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Strahd's vocabulary is just a little extensive - he uses a word that cannot possibly exist in D&D.
lowjohn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
When you hit the Castle Ravenloft queue and cross onto the bridge, Strahd says:
[7/30 20:42] [NPC] Strahd Von Zarovich: And you've brought that antediluvian Sunsword with you.
[7/30 20:42] [NPC] And you've brought that antediluvian Sunsword with you.
There's a problem here: "antediluvian" is not just a fancy synonym for "old", it literally means "predating the deluge", referencing "dating from before Noah's Flood in the Book Of Genesis, Chapter 7"[1]
That's a reference that doesn't exist in D&D. No Forgotten Realms character would ever exclaim "Jesus Christ!" when startled.
This is like using "a bowie knife" in a world without Jim Bowie and The Battle Of The Alamo, or "boycott" and "quisling" without Charles Boycott or Vidkun Quisling. Rich as Croesus. The Midas touch. Old as Methuselah. You can't have a pyrrhic victory without Pyrrhus. You can't cross a rubicon or have "a roman nose" in a world without Rome. You can't accomplish a herculean feat or have a sisyphean task without ancient Greece. Referring to a scandal as something-gate can't happen before 1972 or in a world without Richard Nixon.
My point is, something can't be "antediluvian" in a world without the established concept of Noah's Flood. It's the wrong word. It's an editing mistake.
(I totally don't expect you to fix this or re-record the audio or anything. I'm just hoping that *next* time you'll watch for this kind of thing.)
[1]: It's also a Vampire: the Masquerade reference[2], like 90% of the other things in Castle Ravenloft. But it's still wrong.
[2]: In v:tm it also means "from before Noah's Flood"
[7/30 20:42] [NPC] Strahd Von Zarovich: And you've brought that antediluvian Sunsword with you.
[7/30 20:42] [NPC] And you've brought that antediluvian Sunsword with you.
There's a problem here: "antediluvian" is not just a fancy synonym for "old", it literally means "predating the deluge", referencing "dating from before Noah's Flood in the Book Of Genesis, Chapter 7"[1]
That's a reference that doesn't exist in D&D. No Forgotten Realms character would ever exclaim "Jesus Christ!" when startled.
This is like using "a bowie knife" in a world without Jim Bowie and The Battle Of The Alamo, or "boycott" and "quisling" without Charles Boycott or Vidkun Quisling. Rich as Croesus. The Midas touch. Old as Methuselah. You can't have a pyrrhic victory without Pyrrhus. You can't cross a rubicon or have "a roman nose" in a world without Rome. You can't accomplish a herculean feat or have a sisyphean task without ancient Greece. Referring to a scandal as something-gate can't happen before 1972 or in a world without Richard Nixon.
My point is, something can't be "antediluvian" in a world without the established concept of Noah's Flood. It's the wrong word. It's an editing mistake.
(I totally don't expect you to fix this or re-record the audio or anything. I'm just hoping that *next* time you'll watch for this kind of thing.)
[1]: It's also a Vampire: the Masquerade reference[2], like 90% of the other things in Castle Ravenloft. But it's still wrong.
[2]: In v:tm it also means "from before Noah's Flood"
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2)V:TM is set in the real world, which is why "Noah's Flood" is a thing there.
3) There are no floods in Faerun?
2) Correct. And also why Strahd shouldn't use the word: he's not from our world.
3) There are presumably floods in Faerun. There is no apocalyptic historical flood used as a marker for "long long ago". Having a word that meant "from before the Spellplague" or "from before the Time Of Troubles" and using that as a shorthand for "long ago", that would work..... except Strahd still wouldn't use it because he's not from Faerun either.
I'll just see myself out now....
And it doesn't have that meaning in a world where Ceasar bringing his armies across the Rubicon and into Rome wasn't a violation of the absolute rule that the armies stayed out of the capital, to prevent a general from using his armies to perform a coup. Which Caesar then immediately did.
It was a little jarring to have that somewhat obscure and very biblical-sounding word pop up in context of this game, but Strahd's voice actor sells his gothic vampire vibe so well that I didn't even catch it until after the first run-through. It's an odd word choice for the context, but hey, at least a lot of people learned a new word :P
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NIGHTSWATCH
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I'll never retrace my steps.
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are you serious....all that is broken in this game and that gets your attention?
rather than busting a nut over a word in dialogue the usage of which is at worst debatable and at best meaningless how about trying to fix equipment that doesn't stack properly, things missing from inventories, broken audio, quests that break, raq's that are driving people further away from the game...etc etc.
here's a suggestion, all you devs (or whatever you call yourselves) throw away the BIS gear you got for free and try working through the game from scratch; perhaps then you will get a grip on reality, what is important and what really needs fixing as a priority.
to the OP; with the best will in the world, if something so trivial bugs you so much try lowering the volume at that point instead of coming on forum and giving people more excuses to not fix what really needs fixing....
(I mean, we do understand, or we can look it up and understand, but that's *us*, out here.)
As for the people being all "why do you care"? It's an immersion thing. It's like someone being described as "shell-shocked" in a world that *does not have artillery shells*. I don't expect them to CHANGE it, which is why this is in the feedback forum, not the bug reporting one. If the team keeps an eye out for this kind of thing in the future, I'm happy, I've gotten everything I want from here.
