I have a little over 25m in ad witch I saved so that I could buy whatever I want when I want. and to add that I dont do master crafting so if I logged on one day and seen that they deleted my ad I would lose my HAMSTER and quit this game.. and before anyone says it yes i do support the game when sales are on I dont think they want to lose a bunch of day 1 players in 1 day.
Wanna kill hoarders - make 100M AD limit account wide. Without a warning like a tradebar store change or class packs removed. One clean cut. Or announce it and you will see end of a ZAX backlog in a day.
..... why would the ZAX backlog get better if people were told they'd suddenly lose all their AD? That would make the ZAX backlog *worse* as every affected account immediately sticks 12.5M AD (the max you can put on ZAX at once) up on ZAX to turn it into Zen. Assuming, y'know, they haven't ALREADY spent the months required to turn most of it into Zen, since Zen->AD is instant in case they want AD but AD->Zen takes days-to-weeks.
If you want to remove the backlog, you need to provide an incentive to turn Zen into AD, not AD into Zen. The backlog is because everyone wants Zen and relatively few people want AD.
The best method of them doing it is not telling anyone they are doing it. Till after of course maintance for the patch that adds it in. There is not just player farmed ad. There is millions or billions of botted ad. So what they do, They do not tell anyone they are adding in a account wide ad pool or a code that allows the game how much ad there is being stockpiled on individual characters. If the code detects more then one million they destory that ad but leaving 100 million. So say a person has ten characters with 100mill stockpiled on each while the rest being converted to zen. Game detects that account has 1 billion ad. Deletes 900 million of that ad or cuts off players from accessing that ad or trading it on zax. Removing it for good from the game later. That player would be mad and a lot of people that have stocked piled ad would be mad but it would remove the backlog Or most of the billions from players accounts. But to be truly successful then well they can't tell players they are doing it.
So basically what I'm suggesting they make the one million ad limit account wide like that person in the quote suggested. Then destroy all ad that bypasses that limit. Backlog problem might be fixed like he suggested by doing this even though there would be a lot of ticked off players. By only if they do it without warning the players they are doing it. So both of you are right.
Wow! This is the worst idea in the history of EVER. I don't even currently HAVE 1 million AD (been splurging on my guild) and even I would HAMSTER GERBIL quit if they did this. My wife currently has 3.5 million AD and I know she'd be out. You're talking about wiping out people's hard work, especially for people who haven't been botting. Rich players are entitled to their largesse even if it is messing with the economy. They've either run random dungeons and/or epic dungeons or played the AH - and I would say they've probably done both! My wife and I run random dungeons and epic dungeons and we refine 100k per day, mostly using salvage.
Your idea would absolutely HAMSTER kill the game the day the servers came back up with that kind of change implemented on them.
So. Looks like the Knox companion is not being re-sold on a weekly basis. Pretty much, Cryptic wants it to 'seem' like they wanna take care of the backlog, but either they truly don't or they don't want to admit that player base actually knows what it is talking about in ways to get rid of the AD backlog. Take the Knox companion. 100 million AD due to the desire for BiS ( assuming that auction house exploited is not used ) a pop. 2 hundred thousand zen ( a little over 1800 bucks if 11,000 per 100 bucks ). Backlog of zen is in the billions IIRC. If done daily ( as it should have been done ) then knox stood potentially ( results may be different but feeding the rich folks to be BiS this should be atleast close ) then by the date of 21st, you are looking at 11 days. 2.2 million zen being removed from the backlog. This is just for one companion. Any BiS companions, items, etc. and auctioned in this manner would multiply the zen removal rate from the backlog. This is all assuming done on a daily basis. Every day that it is not done like this is an admission by Cryptic that I am correct. Release of future companions similar to Knox, items that are start being done via the Knox way that cryptic did multiplies how much I am correct. Eventually, this is gonna go from millions of zen to billions territory and therefore going from a multi-thousand dollar decision to multi-million dollar decision that is being missed out on.
So Cryptic can certainly come up with ideas that can take bring in the $$$. Execution of them however is lacking and not listening to the player base affects $$$ coming in.
What are you talking about?? They have sold 2 so far, the 2nd went for over 40 million. A new one will be listed tomorrow. You need to pay more attention to what's going on.
I would like to ask for the ability to react more than once to a post. I had to pick between "Awesome" and "LOL" on this post and that is simply not fair. I should be able to pick both.
Actually, there is nothing wrong with being a rich player. But pretty much like in real life it depends how did you make that money. If its a hard work or good idea behind it - its fine, but if there is a crime,scam or fraud its not that nice huh? And please do not forget that most of that illegal money is tried to be washed - like mafia model. Just imagine that: He stole dozen of legendary mounts out of players in game. (Yes it was possible with long gone (thank god) a AH glitch) then he tranfers them to other accounts - waited some time then grab them sold them and began playing with AH or MC. And no - its not a joke. Unfortuantely not all such players and all their accounts were cought and perma banned.
This game have literally 2 problems leading to current economy model and status. 1st - One was at least few occasions witch allowed players to make a lot of AD in the ways not intended by the devs. 2nd - one is never balanced ratio between creating AD in legal ways in compare to the game AD sinks shortage.
