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[MOD14][TR] Shadow of Demise bug

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  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    @c1k4ml3kc3

    What do you think nowadays, how difficult it could be for the devs to balance the whole game?

    I have no numbers (i think noone has) and i know the devs wouldn't answer, but let's say they are 2 or 3 people working around balancing, and with balancing i am talking about classes, mounts, artifacts, pets...the whole package and the interaction between this whole package.

    And they have to work "against" lets say 50, 100? players around all platforms, testing stuff, testing interactions and so on, to see what is the most effective way to deal with an dungeon.

    My personal experience with SoD, since Mod 14, while soloing in Bonjovia...i have the gear to kill everything fast enough, i don't need it.

    Hunts: We (guildwise) split often enough up in T1/T2 hunts, when i soloing an Target, nothing special, i can hit hard for sure, but nothing special.
    Running together with an AC, well then it is totally different, waiting for the call, when all buffs/debuffs from him is up, yeah then i could hit him instantly in the last phase, wich means the lonely dude at the second spot has often nothing to do, and the two people at the last spot finish him.
    But this shows for me, without class synergys, Tr is in an better spot as before, but nothing special.

    Cradle: I had still the experience, other dps classes (including Gf and no call for nerf from my side against them), hit them faster in the first phase, then my SoD procc can count, wich means 0...0...0.

    TonG: Did only one try, against Orcus i missed the buff spike, i was stupid enough to be pushed away and Natsus Gf hit him in the Phase, so it was more or less an "normal" fight against him.
    This again showed me: Miss the rotation, miss the buffspike and an Tr is still nothing special, just an "normal" dps Class.
    On the other hand for sure, if everything went fine, we could now deal an extreme (maybe to extreme) dps.

    The Tr as Class:
    There are more than 900 Members in the Tr discord channel, spreading knowledge, trying to explain the ideal Rotation, making suggestions across all platforms, for Tr on all platforms, with the introdution taht more and more people play their favourite class better and better.
    And maybe you see now, some of these people, playing far more better then in the past, even without the new SoD procc.
    If you think hitting an Boss with an stealthed Lashing Blade and then waiting for the "puff the magic dragon and boss is down" SoD, you are wrong, for something like this, you still need, a perfect Rotation and still a good buff/debuff party.

    Should the devs looking for the new SoD procc?
    Yes, bc it is not that healthy for the game, but please as others said, nerf us not one more time into the ground or usefulness again.
    Tbh i am playing now my Tr since open beta, i went with him to all ups and downs (well way more downs..) ingame, and i am not that sure if i could stand again an total nerf, even if i love my guildmates running together now for years, and nowadays the people i have met in The Tr discord, but as i said again an extrem nerf...then i think i will qui*.

    Greets
  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I am hopping from one foot to another to raise my TR from cryotube and start to level it! :P
    Fotm player here! :)
    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • demolitioninc#2453 demolitioninc Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.
    1. PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
    2. PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
    3. Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
    4. Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
    5. Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    The issue is, I don't think getting a 1 god damn billion hit on Orcus sounds like a WAI thing.
    I don't mind TRs being good, it just doesn't seem right. What should have been a decent buff (from 50% to 75%, mitigations aside) turned the biggest SoD hit possible from about 400 mil-ish into 1b. That is not a 50% buff. That's a "bit" more. Doing 2.5* more damage with one power is stupid.
  • nooneatzanooneatza Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    And then how will TR's handle solo content and get to lv 70?
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then [6-second damage + SoD] did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x = 1, then previously in Mod 13:

    [6+second damage + SoD] = xy + 0.5xy = 1*20 + 0.5*1*20 = 20+10 = 30 units of damage, with SoD providing 10 units of damage.

    In Mod 14:

    [6+second damage + SoD] = xy + 0.75xy^2 = 1*20 + 0.75*1*20*20 = 20 + 300 = 320 units of damage total, with SoD providing 300 units of damage.

    Hence, with a buff value of 20, SoD is 30 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13. The multiplicative strength of SoD, is actually 1.5 times the buff value, hence is scaleable with more buffs; conversely, SoD multiplies by less with fewer buffs, but still more than Mod 13. Even if the buff value were set to 1 (so the difference in SoD performance between Mod 13 and 14 only reflects the percentage increase from 50% to 75%) SoD will still be 1.5 times stronger.

