    9.) Wheel
    10.) Tome

    I am sure I am forgetting something, but moving on...

    Weapon Enchantments:
    11.) Fey
    12.) Dread
    13.) Vorpal
    14.) Bronzewood
    15.) Plague
    16.) Frost

    Armor Enchantments:
    17.) Soul
    18.) Negation
    19.) Eclipse (PvP)
    20.) Elven

    Enchantments:
    21.) Full set of every tri-stat enchantments (for balancing/maximizing stat potential and goals when swapping gear)
    22.) Full set of the dual-stat enchantments (same reason)
    23.) Full defense set of Radiants
    24.) Full defense set of Black Ice + Assassin's Cov
    25.) Some important single stat enchantments to satisfy stat priorities when swapping gear.

    Gear:
    26.) Hags Rags
    27.) Barovian Chest (AOE non-CR)
    28.) Vistani Chest
    29.) Eyestalk (ST)
    30.) Jawrippers (AOE)
    31.) Enduring Boots
    32.) Earthtrollers (lol)
    33.) Slayer rings
    34.) Vistani ring
    35.) The different power helmets for different scenarios (decay/rex/guize)
    36.) % boost shirt
    For PvP, there are wayyy too many different combinations to list.

    Feats:
    37.) all the loadouts I said before + a SS Rene one (please, not going to list all combinations for all compositions)
    38.) Loadouts with/without Icy Veins (for running with another CW)
    39.) PvP (sooo many options)

    Mounts:
    40.) Swarm
    41.) Coastal Snail
    42.) T-Rex
    43.) Lion
    44.) Warhorse
    45.) PvP = pretty much all are viable, depending on your gear/stats.

    Jesus phew... that was tough to think of everything off the top of my head lol. I am SURE that I missed some things, but it is clear. There are sooooo many viable ways to build a CW, depending on what you are doing, and who you are doing it with.

    Also, I'm not saying that all that stuff is BIS. I am saying a true "BIS" CW will have all of that stuff to adapt perfectly in every single scenario (again not saying that it is realistic). However, the options are all there and are, at the very least, viable choices depending on...

    I mean IF you want to do that, no worries if you do not. All in all thanks for trying I really appreciate that, truly.

    I tried to do the best I could at exemplifying the existence of versatility in our specific class. Sorry, I don't want to delve into rotations and all that other stuff.
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User


    With those being said, who WOULDN’T be taking the OP in their party? Who would be STUPID not to take OP in their party? That’s the whole agenda about class imbalance. And is it fair that one class has so much usefulness to the point of practically being mandatory in PT compositions for the smoothest run?

    There are a lot of examples of compositions I could offer to counter this but just to list one.

    Tanky GF Tact + Recovery/Crit-based DO DC (since no hastening/AoW) Debuff/Buff + HR HDPS LS + MoF Opp HDPS (swapping loadouts for trash) + SW healer/support

    Do you think this group would work? I deliberately avoided x2 DC. I have a feeling this group would do just fine in most of the content in the game, maybe even CR. I am happy to try this comp out if anyone wants to test it with me. I can do the DO or MoF role.


    Whether you’re aware of it or not, you’re talking about things as if I play in a non-decent way. You’re just beating around the bush, what is “the decent way” to play? I’d really like you to answer this without being so vague. I am talking specific here, you’re constantly bringing in vagueness. What would constitute “decent playing” for you? Going with the Op/Dc meta flow? Yeah, no, for me that’s not decent, that’s cancerous.

    I am not going to comment on how you play specifically, I have never played with you. If you are having trouble finding groups then maybe you have some learning to do, maybe not.

    However, "decent playing" (to me) is understanding all the classes in Neverwinter and finding ways to make your toon contribute significantly to different compositions and content.
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited August 2018



    Elitist players can go play in the sand since they’re not satisfied with anything, apparently. Or find a better, more challenging game, without trying to ruin fun for everyone else who’s not playing the way they feel or consider to be “the one true way to play the game lest it’s not a game anymore”.

    Not everyone want to play with micromanagement, this is a point of fact for anyone playing NOW. And you’re not really proving anything by demanding a more challenging content when there are pressing matters revolving the foundation upon the “easy end-game content” is built upon.

    And furthermore, at least try to acknowledge the point of fact I provided regarding the introduction of the potential cards managing just how hard particular dungeon can be. Can we go back to that or are we going to simply consider what 5-6 people altogether think about how one game should look like? I don’t and I do not believe that everyone single person should start ACTing in order to play Neverwinter Online. That defeats the purpose of fun for people as FUN is highly personal, individual and subjective.

    I am not an elitist. I include all players. I also don't think that I should be classified as some leading expert, driving the direction of Neverwinter. I have never said that, and never will.

    Additionally, you don't have to enjoy (or engage in) micromanagement to play Neverwinter. There is one dungeon CR that remotely calls for a bit of micromanagement. Even that dungeon, with skilled players, doesn't take much of that. Players that do enjoy playing this way, might want to have some content that challenges them and rewards them accordingly.

    I will acknowledge your card idea, I don't think it is a horrible idea. However, the rewards better be actually significant, not silly like the ones in the hunts. There should be some items that are only obtainable by a small population of Neverwinter (without buying them off the AH). That is good in my opinion. It gives players motivation for progress their character(s) and provides a significant goal/reward system for players to engage with.

    Also, please acknowledge this side of my argument. I am not saying that all, most, or even a decent portion of Neverwinter should be so challenging that it requires:

    -Extensive Micromanaging
    -Meta Play
    -Optimization
    -No scroll use
    -Minimum 2+ hours
    -Some wiping
    -Nearly perfect DPS
    -Nearly perfect Support

    AND offers specific rewards that cannot be obtained anywhere else, besides the AH.

    Currently, NONE of Neverwinter's content is like this. Myself, and possibly others, would greatly appreciate even just one or two pieces of content that matches this description, per module release. This would not harm other players, there is TONS of content for all the other levels of progress/investment in Neverwinter's current state. That is something I have to say the developers have done an EXCELLENT job of.

    Again, I'm not saying all content should be like this, not even a majority or decent amount. I'm saying it would be nice to have AT LEAST ONE piece of content like this.
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited August 2018


    But you already took the stance that it’s TOO EASY and boring, so what you have to lose? What do you want to prove? That you’re an amazing player and that Cryptic should provide you the nigh unbeatable content that only you and some other people can beat? Yeah, well guess what – that’s what essentially ELITISM is.

    I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not saying that I am amazing either. I am not. No, what I have said is not elitism. Elitism is about forming a collective, and feeling like that group of "elites" should run the show, excluding everyone else. There is tons of challenging content in Neverwinter for all levels, except the players who have invested the most. That has nothing to do with elitism.


    No, that’s another defeatism concept. It is again something which creates disparity among people and starts people to pursue all the bad examples of how things should be done. There is always a learning curve in this game and I can’t simply turn my back to people who are less familiar with the game. I do not find pleasure in such behavior nor consider it very humane to say the least.

    That isn't defeatism. Also, just to clarify, self-interest is not always a negative concept. As I said, there are different forms of self-interest. Please don't make us go off topic into that. Trust me, self-interest can be a positive attribute of human nature also. I am just trying to say that if the developers were to nerf/buff some things, players would study the new environment, recreate a new "meta" to follow, and share it with others. Then LFGs would have a new set of "LFM [some specific, new (correct or not) ideal]". Come on, that isn't defeatism. It is just the reality of human nature adjusting to/forming a social environment.


