Elitism and neverwinter

jeremytheman232 · June 2018

Just trying to see if there are many like me who handle dungeons well but are left out due to the max il people only wanting to play with other max or near max il players. My biggest problem is alot of the item level boosts are crazy or have nothing to do with player skill. I dont have a legendary mount thats alot of lost item level on top of pvp boons that dont mean anything about player skill or ability in non pvp. I earned the tasks i completed in pvp but there are alot of people who cheated/boosted to get theirs. Its sad when im above the il requirements but cannot get into dungeons like t9g. I get people want to farm speed runs but seriously it seems like the requirements set by players is 15-16k plus. Whats worse is to get that higher item level you need to get seals which are obtained from said dungeons.... it would be nice to add incentives or ability to put say a bounty on a dungeon like 1 gmop per person on the team if we complete the dungeon but it dont work due to untrustworthy players. I tried to start a guild that wouldn't exclude people based on il but it didnt go far as people who are high enough to run t9g want the guild boons to be maxed. Its just so frustrating anymore especially because the cost of a legendary mount is crazy in the ah but ive probably spent more zen on keys hoping then i could i spent buying one. Why do i want a legendary mount? The item level boost only the powers are nice but not really game breaking especially half of them that are pretty useless.

thefiresidecat · June 2018

those things do make a difference though. the pvp boon does not make a difference but the stats of a legendary mount DO matter and make a difference. all the things that boost il make a difference in your stats and the better your stats the more damage you do. If you've spent the time/money/effort into getting your toon to 17k what is wrong with wanting to play with other people who have reached the same level? imo under 1500 doesn't really belong in tong. even 1500 is kinda low for tong. it can be done with a full 1500 group (and even easily) but that group really needs to know what they're doing and be built right. I played with one 15600 who did great dps but he had like r7s and 8s in defense and spent all of his money on the offense slots. lol. his offense was equal to mine (near 1700 at the time) but defense wayyyy low. and with a good support crew it was an entirely feasible strategy.

if you are undergeared and want groups find a good guild and play with your guildies.

eclipseblood · June 2018

Im guessing ur a dps, typically just because ur a high item lvl doesnt mean ur going to get into a grp, 14k is just fine as long as u know wat ur doing and everyone is doing their jobs. My advise, build ur own grps, make friends with support players, zone chat isnt ideal for making grps as those channels tend to be elitists when it comes to their grps. Alliance and guild is much better, at least i hope they are.

zephyriah · June 2018

eclipseblood#1326 said:
Im guessing ur a dps, typically just because ur a high item lvl doesnt mean ur going to get into a grp, 14k is just fine as long as u know wat ur doing and everyone is doing their jobs. My advise, build ur own grps, make friends with support players, zone chat isnt ideal for making grps as those channels tend to be elitists when it comes to their grps. Alliance and guild is much better, at least i hope they are.

Alliance and guild is what the group makes of it for better or worse. An example, we have decided in guild chat players may not ask for ilvl for groups and need to take any guildie that asks for an invite if they meet entry and group requirements. If asked however, we do tell members that they should plan to be 2000 ilvl over minimum for most high level dungeons. If they have a problem during the run, it's ok to tell them that they need more experience and ilvl for future runs. If they have no problems, everybody's happy. It is also fine to ask for weird groupings in guild chat, like an all DC, OP etc run.

In alliance chat there is no rule, players may request specific group composition and ilvl minimum.

eclipseblood · June 2018

Mine usually avoids using terms like hdps or item level in alliance/guild, i meant usually those channels are more tolerable with item level

micky1p00 · June 2018

I'm sorry but legendary mount is not the thing that will make or break your IL, you should focus your efforts in other venues.