And no posting Knoxes like devs try right now wont change anything. Reworking a living economy model is much harder then that. And to be honest its gona be a tough job for the devs to do that not hurting honest players along the way.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited July 2018
This is small fry, if the devs really want to get rid of AD they are not even trying. Raise the AD limit to 2 billion+ per toon as well as the minimum bid, then post some of the rarer legendary tools on the auction house, like this:
Before bid: After bid: (Thanks to the person who provided the picture, I don't play xbox)
I know a few people, including myself, who would spend over 100m on these. For bonus points, post a single mythic tool that works on every profession, similar to forgehammer, which can be used in addition to forgehammer. It would sell for whatever the max ad bid is, even if it was 2 billion.
Minor digression, 17! leg tools on xbox ah In comparison, pc market:
The best method of them doing it is not telling anyone they are doing it. Till after of course maintance for the patch that adds it in. There is not just player farmed ad. There is millions or billions of botted ad. So what they do, They do not tell anyone they are adding in a account wide ad pool or a code that allows the game how much ad there is being stockpiled on individual characters. If the code detects more then one million they destory that ad but leaving 100 million. So say a person has ten characters with 100mill stockpiled on each while the rest being converted to zen. Game detects that account has 1 billion ad. Deletes 900 million of that ad or cuts off players from accessing that ad or trading it on zax. Removing it for good from the game later. That player would be mad and a lot of people that have stocked piled ad would be mad but it would remove the backlog Or most of the billions from players accounts. But to be truly successful then well they can't tell players they are doing it.
So basically what I'm suggesting they make the one million ad limit account wide like that person in the quote suggested. Then destroy all ad that bypasses that limit. Backlog problem might be fixed like he suggested by doing this even though there would be a lot of ticked off players. By only if they do it without warning the players they are doing it. So both of you are right.
So basically you are saying the Cryptic should steal players' money. By your example, I think that if a game company took over $15,000 from them, they would be a little bit more than mad.
This is small fry, if the devs really want to get rid of AD they are not even trying. Raise the AD limit to 2 billion+ per toon as well as the minimum bid, then post some of the rarer legendary tools on the auction house, like this:
Before bid: After bid: (Thanks to the person who provided the picture, I don't play xbox)
I know a few people, including myself, who would spend over 100m on these. For bonus points, post a single mythic tool that works on every profession, similar to forgehammer, which can be used in addition to forgehammer. It would sell for whatever the max ad bid is, even if it was 2 billion.
Minor digression, 17! leg tools on xbox ah In comparison, pc market:
100m ad is too high for the current+future economy where you can earn 100k per day. I Rather see the ad limit you can post to drop down to 50m.
Ad sink is to craft with 75% chance isnt it ?:). Before masterwork we used to craft items with 60% chance and now what want easy 95% ? they better remove the legendary tools.
It would be too late to even think about removing legendary tools too many people own them and that would create yet another problem they are a huge investment
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited July 2018
100m ad is not too much, I can think of quite a few people who would spend that much on those tools. I would and so would some of my friends. Also, the AD sink is hitting the rush button, not succeeding at the craft. People who MW will hit the rush button regardless of the %chance to succeed. Furthermore, there is nothing "easy" about this 95%, you try buying these tools, you can't, even if you want to. You want to spend 100m+ on them? It isn't an option even if you want to. Furthermore, posting 1 of each of the rarer ones isn't exactly going to change the rarity of them, since currently, they pretty much don't exist and after 1 of each is sold, they will go back to not existing.
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
By this logic, if you don't own something or it is loaned to you in some form, then it has no value. I'd love to see you try that logic with your landlord or mortgage holder! The fact is that a real world monetary value can be assigned to astral diamonds because they can be indirectly purchased using cash by first purchasing Zen. I'm sure the fact that you cannot directly purchase astral diamonds with cash is what keeps Cryptic and other companies using similar virtual currencies out of trouble with the government. Governmental non-interference notwithstanding, you can compute how much cash it would take to purchase a given quantity of astral diamonds based on the exchange rate on the ZAX. So @omegarealities#7219 has a valid point, despite your ad hominem attack and insistence otherwise.
100m ad is not too much, I can think of quite a few people who would spend that much on those tools. I would and so would some of my friends. Also, the AD sink is hitting the rush button, not succeeding at the craft. People who MW will hit the rush button regardless of the %chance to succeed. Furthermore, there is nothing "easy" about this 95%, you try buying these tools, you can't, even if you want to. You want to spend 100m+ on them? It isn't an option even if you want to. Furthermore, posting 1 of each of the rarer ones isn't exactly going to change the rarity of them, since currently, they pretty much don't exist and after 1 of each is sold, they will go back to not existing.
Did any of them except the Crucible *ever* drop on PC? I do know they were much rarer than legendary mounts from the summertime event, but IIRC only the legendary crucible ever actually dropped even once on PC.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
I never said it was a good idea. I said it was a better idea then the knox. The number of people who have 100's of millions of people who are also willing to spend 100m on it, is like 3-4 players on pc and they know they do not need to compete for it. In comparison, there are probably 15-20 if not even more players willing to spend 100's of millions on tools. The problem with the knox as an AD sink is, the audience it is aimed towards. The type of player who wants it is either a roleplayer or a min maxer who plays a support toon. Roleplayers can automatically be excluded from ever winning this pet, they do not have the currency to do so. Out of the min maxers, only a very small number of them also have so much ad that they can drop 100m on this pet. The first pet selling for 100m was an anomaly, none of the rest of them will sell for even close to that. Nobody thinks the pet is worth that much, not even the person who bought it.