    So, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~333 million hit.
    Error!

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs debuffs/mitigation twice.
    Post edited by vordayn on
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    vordayn said:

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then SoD did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x at 1, then previously in Mod 13, SoD did 30 units of damage, in Mod 14, they are doing 320 units of damage, hence the combined damage of SoD being around ~10 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13.

    This means, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~300 million hit.

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs twice.
    There is a mixup of buffs, and absolute numbers with multipliers, etc..

    1. If the damage in 6 seconds was high, the SoD will be high, so numbers like 300 million say nothing about the mechanics.
    You are free to look up the multiple one rotation by other classes which were done in the same time frame. Though they don't have an accomulator of damage like SoD so there is big hit + big hit + big hit = dead boss, here it's medium hit, medium hit, medium hit, sum of the hits*modifier = boss dead.

    2. SoD is multiplied by the debuff factor, not buff, buff is uncapped, debuff is capped at 3 (or 4 as effectiveness). So that entire example, and the ~10 is just not correct.

    3. SoD is double dipping into mitigation too, means the damage is reduced twice by 25%

    4. A lot of the noise is about Orcus, and that's mainly because of how bloody course works. Seperate proc gets debuffed, and you get 3 debuffs


    While we didn't ask for that change, and suggested better variants, and as a class TR have totally different issues like scaling issues with stealth and scaling due to 6 seconds. You can see most other DPS classes implode bosses left and right. So please lets put things into proportions..
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then SoD did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x at 1, then previously in Mod 13, SoD did 30 units of damage, in Mod 14, they are doing 320 units of damage, hence the combined damage of SoD being around ~10 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13.

    This means, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~300 million hit.

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs twice.
    There is a mixup of buffs, and absolute numbers with multipliers, etc..

    1. If the damage in 6 seconds was high, the SoD will be high, so numbers like 300 million say nothing about the mechanics.
    You are free to look up the multiple one rotation by other classes which were done in the same time frame. Though they don't have an accomulator of damage like SoD so there is big hit + big hit + big hit = dead boss, here it's medium hit, medium hit, medium hit, sum of the hits*modifier = boss dead.

    2. SoD is multiplied by the debuff factor, not buff, buff is uncapped, debuff is capped at 3 (or 4 as effectiveness). So that entire example, and the ~10 is just not correct.

    3. SoD is double dipping into mitigation too, means the damage is reduced twice by 25%

    4. A lot of the noise is about Orcus, and that's mainly because of how bloody course works. Seperate proc gets debuffed, and you get 3 debuffs


    While we didn't ask for that change, and suggested better variants, and as a class TR have totally different issues like scaling issues with stealth and scaling due to 6 seconds. You can see most other DPS classes implode bosses left and right. So please lets put things into proportions..
    I changed my calculations thinking about it again, but what you call the 'debuff factor' in point (2), do you mean only the cumulative debuff on the enemy applies? I thought that mitigation was the damage resistance of the enemy, and yes, there is the reduction in damage with difference in enemy level, which is what I assumed you are referring to in (3)?
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    vordayn said:

    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then SoD did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x at 1, then previously in Mod 13, SoD did 30 units of damage, in Mod 14, they are doing 320 units of damage, hence the combined damage of SoD being around ~10 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13.

    This means, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~300 million hit.

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs twice.
    There is a mixup of buffs, and absolute numbers with multipliers, etc..

    1. If the damage in 6 seconds was high, the SoD will be high, so numbers like 300 million say nothing about the mechanics.
    You are free to look up the multiple one rotation by other classes which were done in the same time frame. Though they don't have an accomulator of damage like SoD so there is big hit + big hit + big hit = dead boss, here it's medium hit, medium hit, medium hit, sum of the hits*modifier = boss dead.

    2. SoD is multiplied by the debuff factor, not buff, buff is uncapped, debuff is capped at 3 (or 4 as effectiveness). So that entire example, and the ~10 is just not correct.