PvP boons will not go into IL from next mod, so that will not be the issue either.

stinkypiratepete · June 2018

jeremytheman232 said:
Just trying to see if there are many like me who handle dungeons well but are left out due to the max il people only wanting to play with other max or near max il players. My biggest problem is alot of the item level boosts are crazy or have nothing to do with player skill. I dont have a legendary mount thats alot of lost item level on top of pvp boons that dont mean anything about player skill or ability in non pvp. I earned the tasks i completed in pvp but there are alot of people who cheated/boosted to get theirs. Its sad when im above the il requirements but cannot get into dungeons like t9g. I get people want to farm speed runs but seriously it seems like the requirements set by players is 15-16k plus. Whats worse is to get that higher item level you need to get seals which are obtained from said dungeons.... it would be nice to add incentives or ability to put say a bounty on a dungeon like 1 gmop per person on the team if we complete the dungeon but it dont work due to untrustworthy players. I tried to start a guild that wouldn't exclude people based on il but it didnt go far as people who are high enough to run t9g want the guild boons to be maxed. Its just so frustrating anymore especially because the cost of a legendary mount is crazy in the ah but ive probably spent more zen on keys hoping then i could i spent buying one. Why do i want a legendary mount? The item level boost only the powers are nice but not really game breaking especially half of them that are pretty useless.

Typically when I seen comments like this or talk of "elitism", my reply is do your time. Those people put in the time and effort.

frogwalloper · June 2018

Don't play with them.
Host your own - send out a LFG for players under 15K or whatever.
But don't call them elitists. They're not. That term's routinely overused and generally misused in a game like this.

sandukutupu · June 2018

I don't judge people based on item level, item level wasn't made up until the module 6 (aka worse mod ever). It was an attempt to assess ability and it has never been able to do that. I also don't judge people on character level. I have been in dungeons with characters who are doing quite well below level 25. Sometimes the most advice I give on how to make your game more enjoyable is to get good companions early in the game and make them greater. I play only on PC and maybe the XB1 crowd has a different agenda? I am not saying, they are all a bunch of young adults bent on trying to be the best, there are plenty of players like that everywhere. I am not here to increase my IL or become BiS, I play for fun and help other players along the way. Enjoy the game and have fun!

adinosii · June 2018

jeremytheman232 said:
Just trying to see if there are many like me who handle dungeons well but are left out due to the max il people only wanting to play with other max or near max il players. My biggest problem is alot of the item level boosts are crazy or have nothing to do with player skill. I dont have a legendary mount thats alot of lost item level on top of pvp boons that dont mean anything about player skill or ability in non pvp. I earned the tasks i completed in pvp but there are alot of people who cheated/boosted to get theirs. Its sad when im above the il requirements but cannot get into dungeons like t9g. I get people want to farm speed runs but seriously it seems like the requirements set by players is 15-16k plus. Whats worse is to get that higher item level you need to get seals which are obtained from said dungeons.... it would be nice to add incentives or ability to put say a bounty on a dungeon like 1 gmop per person on the team if we complete the dungeon but it dont work due to untrustworthy players. I tried to start a guild that wouldn't exclude people based on il but it didnt go far as people who are high enough to run t9g want the guild boons to be maxed. Its just so frustrating anymore especially because the cost of a legendary mount is crazy in the ah but ive probably spent more zen on keys hoping then i could i spent buying one. Why do i want a legendary mount? The item level boost only the powers are nice but not really game breaking especially half of them that are pretty useless.

Elitism? Well, yes and no. There are a few things to consider here.

First, many of the "elite" players, do not just have the gear, they also have thousands of hours of experience in playing their characters. I am not saying that play time equates to skill, but there is probably some correlation.

Second, the developers are aware of the problems with PvP boons contributing to IL, and that is in fact being removed in the next expansion, which will mean an IL drop of 500+ for many players.

Third, with Mod 14, Seals of the Brave will drop from "easier" content, which will make Primal gear basically the "entry level" gear, which will reduce the gap between "BiS" players and fresh 70s. I am not going to debate whether that is a good thing or not, however.

Now, regarding the 15-16K "minimum", there is a simple reason for the "elitism" you are complaining about.

Many players (including myself) alternate between running with friends/guildmates and random strangers. Now, I know that if I am running with a guild group, and one of the party members is a "newbie", I can expect the run to take a bit long - say 40+ minutes for ToNG, but that is expected and absolutely fine. If I run with a particular group of friends, I know that the run will take 18 minutes or so - I know they have the skill and experience to make it a smooth, fast run However, if I run with a random group of strangers, I don't know what to expect and I do not like wasting my time. The only thing I have to go by is the IL and gear of the other people in the group, so yes, I will be an elitist and choose to run with people that look like they have the experience I want.