In comparison, the wealthy players in this game are, for the most part, players that craft. Their primary interest lies in masterwork and they are more then willing to drop 100m+ on tools. If you are trying to sell items as AD sinks, aiming items towards them would be a much better way of going about it, since even a single tool in an uncapped AD storage scenario could go for more then the AD value of all the knoxes combined, even if it is still not a good AD sink.
Making every stat on gear variable and then rolling for them with cubes of augmentation would be a good idea. Adding more items that are similar in their functionality to marks of potency to the WB would be a good idea. Anything that consumes massive amounts of AD is a good idea and removing 100m from the economy is doing pretty much nothing.
100m ad is not too much, I can think of quite a few people who would spend that much on those tools. I would and so would some of my friends. Also, the AD sink is hitting the rush button, not succeeding at the craft. People who MW will hit the rush button regardless of the %chance to succeed. Furthermore, there is nothing "easy" about this 95%, you try buying these tools, you can't, even if you want to. You want to spend 100m+ on them? It isn't an option even if you want to. Furthermore, posting 1 of each of the rarer ones isn't exactly going to change the rarity of them, since currently, they pretty much don't exist and after 1 of each is sold, they will go back to not existing.
Did any of them except the Crucible *ever* drop on PC? I do know they were much rarer than legendary mounts from the summertime event, but IIRC only the legendary crucible ever actually dropped even once on PC.
Needle, Mortar, Stone, Crucible, Hammer and Chisel I have seen on pc at some stage or another.
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
So what you are saying is, if I spend $200 real money and purchase 23,000 Zen, that Zen is not mine?
Also, the $15,000 was not pulled out of thin air, here's how it works:
900,000,000 AD = 1,800,000 Zen - @ 500 AD/Zen
1,800,000 Zen = 78.26 23,000 Zen Packs
78.26 23,000 Zen Packs @ $200 a piece equals about $15,652.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them.
23.1*cut* You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials, nor may you assist others in doing so, except as expressly authorized by us. We do not recognize any transfers occurring outside of the Service of anything related to the Service.
Though with that being stated and to clarify the previous "yes and no" statement, any time/energy/money investments players put into an account does have "value" and cannot be taken from players without a valid reason(s).
If a publisher, etc. restricts your access to an account that you have invested time/energy/money into without a valid reason(s) they actually have stolen from you because you essentially can't get those things back/enjoy what those investments can/will provide to you in-game.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them.
23.1*cut* You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials, nor may you assist others in doing so, except as expressly authorized by us. We do not recognize any transfers occurring outside of the Service of anything related to the Service.
Though with that being stated and to clarify the previous "yes and no" statement, any time/energy/money investments players put into an account does have "value" and cannot be taken from players without a valid reason(s).
If a publisher, etc. restricts your access to an account that you have invested time/energy/money into without a valid reason(s) they actually have stolen from you because you essentially can't get those things back/enjoy what those investments can/will provide to you in-game.
4.12 Please note that regardless of any notice, we reserve the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your Account at any time in our sole discretion, for any reason, or for no reason.
24.2 ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND NON REFUNDABLE. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. ZEN AND THE RIGHT TO USE APPLICABLE ZEN ARE NON-TRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR PART. THE RIGHT TO USE ZEN IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE LICENSE TO USE THE SERVICE AND GAME.
26.1 FOR ANY REASON WE MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, BLOCK ACCESS TO OR DELETE THE SERVICE OR ANY ACCOUNT OR PART THEREOF, BY GIVING YOU NOTICE OF SUCH WITHIN THE TIME PERIOD SPECIFIED WHEN YOU CREATED AN ACCOUNT OR JOINED A SERVICE, OR IF NO SUCH TIME PERIOD WAS SPECIFIED, THEN WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE DATE SUCH NOTICE IS PROVIDED TO YOU BY EMAIL OR IS POSTED ON THE WEBSITE OR INTERACTIVE AREA BY US.
26.3 For the avoidance of doubt, you hereby acknowledge that we have the sole discretion with respect to termination of your Account, even if there are credits remaining on your Account. The termination of your Account entails the termination of the license to use the Service or any part thereof (see section 8).
26.6 In the event your Account is terminated for any reason, or for no reason, no refund will be granted, no online time or other credits (e.g., points in an online game) will be credited to you or converted to cash or other form of reimbursement, and you will have no further access to your Account. Any delinquent or unpaid accounts or accounts with unresolved disputes must be settled before we may allow you to register again.
In summary:
They can close your account for any reason or no reason
Any money you spend on this game is not refundable and any benefits that you are licensed in return have no monetary value by definition
Just to reiterate, they have sole discretion about closing accounts
And if they close your account, you don't have any right to compensation for anything related to the account, including time or money spent
Except this isn't an investment - it's a game, whose assets are all owned by Cryptic / PWE. Any money spent on it is for your own entertainment. Period. They allow us to use their assets, but they could (if they chose to) close down tomorrow, or change the entire game to Bunnies & Burrows, or do a complete server wipe - and the playerbase would have no recourse. It's their sandbox, and we're simply guests in it. (See also: SWG and the NGE etc etc, or any MMO that has closed up).
It's a game, offered for free, that players choose to play. Cryptic / PWE is stealing *nothing* by letting you on to the servers. It's a choice you and I make on our own. At the end of the day, though, the assets - art, sound, all the pixels and data - is theirs.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Now the important question is:
Will they have Sergeant Bunny in Bunnies & Borrows?! And how much will it cost?
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
When you can spend real money on something then they take it away its stealing i dont see your logic that we are borrowing every item in this game?