    3. SoD is double dipping into mitigation too, means the damage is reduced twice by 25%

    4. A lot of the noise is about Orcus, and that's mainly because of how bloody course works. Seperate proc gets debuffed, and you get 3 debuffs


    While we didn't ask for that change, and suggested better variants, and as a class TR have totally different issues like scaling issues with stealth and scaling due to 6 seconds. You can see most other DPS classes implode bosses left and right. So please lets put things into proportions..
    I changed my calculations thinking about it again, but what you call the 'debuff factor' in point (2), do you mean only the cumulative debuff on the enemy applies? I thought that mitigation was the damage resistance of the enemy, and yes, there is the reduction in damage with difference in enemy level, which is what I assumed you are referring to in (3)?
    In your calculations you didn't mitigate, and you mistook buffs and debuff.

    You picked arbitrary number 20 as the multiplier and it's not correct. The buffs go into the base damage, X, and your double dipping will be Y, which is capped! Mathematically at 4, and in practice mostly common at about 2.5, and all is mitigated by 25% twice.

    Meaning that if an attack is base*buff*debuff*0.75 (lvl73 mitigation)
    The SoD will be 0.75 * [base*buff*debuff*0.75] * debuff * 0.75(lvl73 mitigation)

    Which if we take your example where the hit 1, and the buff*debuff is 20 which means, that if we take a favorable conditions for SoD at about debuff 2.5 we will have buffs at 8 you will have 2.5*8 =20 and:

    Attack 1*8*2.5*0.75 = 15
    SoD 0.75*[1*8*2.5*0.75] * 2.5 * 0.75 = 21

    It's indeed higher than the original sum of attacks, but this is 21/15 and not 300/30 or 300/1.


    Overall the big number comes because it uses an overall sum over 6 seconds, spread that into the multiple attacks over those 6 seconds and you suddenly get what other classes were doing for a while now. If someone can one rotation the same orcus in 4 seconds by removing the HP in 4 chunks it's actually higher DPS than TRs 6 second big hit, but the one big hit looks to many more impressive and more 'broken'.
    Again I'm not saying it's bad or good, bug or wai, just that things should be in proportion and how stuff actually works, it's not magic there.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then SoD did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x at 1, then previously in Mod 13, SoD did 30 units of damage, in Mod 14, they are doing 320 units of damage, hence the combined damage of SoD being around ~10 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13.

    This means, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~300 million hit.

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs twice.
    There is a mixup of buffs, and absolute numbers with multipliers, etc..

    1. If the damage in 6 seconds was high, the SoD will be high, so numbers like 300 million say nothing about the mechanics.
    You are free to look up the multiple one rotation by other classes which were done in the same time frame. Though they don't have an accomulator of damage like SoD so there is big hit + big hit + big hit = dead boss, here it's medium hit, medium hit, medium hit, sum of the hits*modifier = boss dead.

    2. SoD is multiplied by the debuff factor, not buff, buff is uncapped, debuff is capped at 3 (or 4 as effectiveness). So that entire example, and the ~10 is just not correct.

    3. SoD is double dipping into mitigation too, means the damage is reduced twice by 25%

    4. A lot of the noise is about Orcus, and that's mainly because of how bloody course works. Seperate proc gets debuffed, and you get 3 debuffs


    While we didn't ask for that change, and suggested better variants, and as a class TR have totally different issues like scaling issues with stealth and scaling due to 6 seconds. You can see most other DPS classes implode bosses left and right. So please lets put things into proportions..
    I changed my calculations thinking about it again, but what you call the 'debuff factor' in point (2), do you mean only the cumulative debuff on the enemy applies? I thought that mitigation was the damage resistance of the enemy, and yes, there is the reduction in damage with difference in enemy level, which is what I assumed you are referring to in (3)?
    In your calculations you didn't mitigate, and you mistook buffs and debuff.

    You picked arbitrary number 20 as the multiplier and it's not correct. The buffs go into the base damage, X, and your double dipping will be Y, which is capped! Mathematically at 4, and in practice mostly common at about 2.5, and all is mitigated by 25% twice.

    Meaning that if an attack is base*buff*debuff*0.75 (lvl73 mitigation)
    The SoD will be 0.75 * [base*buff*debuff*0.75] * debuff * 0.75(lvl73 mitigation)

    Which if we take your example where the hit 1, and the buff*debuff is 20 which means, that if we take a favorable conditions for SoD at about debuff 2.5 we will have buffs at 8 you will have 2.5*8 =20 and:

    Attack 1*8*2.5*0.75 = 15
    SoD 0.75*[1*8*2.5*0.75] * 2.5 * 0.75 = 21

    It's indeed higher than the original sum of attacks, but this is 21/15 and not 300/30 or 300/1.


