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A Question to the Devs about Guild Boons vs. Not

pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
edited April 2018 in General Discussion (PC)
@nitocris83 @mimicking#6533

Are there any internal discussions or plans regarding the giant gulf between players with GH20 Guild Boons vs. those with little or none? I'm not really asking for, or expecting, any details (though they would be welcome), I'm just looking for a simple yes or no. For the record, I'm NOT asking about making it easier to level a guild.

So basically, is the Guild Boon gap something that is thought about internally or is it just considered a closed case?

Thanks.
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Comments

  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,316Member Arc User
    The gap has been brought up before, normally by lower level guild members, and I'll assume the response now will be the same as it normally is for this line of questioning.

    [crickets]
  • ilmenirailmenira Posts: 262Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    it's true that guild members made an effort to level their guilds, but often those that made most effort are gone by now... and people who join anew and under whatever circumstances get access to, say, a level 20 guild, are in a very different position than new gamers without guild or in small guilds. i know the difference from personal experience.

    anyway, i don't care too much about it. i mostly play guildless (bank guild) chars right now, and it's alright for me. i also see the differences dwindling slowly with ever rising game wide IL.

    @gromovnipljesak#8234 no merits last for ever in MMO RPG. the nature of the game is ever new challenges, targets. try playing a BIS modul 6 char now, for instance... same with old guilds merits.

    my guess is there will be no marked intervention, in order not to anger/frustrate big guild public. it will all wear off by itself -- or maybe at some point level 20 guilds will get new challenges, so they can make a big new effort (money and timewise) and gain some new advantage by it.

  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2018

    Ok pterias, you make some good points usually, but [Mod edit: Please keep your disagreement/criticism respectful]? People invested time in their strongholds, so it's obvious that they get more out of it. Common sense, [edited].
    I don't mind having lower guilds get at least something, but [edited].

    I mean, it's like that with the characters too - you invest more time, you become a better player, with better gear etc.

    * edited quote to match moderation

    I'm not making an argument, I'm asking a simple yes or no question.

    To address some of your criticisms though: First, I've never wanted a free ride. If I wanted a free ride, I'd just join an already high level guild and freeload like everyone else does (and like everyone else tells me I SHOULD do). I've always been dumbfounded about how people react so ferociously to someone wanting to grind away in their own little corner, insulted by someone who doesn't want to freeload off of your (the generic "you") hard work. I've genuinely given the Guild Evangelists(tm) the benefit of the doubt for years, but the consistent reactions leave me no choice but to think most people don't actually want to be in your guilds, they just do it for the boons, or at least you all are afraid so.

    Second, Cryptic is never going to do anything on my behalf, that's not even an option, so what harm is there is asking if they have anything in mind or not? I'm getting at a crossroads and am trying to make a decision about my place here and whether I have one. This subject is one of the bigger variables in my equation.
    Post edited by pterias on
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Posts: 1,616Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    Disclaimer: This is a personal opinion only. Moderators don't have any special insight to future development plans.

    The max-rank guild boons were too large when first introduced. They created a large disparity between players able to quickly rank up a guild and players not in such an organization. Although the contribution from guild boons is indeed less significant as character power has grown, it still significantly affects end-game. At the rate power grows in the game, the max-rank boons will still be consequential for some time.

    People did work hard to rank up guilds. They worked on that in lieu of other activities that would benefit their character or account. If a change were to be implemented at some point, it should not be overwhelming. If something should ever be taken away from guild boons, I would hope something else would be added as well... perhaps something that adds to convenience (like much of the VIP benefits) rather than to character power.
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  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Posts: 954Member Arc User
    SH content is old at this point but still very much a part of an average player's life, so I'm guessing they'll make an update to SHs, sooner or later. Give more stuff to end-game content players, eh?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,785Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2018
    ilmenira said:

    it's true that guild members made an effort to level their guilds, but often those that made most effort are gone by now... and people who join anew and under whatever circumstances get access to, say, a level 20 guild, are in a very different position than new gamers without guild or in small guilds. i know the difference from personal experience.

    But it's your choice. We can go to the guilds section and find guild after guild after guild, at SH20 asking to join. You chose not to join, so you gain whatever you wanted to gain by not joining and forfeit what a guild gives you. That different position is not forced on any player.

    It could have been argued quite some time ago that there are only few SH20 guilds, with restrictions, prices, demands and etc.. That creates a disparity between players that can join and those that can't. This is not true for a long time now (arguably wasn't ever true, except maybe a very short time when one guild progressed fast), and not joining is simply a choice, and not some hard to get spot that costs your soul.
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  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Lol Micky, you enjoy these threads a little too much! :smiley:

    I truly was not trying to change anything with my post or spark a conversation (this time). I really am just looking for a yes or no from the devs. I shouldn't have bothered with most of my response to Grom, he just fired a rather dramatic shot across my bow and I had a few minutes to spare.