Yet it certainly does make the debates on the forums a lot more interesting at times. Also why I can sometimes chuckle as I see two people arguing about something, despite the fact I recognize they are actually agreeing with each other.
Still I think I agree with one or your earlier comments @ilithyn as even "Webster's" or several other Dictionary's like "Oxford" as you denoted "idk 2/3rd of the English" as there being a 2nd or 3rd meanings if not far more likely interpretation for the references.
[2] from Websters:
▪ made, evolved, or developed a long time ago ·that antediluvian relic known as a slide rule
▪ extremely primitive or outmoded ·an antediluvian prejudice ·antediluvian in his politics
[2] from Oxford:
▪ (humorous) Ridiculously old-fashioned.
So I generally always try to interpret things using the widest latitude in the game / forums. I generally find that results in me gaining the best understanding regardless if it's something posted from Cryptic or posted by an individual User.
I would be upset if Stradh said, "And you've brought that groovy lightsabre with you.... cool!"
The people on Toril don't even speak English, so couldn't we just say it is a poor translation? They speak Deep Speech, Primordial, Sylvan, Auran, Draconic, etc. but not one word of English.
But I think, while mocking me, you came up with the PERFECT analogy: Strahd referencing Genesis is EXACTLY as jarring as Strahd referencing Star Wars.
And sure, they don't speak English, but we see them translated to English. At the same time, it strikes me as odd to see this translation done making a cultural allusion that can't be in the source text. Strahd can't be saying "antediluvian" any more than Temba, his arms wide, with Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra.
"1 : of or relating to the period before the flood described in the Bible"
and also the origin/etymology section and also the fact that even M-W classifies it as "a Bible term" and includes links to "other Bible terms".
Nobody is contesting that a quisling is a traitor or that a bowie knife is a large hunting knife, or that antediluvian doesn't mean "old". The complaint is that it's a word that cannot exist in that world. If Lord Neverember complained that he was going broke in a New York minute, that would still be a problem even though M-W's only definition for the term is "instant" or "flash".
And there's nothing pedantic or ridiculous about this thread. This is the kind of input that good writers want and need. It's the kind of thing they slap themselves in the head over. Either because a word or phrase was used that shouldn't have been, or some kind of supporting context somewhere was left out.
Should any form of the word apocalypse be off the table too since it is a biblical term?
I get the point but many of our words are derived from religions and real word experiences. Where's the line drawn?
Should we not use "annihilate" because the word's origin is based on the decimated city of Annih (sp?)? No Annih means the word annihilation couldn't be a word outside of the real world?
However, I agree that using the word "antediluvian" was a mistake, but for very different reasons. It's not because it is a biblical reference, it's because most people would have to look it up to know what it means at all. If an average person has to keep a dictionary handy to understand what you're saying, you have failed at communicating clearly. I say this as someone who has struggled over the years to minimize my use of 6-8 syllable words in casual conversation.
Still I think Strahd was simple using the far more widely accepted definition being to a much earlier time. Even if the primary definition uses a metaphoric reference to a much earlier time from the Bible.
The word itself has no religious meaning itself, the metaphoric reference was simple to emphasize a much earlier time. Which is also why the second and far more common usage doesn't reference examples to make the point of old-fashioned or developed a long time ago. Both of those are very clear reference to something long in the past.
[2] from Websters:
▪ made, evolved, or developed a long time ago ·that antediluvian relic known as a slide rule
▪ extremely primitive or outmoded ·an antediluvian prejudice ·antediluvian in his politics
[2] from Oxford:
▪ (humorous) Ridiculously old-fashioned.
I think those are both great examples.
Personally, I don't like it when words or phrases that hold real significance to a certain group of people are misused. I don't like seeing apocalypse used outside of its original context. I'm always shocked to hear people throwing around words like, 'holocaust', or comparing people to, 'hitler,' or, 'antichrist,' or hearing someone make fun of a congresswoman by calling her, 'Pocahontis.' Out of the correct context, certain words and names are just off limits to certain groups of people, and in my opinion, it's incredibly stupid, arrogant, irresponsible, and disrespectful to bandy them about.
Annihilate is a great example because it's a word that:
- is already in common usage, so authors aren't very likely to get called out on it
- has a number of synonyms that could easily be used in its place
- isn't 'charged,' or meaningful to a group of people (that I know of)
- it's original reference is pretty much buried beneath the modern usage
I honestly wouldn't have blinked at antediluvian except maybe to look it up, but it is a little different from those other two examples. Unlike words like annihilate, it may have multiple meanings, but it hasn't shaken free from its roots. And like pterias pointed out, that word's like a sledgehammer. You can't swing it around in a conversation without knocking someone's hat off.
Good discussion, guys.
(I don't mean to bag on M-W specifically except that they were brought up as authoritative earlier and lol no even they will tell you not to do that, just ask them on twitter.)
Like @ilithyn said, we would have to toss out ⅔ of the language used. I can't see anyone getting bent out of shape over the origin, historic, or religious background of a simple word. Also do you even know what dimension, realm, planet, etc.. Strahd originally came from? Because in the lore states he is not native to Barovia. He came from another to conquer the region known as Barovia, and assumed lordship there.
Maybe his spaceship from Earth crashed there?! LOL
If this is an issue with mixing religion into D&D, too late, D&D lore is generally based on many different cultural religions and mythologies.
If this is an issue as said, a word not from the Forgotten Realms, it is then a matter of translation and interpretations.