    Overall the big number comes because it uses an overall sum over 6 seconds, spread that into the multiple attacks over those 6 seconds and you suddenly get what other classes were doing for a while now. If someone can one rotation the same orcus in 4 seconds by removing the HP in 4 chunks it's actually higher DPS than TRs 6 second big hit, but the one big hit looks to many more impressive and more 'broken'.
    Again I'm not saying it's bad or good, bug or wai, just that things should be in proportion and how stuff actually works, it's not magic there.
    Thank you. I did indeed mistake the buffs and debuffs, and did not know that the SoD procs only took into account debuffs/mitigation twice.

    The SoD procs work a little bit differently to how I imagined it.

    From the patch notes:


    Trickster Rogue

    Shadow of Demise now deals 75% of the damage that triggered it as a 5-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect.

    When Shadow of Demise ends, it now deals 75% of the damage dealt over its duration, increased from 50%. However, this value is now calculated based on mitigated damage, rather than damage before mitigation. As a result, compared to before, Shadow of Demise deals less damage against enemies with high damage reduction, and more damage against enemies with low damage reduction.

    The DoT SoD component has an 5 second tick, with each tick per second doing 1/5 of 75% of the encounter in stealth which triggered it.

    The final SoD proc at 6 seconds, includes all the damage leading from that initial encounter in stealth (inclusive) and all other damage to everything within that window (including adds).
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    micky1p00 said:

    vordayn said:

    SoD double dipping debuffs, simple solution for right now, reduce it from 75% to 25%.
    That will buy time to properly rebalance the class, w/o totally breaking it for right now.
    For PvE solo there are other powers and abilities, just use loadouts.

    I don't think even reducing it to 25% is enough due to the way the buffs are multiplicative.

    Before how it worked was, if a TR was doing 'x' damage, with buffs being 'y', then SoD did xy+0.5xy = 1.5xy damage (as the SoD proc was from pre-buffed, pre-mitigated damage, but did benefit from buffs/mitigation on proccing).

    Now in Mod 14, a TR is doing xy + 0.75xy^2 damage (assuming they have enough armor pen to overcome DR).

    Say that all the buffs/debuffs multiplies damage by 20 (y=20), and set x at 1, then previously in Mod 13, SoD did 30 units of damage, in Mod 14, they are doing 320 units of damage, hence the combined damage of SoD being around ~10 times stronger in Mod 14 compared to Mod 13.

    This means, even if you change the % of damage calculated into Sod from 0.75 to 0.25, SoD will still be around 1/3 of the current SoD proccing now, hence a 1 billion SoD will still be a ~300 million hit.

    Every time the Devs add another multiplier to damage, they are overtuning the end-game ability to demolish the content. But the main problem is that the base damage of the TR in those 6 seconds are multipled by the multiplicative buffs twice.
    There is a mixup of buffs, and absolute numbers with multipliers, etc..

    1. If the damage in 6 seconds was high, the SoD will be high, so numbers like 300 million say nothing about the mechanics.
    You are free to look up the multiple one rotation by other classes which were done in the same time frame. Though they don't have an accomulator of damage like SoD so there is big hit + big hit + big hit = dead boss, here it's medium hit, medium hit, medium hit, sum of the hits*modifier = boss dead.

    2. SoD is multiplied by the debuff factor, not buff, buff is uncapped, debuff is capped at 3 (or 4 as effectiveness). So that entire example, and the ~10 is just not correct.

    3. SoD is double dipping into mitigation too, means the damage is reduced twice by 25%

    4. A lot of the noise is about Orcus, and that's mainly because of how bloody course works. Seperate proc gets debuffed, and you get 3 debuffs


    While we didn't ask for that change, and suggested better variants, and as a class TR have totally different issues like scaling issues with stealth and scaling due to 6 seconds. You can see most other DPS classes implode bosses left and right. So please lets put things into proportions..
    I changed my calculations thinking about it again, but what you call the 'debuff factor' in point (2), do you mean only the cumulative debuff on the enemy applies? I thought that mitigation was the damage resistance of the enemy, and yes, there is the reduction in damage with difference in enemy level, which is what I assumed you are referring to in (3)?
    In your calculations you didn't mitigate, and you mistook buffs and debuff.