    ---
    To briefly touch on a couple points:
    micky1p00 said:


    pterias said:


    I've genuinely given the Guild Evangelists(tm) the benefit of the doubt for years, but the consistent reactions leave me no choice but to think most people don't actually want to be in your guilds, they just do it for the boons, or at least you all are afraid so.

    Took me some time to understand what you mean here, but simply, no. You are saying that if the boons removed people will not have a reason to stay in a guild? Sorry to disappoint, but you are very wrong, guilds (or small private channels) existed before SH, and will exists as long as it's MMO. This is the last thing, at least I'm afraid of. We login for the people, not so much for the game.
    No, I don't really think that's the case, but it seems to me that a lot of you are afraid that without the boons, most wouldn't bother with being in your guilds. It's one of the few things I can think of that would evoke the commonplace, violent tissue rejection to the whole idea of an alternative. If you say that's personally not a fear of yours, I'll believe you, but I still think it's a broad-based fear, deep down.
    micky1p00 said:

    I wonder what you expect to find in other MMOs..

    Hahaha! With a little bit of luck and some good sense, this will be my last MMO. I thought this one was different, and it was, until it wasn't.
    ---

    I'd like to do a little thought experiment. Assuming you're in a maxed out guild and have been there from the start. Think about all the work and investment you have personally put into your guild, GH 1-20. Now add 20% onto that. Now imagine someone else sitting around alone doing that to get just the boons with no other benefits. Have you lost anything? Have they taken anything from you? Is that a threat to you?

    I probably shouldn't be bothering with this either, but whatevs.
  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Posts: 248Member Arc User
    Like Janne said, with every gear update guild boons relative give us less. We can live without them. I've joined SH11 without any good boons more than year ago and I reached end game. We worked on it and we manaded to reach SH20, with barrack etc too. I treated it like other gear purchases:

    If I were to pay 500 000 AD for 100 power increase (end game problems :P) how much would cost me getting that 100 power grom guild? Using Janne's handy site we needed 80k conqueror shards. When I leave other currencies to others, and I would buy 1 conqueror for 112 AD (2x shards, sales) I would need 9 million AD for 8k power. Cheap if you ask me and I've personally leveled few barrack ranks in our guild by myself. Of course you need to upgrade many building but that's why you get more guildmates (to share pain and labor).

    So if you're smart and know how to upgrade with least cost you can do it even without many dedicated members.. I don't think it's not possible for new players. If we could do it anyone could do it. After all guild boons became less and less important with powercreep and it's easy to join sh 20 now (end game players leaving game and so on, normal for any MMO) that I don't think there is any issue*

    *Well it would be nice if boons didn't exist in first place but if they introduced them together with grind then don't remove it or make it depreciated. I'm fine with making some parts of the grind easier though - easier getting vouchers/influence is fine for me.
  • preechr#2215 preechr Posts: 488Member Arc User
    Strongholds are basically obsolete now as their content has never been updated, so nobody needs to run Dragonflights

    The only benefit to players is the boons and access to vendors, though some members may still run heroics for Influence and some guilds actively support their members and some even do guild or alliance social activities

    For many new players, joining a guild is pretty much the easiest campaign you can complete (just get someone to admit you) and then, just like Sharandar or Dread Ring, you are pretty much done and you don't have to worry about it anymore

    Though all the guides encourage players to find a level 20 guild to join as quickly as possible, my own guild has never had a problem recruiting new members from when I joined at SH4 up till now at SH14, and we've always had a sufficient number of members, new and old, to help gather enough of whatever we need to steadily grow

    As the resident Care Bear and main DC, I usually had a pretty large percentage of our new members on my friends list, so I can say fairly confidently that most of those that left our guild did so because they quit the game, though there were always those that left to join another guild (though probably only half of those ended up in a larger SH)

    Point is, there are still plenty of new players that aren't interested in "freeloading," but the game itself gives no reasons for players to help grow Strongholds anymore
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 556Member Arc User
    edited April 2018
    pterias said:

    ...the giant gulf between players with GH20 Guild Boons vs. those with little or none?

    If you don't mind elaborating a bit, just how wide is the gulf that you're referring too?
    - honestly don't know having never joined a guild
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Posts: 206Member Arc User
    The gulf is still significant. The stronghold can provide a character up to four boons at any one time, depending on structures built. Each boon can be as much as 500 item level when maxed out, for a total of 2000 Item level at a guild with all structures at maximum level. The boons can be as much as 8000 stats (32000 HP). Only the offense and defense boons are this magnitude though, utility and pvp boons have less significance.