Except this isn't an investment - it's a game, whose assets are all owned by Cryptic / PWE. Any money spent on it is for your own entertainment. Period. They allow us to use their assets, but they could (if they chose to) close down tomorrow, or change the entire game to Bunnies & Burrows, or do a complete server wipe - and the playerbase would have no recourse. It's their sandbox, and we're simply guests in it. (See also: SWG and the NGE etc etc, or any MMO that has closed up).
It's a game, offered for free, that players choose to play. Cryptic / PWE is stealing *nothing* by letting you on to the servers. It's a choice you and I make on our own. At the end of the day, though, the assets - art, sound, all the pixels and data - is theirs.
when i said investment i was meaning by a game stand point not real life wow..
Its not a bad thing these companions are being sold on the AH. I do not think it is enough for what was stated to be achieved and hope more impactful and non restrictive things are implemented in future alongside these efforts.
P.S My forum armchair pov on ToS:
ToS is rules of the game/service. ToS is not law itself but formed with them in mind and can be legally binding. Where actions in/outside of game conflict with ToS they are/will/can be subject to interpretation by the owners etc. who can take w/e action they want. However if that interpretation/action is disputed then based on law a decision can/will be made to resolve it if parties can not come to an agreement.
Imo if you are just playing the game you shouldn't be worried about such things although I do understand where people talk of the games direction etc. I have not experienced such extremes in all my time playing any games for many years (famous last words), not to say that they don't exist or never happened to others. My 2c.
They can close your account for any reason or no reason
Any money you spend on this game is not refundable and any benefits that you are licensed in return have no monetary value by definition
Just to reiterate, they have sole discretion about closing accounts
And if they close your account, you don't have any right to compensation for anything related to the account, including time or money spent
False.
Essentially every contract exist upon the principle of "good faith" and that principle exists for a very specific reason which is to prevent abuse of one or more parties involved.
With that logic there could/would be so much abuse in regard to contractual agreements and none would ever be able to go to court simply because of TOS yet players can/do file court cases against publishers, etc. and win...
Just because a game's TOS states a company, etc. can do XYZ doesn't mean that they actually or rightfully can. In the case of a video game, a company, etc. can't just go around closing the accounts of players without reason, doing so will go directly against the principle of good faith and if the player(s) take it upon themselves to get a court involved the company will have to provide grounds for their action(s), they couldn't just be like "well our terms of service states we can do XYZ", well they could, but it wouldn't be a good look for them.
As long as a player is playing within the rules they are keeping up their end of the contractual agreement and the publisher can't simply single them out and restrict their access to the game without a valid reason.
Except this isn't an investment - it's a game, whose assets are all owned by Cryptic / PWE. Any money spent on it is for your own entertainment. Period. They allow us to use their assets, but they could (if they chose to) close down tomorrow, or change the entire game to Bunnies & Burrows, or do a complete server wipe - and the playerbase would have no recourse. It's their sandbox, and we're simply guests in it. (See also: SWG and the NGE etc etc, or any MMO that has closed up).
It's a game, offered for free, that players choose to play. Cryptic / PWE is stealing *nothing* by letting you on to the servers. It's a choice you and I make on our own. At the end of the day, though, the assets - art, sound, all the pixels and data - is theirs.
If a game is shut down, etc. for ALL players essentially that is within the power of the publisher though closing/banning accounts without a valid reason while the game is still up and running for others is not.
Anytime you put time/energy/money into something it is an investment period. People that work jobs are invested into by their employer(s) and vice versa, there's a trade-off, their time/energy in exchange for money. If the employer fails/refuses to pay a person for their work they are not acting in good faith and are breaching the employment agreement. Same thing with a video game, your T/E/M is invested into the game in return for progress/continued enjoyment of the game while it remains up and running and your investments cannot be rightfully taken from you without valid reason(s).
Just like with amusement parks, most if not all have a notice(s) that state "enter or ride at your own risk" though if someone is hurt due to negligence on behalf of the park then the injured party is entitled to compensation regardless of how many notices are posted and or what they state. A number of people and or their families have gotten compensation for injuries sustained at an amusement park in regard to negligence, by that logic none of them would have received compensation simply because of the notice(s).
ToS/notices do NOT protect a company, etc. from behaving dishonorably, negligently and or acting without good faith and closing the account of a player without a valid reason while the game is still up and running for others is not acting in good faith regardless if the ToS states that they can.
Again, as long as a player is playing within the rules they are keeping up their end of the contractual agreement and the publisher can't simply single them out and restrict their access to the game without a valid reason.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
They can close your account for any reason or no reason
Any money you spend on this game is not refundable and any benefits that you are licensed in return have no monetary value by definition
Just to reiterate, they have sole discretion about closing accounts
And if they close your account, you don't have any right to compensation for anything related to the account, including time or money spent
False.
Essentially every contract exist upon the principle of "good faith" and that principle exists for a very specific reason which is to prevent abuse of one or more parties involved.
With that logic there could/would be so much abuse in regard to contractual agreements and none would ever be able to go to court simply because of TOS yet players can/do file court cases against publishers, etc. and win...
Just because a game's TOS states a company, etc. can do XYZ doesn't mean that they actually or rightfully can. In the case of a video game, a company, etc. can't just go around closing the accounts of players without reason, doing so will go directly against the principle of good faith and if the player(s) take it upon themselves to get a court involved the company will have to provide grounds for their action(s), they couldn't just be like "well our terms of service states we can do XYZ", well they could, but it wouldn't be a good look for them.