    You picked arbitrary number 20 as the multiplier and it's not correct. The buffs go into the base damage, X, and your double dipping will be Y, which is capped! Mathematically at 4, and in practice mostly common at about 2.5, and all is mitigated by 25% twice.

    Meaning that if an attack is base*buff*debuff*0.75 (lvl73 mitigation)
    The SoD will be 0.75 * [base*buff*debuff*0.75] * debuff * 0.75(lvl73 mitigation)

    Which if we take your example where the hit 1, and the buff*debuff is 20 which means, that if we take a favorable conditions for SoD at about debuff 2.5 we will have buffs at 8 you will have 2.5*8 =20 and:

    Attack 1*8*2.5*0.75 = 15
    SoD 0.75*[1*8*2.5*0.75] * 2.5 * 0.75 = 21

    It's indeed higher than the original sum of attacks, but this is 21/15 and not 300/30 or 300/1.


    Overall the big number comes because it uses an overall sum over 6 seconds, spread that into the multiple attacks over those 6 seconds and you suddenly get what other classes were doing for a while now. If someone can one rotation the same orcus in 4 seconds by removing the HP in 4 chunks it's actually higher DPS than TRs 6 second big hit, but the one big hit looks to many more impressive and more 'broken'.
    Again I'm not saying it's bad or good, bug or wai, just that things should be in proportion and how stuff actually works, it's not magic there.
    Thank you. I did indeed mistake the buffs and debuffs, and did not know that the SoD procs only took into account debuffs/mitigation twice.

    The SoD procs work a little bit differently to how I imagined it.

    From the patch notes:


    Trickster Rogue

    Shadow of Demise now deals 75% of the damage that triggered it as a 5-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect.

    When Shadow of Demise ends, it now deals 75% of the damage dealt over its duration, increased from 50%. However, this value is now calculated based on mitigated damage, rather than damage before mitigation. As a result, compared to before, Shadow of Demise deals less damage against enemies with high damage reduction, and more damage against enemies with low damage reduction.

    The DoT SoD component has an 5 second tick, with each tick per second doing 1/5 of 75% of the encounter in stealth which triggered it.

    The final SoD proc at 6 seconds, includes all the damage leading from that initial encounter in stealth (inclusive) and all other damage to everything within that window (including adds).
    The DoT is a completely separate thing, it only counts the procing encounter, it's not an issue in the discussion so I've omitted that to simplify the example.
  • drunkenatheist#5914 drunkenatheist Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.

    The only hint we have is that Dev comment about not intending for the final hit to be greater than the sum of damage before it, which would suggest that double-dipping on debuffs is not the final intent.

    Finally, as has been pointed out, this is a very visible proc/source of damage. But it's not dramatically out of line with what GF or GWF (or even HR) can offer. It just works / looks differently, and is new (well, new again) this mod.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.

    The only hint we have is that Dev comment about not intending for the final hit to be greater than the sum of damage before it, which would suggest that double-dipping on debuffs is not the final intent.

    Finally, as has been pointed out, this is a very visible proc/source of damage. But it's not dramatically out of line with what GF or GWF (or even HR) can offer. It just works / looks differently, and is new (well, new again) this mod.
    @noworries#8859 this is an important point. Although TRs big damage comes in one hit, GFs, GWFs, HRs, and buggy SWs, can all do about this much damage with the same buffs in the same period of time it take some us to make this work. I hope you will take this into consideration when you modify Shadows of Demise. It isn’t nearly as “game breaking” as some of the bitter CWs would lead everyone to believe. NO TR is one rotating codg. No matter what they say. We tried with three good TRs and couldn’t do it. Take the hyperbole into consideration and look at @blur#5900 ,s suggestion on page one. It’s a good one.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.

    There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.

    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    OK fair, glad it bubbled up now :)

    However, please realize that doing so will drop TRs back down quite a bit on the dps totem pole.