    And you’re just basically complaining that I’m even writing on forum and just basically telling me to stop because it won’t change anything because any change will make things worse, but instead you want to further complain how the content is easy and should be made to make you feel good by providing superiorly hard content which in turn would also create bad outcome, but in that case scenario you don’t really care, no? Which is a sentiment I can’t follow nor appreciate since it’s highly defeatist, yet elitist in its nature. And as such it’s contradictory to itself since you are stating

    That is not what I am saying. Writing on the forums can certainly change some things, but answer me this...



    Is there any (set of) concrete nerf(s) or buff(s) that Cryptic developers can actually implement to make LFG chats look like this;

    "LFM anybody for [whatever is the hardest content in the game at the time]"

    without making Neverwinter trivial?



    I don't think that there is a single way to answer "yes" to that question, without it being wrong.

    I am not a defeatist, or an elitist.

    I am only saying that people are experiencing these stigmas (and therefore exclusions) due to the players, not the Cryptic developers.
  • iimrmonkeyii#3625 iimrmonkeyii Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    I forgot to tag you @c1k4ml3kc3 .

    Also, I forgot to include companions to the variety of CW viability.

    I also had to fix a lot of the quoting. I don't know how I messed it up, but it seems I'm not quoting myself + another person correctly. I had to omit myself from the quotes. If anyone wants more context, scroll up to see what C1k was replying to.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    The length of these posts is eye-crossing! I may as well throw another log on the fire! (a lot of points to touch on, gonna break this up for better readability)

    Ok, so first, civility. Passions are running high, I get it. There are a couple topics I get so fed up with, I almost just want to see the forums burn, but then everyone loses (Micky knows what I'm talking about ;) ). c1k4, I don't think you mean to, but you are coming across a little bit on the vicious side here. You mentioned in your last post (and in the past iirc) that that's just how people you know discuss things normally, but it makes it harder to sympathize with your positions on here. I'm saying this as someone who mostly agrees with you.

    On the topic of "The Sharpedge!" ( :tongue: ), I don't know him at all and don't really agree with much of what he's posted here. However, most of what is publicly known about the inner workings of the CW class is because of him, and for that reason he deserves to be argued with respectfully, certainly moreso than most. (On a side note, he never pulled rank or threw that up as a shield, which is also deserves a nod IMO.)

    ---

    Party composition imbalance:

    I adamantly believe that the current, imbalanced 4-support meta is unhealthy and destructive to the game. It's a complete reverse of what people actually WANT to play. However, I can't agree with getting rid of the need for the tank and healer roles altogether. There ARE people who really like to play those roles too, and if you make the content not need them, then that throws them out to the wolves instead. That's not right. We have been there before, and that situation was sad then, just like the reverse of that situation is today. I've realized that there are a lot of hard feelings on both sides, so much so that those who currently feel disenfranchised, along with those who used to, easily allow their reactions to be clouded by fear, smugness, or vindictiveness. It's understandable, but is unhealthy and prevents productive discussion and productive ideas.

    Sometimes I struggle with my own advice.

    ---

    Content imbalance:

    To directly address content imbalance itself, I can see absolutely no downside to having a normal version of the epic content, at all. (or cards or whatever form it takes.) It is ALL WIN. I find it hard to understand any disagreement over that. (This is where I have to get a little nasty) It feels like pure egotistical gatekeeping. OBVIOUSLY normal versions would have reduced rewards, so if you want the cutting edge stuff, you still need to do the 'Big Boy version'. You do the T3 version, you get the T3 rewards, you do the T2 version you get the T2 rewards. Simple. Then the other 95+% of the playerbase can still have a shot at enjoying the content the designers have created. Meanwhile, we can also learn how to do the stuff in a more accessible, lower-stress environment so that more of us may be able to competently move up to the tougher versions, even if we don't have 17k+ IL and/or a mile-long friends list to mooch off of.

    Also, Svardborg is a bad example. AFAIK, the only real difference between the normal and master versions of that raid is that in normal you can run right back into the meatgrinder after getting squished. Everything else is still just as hard. Demogorgon is a MUCH better example. Mechanics are identical, but the overall difficulty for normal is just dialed back a bit. It made it a great training ground for people who wanted to do the master version. That said, there was a bit of a reward imbalance. I'd say the rewards for the normal version were generally too good, so much so that if you already had the Twisted Weapons or didn't want them, there was no point in doing the master version, ever. There is currently no point in doing the master version, ever. That was the only mistake, otherwise the whole thing was 'Gold' (pun intended ;) ).
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Wanting harder content vs. easier content:

    Many players, including myself, don't want content to be so hard. Some others want content that is MUCH harder. This seems irreconcilable, but I think if you look deeper there are common threads that have been mentioned many times. The problem isn't the content (usually), the problem is the vast difference in power levels between mid-geared non-meta groups vs. high-geared ultra-optimized groups.

    4 things play into this, in descending order of importance:

    1 & 2. Massive buff multiplying and stat-sharing: These can make ultra-coordinated buffs increase damage output by upwards of 20-30 TIMES. It makes everything boringly easy for people who master it and makes the dungeon designers weep. Also, no one can look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me 500,000 Power is perfectly ok.

    3. Linear stat curves: This generally translates into someone with 50% higher IL being ~50% more powerful (minus Utility padding). On its face it doesn't seem like it should be a problem, but it really is. Prior to Mod 6, the difference between BIS and mid-geared was there, but not overwhelming like it is today. At the upper end, it has also trivialized class features that increase Crit and ArPen. RIP Eye of the Storm!
    (I do understand this has an additional problem of eventually compressing stats too hard as the numbers grow larger, prompting a level increase, but the stat curves can be readjusted without having to raise the level cap.)

    4. Class, path, and style imbalances: This is excluding the support meta. This is about certain classes and builds being objectively superior or inferior to one another. This is obviously less than good, but I fear it's impossible to adequately address these problems while the above problems are still in place.

    These are all things that can be addressed that would dramatically decrease the apparent disparity between stupidly easy and impossibly difficult content. Totally replacing stat-sharing and moving to additive buffs could reduce the optimized party comp to being 2-3x as effective instead of being 20-30x or more. Non-linear stat curves could help reduce the vast disparity between mid-geared and high-geared characters as well. Class balancing then could be done much more effectively once everything isn't so damn swingy. All of these things would make the current content impossible to sleep-walk through for the uber-optimizers, but wouldn't be so outrageously *more* difficult for everyone else either.

    It is also possible that if these changes were made that the dungeons might become too much (or take far longer than the devs would like), but if so, simply reducing boss HP some should be enough to balance it back out.


    ---

    Perspective:

    Another point I'd like to address is one of perspective, namely the perspective of the BIS folks surrounded by friends that can't wait to play with them. When you tell people with a problem that there is no problem or that *they* are the problem, even if you truly believe that, it comes across as out of touch, spoiled, trolling, or even full-blown gaslighting. I think a lot of you probably do mean well, but it comes across really badly. People are *actually* having problems. People are frustrated, not everyone is BIS, not everyone likes to play the "game engine" instead of playing the game (and that doesn't mean they're having bad-wrong-fun and deserve to be excluded), and not everyone has (or wants to build) a mile-long friends list to mooch off of (and that doesn't mean they shouldn't play an MMO).

    Specifically, it would be much more helpful to try and approach things from the perspective of the 13k-14k player in a small guild and not just from the GH 20 17k+ player perspective.

    When you have several maxed out characters (namely support characters these days) and are surrounded by friends and hangers-on all the time, it's hard to imagine other people don't have that too (or can't get it easily). I think this is particularly a problem for Guild leaders/high-ups and "famous" players. It's not your fault though. It's called being "insulated", and something I know well from playing music. When everyone thinks you're great and wants to be around you, be seen with you, or just suck up to you all the time, you begin to think that's totally normal. It's not, and it can cause you to lose perspective, sometimes destructively so. It can especially make it difficult to empathize with people that don't have that. Even when you hold your nose and mix with the commoners (AKA pugging), you still know that you can go back to you crystal tower at the snap of your fingers. It's like a rich person visiting a ghetto or a trailer park and saying "Oh, I know what it's like to be poor now!" No, you don't.