As long as a player is playing within the rules they are keeping up their end of the contractual agreement and the publisher can't simply single them out and restrict their access to the game without a valid reason.
As much as I wish that the world worked this way, it doesn't.
They absolutely can close your account, for no reason at all or citing that you "violated the ToS," and you have no recourse.
Business generally have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason except for a narrowly defined set of protected characteristics (race, gender, etc.).
Sure, in this country you can attempt to take anyone to court for just about anything (as long as you have money for an attorney). But see if you can find any examples of players taking action successfully against a publisher on a ToS-related issue. I wasn't able to find any successful examples.
Wanna kill hoarders - make 100M AD limit account wide. Without a warning like a tradebar store change or class packs removed. One clean cut. Or announce it and you will see end of a ZAX backlog in a day.
..... why would the ZAX backlog get better if people were told they'd suddenly lose all their AD? That would make the ZAX backlog *worse* as every affected account immediately sticks 12.5M AD (the max you can put on ZAX at once) up on ZAX to turn it into Zen. Assuming, y'know, they haven't ALREADY spent the months required to turn most of it into Zen, since Zen->AD is instant in case they want AD but AD->Zen takes days-to-weeks.
If you want to remove the backlog, you need to provide an incentive to turn Zen into AD, not AD into Zen. The backlog is because everyone wants Zen and relatively few people want AD.
The best method of them doing it is not telling anyone they are doing it. Till after of course maintance for the patch that adds it in. There is not just player farmed ad. There is millions or billions of botted ad. So what they do, They do not tell anyone they are adding in a account wide ad pool or a code that allows the game how much ad there is being stockpiled on individual characters. If the code detects more then one million they destory that ad but leaving 100 million. So say a person has ten characters with 100mill stockpiled on each while the rest being converted to zen. Game detects that account has 1 billion ad. Deletes 900 million of that ad or cuts off players from accessing that ad or trading it on zax. Removing it for good from the game later. That player would be mad and a lot of people that have stocked piled ad would be mad but it would remove the backlog Or most of the billions from players accounts. But to be truly successful then well they can't tell players they are doing it.
So basically what I'm suggesting they make the one million ad limit account wide like that person in the quote suggested. Then destroy all ad that bypasses that limit. Backlog problem might be fixed like he suggested by doing this even though there would be a lot of ticked off players. By only if they do it without warning the players they are doing it. So both of you are right.
Wow! This is the worst idea in the history of EVER. I don't even currently HAVE 1 million AD (been splurging on my guild) and even I would HAMSTER GERBIL quit if they did this. My wife currently has 3.5 million AD and I know she'd be out. You're talking about wiping out people's hard work, especially for people who haven't been botting. Rich players are entitled to their largesse even if it is messing with the economy. They've either run random dungeons and/or epic dungeons or played the AH - and I would say they've probably done both! My wife and I run random dungeons and epic dungeons and we refine 100k per day, mostly using salvage.
Your idea would absolutely HAMSTER kill the game the day the servers came back up with that kind of change implemented on them.
The best solution is just to change out the currency used for exchange For example you have ten million ad this would equal ten platinum, Say you have 100mil ad that would be 100 platium, So they make the platinum, gold, silver, copper worth something. So one hundred coppers equals 1 silver, one hundred silvers equals one gold, one hundred gold equals one platinum. So basically they can work in such a system, that would take some getting use to. I think it would be wise to change the system all together and compensate players for their trouble. People might be mad people might be upset but it would be better.
Also got to consider this too, a lot of people are just not buying a lot of zen and exchanging it. More the other way around, thus zax can be stuck for weeks while new zen is handed out by new players buying ad. Two much ad not enough zen, they can fix this in many different ways, this is why they put in the account wide limit. Taking players ad is just one suggestion, but preferably not the only solution. The preferred solution would be to switch out the ah currency with something more lore friendly like Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper. For everyday trading and auction housing. While making AD a rare currency, that can be traded for zen as it now but they need to remove all the current ad then while giving all the players compensation with coin then add in a new system for gathering it. Maybe they are shards or a special form of diamonds that must be mined like Dil is in star trek online. So there would not be billions of ad, maybe at the most 100k charater limit on ad gathered by mining maybe with a limit like stos, 8000 per day on one character. This would be a much better deal for us and they can sell unbound enchanted keys in zen store and allow us to sell them to other players again.
They absolutely can close your account, for no reason at all or citing that you "violated the ToS," and you have no recourse.
You are correct that they can close your account though you are wrong in regard to them being able to do so rightfully (meaning without penalty) or simply because their ToS states that they can and also wrong that innocent players have no recourse, they still have to provide a valid reason other than "you violated the ToS", if not a player can seek compensation for their loss of T/E/M invested into the account.
Just like with police, yes they can arrest you simply if they feel like it though if they do so wrongfully (unjustified) the arrested person is entitled to compensation. It is also similar to "at will" employment, yes the employer can terminate you for any or no reason though they cannot rightfully terminate an employee based on discrimination, retaliation, etc.
In a contractual agreement such as with video games, it falls under contract law and with contract law in regard to a breach by one party, the other is entitled to compensation and or remedy. After the agreement is made (the player accepting the terms) and as long as the player follows the rules/terms the publisher cannot rightfully deny them access to the game outside of maintenance, etc. or simply claim the player breached the contract to then try and rightfully terminate the agreement (suspend/ban the account), they have to give a reason and that reason must be valid (such as with a player actually breaking the rules/terms) regardless if the TOS states that the publisher can terminate an account for any or no reason. It helps prevents abuse and discrimination against players.
