We all know that the GWF is to arc what the paladin is to Blizzard. That being said can we consider making end game content that involves 5 man runs on open public exclude redundant classes? This whole 2 clerics and a gwf is getting annoying. I'm not asking that you nerf classes or ruin someone else's playstyle but it's gotten to the point that GWFs are behaving like the cardashians. Not only do we have to have 2 clerics but Christ forbid if one of them specced for cleanse then the entire run is ruined.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti
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Fastest T9 run I have seen is with a Tac GF, Healadin, DO DC that went AC on Rasi, Templock, and a CW that ran as an Opp.
No pure DPS in that run. We beat it in under 10 minutes without any issues.
The problem I see with a GWF and TR is that they lack the ability to truly provide any type of buffing/debuffing to the group and that is why rarely you see any group running more than one TR or a GWF.
What should happen is an update to the TR and GWF to provide them utility as buffers with a slight loss to their damage. But it would make the overall group better and improve run times.
The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.
The problem I see is not what the devs can do but more how the players of those classes would react to such a change. I mean have talked to some former CWs that were pure DPS. Quite a few I know quit the game or went OP or DC as they simply felt cheated out of their character. Now the CW thing was a fix and many felt the damage loss and did what they felt was needed. I actually liked the changes and now get to play my CW way more than before.
Another thought is full on game REVAMP. I have stated that this needs to happen if the devs are to truly bring about balance into the game and make it better for all players, especially the DPS heavy community that all games have.
Now imagine if all class could play 2 roles: DPS or a support role instead of some builds being force to play 2 support roles.
This type of update would require a full revamp and with us having loadouts it would make sense to have the ability to play 2 roles for each class and with the paragon path, not feats, it would be easier to setup such a system or should I say revamp the current system to allow all classes to actually play a support and a DPS role.
If the devs did this, the encounter powers, at will and daily that are unique to the paragon path would be the build block around how the class is a DPS or a support class.
GWF and TR would get additional options other than what they have now. DC would not always be regulated as healer, GF would not always be consider tanks, SW could be considered a healer, OP could be a DPS and not only a support class, etc... The thing is though, could this community handle such a long endeavor by Cryptic to make such a change; we are talking probably 1 year worth of development to make such an update to this game. Not only time to make the change but will the changes to the game actually be what the community wants?
Whatever the devs do, they do it based on data and the direction they want the game to go. We may have some great idea or wants as players, but when it is all said and done, data and game direction is in the hands of the development company and Hasbro brothers.
I can understand ya approach, but I'd prefer there actually be some sense of role spective classes. I don't want it to be cookie cutter in the end of just Support n' deeps.
Personally I can't see a Gwf being a buffer, nor could I see a TR being one.
I'd prefer it to fall into categorizes such as
Primary DPS (AoE vairant/ST variant/burst/tick/chunking)
Hybrid DPS (Not as good as a DPs, yet hybrid of another )
Primary Buffer-debuffer
Hybrid Buffer-debuffer
Primary Tank (Heavy Aggro/Survivability etc)
Hybrid Tank
Primary Healer (Burst n' Large single heals)
Secondary Healer
Primary Controller (Ya get the point)
Secondary Controller
For example(just making a example of what I'd like to see. : P )
Each class gets certain ones
GWF
Primary DPS
Primary Tank
With a hybrid of DPS and Control
Pros/Cons
High Single Target (IV ST should be centric)
Decent AoE ( SM gwfs are technically a AoE centric build)
IV suffers from a lack of AoE.
SM should lose to IV in ST.
Tanking High Aggro/Threat, yet mostly stationary with a slow walk, while Parrying enemies attacks. Causing it to ignore a set amount of damage taken, yet marking enemies parried (something along the lines of that)
Hybrid, stun centric doesn't excel in either AoE or DPS, but is more window of opportunity focused.
TR
Primary DPS
Primary Control
With a hybrid of DPS and Control
Pros/Cons
High Attack rate dmg ST so bosses health should tick down like a machine gun, not bursting down or chunking down. While other paragon cause more burst towards AoE centric Mobs.
Control to slow/stun etc if the devs make it viable and actually serve a purpose.
Hybrid a mixture between the two not excelling in either yet getting the job done strategically
CW
Primary Control
Primary Buffer-buffer-debuffer
With a hybrid of DPS and Buffer
Major Control focus, to stop a group of enemies with a AoE paragon and a More Slow and enemies attack rate approach for ST paragon.
Buffer-debuff self explanatory.
Hybrid providing a decent dmg output while still providing some buffs-debuffs.