    And of course some people are just dicks that like to lord their awesomeness over everyone else and pull the ladder up behind them.

    ---

    This is all a lot more than I intended to write. Generally, the more I talk about this kinda stuff (and other things that really bother me), the less I feel like even playing the game at all. Between pessimism about the chances of any of this stuff being meaningfully improved and people constantly telling those with complaints that the only problem is them, it's really disheartening and demotivating.

    Since T3 dungeons and PvP are both pretty much off the table for the foreseeable future, now I'm off to figure out if I want to slog a 5th character through mods 10-14 or spend the next couple months playing a different game until mod 15...
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Well since you choose to summon me there.
    pterias said:

    c1k4, I don't think you mean to, but you are coming across a little bit on the vicious side here. You mentioned in your last post (and in the past iirc) that that's just how people you know discuss things normally, but it makes it harder to sympathize with your positions on here. I'm saying this as someone who mostly agrees with you.

    Normative people do not discuss things in this manner.
    pterias said:


    On the topic of "The Sharpedge!" ( :tongue: ), I don't know him at all and don't really agree with much of what he's posted here. However, most of what is publicly known about the inner workings of the CW class is because of him, and for that reason he deserves to be argued with respectfully, certainly moreso than most. (On a side note, he never pulled rank or threw that up as a shield, which is also deserves a nod IMO.)

    I would say that ideally everyone deserves to be argued with respectfully, until they prove not worthy of that respect.
    I guess that in practice we can get the 'not worthy clause' by the history.
    pterias said:


    Party composition imbalance:

    I adamantly believe that the current, imbalanced 4-support meta is unhealthy and destructive to the game. It's a complete reverse of what people actually WANT to play. However, I can't agree with getting rid of the need for the tank and healer roles altogether. There ARE people who really like to play those roles too, and if you make the content not need them, then that throws them out to the wolves instead. That's not right. We have been there before, and that situation was sad then, just like the reverse of that situation is today.

    Actually the situation was far worse at times. Today is not all roses and sunshine, but a party can have 1-3 interchangeable DPSs, run and succeed, this is was far from the case at various points in the game evolution.
    pterias said:


    I've realized that there are a lot of hard feelings on both sides, so much so that those who currently feel disenfranchised, along with those who used to, easily allow their reactions to be clouded by fear, smugness, or vindictiveness. It's understandable, but is unhealthy and prevents productive discussion and productive ideas.

    No, I assure you that hefty amount of the word count in the thread is driven by self interest and not any wide outlook or game health in mind. You think it is so from the other side of your opinion, and pointed at it in the other post. I will address your point there. But if you want to look at it objectively, forget your own position or game play, and consider the requests and the rhetorics, and then add the motivation.
    pterias said:


    Content imbalance:
    To directly address content imbalance itself, I can see absolutely no downside to having a normal version of the epic content, at all. (or cards or whatever form it takes.) It is ALL WIN. I find it hard to understand any disagreement over that. (This is where I have to get a little nasty) It feels like pure egotistical gatekeeping. OBVIOUSLY normal versions would have reduced rewards, so if you want the cutting edge stuff, you still need to do the 'Big Boy version'. You do the T3 version, you get the T3 rewards, you do the T2 version you get the T2 rewards. Simple.

    While I want to stress that I'm personally not against multi-tier content, and more so, In some cases it is surprising that there where not 'training' versions like for the cradle mechanics, the multi tierging is not easy to do right, and it has some downsides.
    Usually the main thing will be faster multiple runs of the easier content over 1 run of the harder version. Look what happened in IG where no one wants to run gold.
    Indeed specific rewards will solve that, but MMO rely on repeated runs and grind, once the specific reward achieved there is an issue, so where to put the UES? Both at different percent? Put "make it harder and get 2% higher chance for UES" for example?
    Good, but somehow I doubt Cryptic can do it.

    Or want to:
    MMOs and more so, the f2p model should encourage you to strifestrive (damn spellchecker) somewhere, if you can see and always do all the content because it has an easy version, what is the motivation for getting higher gear, improving the build, unlocking boons, etc..
    When you argue against "Not every content should be available to everyone", then this means that we can always find some less geared player that the content should be adapted towards. So why to grind, and more importantly why to buy ZEN to shorten the grind?
    pterias said:


    Then the other 95+% of the playerbase can still have a shot at enjoying the content the designers have created. Meanwhile, we can also learn how to do the stuff in a more accessible, lower-stress environment so that more of us may be able to competently move up to the tougher versions, even if we don't have 17k+ IL and/or a mile-long friends list to mooch off of.

    Is this one of those 90% of all statistics on the internet is made up?
    Because all I see is people either not running dungeons because that's not their thing, or running tomb. You attribute the 95% of the player base to some incapable, poor tier of players that can't run content. While Cryptic has the actual numbers, and we can argue about this to end of time, I believe you should revise that.
    pterias said:


    Also, Svardborg is a bad example. AFAIK, the only real difference between the normal and master versions of that raid is that in normal you can run right back into the meatgrinder after getting squished. Everything else is still just as hard. Demogorgon is a MUCH better example. Mechanics are identical, but the overall difficulty for normal is just dialed back a bit. It made it a great training ground for people who wanted to do the master version. That said, there was a bit of a reward imbalance. I'd say the rewards for the normal version were generally too good, so much so that if you already had the Twisted Weapons or didn't want them, there was no point in doing the master version, ever. There is currently no point in doing the master version, ever. That was the only mistake, otherwise the whole thing was 'Gold' (pun intended ;) ).

    MSVA had the legendary marks for the weapons, but yes, demogorgon is one of the better examples (and only) for more or less successful tiered content they've made, and as I've brought up (and you mentioned), still suffers from issues.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    blur#5900 said:

    @c1k4ml3kc3 It would be so much easier for you and players you play with if you actually learned how the stuff works.

    I'm sorry. I do not know how this game works.

    Oh, wait...I do!

    Oh, wait, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.



    I suggest..........reading it. The topic, that is. All of it. Perhaps. Otherwise you're just calling for unnecessary conflict when you tell me that I do not how to play the game.

    Theb est thing is that you're saying my friends do not know how to play, either. The nerve you've got lol

    You're a 100% completely and absolutely wrong, both in what you propose and what you ASSUME.

    I won't tolerate it in the future fyi and will report it for provocation and unnecessary trolling.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited August 2018


    I'm sorry. I do not know how this game works.

    Judging by multiple previous posts about the game mechanics, this is quite true.


    Oh, wait...I do!

    Still waiting, still do not.


    Oh, wait, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Still waiting, but neither does yours. Stop derailing the thread please.



    How many wipes ? Or did the actual DPS went negative? Or you took the blood curse and only did that damage (which is low for solo dps) ?

    Here is your statement from the first post in this thread:


    The dungeons I did not beat nor play are :

    - Spellplague Caverns
    - Tomb of the Nine Gods
    - Cradle of the Death God
    - Castle Ravenloft

    And neither did my friends nor family.

    So either you "went from zero to hero" (idiom) in a week, or you are itsy bitsy bending the truth there.


    I suggest..........reading it. The topic, that is. All of it. Perhaps. Otherwise you're just calling for unnecessary conflict when you tell me that I do not how to play the game.

    Theb est thing is that you're saying my friends do not know how to play, either. The nerve you've got lol

    You're a 100% completely and absolutely wrong, both in what you propose and what you ASSUME.