Now, this does not mean I only look at IL - in fact, I would probably rather look at "total XP gained" or "total time played" if I had that, but the IL and gear (Exalted weapons? Vivified armor? Sensible enchants?) is simply the only thing that can give me some indication of the skill level of the person in question.

Elitism, or am I just being practical? I do not want to waste my time on a 3-hour ToNG run or one that would eventually fail.

I do realize that this can be a real issue - it's worst for TRs, but can be bad for the other DPS classes as well - with supply exceeding demand, people will pick the best geared players.

I have no solutions or advice, other than establishing a group of friends (or join a good guild) and run with people that think you are "good".

yubit · June 2018

Idk if this would help, but here it goes....

I recently returned to the game, after missing 2 or 3 whole mods, my main was almost 14k back when I left, but now I'm at 16.3k after a month or so without even running T9G or the even newer raid, because I'm scared tbh.

My point being, don't focus on stuff you can't or won't do, there are several ways to raise your IL now, I'm pretty sure I can get to 17k easily without even touching t9g (probably not ideal, but hey! Its possible and kinda easy too)

thefiresidecat · June 2018

you should try to get some tong runs in with guild or something. it's really not that bad. codg is kinda bad on the push pull but some classes have it worse than others imo. I've spent hours in there trying to stick with my hr and on occasion I do... but my dc easy peasy unless i get hit with a lag spike at the wrong moment out of the last 30 or 40 runs Its only happenend 4 times and one of those times the whole team went down at the same time lol. it seems like sw's tend to go down a lot so I think maybe they have a hard time of it too. too much dodge or something. trs seem to do well.

yubit#2497 said:
Idk if this would help, but here it goes....

I recently returned to the game, after missing 2 or 3 whole mods, my main was almost 14k back when I left, but now I'm at 16.3k after a month or so without even running T9G or the even newer raid, because I'm scared tbh.

My point being, don't focus on stuff you can't or won't do, there are several ways to raise your IL now, I'm pretty sure I can get to 17k easily without even touching t9g (probably not ideal, but hey! Its possible and kinda easy too)

kreatyve · June 2018

In my opinion, elitism is an attitude. If you have an high item level and refuse to even help or work with people simply because their item level is not high enough, that is elitism. Having 17k item level does not make you an elitist.

frogwalloper · June 2018

kreatyve said:
In my opinion, elitism is an attitude. If you have an high item level and refuse to even help or work with people simply because their item level is not high enough, that is elitism.

I agree with this, but in some cases I would go so far as to say it's the justifiable version of elitism. People are always using the term in the negative sense, but I'm not sure that's how it was always meant to be used.

In a lot of the cases where someone's exhibiting the negative form of "elitism," I think it's more like scrubbism. Players who just don't have a clue when and where a difference in IL is negligible. It's not like it's that uncommon for an experienced player with a slightly lower IL to outperform a less experienced player with a higher IL.

gradii · June 2018

The part of elitism which is never justifiable is acting rude towards another player due to their item level or level of experience with the game.

thefiresidecat · June 2018

if were are going to get into definitions.. let me unload! lol.

to me it seems like the word "elitist" is very onpar with the word "selfish" in use. (a word that is a personal pet peeve of mine) in that selfish is used as a emotional manipulation tool to guilt someone into doing what they want done, (ironically selfish). When you call someone elitist.. it's because they aren't doing what you want them to do. so it's a derogatory term to try and shame them into acting in a manner that would personally benefit you, (the person using the word elitist)

just being a high level doesn' tmean you have to be an HAMSTER- hat. some high levels are HAMSTER hats. that's just arrogance pure and simple. that isn't elitist. it's just being a jerk. I've seen people who consider themselves better than others in MANY ilvls. I've seen what I consider low levels trying to kick other low levels because they don't meet up to their expectations. (gotta laugh at that) I really think calling someone like that a jerk is a more accurate term than elitist. lol.