SW
Primary DPS DoT
Primary Buffer
With a hybrid of Healing and Buffer
Pally
Primary Healer
Primary Tank
With a Hybrid of Healer and Buffer
GF
Primary Tank
Primary Buffer
With a Hybrid of DPS and Tank
HR
Range
Primary
Primary
Secondary
Melee
DC
Primary Healer
Primary Buffer
Secondary buffer and Healer
Don't take it all literal, the point I'm trying to get across is each class should have some viability to it, but not just give everyone buffs and give everyone similar dmg, make everyone a tank, make everyone a healer and call it a day, there's supposed to be differing... •,•
(Imma sleep now been up all night)
But I think we are forgetting that there are tons of casual players who play to game to have fun, not to make friends. You cannot force people to make bonds with other players just to run Castle Ravenloft. This is insane, especially if you're an adult who plays to have a good time.
I think that the fact that new dungeons are being restricted to predefined groups of people playing with each other and knowing each other - this is a flaw in design. Cause I - as 30-year old guy who comes back from work and wants to relax and enjoy playing the game, when I try to find a group to run a new dungeon - I cannot do this. After 20-30 minutes of searching I give up and run etos or the new etos (tong) for AD.
Forcing people to interact with each other is expected - no brainer here. But forcing people to build proper groups, for them to look for a group publically for 20-30 minutes or even hour without success - this is a flaw in design.
In this way, you lock the content for many, many players. I have met many people in game who haven't ran Craddle yet. Not to mention Castle Ravenloft.
And what's so wrong with casuals being interested in CR? This is free to play game, everyone can run it. People like Ravenloft, since lots of them are hardcore D&D fans and the only thing close they get to CR is watching someone else beat it on the internet.
Again: flaw in design. And a big one.
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Sure, the GWF could be changed a bit - personally I would have liked one feat tree be focused on single target attacks, while another would be more AoE-focused, but the GWF is always going to be a DPSer above all....nothing else makes sense.
But tbh: The GWF is a pure DPS class. He cant tank, he cant controll, he cant heal and he cant buff ( not really...). So all a GWF can do is DPS.
> Maybe its the enemies that need reworking. Toss in some orthons and abishais that shrug off nonmagical attacks, and some flying beasties that only long ranged heroes can effectively cope with.
There’s something to this angle. More hp and better placement/grouping around zones and instances would help. Personally, I miss having a puller, Groups which are organized. Aggro management. Tanks which tank. Seems most of the time things revolve around the principle that we’re all a bunch of overcaffinnated dorito dusted spaz’s..
Meh.
My primary thoughts on this would be this...
DC DO - DPS
DC AC - Healer
GF Iron Vanguard - Tank
GF Swordmaster - DPS
CW MoF - Buffer
CW SS - DPS
GWF Iron Vanguard - Tank
GWF Swordmaster - DPS
OP Protection - Tank
OP Devotion - DPS
SW Hellbringer - DPS
SW Soulbinder - Healer
TR Whisperknife - Buffer
TR Master Infiltrator - DPS
HR Pathfinder - Buffer
HR StormWarden - DPS
Druid (I listed Druid here based on the fact with the updates below we have 3 Buffers, 3 Tanks and only 2 Healers)
Circle of the Land - Healer
Circle of the Moon - DPS
Similar to what we have now the feats will determine how we build our characters, more DPS focus or a bit more buffing focused. A DC that is DO could still take feats to buff the group. The difference is a DC DO after the update would have the personals, encounters, and dailies adjusted to help boost the personal damage of the DO, such as TI only increasing the damage for the DO and not the group or TI increase the personal damage for the DO by the full amount and the group damage is only increased by 25% of the buff.
When I mentioned adjusting classes to play two roles, it is not just to play the two roles but to allow us as players to be able to q into content as a support role or a DPS role based on the way we build our character. This of course would require the devs to create a new role, buffer so new setup for 5 man content would be 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 buffer and 2 DPS.
Buffer role will be able to provide the highest type of in game buffs and debuffs from personals, dailies, encounters and at wills. This type make qing easier and bring about some balance and adjust the meta from OP, GF, 2 DCs and 1 DPS to being tank, healer, buffer and 2 DPS.
If the devs do a revamp they need to ensure that all class role combinations are within 5% variance of each other. This would ensure that all buffers, healers, tank and DPS can do the job and do it equally well. The new meta group would only complete content roughly 5% faster than any other group. Making all classes viable and worth playing.
The above is my solution to NW ongoing issues of player being left out of groups and this also provides all classes at minimum two builds if not more.
You want to be support, choose a support class.
There's something wrong with a world where rangers, warlocks, wizards, and assassins can only justify their presence in a fight by bringing along bandaids and energy drinks.
A couple things:
- Three dps in a room should always deal more damage than one dps of equal value.