    Your multiple posts on the game mechanics, class synergy and other topics prove that he is right. This is not shameful, well, actually, overstating self ability instead of trying to improve is shameful, but not knowing or not being good at a game is a nothing wrong. And there are many concerns brought up how to make the game more playable for people who do not have the time to details of the game mechanics, or do not have the skills as many of the older players, do not have the reflexes or coordination for example to handle well push pull mechanics. (Though reading a guide take less time than reading some of the posts here)
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited August 2018


    The dungeons I did not beat nor play are :

    - Spellplague Caverns
    - Tomb of the Nine Gods
    - Cradle of the Death God
    - Castle Ravenloft

    And neither did my friends nor family.

    Erm....


    That was fast....may i ask how long did it take to clear?

  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User



    I won't tolerate it in the future fyi and will report it for provocation and unnecessary trolling.

    All i wanted was to help you and this is how you repay me?
    Read the CW guide.
    The sooner you accept the possibility that you are doing something wrong the sooner you can start improving. As long as you dont see flaws in your play style you will remain stuck.
    Godspeed.
    image
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Ok, since it seems to be the trend in this thread to write long walls of text to give your thoughts on the topic, I will respond in kind, starting off with the OP’s initial post:


    The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No.

    We have already shown it is not the case and that you do not need a group full of supports, although it does make the run faster. You also do not *have* to play MoF Oppressor to be useful, although it is optimal.


    This FORCED EPIC DUNGEON charade started at MOD6, the worst module this game and playerbase ever experienced, and still persists no matter how many nerfs were given to the support classes in the process. It is obvious that it does not work for everyone as people already have the problem of investing a lot of time to beat one dungeon, also to mention occasional disconnects, lags and tendency to get completely wiped out due to how hard the mobs attack in EPIC DUNGEONS.

    It is certainly better then module 5, where everyone could solo everything. I remember lfg being as exclusive back then then now, even though the game was much, much easier. The queues still insisted on a specific composition and back then it was more in favour of 1 class (CW) then many different classes. Mod 4 balance notes.


    This FORCED EPIC DUNGEON charade started at MOD6, the worst module this game and playerbase ever experienced, and still persists no matter how many nerfs were given to the support classes in the process. It is obvious that it does not work for everyone as people already have the problem of investing a lot of time to beat one dungeon, also to mention occasional disconnects, lags and tendency to get completely wiped out due to how hard the mobs attack in EPIC DUNGEONS.
    And as the biggest letdown for me is the inability to play with people I like because of how similar or different our classes are. If I am forced to play a class I do not enjoy just in order to beat the content that is inevitably called - WORKING THE CONTENT. I do not want my FUN TIME to turn into WORK TIME. I do not want to play as a class I do not enjoy playing. Yet, the META demands that and has been demanding it for a long time now.
    Given the very positive changes in the recent times with MOD 13 and MOD 14 I was sincerely hoping that the "Bring your own support" method will die out, but it obviously did not as the dungeon runs simply demand having a tank which is a very hard thing to come by.
    I can't play without a TANK role. Without a TANK I would need around 500 Scrolls of Mass Life so that I and my friends play as roles we actually enjoy playing, which would make us like the game more, which would make us actually invest money in the things we enjoy logically.
    My point is, you've tried too hard since MOD 6 to make people "realize" that tank role is a must, but it looks to me that it outlasted its usefulness and people are getting tired of tank roles altogether. Why force this onto playerbase I do not understand? Why does an EPIC dungeon needs to be that hard so that people can't defeat it without a tank?

    Even assuming there were no dungeon requirements at all, (so no 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps) taking at least 1 or even 2 supports should still be optimal. If it is not optimal, people making meta groups for whatever the new meta is, will automatically ignore taking tanks and healers because it is no longer optimal and support roles players will be excluded entirely.


    If you are already making RESTORING weapons whose biggest benefits are only in Barovia area, which I think is a very cheap way to prolong the content BTW, why do they have to be dropped only after Count is defeated in an Epic Dungeon? This weapon becomes extremely class restrictive that way.

    Do I want weapon that much to trouble others into babysitting me through the dungeon, taking their time and patience? No, I do not want the weapon that much, especially since after all that effort of

    - Finding team
    - Getting the dungeon done
    - Beating the Count

    I have to actually restore the weapons which, wonder oh wonder, have a weekly cap into restoring?

    The consensus from all my friends and family members as well as guildies is that it is NOT WORTH IT. I wrote about this in the support for the preview. Making this DUNGEON-only content for the newest weapon makes it a horrible, horrible experience since the playerbase is already divided and forced to play support classes which they do not like or prefer just in order to beat the content. That makes it a job more than a game. It even says A JOB in the queue I think. Jesus Christ!

    Thank you, but do not do this anymore as there are classes which are not welcome in the Epic Dungeon queue. Dear developers I URGE YOU to make a SURVEY asking people about how many people actually play the dungeons as their favorite class or whether they are forced into waiting for a DC + OP combo in order to play the game.

    This is not diversity, this is exclusivity.

    So to sum it up : MOD 14 :
    For HUNTS the biggest B R A V O!
    For Epic Dungeon, the biggest letdown!

    It is both diversity and exclusivity. It is a diversity of content (having content for different player types) and by having a diverse range of content, it automatically means that some content will be exclusive. See my link about the Bartle test. Where is the content for “low tier” (Reference 1 Elitism) players you ask? Well, that is the campaign zones and hunts. For me, that content might as well not exist. I absolutely loathed the hunt system prior to mod 14 and even in mod 14, despite what you might say about it being great, for me it is only tolerable. It is not in any way my definition of fun team content. Mid tier content would be the older dungeons that gradually become accessible due to better gear becoming more readily available and end game content would be the new dungeon.

    Campaigns are not a necessary function for this MMO at all, they could have a module without a campaign structure at all, where all development resources went into 4-5 dungeons and you gained your boons and gear through running them. Instead of this, they choose to have campaigns, so ask yourself, who are they designed for? It is a fact that everyone is different and has different likes and dislikes, so it makes sense to design different types of content to cater to different desires.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    Is this still going on?

    On an strange side, i can understand @c1k4ml3kc3 being not happy with his CW and the playstyle he is personally preferring, i can really.
    But on the other hand, some people gaves you some suggestions, be it guides and so on, so my advice is, spend together with your wife a little time on the preview and test some of the builds, maybe you'll find an loadout that fits your playstyle and improves your char.

    I am saying this, bc if i am thinking back nowadays how often i was ranting about my Tr, and how bad he was performing (you could say i was [am] an prototype of an high geared but bad played Tr)..
    And please took the buff from SoD in Mod 14 aside...for me it was the knowledgesharing on the Tr discord, you can believe me, how often i was sitting in front of my Monitor reading things when people are discussing the perfect rotation.
    And then i was thinking so often by myself: "I am such an Idiot, that i have overseen this, or not using it." up to an point i was going to grab an piece of wood and banging it against my head...

    And sorry, as a little sidenote, it wasn't alone some Trs with the knowledgesharing it was and still is people like @thefabricant or @rjc9000 spending alot of time testing stuff out for us, even if they don't play an Tr active.
    This is about your shoot against sharp and your comment "You do nothing for the commmunity", really sorry but on this point i have to "shoot" back, bc i apprecciate the work from them, for people like me, not having the time, insight or knowledge to test these things out by myself.

    Next thing on my wall of text, would be this "Why are some Builds better and why is my preferred build underperforming."

    This is something i am thinking, if iam reading posts like:" My Archer Hr/Sw/Cw....ranged Tr is underperforming, but i like to attack from an safe distance, but then i am missing all the sweet buffs...unfair!!!"