any time you start in with the derogatory statements you're just trying to mold things to fit your world and using the threat of someone being seen socially as less than perfect as your whip of choice. this can be done by anyone of any item level.
sometimes it's an ego building tool for the user. Sometimes it's a defensive tool for the user. sometimes it's this sometimes it's that. but it's a tool used to gain something personal.

the word in and of itself; the elite or the elitist shouldn't be a negative word with negative connotations. it's something that people have to earn and not everyone of a high item level should be in the elite. it should be proven with performance. there is no special club for that in neverwinter really though. there is no way to prove your greatness (unless we're talking pvp and I have to laugh at that because of all the reasons) with pve how well you do as a dps is both how well built you are, how well you know your class, and how good your support team is. if you are support I guess you can base it on how well your dps does (to some degree) but it's still a team effort.

you get to know who the jerks are. I just avoid em and play with nicer ppl.

earlgreybeard · June 2018

yubit#2497 said:
Idk if this would help, but here it goes....

I recently returned to the game, after missing 2 or 3 whole mods, my main was almost 14k back when I left, but now I'm at 16.3k after a month or so without even running T9G or the even newer raid, because I'm scared tbh.

My point being, don't focus on stuff you can't or won't do, there are several ways to raise your IL now, I'm pretty sure I can get to 17k easily without even touching t9g (probably not ideal, but hey! Its possible and kinda easy too)

It is rare for me to see someone that approaches the game in a similar way to me.. sure scope it out , improve your ench arti and gear and try it again.. but pushing yourself to run FBI spc,T9 etc (all of which I have completed at least once) just to struggle thru or be potentially kicked for low DPS just becomes a boring exercise in futility.. I quite happily run all the dungeons up to CN with no problems

I like the fact in this game one can run all the storyline content quite easily without having to have r12+ ench in slots.. I am finishing up 8 classes in Omu now and some of them have nothing better than r10.. I like it this, it's challenging and teaches you the class you are playing..

I awhile back I didn't even want to get my chars much past 12kiL because it was just a nice sweet spot where all the content was just hard enough to be enjoyable.. now getting past 14k on my main it is becoming a bit of a yawn again. .. for me nothing is worse than just running through an area melting mobs with no effort... it starts making think about how long I could stay in the game with it like that.

My goal is to get all the classes with decent amounts of defense slotted first.. know what it can take in the hardest areas then worry about bumping the offense up slowly as needed as the game gets harder.

froger · June 2018

I don’t know if it’s elitism or the fact that there is almost always someone better in chat trying to get runs. At 16k with proper boons, feats, class, stats, companions, insignia bonuses, etc. my GWF will out dps toons with 1k ilvl on me, but the fact remains that there are 17K & 18K GWFs looking for runs. So, it is almost impossible to get a group invite. This leaves me with the options of: don’t run content, run with whatever I can find (I’ve spent 4 hours in T9G for it to fail, it blows), run in alliance (which I do sometimes), try to make my own group (see above about 17k & 18Ks), or make a class that is in demand (see my DC).

So, I went with making a cleric and I can almost always get into runs. But, even at 16k, my DC gets rejected for runs. I attribute that to people who don’t understand the class and think only ilvl matters. So, I run the cleric to gear the toon I want to play, my GWF. I just rarely get into the latest content with my GWF.

eclipseblood · June 2018

Its a sad day when my 16k dc gets passed up cuz i dont have r14 quartermasters... feels bad man elitism ftw

thefiresidecat · June 2018

froger#9967 said:
I don’t know if it’s elitism or the fact that there is almost always someone better in chat trying to get runs. At 16k with proper boons, feats, class, stats, companions, insignia bonuses, etc. my GWF will out dps toons with 1k ilvl on me, but the fact remains that there are 17K & 18K GWFs looking for runs. So, it is almost impossible to get a group invite. This leaves me with the options of: don’t run content, run with whatever I can find (I’ve spent 4 hours in T9G for it to fail, it blows), run in alliance (which I do sometimes), try to make my own group (see above about 17k & 18Ks), or make a class that is in demand (see my DC).

