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Why Were Mob Trains Eliminated in Dungeons and Lairs?

safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User
edited July 2018 in Player Feedback (PC)
Am I the only one who likes being able to run through a dungeon or lair and be chased by all the mobs I aggro? It makes things more fun.


For Example: If I choose to run to the boss in the Arcane Reservoir, I should need to fight all the mobs I aggroed on the way there. Nothing wrong with that. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it should be.

Comments

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.


    EDIT: Also, have you ever heard of the Zone Mob Trains in the original Everquest? I never played the original Everquest (was old enough, but I wasn't playing MMORPGs at the time). However, I learned about the EQ Zone Mob Trains from EQ players when I played EQ2. When someone started running from mobs in a zone, all other mobs they passed would be aggroed and join in the chase. Eventually the entire zone full of mobs could be chasing you. Trying to escape from the hordes of mobs who would slaughter anyone in their path actually sounds fun to me.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.
    For Dread Spire, I am pretty sure the first group or the first 2 groups (or even more) never came. That was why I said it did lose aggro before.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.
    For Dread Spire, I am pretty sure the first group or the first 2 groups never came. That was why I said it did lose aggro before.
    I'm not sure about that. I was too busy fighting to count all the mobs.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.
    For Dread Spire, I am pretty sure the first group or the first 2 groups never came. That was why I said it did lose aggro before.
    I'm not sure about that. I was too busy fighting to count all the mobs.

    There are a few big guys on the way. If you noticed there were not as many big guys in the end, you know you did not get them all.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • safespacecadet#3341 safespacecadet Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.
    For Dread Spire, I am pretty sure the first group or the first 2 groups never came. That was why I said it did lose aggro before.
    I'm not sure about that. I was too busy fighting to count all the mobs.

    There are a few big guys on the way. If you noticed there were not as many big guys in the end, you know you did not get them all.
    I'll have to take your word for it.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    I think it is the side effect of the Chult aggro nerf.

    So you don't think they intended to change the way mob aggro works in dungeons and mini-dungeons/lairs? Anyway, they need to change it back to how it was.
    I don't think they would spend time on making change to Arcane Reservoir. So, whatever effect in Arcane Reservoir should be an unintentional side effect. On the other hand, I have no objection with the current situation especially in Arcane Reservoir, that just make my weekly AD run faster. I don't mind killing them all but in the past, they were just too slow to come and wasted my time waiting for them.

    For those mini dungeon, my toons just do door to door. You did not fight all the mobster in the past neither (if we are talking about door to door). You fought most of them and some did not come. Now, it is just less. Probably, related to the range and more giving up chasing you mid way now.
    The same thing happens in leveling dungeons. The mob aggro is basically just like, or almost like, normal zone mob aggro. I don't care if it makes it easier for me or other people. Mobs in dungeons and lairs should not lose aggro no matter how far we run from them. That's part of what makes dungeons more difficult.

    Wanting or accepting changes that make things easier or more convenient is part of how MMORPGs get ruined. People who have been playing for years might not mind this, but what about the experience of new players?

    I just wanted to point out losing aggro in dungeon is not new because it always loss aggro way before mod 14. The difference now is it lose more. New player usually does not do door to door.
    Eventually a newer player may try it though. I don't remember any examples of losing aggro in dungeons before. In the past, I could run from the 2nd boss to the last door in Gray Wolf Den and be chased by every mob I aggroed. Or I could run to the end in the Dread Spire and have to fight every mob I aggroed along the way in the last room before the boss. That's the way it should be. I don't mind if senseless time sinks get changed, but challenge shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of convenience.

    And I remember the PK speed runs. Those were fun, once you learned how to do it.
    For Dread Spire, I am pretty sure the first group or the first 2 groups never came. That was why I said it did lose aggro before.
    I'm not sure about that. I was too busy fighting to count all the mobs.

    There are a few big guys on the way. If you noticed there were not as many big guys in the end, you know you did not get them all.
    I'll have to take your word for it.
    Another one that is easier to spot is Phantasmal Fortress. The very first group never come. They chase you for a while but they return after you pass the tunnel after that room.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    I miss not being able to fight everything at the end in the weekly quests. It means less RP for me because I won't waste time to stop midway to ensure I get everything.

    I suspect they did this for the new players in barovia. The vistani gear allows then to reasonably quest there. But they are still very weak and if they had to cut and run, it would be impossible to get away without this change.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    I think it's fine as it is.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,458 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    EDIT: Also, have you ever heard of the Zone Mob Trains in the original Everquest? I never played the original Everquest (was old enough, but I wasn't playing MMORPGs at the time). However, I learned about the EQ Zone Mob Trains from EQ players when I played EQ2. When someone started running from mobs in a zone, all other mobs they passed would be aggroed and join in the chase. Eventually the entire zone full of mobs could be chasing you. Trying to escape from the hordes of mobs who would slaughter anyone in their path actually sounds fun to me.

    "CHOO-CHOO! TRAIN!!!! Move it or lose it!!!"

    I spent a LOT of time in Crushbone.

    The problem with trains though is that they were a really easy way for griefing. I remember players starting trains on purpose just to grief everyone else.
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  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    A friend of mine was a high-level / end-game-ish monk, so I learned all about the intricacies of pulling from listening to / watching him. (Monks could feign death to wipe aggro, so were wanted as pullers, as they could separate mobs from the pack). "Train to zone!" was the worst thing you could hear, as it meant that someones run had gone very, very wrong - there were no instances in EQ, remember, folks.

    Which makes me realize how much inherent cooperation there was back then - multiple guilds scheduling for who gets the next crack at a boss when they spawn (measured in hours or days), with a backup guild there in case the first didn't have the numbers present... Truly crazy.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    EDIT: Also, have you ever heard of the Zone Mob Trains in the original Everquest? I never played the original Everquest (was old enough, but I wasn't playing MMORPGs at the time). However, I learned about the EQ Zone Mob Trains from EQ players when I played EQ2. When someone started running from mobs in a zone, all other mobs they passed would be aggroed and join in the chase. Eventually the entire zone full of mobs could be chasing you. Trying to escape from the hordes of mobs who would slaughter anyone in their path actually sounds fun to me.

    "CHOO-CHOO! TRAIN!!!! Move it or lose it!!!"

    I spent a LOT of time in Crushbone.

    The problem with trains though is that they were a really easy way for griefing. I remember players starting trains on purpose just to grief everyone else.
    "C'mon ride that train, just come and ride it!"
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User

    Am I the only one who likes being able to run through a dungeon or lair and be chased by all the mobs I aggro? It makes things more fun.


    For Example: If I choose to run to the boss in the Arcane Reservoir, I should need to fight all the mobs I aggroed on the way there. Nothing wrong with that. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it should be.

    I suspect they changed it for the same reason they removed RP from the skill nodes... to stop the bot farmers.
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    @kreatyve do you know if there was an intentional change to lair aggro mechanics? It definitely feels... weird now.
  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,545 Community Moderator
    dupeks said:

    @kreatyve do you know if there was an intentional change to lair aggro mechanics? It definitely feels... weird now.

    I don't have any clue, but I had noticed it myself in Arcane Res. I always run through it and just fight everything in the boss room, but now there's only a few enemies that chase me in there. :( Not quite as fun as it used to be.
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