    Then this two words: "safe distance" is irritating me, why should someone dish out the same dps being far far away and sitting on an spot, without being attacked from adds or aoe attacks from the boss, meanwhile the melee classes like dps Gf, Gwf, Tr, Combat/Trapper Hr, melee played Sw/Cw, have to deal not only to bring on the perfect rotation and have to take patience to avoid attacks at the same time.
    So for me it is simple, higher risk -> higher dps output, lower risk-> lower dps output.


    Aaaand next thing:

    These "How to make everyone happy with the actual content, bc the High Geared/Skilled players are to fast bored, meanwhile the Rest can't even handle soemthing like CN or FBI..."

    If the devs would bring stuff in the game like the Tarokka Cards for every Dungeon to "spice it up", this could be an solution.
    It would be interesting to see, if an party could made even something like Malabogs Castle harder then actually Ravenloft.
    Or bring on CR to an point that it would be an complete "Nightmare Modus", that even the skilled players have to deal with it (without using scrolls) for an couple of hours.

    But than it is my question: "How could you reward these players?"

    Titles like "Strahds Nightmare" for CR, "Best Babysitter" for Cradle..stuff like that?

    Superuber Gear, only viable in such "Nightmare Modus"?

    Couldn't be the solution, bc such players will be then more dominating the normal content, running stuff even more faster than now, and having also more chances to farm still stuff like UE's or even some rare loot.

    Personally i would apprecciate something in further mods, to "spice" up some content, just to test out if the people could handle it, but as i said, the rewards should be really balanced.
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User

    We have already shown it is not the case and that you do not need a group full of supports, although it does make the run faster. You also do not *have* to play MoF Oppressor to be useful, although it is optimal.

    Again this overused and pointless argument that people do not need support characters... Jesus...

    I’m sorry, I do not know who are you trying to LIE TO that you do not need supports in beating Epic Dungeon content as the LFG and META itself are demanding it. Perhaps you and I aren’t playing the same game and you’re purposefully trying to somehow hide the fact that LFG channels are filled with

    “LF2M OP DEVO/PROT DC AC”

    If it makes the run faster, it is the META. Not only does it make faster, it makes it way faster and this is the main issue going on and this is the main topic being led on. The point of the topic is not you to come and tell “hey, you can beat it if you’re a good player”, the point is that powersharing in connection to buffs/debuffs are pulling all the strings on everything and this is the only thing that matters far and wide.

    If you already acknowledge it there is no point to talk about it at all, we understand it as well as the birds on the tree branches. let us NOT pretend like it isn't the case in the current game and meta.

    I do not want either you or me bringing up this void argument anymore as the amount of people not playing the meta builds is significantly low to the point where they can’t even be considered a part of the statistic. We can PUT THIS BEHIND in any further discussion in the topic as it only takes time and doesn't make any significant argument. You are trying to skip the actual point based on what I used in a conversational tone, i.e. colloquialism. If I say "Everyone and their grandma's asking for support characters" I do not really mean that 100% of people playing NWO are doing that, but the vast majority is and this should be fairly obvious, so grabbing onto thin grass leaves in order to find some sort of error in what I talk about won't suddenly make LFG to stop asking for support characters. So let's point to the real problem which doesn't befall the conversational tone i.e the way I write colloquially as I consider all of us at least smart enough to follow the discussion about the idea rather than who wrote what and when. I already have a bunch of people here giving themselves liberty to take things out of context and write outright lies about what I've written which is something that I've to deal later, so at least bear with me with what I've written if you already want to start a discussion. You'd find it far more manageable and pleasant if we can offer some form of civility without holding onto insignificant details, unless you really believe that LFGs aren't filled with people asking for supports in which case I can say that you're ignorant on the matters and ask you to get more info so that you may give your opinion on the matters. I do not think that you are ignorant on that matters, but since you're not really taking this point nor acknowledging it to any effect I can say that you're not really interested in it.

    I won’t be paying the attention to anything besides what the topic is devised to be taken into the account, so people telling me that I do not know how to play do not have anything to add to the discussion. I find it to be rude not only to skip reading but also to assume what's written. Since you already want to acknowledge and enter the discussion, I welcome you, but let's keep things straight without trying to find each-other's mistakes and pointing out that a premade party can beat some content - ergo it's easy, this is not the case and we're talking about what the majority of people are experiencing.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    So to continue - you may say “you’re not obliged to” but in truth anyone from LFG will leave or ask to be kicked out in order to avoid the penalty for leaving/abandoning the instance.

    And this is the only truth that there is about the current meta and just how cancerous it is.

    Not only did I spend entire day yesterday in various LFG chats and private channels trying to find SUPPORT players, but I had few of them leave from CODG because one guy who came there for the first time was unfortunate enough to get the skull on his back and he wasn’t aware of what to do. For me this isn’t a big deal at all, I do not care, I know that there are people who need to learn and get some experience, nobody’s born knowledgeable and it’s wonderful to help people like that. This is something I firmly believe and abide by and I’ve helped over 200-300 people directly with their quests, equipment and whatnot in my timespan of years playing this game, from small to big quests etc.
    YET, I’ve had a 18K DC demanding to be kicked out of CODG because this one guy didn’t finish one skull and didn’t know to throw/lead it to the boss. And one OP quickly followed the same. They were demanding to leave! They were opposing the rest of eight people just because one skull was not pulled.

    This is the current state of the game and LFG channel itself. The philosophy you yourself stick by “That everything should be done as quickly as possible” is what also influences people to leave the game as soon as a single mistake is being made by someone as people do not want to waste time and want to earn things as fast as possible.

    Absolutely and thoroughly cancerous, vitriolic and downright faulty environment for playing any Epic Dungeon/Skirmish/Trial content, whatsoever. Not only do we SORELY need that OP and DC to play with us in order to have better chances at beating the content, more so due to the inexperience of some people, but they are without any sympathy or are showing any sort of willingness to help.

    And, of course, CODG wasn’t done because we’ve got a person saying “we can’t do it, it’s a waste of time”.

    Collect 10 people, collect 2xDC/2xOP. When can I hope to play this unless I specifically find specific people to specifically play CODG. It’s hard to find 5 people for regular content, let alone 10. One leaves, you can end up waiting hours to have another one.

    And this, dear Sharpedge, needs to change and needs to change in a positive manner since it’s producing nothing but remorse, spite and vitriol in the community.

    Depending upon OP/DC to that effect is rigorously stupid and shouldn’t be forced upon people. People should be able to do the content in an EQUAL manner with or without OP/DC combo because we do not need ultimatums being thrown at us by support characters who do not allow a single mistake, lest they leave and you can kiss say goodbye to beating anything.

    And, yes, it is a horrible mental experience, too. It discourages people from playing altogether.

    So I really, really, really hope that you can understand this. If you can’t then we have nothing else to discuss about and you may continue with your statement that forums “lack intellectual discussions”.

    It is certainly better then module 5, where everyone could solo everything. I remember lfg being as exclusive back then then now, even though the game was much, much easier.

    No, it isn’t since now everyone’s a superman once they’ve got a papa OP and mama DC. And you already stated that things are too easy. No, you’re wrong and contradicting yourself once again.

    If anything it was easier finding a CW since everyone were playing them, but now you are obliged (and don’t tell me how you do not need them since we already all agree that it is the fastest way and at least 99% of all dungeons are beaten in this composition, I’m so very sick of people beating around the bush) to find a OP/DC in order to play something. And not only you need them, but basically you can’t find them, and even when you do find them, unless they’re an extremely NICE person, patient and good, you’re in bad luck as they’ll leave on first mistake someone may do. And GL finding another one. Unless you already got them in Friends list and unless you run in Private mode, no way finding a DC in Public. Or if you find they will leave unless you have a Temp.