    I don't know that I'm well-positioned to fine-tune, but I recall the reason this all started is it was deemed SoD was kind of under-performing and meh. If all is done is removing the debuff double dips, it will return to meh.
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    Just have in mind that reverting it back to pre-mitigated damage to avoid double dipping again creates a super strong SoD in PvP if you dont plan to remove Piercing from it.
    image
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    Just have in mind that reverting it back to pre-mitigated damage to avoid double dipping again creates a super strong SoD in PvP if you dont plan to remove Piercing from it.
    Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but before all of this nonsense began SoD was based on post-mitigated damage but dealt a piercing final hit (for 50% or whatever).

    And I think that's what's being proposed, except with a buff to 75% and a DoT to help being tagged more noticeable.

    My earlier point is I (maybe wrongly) believe that one of the reasons SoD was tinkered with to begin with was that it was lackluster. And now that we're back, it will be lackluster again (albeit a little better, but probably not enough).

    On live, it's doing 75% * Sum of Debuffs w/ diminishing returns applied (this is the double dip). Which skews it towards high-performing meta groups (where debuffs can account for a lot). It's arguably overtuned on the high end, but I think just 75% alone would again be undertuned.

    I would argue that when removing the double-dip, they should scale up the damage multiplier a bit more to compensate.
  • tilrod2tilrod2 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    blur#5900 said:

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    Just have in mind that reverting it back to pre-mitigated damage to avoid double dipping again creates a super strong SoD in PvP if you dont plan to remove Piercing from it.
    But wouldnt the removing of the piercing be a nerf for TRs, which dont reach the dr cap?
    They struggle already in my opinion.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    If a TR has insufficient Armor Pen in PVE, they ought to struggle. Every decent guide for DPS always stresses Armor Pen as the most important stat.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    talon1970 said:

    @c1k4ml3kc3

    What do you think nowadays, how difficult it could be for the devs to balance the whole game?

    The devs or as dev representative already explained that any if all changes made to a class will be drastic and either dramatically increase or decrease a class power over a prolonged periods of time, like at least 6 months up to two years as they do not have the resources to meddle with little damage calculations as those take more time. On a side note balancing things out was never really solid in the past as it introduced more problems for some class around since each class wants to be "the special one".
    To balance things out really depends in the end on the content provided, so balancing a class and content is the thing devs need to focus upon.
    I've stated already this many times, but the perma-resistance of the enemies and high hitting damage makes people to intentionally choose debuffing classes more as well as paladins. Clearly, those are not really played by the people since people actually prefer a bit more action from a game that allows it. People want to express their skill by showing how good they can manage dps and self-preservation in horrid situations.

    Even after 6 mods with the necessity for the paladins and clerics around, those are still in need in much content, even with the fact that their skills are seriously overpowered to a point where a dungeon run is basically not heard of without the combination of the two. This whole system is seriously flawed and is one of the main reasons why I do not go to dungeons anymore. I occasionally do a CN once or twice a month, but that's it. I just do not find dungeons to be worth my time with horrible RNG and party management. You either go with a solid team or you do not go at all.
    talon1970 said:

    I have no numbers (i think noone has) and i know the devs wouldn't answer, but let's say they are 2 or 3 people working around balancing, and with balancing i am talking about classes, mounts, artifacts, pets...the whole package and the interaction between this whole package.

    And they have to work "against" lets say 50, 100? players around all platforms, testing stuff, testing interactions and so on, to see what is the most effective way to deal with an dungeon.

    This is information that is not available to the public AFAIK. And shouldn't be available as developers are not really at liberty to take great changes upon themselves since they have to work for higher-ups first and then the rest of the things with the already available resources at their end without exponentially increasing the size of the game itself. Ever since MOD13 hit I can clearly see that MORE dev work was done. It is as if we're continuing from MOD2 in terms of the dev power. I'd say that more people are involved in the process but probably also some people who occasionally are put into the workflow as per needed.
    Regardless of that, the recent content has been the best and as long as it goes far away from a disaster that was MOD6 it should be fine IMHO.
    talon1970 said:

    If you think hitting an Boss with an stealthed Lashing Blade and then waiting for the "puff the magic dragon and boss is down" SoD, you are wrong, for something like this, you still need, a perfect Rotation and still a good buff/debuff party.