So, I went with making a cleric and I can almost always get into runs. But, even at 16k, my DC gets rejected for runs. I attribute that to people who don’t understand the class and think only ilvl matters. So, I run the cleric to gear the toon I want to play, my GWF. I just rarely get into the latest content with my GWF.

how well is your dc built gear wise? are you playing ac or do? at 16k my do got rejected a little but I suspect it was your first problem. too much competition. otoh I was accepted far more often than I was rejected. do's have a lot more flexibility with gear than ac's though. if you are a 16k ac it could be your gear that was hurting you. or it could be competition. a 17 ac is going to have more powershare than a 16k unless they're built really badly. a 16k cleric should have no problems in alliance chat though. that's where I always do 98 percent of my match making. so much better than port. of course depends on your alliance. even at 15k i wasn't having much of a problem getting into tong.

but even now at 17k I still get passed over at times for runs on my dc. competition, something else who knows. I'm not gonna blame it on elitism. I think it's probably competition. the alliance i'm in has no shortage of 18k dos lol

frogwalloper · June 2018

thefiresidecat said:
...I really think calling someone like that a jerk is a more accurate term than elitist. lol... you get to know who the jerks are. I just avoid em and play with nicer ppl.

You're right. Labels are often pretty superfluous. It's pretty black and white for me. A person's either essentially good and trustworthy, or bad and untrustworthy. My mom used to say everyone falls into one of two categories: You're either a giver, or you're a taker. I tend to agree.

earlgreybeard said:
... awhile back I didn't even want to get my chars much past 12kiL because it was just a nice sweet spot where all the content was just hard enough to be enjoyable.. now getting past 14k on my main it is becoming a bit of a yawn again. .. for me nothing is worse than just running through an area melting mobs with no effort... it starts making think about how long I could stay in the game with it like that.

See, to me this is exactly what an elite player looks like.

thefabricant · June 2018

micky1p00 said:
I'm sorry but legendary mount is not the thing that will make or break your IL, you should focus your efforts in other venues.

PvP boons will not go into IL from next mod, so that will not be the issue either.

@micky1p00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4QAnCFd4iw

It eludes you.

froger · June 2018

thefiresidecat said:

how well is your dc built gear wise? are you playing ac or do? at 16k my do got rejected a little but I suspect it was your first problem. too much competition. otoh I was accepted far more often than I was rejected. do's have a lot more flexibility with gear than ac's though. if you are a 16k ac it could be your gear that was hurting you. or it could be competition. a 17 ac is going to have more powershare than a 16k unless they're built really badly. a 16k cleric should have no problems in alliance chat though. that's where I always do 98 percent of my match making. so much better than port. of course depends on your alliance. even at 15k i wasn't having much of a problem getting into tong.

but even now at 17k I still get passed over at times for runs on my dc. competition, something else who knows. I'm not gonna blame it on elitism. I think it's probably competition. the alliance i'm in has no shortage of 18k dos lol

I run either AC or DO depending on the need. DO is easier so I usually run that. I'll have to upload screen shots somewhere, the first place i tried isn't working.

thefiresidecat · June 2018

frogwalloper#6494 said:

thefiresidecat said:
...I really think calling someone like that a jerk is a more accurate term than elitist. lol... you get to know who the jerks are. I just avoid em and play with nicer ppl.
You're right. Labels are often pretty superfluous. It's pretty black and white for me. A person's either essentially good and trustworthy, or bad and untrustworthy. My mom used to say everyone falls into one of two categories: You're either a giver, or you're a taker. I tend to agree.
earlgreybeard said:
... awhile back I didn't even want to get my chars much past 12kiL because it was just a nice sweet spot where all the content was just hard enough to be enjoyable.. now getting past 14k on my main it is becoming a bit of a yawn again. .. for me nothing is worse than just running through an area melting mobs with no effort... it starts making think about how long I could stay in the game with it like that.
See, to me this is exactly what an elite player looks like.