    So, no, it is not better, people still demand specific classes with specific purposes and specific classes. THEY demand. This isn’t something arguable or not.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    meer#7108 said:

    If you're going to use damage numbers to prove that you know how to play your class, you should probably provide a more complete screenshot. That just shows you removed a billion hit-points from mobs/boss. That does not in any way portray your knowledge of game mechanics. Don't have anything personal against you, just pointing out.

    Next time I will flag your comment if it revolves around anything like that. In the first place I am not in any way, form or action obliged to point out that I know how to play. This is an assumption and a method to derail the topic without providing anything useful for the topic itself. The easiest thing is to say that someone doesn't know how to play the game.

    The picture itself provides just enough and is completely fine. If you have problem with it not providing any more useful info, that is okay, I do not care what you or someone else may think especially since you took time to write about that without actually providing anything useful for the TOPIC itself regarding the points we've made.

    In which case if you are just trying to point to the obvious you are completely wasting your time, in which case you've managed to finish far less than I did with what I posted with the picture itself.

    In that case, how is your comment, ty any extent, constructive, let alone point on the topic? It is spam.

    Next time if you post something like that I will be obliged to flag it for spam. Nothing personal, either. It's just not important to be in the topic.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    Your multiple posts on the game mechanics, class synergy and other topics prove that he is right. This is not shameful, well, actually, overstating self ability instead of trying to improve is shameful, but not knowing or not being good at a game is a nothing wrong. And there are many concerns brought up how to make the game more playable for people who do not have the time to details of the game mechanics, or do not have the skills as many of the older players, do not have the reflexes or coordination for example to handle well push pull mechanics. (Though reading a guide take less time than reading some of the posts here)

    Another example of providing absolutely nothing useful in the topic. Any future attempts to write and derail topic in this manner will be reported for obstructing the flow of the discussion, more so since people have pointed out the willingness to abide by civility and reason more than personal vendetta.

    If you have anything against me or consider me "a bad gamer", this is completely your right as it is my right to also report you for provoking and spamming in the topic, furthermore derailing the topic altogether whilst trying to find some form of problem with me.

    I can only say that you are completely wrong and leave it at that since nothing you provided here seems to apply either to me or anything I've written thus far, and seeing that you only bear malicious intent instead of trying to take on the points being discussed I can conclude that you've nothing to look for in the given topic and you should either take on the points being presented by me and others or find something more manageable to do, like playing the game "properly" the way you see fit.

    Do not allow yourself that my "lack of knowledge in playing the game" take your precious time of the day.

    Maybe when you stop thinking about ME you actually might see what the topic is all about. Point of fact, it isn't about me not being able to beat the content, it's about not being able to play with whatever party composition I want to take since the disparity among the party compositions is far too wide for it to be a logical choice and include some diversity.

    So unless you really want to prove a point I really suggest being careful in what you write as I won't tolerate personal attack anymore.

    Thank you for being considerate enough.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:



    I won't tolerate it in the future fyi and will report it for provocation and unnecessary trolling.

    All i wanted was to help you and this is how you repay me?
    Read the CW guide.
    The sooner you accept the possibility that you are doing something wrong the sooner you can start improving. As long as you dont see flaws in your play style you will remain stuck.
    Godspeed.
    You think too highly of yourself.

    Your help is completely misplaced and wasn't being asked for. Nor was the point of the topic. Nor things only depend upon me. You're simply using the chance to derail the topic further, providing full-fledged spam.

    You should read the topic first and if something is unclear you should ask me to explain it to you so that we may find a manageable solution.

    The way you came onto me was insulting and wasn't really civil, so you may not find yourself being treated with same respect EVEN though at this precise moment, you are being treated in a very civil manner although you do not deserve it due to three points :

    a) You do not know me nor know how I play
    b) You do not know my friends nor who they are nor how they play
    c) You did not take time to read and understand the topic, but you've given yourself the liberty to attack me (and my friends) by insulting us that we're some newbies and already concluded that that's the only problem whilst completely skipping over the ENTIRE discussion revolving around what the actual problem is in the terms of Party Composition.

    As such your comment is completely meaningless and completely void on all points. And, furthermore, you've also managed to insult both me and my friends.

    I honestly hope that this isn't the way you talk to other people, but if it is trust me that sort of trash talking can't happen with me.

    Stay healthy.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    talon1970 said:

    Is this still going on?

    On an strange side, i can understand @c1k4ml3kc3 being not happy with his CW

    Huh?

    Mr. Talon. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite people on the forum. This is not the case and you have made me to laugh a bit. I mean no disrespect, but how did you get that I'm not happy with my CW? :smiley:
    talon1970 said:

    and the playstyle he is personally preferring, i can really.
    But on the other hand, some people gaves you some suggestions, be it guides and so on, so my advice is, spend together with your wife a little time on the preview and test some of the builds, maybe you'll find an loadout that fits your playstyle and improves your char.

    The thing is, some people need to actually read what the topic is about and stop being rude assuming that the problem is my playstyle, especially after I've written so at least 3-4 times already.

    And as I've already provided some pics, I can beat Epic Dungeons just fine. This isn't the problem in either me, my playstyle, my CW or anything else. The problem is that some people here who can't contribute anything else but maliciousness are willing to pursue being oblique in what their purpose in the topic is. I'm a longtime player and things regarding the gameplay shouldn't even be a matter of question.

    If you or other people actually took time to read few lines, really just few lines, you'd quickly understand that it is about not being able to go to dungeons due to not being able to find particular classes in order to run. And particular classes are being far too picky. So it means that either I or my friends or family sacrifice our happiness and what we enjoy playing so that someone has to build and play with OP/DC combo at all times. And then take turns or similar just in order to be able to beat the content in a reasonable timespan of no more than 40 minutes altogether, even less than that.

    When people just come to say "read a build" and they think that they're helping me find a DC in LFG by saying that, they're wrong and I will flag that as spam.

    I hope that you can see logic in that. If not, then I really can't help.

    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    In the interests of making it easier for people to follow the argument thus far, I will summarize the main points made by the side proposing this and address them one by one.

    Argument 1: Content requires specific classes, and this is bad.
    Firstly, I did not state that do not need support characters, I stated that you do not need a party full of support classes (implying the majority of the party is support), so do not attempt to attack that strawman. However, you can extend it to all for all content below Tomb of the Nine which can be soloed by any class. Secondly, the word need implies necessity, in other words, there is no alternative. Even if it is not optimal and you may not want less than 2 supports, this is a want, not a necessity, hence no need.

    Thirdly, in the runs I linked above, in case you did not notice, I was the main dps, on CW and in almost every run I do on my CW I play the role of main dps (there has been a single run I have done where someone else had the opportunity in CR).

    In previous posts videos were provided showing that the majority support group is not necessary, countering the Ops point. The OP has failed to show how that it is impossible to do the content without the majority support group, thus rendering this point to my side of this debate.

    Argument 2: The “looking for group/player mentality argument.”

    <
    Perhaps you and I aren’t playing the same game and you’re purposefully trying to somehow hide the fact that LFG channels are filled with

    “LF2M OP DEVO/PROT DC AC”

    If it makes the run faster, it is the META. Not only does it make faster, it makes it way faster and this is the main issue going on and this is the main topic being led on. The point of the topic is not you to come and tell “hey, you can beat it if you’re a good player”, the point is that powersharing in connection to buffs/debuffs are pulling all the strings on everything and this is the only thing that matters far and wide.
    .

    I never denied that LFG was filled with that, but it was also filled with that in mod 5, only for the CW class, even when content was monumentally easier, and anyone could solo any dungeon. There is always a meta and resting your hopes and desires on lfg is a bad practice. It would like me going to the Cape Flats and then making the claim that the entire world is technologically underdeveloped because I am looking at 1 ecosystem. There are different circles of players, each with their own levels of skill and using the lowest common denominator as a way of evaluating content requirements or anything really is poor. It is self evident that at least half of the players fall in the lower 50% of the skill bracket, it sounds silly to even say it doesn’t it and asking for help in lfg is the equivalent of trusting the field athlete with surgery, you don’t know any of those players, how good or bad they are and have not made any connections with any of them. Your primary objective as a player should be to get out of the lfg ecosystem.