    I'm sorry, would you prefer a Control Wizard hitting hundreds of millions of damage on a random occasion, thus insta-killing a boss here or there? I sincerely doubt it. And I sincerely doubt anyone would like to see a Wizard doing that. You do not need "A perfect rotation", but you do need buffs and in case of this particular power it is doing far more than explained or intended by the tooltip. No matter how much argument you put forward that a TR needs a buff, this is simply said NOT the way to go around it regardless of how random spiked the SOD damage can or will be in a dungeon run. The point is that it is broken and it needs to be balanced out.

    The actual TR buffs are needed and I'm stating this for god knows how many times in the recent month, I always call for TR buffs in the new content as I know how hard it is for TRs to work in solo environment.
    talon1970 said:

    Should the devs looking for the new SoD procc?

    They already are as stated on a previous page. And that is a good news.
    talon1970 said:

    Yes, bc it is not that healthy for the game, but please as others said, nerf us not one more time into the ground or usefulness again.

    This is not a nerf. This is far away from a nerf. This is fixing the non-intended buggy exploit.

    A nerf would be when a power is working WAI and then it gets rearranged to the point of non-usefulness. Hopefully you know a bit of the historic background around this, but Wizards are the class that got nerfed to oblivion and back completely changing the whole concept of the class at least three times by now. Even with so many nerfes and balances and fixings, CW is atm one of the most balanced out classes in the game. It is not perfect, but it is the best it can be atm.

    It has been told on Reddit and on other threads that TR buffs will be coming in MOD13-14 and onward. This means that certain height increases will be available, as we've seen, but also means that fixing of certain powers will also take place.
    Just because the class didn't do as much damage as some other class does not mean that a TR should remain with a broken spell since it's finally been a revelation for many TRs. No, that's not the way to do it. TRs need a class-wide buff that actually serve a logical purpose and meaning.

    Please remember, even with it's random occasional spike in damage, this is NOT the way to go around it. It is like satisfying with bread crumbs instead of having an actual dinner just because you're hungry for a long time now.
    If you go around it properly and with actual feedback that can find a good explanation, presentation and sense that will reach the developer teams with arguments and well presented problematic around it you can dine a fine meal with some patience afterwards.

    The TRs are my 2nd favorite class in the game and I know for a fact that they are also the 2nd most balanced out class in the game, they just need a class-range buffs to certain powers in order to be a bit more useful in various content.

    I state this as a SpellStorm Control Wizard who never goes into any dungeon, so if you went to a dungeon, congrats, you're way ahead of my class in terms of beating the content. I do not see what you want to QQ about, tbh. After all, imho more TRs go to dungeons than SpellStorm wizards do. Do you find that to be fair? Simply said the meta oriented itself towards the content. And in that content certain classes have an upper hand not because they're balanced out, but because their powers add more altogether.

    If a TR could add 10.000 - 15.000 Power to the party members you would see TR in dungeons far more frequently.

    The point is that I do not see the necessity for such drama as this is not WAI power. It is still a subject to changes and the faster it happens the better it is for entirety of the game and especially the TRs who won't be forced to build solely for the sake of the SOD.

    I hope you understand this. Have a good time playing.

    Cheers. :)
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • tilrod2tilrod2 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    But as a new TR it isnt easy to get the right amount of dr to make SoD a relevant buff. Other classes like GWF have the same trouble with dr, but they have better selfbuffs.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    Arpen is not exactly that easy for pre bis end-game trs to stack, as they do not get a bonus from ability scores for resistance ignored. Sure once you get over 14k it is easier, but not up to that point without sacrificing too much crit.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    dupeks said:

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.

    There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.

    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    OK fair, glad it bubbled up now :)

    However, please realize that doing so will drop TRs back down quite a bit on the dps totem pole.

    I don't know that I'm well-positioned to fine-tune, but I recall the reason this all started is it was deemed SoD was kind of under-performing and meh. If all is done is removing the debuff double dips, it will return to meh.
    Rogue executioner is in a good spot and he is better than a cw at single target ( and better sometimes) since the 50% demise without the double dip.
    with mod 14 they got a nice change on feature shadowborn to deal 25% damage for the next attack everytime he enter stealth and demise goes up to 75% without a double dip( when they will make the fix).
    5 people know to play tr? that is enough for me .
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    dupeks said:

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.

    There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.

    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    OK fair, glad it bubbled up now :)

    However, please realize that doing so will drop TRs back down quite a bit on the dps totem pole.