In regard to Neverwinter and the case with the player that played for long periods of time and didn't get their account suspended/banned until after they stopped spending money Cryptic would have to disprove any claim(s) of discrimination in order to prove/justify why action was not taken on the account while money was being spent though action was taken after money stopped being spent, especially when there are other players that claim/supposedly play for long periods of time, don't spend money and are not actioned against (discrimination). If all players that play for long periods of time regardless if they spend money or not do not have their accounts suspended/banned that is discrimination and a breach of the contractual agreement in part due to all players not being held to the same standards.
Sure, in this country you can attempt to take anyone to court for just about anything (as long as you have money for an attorney). But see if you can find any examples of players taking action successfully against a publisher on a ToS-related issue. I wasn't able to find any successful examples.
When it comes to things where the other party is clearly in the wrong and you have reliable evidence to support your claim(s) an attorney/lawyer isn't required, you can go to court and speak on your own behalf instead of paying someone to do it for you.
Chatted with a player online that claimed they took a settlement from Cryptic in regard to an unjustified ban. So yea, players apparently do go up against publishers and arguably at least some of those situations are settled out of court which don't get much press, if any. What tends to happen though is players feel that they have no standing or that it will cost too much to try and pursue compensation from the publisher which is exactly what publishers count on when they are in the wrong.
ToS are not as solid as people are making them out to be, surprisingly it is players that are the front runners with perpetuating the supposed "helplessness" of players against abusive/contract breaching publishers. Arguably no one here would simply take an unjustified suspension/ban lying down especially after they have invested money and thousands of hours into an account.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
AD sinks that target multiple players simultaneously vs one here and there are arguably effective as well, if not more.
A percentage of each bid being taken out of the game for AH AD sinks would "help" remove AD from the economy. Being that the item(s) are being introduced to the game artificially (directly through the AH) with the intent of removing AD from the economy, it costing players simply to bid even if they don't win the item would make sense, similar to a raffle. Players would be encouraged to make "thoughtful" bids instead of simply whatever the game suggests/prompts.
Then again it's "funny" that lowering AD generation multiple times over for players overall (Mod 14 account-wide 100k RAD refine cap and one character daily bonuses) was rolled out first rather than implementing AD sinks initially...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
So what you are saying is, if I spend $200 real money and purchase 23,000 Zen, that Zen is not mine?
Also, the $15,000 was not pulled out of thin air, here's how it works:
900,000,000 AD = 1,800,000 Zen - @ 500 AD/Zen
1,800,000 Zen = 78.26 23,000 Zen Packs
78.26 23,000 Zen Packs @ $200 a piece equals about $15,652.
If those ZENs are yours try to sell them back for real money...... good luck with that. Your dollars are yours and do have a value - but all kind of MMOs are place that any money put in do not bring you anything of value as you cant own any part of it. Sure you can try to sell in game items or even account on tird party sites - but that is illegal according to EULA and you do that on your own risk.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them.
23.1*cut* You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials, nor may you assist others in doing so, except as expressly authorized by us. We do not recognize any transfers occurring outside of the Service of anything related to the Service.
Though with that being stated and to clarify the previous "yes and no" statement, any time/energy/money investments players put into an account does have "value" and cannot be taken from players without a valid reason(s).
If a publisher, etc. restricts your access to an account that you have invested time/energy/money into without a valid reason(s) they actually have stolen from you because you essentially can't get those things back/enjoy what those investments can/will provide to you in-game.
4.12 Please note that regardless of any notice, we reserve the right to discontinue the Service or to terminate or suspend your Account at any time in our sole discretion, for any reason, or for no reason.
24.2 ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND NON REFUNDABLE. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. ZEN AND THE RIGHT TO USE APPLICABLE ZEN ARE NON-TRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR PART. THE RIGHT TO USE ZEN IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE LICENSE TO USE THE SERVICE AND GAME.
26.1 FOR ANY REASON WE MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, BLOCK ACCESS TO OR DELETE THE SERVICE OR ANY ACCOUNT OR PART THEREOF, BY GIVING YOU NOTICE OF SUCH WITHIN THE TIME PERIOD SPECIFIED WHEN YOU CREATED AN ACCOUNT OR JOINED A SERVICE, OR IF NO SUCH TIME PERIOD WAS SPECIFIED, THEN WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE DATE SUCH NOTICE IS PROVIDED TO YOU BY EMAIL OR IS POSTED ON THE WEBSITE OR INTERACTIVE AREA BY US.
26.3 For the avoidance of doubt, you hereby acknowledge that we have the sole discretion with respect to termination of your Account, even if there are credits remaining on your Account. The termination of your Account entails the termination of the license to use the Service or any part thereof (see section 8).
26.6 In the event your Account is terminated for any reason, or for no reason, no refund will be granted, no online time or other credits (e.g., points in an online game) will be credited to you or converted to cash or other form of reimbursement, and you will have no further access to your Account. Any delinquent or unpaid accounts or accounts with unresolved disputes must be settled before we may allow you to register again.
In summary:
They can close your account for any reason or no reason
Any money you spend on this game is not refundable and any benefits that you are licensed in return have no monetary value by definition
Just to reiterate, they have sole discretion about closing accounts
And if they close your account, you don't have any right to compensation for anything related to the account, including time or money spent
Comments
Your idea would absolutely HAMSTER kill the game the day the servers came back up with that kind of change implemented on them.