    In previous posts it was brought up that there will always be a fastest way to run stuff, there will always be a meta and the worst group of players that can complete this content (by nature, lfg) will always be forced to opt for it, because they are at the very bottom of the spectrum. The OP has still not addressed this matter adequately and has ignored the point that this issue can be circumnavigated entirely by joining a different ecosystem.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Argument 3: The anti-group requirements argument.

    The OP feels that enforced group roles should fall away and that all classes should be able to complete content, stating that its healthier for the game if content is less exclusive. My side of this debate countered this argument with the points that by removing enforced roles, it removes the need to have these roles in groups at all and players who play these roles will get excluded.

    I will expand my points in this area to include the fact that having many enforced roles is good for synergistic team gameplay. Having classes that perform naturally distinct, rather than homogenous functions, leads for more skilled group play as you need to be more aware of what other classes bring to the table. In contrast, if every class is more of the same, it is essentially like having 5 people playing solo, not working together to achieve a goal. Forcing players to work together is good for MMO longevity because it leads to players forming bonds, which in turn makes it less likely they leave the game simply because they play to keep in each other’s company.

    Even assuming there were no dungeon requirements at all, (so no 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps) taking at least 1 or even 2 supports should still be optimal. If it is not optimal, people making meta groups for whatever the new meta is, will automatically ignore taking tanks and healers because it is no longer optimal and support roles players will be excluded entirely.

    The requirements can be modified. You can switch the OP from prot to devo and allow either a Tank or Healer to come in. So there is no REAL dungeon requirement as the system is not really intuitive and if anything – it sucks. The support roles won’t be excluded if certain modifications are taken into the account. The Support roles should be there to make things EASIER, but not to make them mandatory in order to beat the content. I can survive just fine without DC buffing me to good heavens, but I can’t survive without a tank and it shouldn’t be like that. This needs to end as it serves no purpose to build anything DEFENSE on personal character, we can all play as Glass canons with a huge AoE defense and stick behind OP/GF taking all aggro. How is this “interesting”? You just stand in one place and run a rotation in order to do damage. No, not fun, not interesting, not nice, not pretty. No real danger as OP takes all that beating onto himself and heals everyone around, too.

    And you say content is easy? No, content is being MADE EASY once you take OP and DC into your party. And for other people that is the only way to play since they aren’t playing this oh so meticulously. And they shouldn’t in my opinion due to the way Cryptic changes some very intricate things once they become useful.

    So long as support roles are optimal for content, the lfg meta will require them (this ties into my points on argument 2). The OP has still not brought up any salient points to counter these arguments against the anti-group requirement, all his points having been countered by the ones brought up in my posts above.

    Argument 4: All content should be accessible to everyone.


    This is the OP’s weakest point overall, having been countered by many points on my side. First and foremost, because having hard and exclusive content caters towards players who want hard and exclusive content, which is important because not all players are the same or have the same interests. The OP then argues all content Is designed for all players, which I countered with my references to the Bartle Test. This is then strengthened by, what I feel is the strongest argument made on my side, by @asterotg on page 8.

    I will incorporate this into my Bartle Test argument, by arguing that the “5%” he refers to falls within the “Achiever” category (which, if we go with the statistics provided there is actually 10%). What is important about this group is that the majority (the 80%), the socializers, need people to socialize with. The Achievers have no interest in playing easy content and they are the most active group in the game, playing for much longer play periods then the other groups. By having them there, it provides people for the socializers to socialize with, which is for them, the games actual content. So, in effect, by removing that 10%’s desire to play, you remove the content for 80% of the players, which is not actually the game.


    This is a flawed logic.
    The campaigns aren’t made to be “for different people”. You’re assuming too much and trying to impose your opinion as a fact, which doesn’t work like that unfortunately.

    In order to understand the necessity for campaigns, their primary orientation is to progress through the storyline which tries to be following the WotC current promotional material. This is the primary goal of developers, too, and nearly all resources go into this. Campaigns are the first and most important content in the game where the most work is being done, including graphical, vocal and technical aspects that should be fitting to the theme of the current DnD module.

    A campaign is not necessary to guide players through the story, you can have story driven dungeons, for example a dungeon where you find the sunsword which is 60 minutes long and heavy on story, then another where you find the symbol and another where you find the book. World of Warcraft did story driven dungeons very well (at least back when I played it). The concept of campaigns is unrelated to story at all and is content that is very clearly orientated towards the solo player.

    You have still failed to show how there is not content aimed at different groups here, when it is blatantly obvious that the largest piece of content in a module is aimed at players who do not play in groups at all. By the same token, fishing and hunts are not aimed at all players, nor is PVP, or the Foundry.


    They know this and with each new mod the previous content becomes more accessible. The game is devised around CASUAL players first and foremost, as they are the greater majority. The game isn’t made for the elitists and speedrunners. That’s just a component that’s not important to anyone except to the elitists and speedruners themselves. The game and community should not suffer due to such people’s agenda to have better and harder content.

    And where does this argument end. Next solo players complain, “we want to see dungeons too and don’t want to do them in a group, we should be able to solo them.” Then what? Should they be so easy that everyone can solo them? No, the different groups should get content designed for them, to keep them all interested. More interested groups = more people actively playing = more content for the socializers.

    For these reasons and the multitude mentioned previously in the thread, this point falls my way.

    From these arguments I have outlined, we can conclude that this thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt by the OP to fulfill his agenda and make the game easy enough to be beat by anyone. Furthermore, under careful analysis, they do not hold up in relation to the counterarguments provided by my side as being healthy for the state of the game. For these reasons, this proposition should not be taken seriously.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @c1k4ml3kc3 First of all, we all know what the topic is, we are aware of it, you dont need to repeat it countless times and use it as counter argument that we dont know what topic is because this is false and will be flagged as spam in future. Once again, here, your own words of what the topic is:

    Point of fact, it isn't about me not being able to beat the content, it's about not being able to play with whatever party composition I want to take since the disparity among the party compositions is far too wide for it to be a logical choice and include some diversity.

    With topic as clear as a day we can move on.

    You are arguing and hating on the META. Meta will always exist, no matter what it is and you will probably keep having problem with it unless you are part of that meta. It is proven that content is beatable without meta and without power share IF you are good enough.
    I can understand that you lie to us but why do you lie to yourself? Every content is not designed to be available to everyone. Those under required IL cant even try it. Guess why? Because it is not designed for them.

    If the content was so easy for you to deal with it while at 13k IL, what are you going to do when you get to 18k IL? That same content that you are now able to solo? Or something that is hard enough for 18k's?
    I have nothing against difficulty scaling being added but still, all content wont be available for everyone, there would be no need for progress if you can do everything while barely geared.

    Devs acknowledged a problem with 2x DC in meta and tried to deal with it, failed and will probably try again, nothing against it. Nothing against 1 tank and 1 healer requirement for Random queues. Its false that you cannot do content with whatever party composition you want to take, it is possible, thats why the Private Queue is there. Random queue, as the name suggests, is random. You can meet all kinds of players, good ones, bad ones, you should expect that and prepare mentally for it.

    You think that OP and DC are uberclasses and once you have them in party its all good. Even if you had them in party you would fail if they dont know what they do. Knowing the class is the key.

    Cloaked Ascendancy the best campaign? Its the worst. Your opinion, my opinion, doesnt matter since its a matter of taste.
    "De gustibus non est disputandum."