    I don't know that I'm well-positioned to fine-tune, but I recall the reason this all started is it was deemed SoD was kind of under-performing and meh. If all is done is removing the debuff double dips, it will return to meh.
    Rogue executioner is in a good spot and he is better than a cw at single target ( and better sometimes) since the 50% demise without the double dip.
    with mod 14 they got a nice change on feature shadowborn to deal 25% damage for the next attack everytime he enter stealth and demise goes up to 75% without a double dip( when they will make the fix).
    5 people know to play tr? that is enough for me .
    Shadowborn is still junk. Accounting for 2-3% of overall damage, it is just awful. I honestly don’t know of a TR still using that feat, and I know quite a few TRs. TRs with 50% SoD beat CW at single target? So, yeah, TRs lose in single target to GFs, buglocks, GWFs, and HRs. Vs mobs, how do we stack? But, sure, I guess if the CW complaints department thinks we are in a good spot with the old 50% SoD, we must be...
    Post edited by sirjimbofrancis on
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    @sirjimbofrancis

    Mod 13 buggy SW still was the weakest striker and still is in mod 14. Neither in mod 13 nor in mod 14 no SW could do about as much damage as a TR can, I felt like commenting as Bug of Hadar, even though makes SW better than it really is, in no way puts the class on par with others, you seem to think it that's the case though.

    As you stated that buggy SW deals as about as much damage as a TR would if having the same buffs, it is worth noting that Bug of Hadar is a glitchy debuff thing so in no way, shape or form compares with SoD double benefiting from buffs and debuffs (and even without that, SW still is weaker), it is nowhere near as powerful, especially if you consider that SW damage potential is considerably lower than that of other strikers due to a number of reasons that have been explained over and over again here in the official forums and in other websites, too.

    Hopefully @balanced#2849 will patch Bug of Hadar besides making SW dps specs competitive with other classes; let's see how @noworries#8859 handles this SoD thing.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    @jaime4312#3760 I was talking about the 50% SoD described above, not the way SoD is working mod 14. SWs are certainly not in a good place right now and you were right to correct me. Thank you.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2018

    dupeks said:

    dupeks said:

    How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>

    It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.

    But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
    The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.

    There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.

    We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
    OK fair, glad it bubbled up now :)

    However, please realize that doing so will drop TRs back down quite a bit on the dps totem pole.

    I don't know that I'm well-positioned to fine-tune, but I recall the reason this all started is it was deemed SoD was kind of under-performing and meh. If all is done is removing the debuff double dips, it will return to meh.
    Rogue executioner is in a good spot and he is better than a cw at single target ( and better sometimes) since the 50% demise without the double dip.
    with mod 14 they got a nice change on feature shadowborn to deal 25% damage for the next attack everytime he enter stealth and demise goes up to 75% without a double dip( when they will make the fix).
    5 people know to play tr? that is enough for me .
    1. Being better than the class you play is not a measurement of good, it just shows your perspective.
    2. If you say that shadowbron is nice, you are definitely not one of those 5.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User

    @sirjimbofrancis



    Mod 13 buggy SW still was the weakest striker and still is in mod 14. Neither in mod 13 nor in mod 14 no SW could do about as much damage as a TR can, I felt like commenting as Bug of Hadar, even though makes SW better than it really is, in no way puts the class on par with others, you seem to think it that's the case though.



    As you stated that buggy SW deals as about as much damage as a TR would if having the same buffs, it is worth noting that Bug of Hadar is a glitchy debuff thing so in no way, shape or form compares with SoD double benefiting from buffs and debuffs (and even without that, SW still is weaker), it is nowhere near as powerful, especially if you consider that SW damage potential is considerably lower than that of other strikers due to a number of reasons that have been explained over and over again here in the official forums and in other websites, too.



    Hopefully @balanced#2849 will patch Bug of Hadar besides making SW dps specs competitive with other classes; let's see how @noworries#8859 handles this SoD thing.

    SoD doesn't double benefit from buffs. Iv'e just was explaining that few posts before. Please. Buffs, and debuffs are totally different animals. Sure it may be nitpicky, but when you have one of the bigger issues in the game as uncapped external buffs vs diminished and capped debuffs, it's not the same.
    If SoD would have double benefited from buffs, it would have been an order of magnitude 'epeenier'
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