And please do not forget that most of that illegal money is tried to be washed - like mafia model.
Just imagine that:
He stole dozen of legendary mounts out of players in game. (Yes it was possible with long gone (thank god) a AH glitch) then he tranfers them to other accounts - waited some time then grab them sold them and began playing with AH or MC.
And no - its not a joke.
Unfortuantely not all such players and all their accounts were cought and perma banned.
This game have literally 2 problems leading to current economy model and status.
1st - One was at least few occasions witch allowed players to make a lot of AD in the ways not intended by the devs.
2nd - one is never balanced ratio between creating AD in legal ways in compare to the game AD sinks shortage.
And no posting Knoxes like devs try right now wont change anything. Reworking a living economy model is much harder then that. And to be honest its gona be a tough job for the devs to do that not hurting honest players along the way.
Before bid:
After bid:
(Thanks to the person who provided the picture, I don't play xbox)
I know a few people, including myself, who would spend over 100m on these. For bonus points, post a single mythic tool that works on every profession, similar to forgehammer, which can be used in addition to forgehammer. It would sell for whatever the max ad bid is, even if it was 2 billion.
Minor digression, 17! leg tools on xbox ah
Ad sink is to craft with 75% chance isnt it ?:).
Before masterwork we used to craft items with 60% chance and now what want easy 95% ? they better remove the legendary tools.
Since devs announced that they are not happy with a current state of the in game economy almost all of topics finnaly end up discussing this. What is even more funny - most peeps see that there is an issue, and they would like it to be dealt with while, at the same time they dont want any major changes.
We should talk about Knox here while we talk about legendary tools. Not that it is even better idea for a sink then Knox
But then again.
And one more thing @omegarealities#7219 - technicly speaking you dont own anything in this game. Its a kind of a loan. So no Crytpic wouldnt steal anything form a players - all of it belongs to them. ANd if you count it in real life money - are you gold seller that you estimate loss of 15k $?
In comparison, the wealthy players in this game are, for the most part, players that craft. Their primary interest lies in masterwork and they are more then willing to drop 100m+ on tools. If you are trying to sell items as AD sinks, aiming items towards them would be a much better way of going about it, since even a single tool in an uncapped AD storage scenario could go for more then the AD value of all the knoxes combined, even if it is still not a good AD sink.
Making every stat on gear variable and then rolling for them with cubes of augmentation would be a good idea. Adding more items that are similar in their functionality to marks of potency to the WB would be a good idea. Anything that consumes massive amounts of AD is a good idea and removing 100m from the economy is doing pretty much nothing. Needle, Mortar, Stone, Crucible, Hammer and Chisel I have seen on pc at some stage or another.
Also, the $15,000 was not pulled out of thin air, here's how it works:
900,000,000 AD = 1,800,000 Zen - @ 500 AD/Zen
1,800,000 Zen = 78.26 23,000 Zen Packs
78.26 23,000 Zen Packs @ $200 a piece equals about $15,652.
If a publisher, etc. restricts your access to an account that you have invested time/energy/money into without a valid reason(s) they actually have stolen from you because you essentially can't get those things back/enjoy what those investments can/will provide to you in-game.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
https://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms In summary:
It's a game, offered for free, that players choose to play. Cryptic / PWE is stealing *nothing* by letting you on to the servers. It's a choice you and I make on our own. At the end of the day, though, the assets - art, sound, all the pixels and data - is theirs.
Will they have Sergeant Bunny in Bunnies & Borrows?! And how much will it cost?
P.S My forum armchair pov on ToS:
ToS is rules of the game/service. ToS is not law itself but formed with them in mind and can be legally binding. Where actions in/outside of game conflict with ToS they are/will/can be subject to interpretation by the owners etc. who can take w/e action they want. However if that interpretation/action is disputed then based on law a decision can/will be made to resolve it if parties can not come to an agreement.
Imo if you are just playing the game you shouldn't be worried about such things although I do understand where people talk of the games direction etc. I have not experienced such extremes in all my time playing any games for many years (famous last words), not to say that they don't exist or never happened to others. My 2c.
Essentially every contract exist upon the principle of "good faith" and that principle exists for a very specific reason which is to prevent abuse of one or more parties involved.
With that logic there could/would be so much abuse in regard to contractual agreements and none would ever be able to go to court simply because of TOS yet players can/do file court cases against publishers, etc. and win...
Just because a game's TOS states a company, etc. can do XYZ doesn't mean that they actually or rightfully can. In the case of a video game, a company, etc. can't just go around closing the accounts of players without reason, doing so will go directly against the principle of good faith and if the player(s) take it upon themselves to get a court involved the company will have to provide grounds for their action(s), they couldn't just be like "well our terms of service states we can do XYZ", well they could, but it wouldn't be a good look for them.
As long as a player is playing within the rules they are keeping up their end of the contractual agreement and the publisher can't simply single them out and restrict their access to the game without a valid reason. If a game is shut down, etc. for ALL players essentially that is within the power of the publisher though closing/banning accounts without a valid reason while the game is still up and running for others is not.
Anytime you put time/energy/money into something it is an investment period. People that work jobs are invested into by their employer(s) and vice versa, there's a trade-off, their time/energy in exchange for money. If the employer fails/refuses to pay a person for their work they are not acting in good faith and are breaching the employment agreement. Same thing with a video game, your T/E/M is invested into the game in return for progress/continued enjoyment of the game while it remains up and running and your investments cannot be rightfully taken from you without valid reason(s).