- A defensive class should never, ever, ever out-dps a dps class.
> I rarely now run with 2 DCs through T9. Instead it is usually a Templock, CW Buffer, OP Tank, AC DC and a TR or a GWF. If we do not run with a OP Tank we go with a Tac GF and sub the Templock for a Healadin.
>
> Fastest T9 run I have seen is with a Tac GF, Healadin, DO DC that went AC on Rasi, Templock, and a CW that ran as an Opp.
>
> No pure DPS in that run. We beat it in under 10 minutes without any issues.
>
> The problem I see with a GWF and TR is that they lack the ability to truly provide any type of buffing/debuffing to the group and that is why rarely you see any group running more than one TR or a GWF.
>
> What should happen is an update to the TR and GWF to provide them utility as buffers with a slight loss to their damage. But it would make the overall group better and improve run times.
>
> The thing is though, would the majority of TR and GWF take the lower damage for offering additional group buffing? Would these players be willing to actually see less damage.
>
> The problem I see is not what the devs can do but more how the players of those classes would react to such a change. I mean have talked to some former CWs that were pure DPS. Quite a few I know quit the game or went OP or DC as they simply felt cheated out of their character. Now the CW thing was a fix and many felt the damage loss and did what they felt was needed. I actually liked the changes and now get to play my CW way more than before.
>
> Another thought is full on game REVAMP. I have stated that this needs to happen if the devs are to truly bring about balance into the game and make it better for all players, especially the DPS heavy community that all games have.
>
> Now imagine if all class could play 2 roles: DPS or a support role instead of some builds being force to play 2 support roles.
>
> This type of update would require a full revamp and with us having loadouts it would make sense to have the ability to play 2 roles for each class and with the paragon path, not feats, it would be easier to setup such a system or should I say revamp the current system to allow all classes to actually play a support and a DPS role.
>
> If the devs did this, the encounter powers, at will and daily that are unique to the paragon path would be the build block around how the class is a DPS or a support class.
>
> GWF and TR would get additional options other than what they have now. DC would not always be regulated as healer, GF would not always be consider tanks, SW could be considered a healer, OP could be a DPS and not only a support class, etc... The thing is though, could this community handle such a long endeavor by Cryptic to make such a change; we are talking probably 1 year worth of development to make such an update to this game. Not only time to make the change but will the changes to the game actually be what the community wants?
>
> Whatever the devs do, they do it based on data and the direction they want the game to go. We may have some great idea or wants as players, but when it is all said and done, data and game direction is in the hands of the development company and Hasbro brothers.
Do you have proof of that 9 minute T9G run? I'd imagine you would record something like that considering the fastest T9G run was around 9 or 10 minutes.
Now as a long time player of various MMO games I know that tanks have a few various ways to hold threat. One is an ability that causes the tank to get on the top of the threat chart, other ways include abilities that causes other player damage to increase the tank threat, controlling them or healing oneself can also cause threat, and a very common way for a tank to hold threat when an ability is on cool down is by doing damage. Now the GF class is designed around marking for threat but you also need to produce enough damage to hold the threat when running with good DPS. This is where the GF DPS build comes into play or if you have a very good group and don't need a true tank or a buff tank you can run as a DPS tank for extra chip damage. That is how the GF is designed. Not the way many play the GF, which is they think they are a true DPS.
If a GF was a true DPS it would not need the survivors wrap and cleanse would have not impact their output in damage. To me a GF is a tank and should be played as such. Yeah it is fun adding chip damage but the extra AP, bonus damage from ITF, and bonus damage from crushing pin should be our focus as GF to help the group get through content.
Now if the devs did do what I asked about expanding out the game and giving each class two roles; than yes GF deserve to have a damage role and it should be updated so they are more effective at producing damage without the need to rely on Survivor wraps.
Each new dungeon should come out with a master version for the 2dc/tank/buff/dps metaheads, and a normal version for everyone else. I haven't even used the CR key I made a month ago, on my 17k HR stormwarden main...
TR and GWF are also one trick ponies in this game; they are regulated as DPS and have no other real viable option. The GWF should be able to tank and the TR should be able to provide some type of debuff and buff for the group, similar to a CW.
DC are like GF in that a well built DC can do damage but again, the focus for a DC is on buffing due to how buffing works in this game making the damaging DC a think only when you have many, more than 2, DCs in your group.
I stated this more than once, NWO needs a revamp from the ground up to balance out how buffs and debuff work, provide all classes two roles, update all companions (those that have stats given them more or add a active in addition to the stat), update gear, update how stats work, etc... This game has so many holes in a minor update results in some really stupid bug that makes one class to strong or another unwanted in groups.
I like NW but I see that this game needs a real update not content but to its mechanics.