    You made point that content is too hard. You know that a CW you discussed with soloed everything except trials, tomb and CR. How is that too hard? Another point of yours proven wrong (get tank or die). Where are the DC and OP to do all those majestic things you think they do? Simply git gud, whether you like it or not.
    No tank, no powershare, no buffs, no control and still soloed everything while being a CW.

    Meer pointed out that your Paingiver screenshot shows absolutely nothing and hes right. What do you want to flag him for?
    You dont understand how things work and we are desperately trying to explain you that but you are being like, what i imagine, a young girl with fingers in her ears yelling "LaLaLaLaLaLaLa" to whatever the others tell you. If you keep that attitude you will never learn and we will be forced to flag you for threats.
    It is completely disrespectful to treat people like that, threatening with flagging and saying that they provide absolutely nothing useful.

    It is nothing wrong with considering you a bad gamer. As talon said, we all, probably have been at the same spot and done things wrong and thats why we are trying to help you. We all made mistakes which, when we look back, make us look silly.

    I dont think too highly of myself and i treat you as respectfully as all others. Telling you that your play style might be bad/wrong is not an insult, just pointing out that you might be doing something wrong and that you could improve a lot. Do you want to improve?

    You only made one good point in all this discussion but i already made that point earlier and that is there are too many classes for 5man content. Making everything 10man content could be a solution but as well a problem at the same time. You forget that NW dev team is rather small and that everything you wish for is far more than they can handle.

    This discussion is rather endless. What i really want to know from you is one thing. Have you read the CW guide and have your team mates you play with read the guides for their classes?
    image
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:


    Your multiple posts on the game mechanics, class synergy and other topics prove that he is right. This is not shameful, well, actually, overstating self ability instead of trying to improve is shameful, but not knowing or not being good at a game is a nothing wrong. And there are many concerns brought up how to make the game more playable for people who do not have the time to details of the game mechanics, or do not have the skills as many of the older players, do not have the reflexes or coordination for example to handle well push pull mechanics. (Though reading a guide take less time than reading some of the posts here)

    Another example of providing absolutely nothing useful in the topic. Any future attempts to write and derail topic in this manner will be reported for obstructing the flow of the discussion, more so since people have pointed out the willingness to abide by civility and reason more than personal vendetta.

    If you have anything against me or consider me "a bad gamer", this is completely your right as it is my right to also report you for provoking and spamming in the topic, furthermore derailing the topic altogether whilst trying to find some form of problem with me.

    I can only say that you are completely wrong and leave it at that since nothing you provided here seems to apply either to me or anything I've written thus far, and seeing that you only bear malicious intent instead of trying to take on the points being discussed I can conclude that you've nothing to look for in the given topic and you should either take on the points being presented by me and others or find something more manageable to do, like playing the game "properly" the way you see fit.

    Do not allow yourself that my "lack of knowledge in playing the game" take your precious time of the day.

    Maybe when you stop thinking about ME you actually might see what the topic is all about. Point of fact, it isn't about me not being able to beat the content, it's about not being able to play with whatever party composition I want to take since the disparity among the party compositions is far too wide for it to be a logical choice and include some diversity.

    So unless you really want to prove a point I really suggest being careful in what you write as I won't tolerate personal attack anymore.

    Thank you for being considerate enough.
    I have replied directly to a claim made by you. You can't bring up topics and then claim they are off-topic at your whims.

    You either posted that claim and image and brought it into topic, or it was purposeful flame-bait as anyone will immediately notice that it doesn't prove what it claims to prove and contradicts all earlier statements.

    Could it be that you posted it on purpose to elicit the well expected and deserved response so you then can threat with flagging the posts? I would like to believe that people are not so low, but on the other hand, as it is obvious that that post had no other contribution to the topic, nor brought anything meaningful to the discussion, it was indeed the purpose.

    We had a proper and civil discussion with several people with opposing points of view, yet the only one derailing the conversation time after time is YOU!. Each time with huge posts discussion people and their posts and not the topic at hand.

    If you will proceed with such disruption to the conversation, I will report and flag all the offending posts.

    More so, most of each post content of the last 9 posts (and so are many previous posts) discuss the poster and not the topics. Please re-read the quote I have provided, but if you will insist on keeping each poster as the topic and not the idea behind their posts, again, your posts will have to be flagged as flame-bait, disruptive and off-topic.

  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    Its false that you cannot do content with whatever party composition you want to take, it is possible, thats why the Private Queue is there.

    No it's not false so don't pretend like each content can be beaten with whatever party composition. For instance The Acrolith strictly depends upon having enough damage, lest the boss kills you after 4th pillar and wipes entire party.

    What would be the difference of having two parties :

    1 party :

    MoF
    Dc
    Dc
    Gf
    Op

    2 party

    Sw
    MoF
    SS
    Op
    Dc

    Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?

    Let us say that they are all at 15.5K IL - 16.5K IL

    If your choice is party one that beats content faster, much faster, then you have successfully confirmed my position as well, which means that Power Sharing meta needs to go so that we can finally have content not being made with having 200-300K power being shared on mind.

    And that will also make other people stop saying how content is "easy" since it's really not easy.

    I will address other points later as I'm not at liberty talking things in detail.

    If you want to tell me that party 2 is better than party 1, I want you to prove it. If not, then welcome to the topic where there are party composition problematics that we need to discuss and solve.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User

    blur#5900 said:

    Its false that you cannot do content with whatever party composition you want to take, it is possible, thats why the Private Queue is there.

    No it's not false so don't pretend like each content can be beaten with whatever party composition. For instance The Acrolith strictly depends upon having enough damage, lest the boss kills you after 4th pillar and wipes entire party.

    What would be the difference of having two parties :

    1 party :

    MoF
    Dc
    Dc
    Gf
    Op

    2 party

    Sw
    MoF
    SS
    Op
    Dc

    Which party beats this content faster? Actually, which party has the success finishing it without taking into the account that they're all at R14 and Unparalleled equips?

    Let us say that they are all at 15.5K IL - 16.5K IL

    If your choice is party one that beats content faster, much faster, then you have successfully confirmed my position as well, which means that Power Sharing meta needs to go so that we can finally have content not being made with having 200-300K power being shared on mind.

    And that will also make other people stop saying how content is "easy" since it's really not easy.

    I will address other points later as I'm not at liberty talking things in detail.

    If you want to tell me that party 2 is better than party 1, I want you to prove it. If not, then welcome to the topic where there are party composition problematics that we need to discuss and solve.
    If everyone was playing optimally (at the item level you listed) the difference between party 1 and 2 might be a couple minutes, and that's mostly because group 1 has ITF for a speed boost between fights...
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    dairyzeus said:



    If everyone was playing optimally (at the item level you listed) the difference between party 1 and 2 might be a couple minutes, and that's mostly because group 1 has ITF for a speed boost between fights...

    How do you know? Can you provide something tangible/sustainable to cover that? Why optimal? What is Optimal? Define Optimal? Optimal is vague and void, and doesn't prove anything.

    If you want to tag along this party composition, there's also a secret 3rd option which I will ask about later, although this question was directed at another person, but it's ok.

    Note that in both party compositions I've offered the possibility to take OP and DC. There will be parties without the duo just for the sake of comparison.

    CR dungeon.

    - Party one has 3 people wearing at least Pure Feytouched at bare minimum.

    - Party two has Dread, Terror, Lightning, Vorpal and let's say that the last person wears Radiant.

    Which party wins faster?

    Couple of minutes is vague, void and doesn't mean anything. It can mean from 2 to 5 to 10 to 30 minutes altogether.

    GF increases the speed, yes, exponentially. Especially at Acrolith who's a Do-Or-Die type of a boss.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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