Just like with amusement parks, most if not all have a notice(s) that state "enter or ride at your own risk" though if someone is hurt due to negligence on behalf of the park then the injured party is entitled to compensation regardless of how many notices are posted and or what they state. A number of people and or their families have gotten compensation for injuries sustained at an amusement park in regard to negligence, by that logic none of them would have received compensation simply because of the notice(s).
ToS/notices do NOT protect a company, etc. from behaving dishonorably, negligently and or acting without good faith and closing the account of a player without a valid reason while the game is still up and running for others is not acting in good faith regardless if the ToS states that they can.
Again, as long as a player is playing within the rules they are keeping up their end of the contractual agreement and the publisher can't simply single them out and restrict their access to the game without a valid reason.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
They absolutely can close your account, for no reason at all or citing that you "violated the ToS," and you have no recourse.
Business generally have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason except for a narrowly defined set of protected characteristics (race, gender, etc.).
Sure, in this country you can attempt to take anyone to court for just about anything (as long as you have money for an attorney). But see if you can find any examples of players taking action successfully against a publisher on a ToS-related issue. I wasn't able to find any successful examples.
ten million ad this would equal ten platinum, Say you have 100mil ad that would be 100 platium, So they make the platinum, gold, silver, copper worth something. So one hundred coppers equals 1 silver, one hundred silvers equals one gold, one hundred gold equals one platinum. So basically they can work in such a system, that would take some getting use to. I think it would be wise to change the system all together and compensate players for their trouble. People might be mad people might be upset but it would be better.
Also got to consider this too, a lot of people are just not buying a lot of zen and exchanging it. More the other way around, thus zax can be stuck for weeks while new zen is handed out by new players buying ad. Two much ad not enough zen, they can fix this in many different ways, this is why they put in the account wide limit. Taking players ad is just one suggestion, but preferably not the only solution. The preferred solution would be to switch out the ah currency with something more lore friendly like Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper. For everyday trading and auction housing. While making AD a rare currency, that can be traded for zen as it now but they need to remove all the current ad then while giving all the players compensation with coin then add in a new system for gathering it. Maybe they are shards or a special form of diamonds that must be mined like Dil is in star trek online. So there would not be billions of ad, maybe at the most 100k charater limit on ad gathered by mining maybe with a limit like stos, 8000 per day on one character. This would be a much better deal for us and they can sell unbound enchanted keys in zen store and allow us to sell them to other players again.
Just like with police, yes they can arrest you simply if they feel like it though if they do so wrongfully (unjustified) the arrested person is entitled to compensation. It is also similar to "at will" employment, yes the employer can terminate you for any or no reason though they cannot rightfully terminate an employee based on discrimination, retaliation, etc.
In a contractual agreement such as with video games, it falls under contract law and with contract law in regard to a breach by one party, the other is entitled to compensation and or remedy. After the agreement is made (the player accepting the terms) and as long as the player follows the rules/terms the publisher cannot rightfully deny them access to the game outside of maintenance, etc. or simply claim the player breached the contract to then try and rightfully terminate the agreement (suspend/ban the account), they have to give a reason and that reason must be valid (such as with a player actually breaking the rules/terms) regardless if the TOS states that the publisher can terminate an account for any or no reason. It helps prevents abuse and discrimination against players.
In regard to Neverwinter and the case with the player that played for long periods of time and didn't get their account suspended/banned until after they stopped spending money Cryptic would have to disprove any claim(s) of discrimination in order to prove/justify why action was not taken on the account while money was being spent though action was taken after money stopped being spent, especially when there are other players that claim/supposedly play for long periods of time, don't spend money and are not actioned against (discrimination). If all players that play for long periods of time regardless if they spend money or not do not have their accounts suspended/banned that is discrimination and a breach of the contractual agreement in part due to all players not being held to the same standards. When it comes to things where the other party is clearly in the wrong and you have reliable evidence to support your claim(s) an attorney/lawyer isn't required, you can go to court and speak on your own behalf instead of paying someone to do it for you.
Chatted with a player online that claimed they took a settlement from Cryptic in regard to an unjustified ban. So yea, players apparently do go up against publishers and arguably at least some of those situations are settled out of court which don't get much press, if any. What tends to happen though is players feel that they have no standing or that it will cost too much to try and pursue compensation from the publisher which is exactly what publishers count on when they are in the wrong.
ToS are not as solid as people are making them out to be, surprisingly it is players that are the front runners with perpetuating the supposed "helplessness" of players against abusive/contract breaching publishers. Arguably no one here would simply take an unjustified suspension/ban lying down especially after they have invested money and thousands of hours into an account.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
A percentage of each bid being taken out of the game for AH AD sinks would "help" remove AD from the economy. Being that the item(s) are being introduced to the game artificially (directly through the AH) with the intent of removing AD from the economy, it costing players simply to bid even if they don't win the item would make sense, similar to a raffle. Players would be encouraged to make "thoughtful" bids instead of simply whatever the game suggests/prompts.
Then again it's "funny" that lowering AD generation multiple times over for players overall (Mod 14 account-wide 100k RAD refine cap and one character daily bonuses) was rolled out first rather than implementing AD sinks initially...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Y If those ZENs are yours try to sell them back for real money...... good luck with that.
Your dollars are yours and do have a value - but all kind of MMOs are place that any money put in do not bring you anything of value as you cant own any part of it. Sure you can try to sell in game items or even account on tird party sites - but that is illegal according to EULA and you do that on your own risk.
MMOs... now that is a real money sink