I'm not sure how to un-separate quotes to just respond to the one that I am named in... but I'm just responding to the part I'm named in.

basically. I was just referring to labels to words.. to definitions.. .. not how a person will act 100 percent of the time. I don't think it's so simple as saying someone is a giver or taker end of. ( and there is another element; there is also a non giver which I think people sometimes round into taker when it's not. )

I know personally. I am both. it's all contextual. there are times i'm one of the ugly elitists *using the term in the op's sense of the word* there are times I am not. sometimes all in the same afternoon. it all depends on what my personal goals and constraints are. there are times I am generous.. there are times I'm mercenary. to everything.. turn turn turn.. there is a season turn turn turn....

I am also neither.. neither a borrower or a lender be.. I try to live by that. (and this really is connected to the above giver or taker)

I contain multitudes (so does everyone else)

and that is why I rally against words like selfish and elitist as negative terms. people are more than that and the only reason to use such words is because you want something from another person and are trying to guilt them into doing what YOU want instead of letting them choose for themselves. the only times something like that should honestly matter is if it's really life vs death

frogwalloper · June 2018

How much do you think elements like pvp, and guilds increase the level of toxicity within an MMO community?

thefiresidecat · June 2018

frogwalloper#6494 said:
How much do you think elements like pvp, and guilds increase the level of toxicity within an MMO community?

oh imo it's part of human nature and that so many gamers tend to be young males who have way too much testosterone. lol.

the shooter communities are even worse. guilds are what you make them. there are HAMSTER guilds and there are friendly guilds and all the shades inbetween

dearanyone32 · June 2018

People farm dungeons back to back to back, you cannot blame them for wanting to have the smoothest runs possible.

If you are struggling with runs find a good guild who will help. People always bring up "elitism" anytime they get turned down for a run and play the blame game. I notice a lot of the people saying "no one will run with me at 15k" are only looking for higher item level players instead of finding a group closer to their own item level, which is funny.

tgwolf · June 2018

Problem is that more often it's not an issue of someone being undergeared, in fact they are perfectly geared for the content but the vastly below average skill level of most players means that all they can do is brute force content which is pathetic IMO. This leads to the high iLvL Elitism and further devalues the role of skilled play in the game.

Let's take To9G for example:

The entry level is 12k but obv. no-one really does stuff at min iLvL but anything above 13k in a group and you may as well just say screw it and become a full brute forcing elitist player. This is not to mention how stupidly designed Av. Orcus is, both the other bosses take less than a tenth of the effort he does.

Queues need to have iLvL Total limits added to them, around 1-1.5k over the min iLvL multiplied by the number of players for that Dungeon/Skirmish. If the total iLvL of players in the group exceeds that then you can't run it and you cannot equip items while in the run that would cause it to exceed the limit.

This would help curb elitist behavior and force people to actually learn to play for once.

adinosii · June 2018

tgwolf said:

This would help curb elitist behavior and force people to actually learn to play for once.

This has to be one of the worst ideas I have heard in a long time.

eclipseblood · June 2018

@tgwolf that would just penalized players for actually gearing their characters, plus not being able to swap gear would make loadouts ineffective and different artifacts inefficient. Make utility slots pointless too. If I gotta take off my pants to get this done, np.

thefiresidecat · June 2018

tgwolf said:
Problem is that more often it's not an issue of someone being undergeared, in fact they are perfectly geared for the content but the vastly below average skill level of most players means that all they can do is brute force content which is pathetic IMO. This leads to the high iLvL Elitism and further devalues the role of skilled play in the game.

Let's take To9G for example:

The entry level is 12k but obv. no-one really does stuff at min iLvL but anything above 13k in a group and you may as well just say screw it and become a full brute forcing elitist player. This is not to mention how stupidly designed Av. Orcus is, both the other bosses take less than a tenth of the effort he does.

Queues need to have iLvL Total limits added to them, around 1-1.5k over the min iLvL multiplied by the number of players for that Dungeon/Skirmish. If the total iLvL of players in the group exceeds that then you can't run it and you cannot equip items while in the run that would cause it to exceed the limit.

This would help curb elitist behavior and force people to actually learn to play for once.

this is one of the silliest and most elitist things I've read in quite awhile. this idea has a lot of merit... except for one problem.. it's stoopid.

Elitism and neverwinter

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