    However, if you have ever had to try to get an invite to a party outside of a guild, the extra 2000 IL seems like it would make a big difference in getting that invite.
  • hustin1hustin1 Posts: 2,885Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I think the biggest gripe I (as a guild leader) have is that the cost progression isn't linear; the costs grow exponentially the higher your rank. We've clawed our way to rank 14, but the costs to get to 15 are just staggering.
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  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 556Member Arc User
    edited April 2018
    pterias said:

    I'm not sure I'm fond of renting boons like that

    Yes, me neither.
    Post edited by frogwalloper#6494 on
  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Posts: 248Member Arc User
    pterias said:



    A completely different idea that occurred to me recently was to flesh out the 5 D&D factions (Harper, Zhentarim, Lord's Alliance, Emerald Enclave, and Order of the Gauntlet) as pseudo-guilds that anyone can join, guilded or solo. They would each have pre-determined Boon stats, but you could only gain access to them and improve them by gaining ranks within the faction by doing a campaign or something. If you want access to a different set of stats, you have to start over with a new faction.

    I like that idea ;) Either choose (lesser) faction boons or guild one. It's version of devs "One idea the team has been bouncing around is to add a store in Protector's Enclave where guildless players can buy access to lesser guild boons for a period of time" but one that connects with game lore better than simple "boon vendor".
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Consider the introduction of a "small guild" category with a one way shift for existing guilds of say rank 12 or less to being one of these. (Possibly reversible until you build/upgrade a building to provide some protection against malicious use)

    Costs to advance are reduced.

    Max guild level is 16, 3 rank 8 boon buildings as against 4 rank 10 max.

    Smaller limit on number of accounts/characters.

    This allows smaller guilds to compete. @scarabman you miss a large part of the point:

    "The difference between being in a guild with max-level boons and not being in a guild at all contributes to problems with our attempts to balance the level 70 experience. For players with very high item levels, the guild boons may not seem to be that big of a deal. "

    it may not be that big a deal but the loss of 2K IL means you won't get on a channel organised endgame dungeon as a 15K DPS when you might as a 17K.
  • spidey#3367 spidey Posts: 399Member Arc User
    What currency should this vendor in PE need?
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 556Member Arc User
    pterias said:


    A completely different idea that occurred to me recently was to flesh out the 5 D&D factions (Harper, Zhentarim, Lord's Alliance, Emerald Enclave, and Order of the Gauntlet) as pseudo-guilds that anyone can join, guilded or solo. They would each have pre-determined Boon stats, but you could only gain access to them and improve them by gaining ranks within the faction by doing a campaign or something. If you want access to a different set of stats, you have to start over with a new faction.

    I really like the idea of giving players the opportunity to join a faction instead of a guild, or even free lance for several. I've wondered for a while now why they weren't played up more since in tabletop campaigns, faction members are always keen to entice a hero into the fold.

    So many directions to go from there: boons as you mentioned, special quests or campaigns, the ability to take on temporary companions such as Boward or Shay Cutter - probably all kinds of things you could do with this.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,785Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Without going deeply into the debate, so not to derail.

    IMO:

    Yes:
    1. Going up to 80% of the boons is a good idea. Someone want 100%, guild..

    2. PvP boon should only count when flagged for PvP.

    No:
    1. Degrading boons are a huge NO. We saw how well Black ICE / Vivification worked. Once that cat out of the bag for boons I don't want to know where it will end up. So no, not in any form or way. No maintainable, rent-able, degradable.

    2. Going to 100% by some estimation of work - Can't quantify cat heading for 2 years. The investment per person for a small guild is significantly larger than large guild (per person).


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  • sgtpostal#4408 sgtpostal Posts: 303Member Arc User
    sometimes the most complex problems have the simplest of solutions. imo take the gap out close it..... an by this im sayin remove guild boons from the IL contributions . not the BOONS themselves jus the item lebel contributions... that way ppl who are in guilds dont lose what they workd so hard to get... you just dont get the il increase due to the system implemented a year ago....... so thingsd go back to the way they were as far as guild boons are concerned. cant say it cant be done just gotta put the heads together and figure out how to do it. but thats just my opinion on the "gap"
  • dolreydolrey Posts: 617Member Arc User
    edited April 2018
    If I understood right not exactly guild boons create troubles. The problem is that players without high-level guild can't get access to them.

    So nerf of guild bons will not decide the real problem (but it even can make some players not so happy). While system of buing temporarily access to guild boons would welcome.

    Also you can add the following mechanics for getting access to guild boons:
    For example your new guild consists in alliance with 20-level guild wich has top guild boons. And maybe it would be good to add ability for guildmaster of new guild to get acces to boons of that 20-level guild paying some astral diamonds (or any other resources) to them. Because long process of building 20-level guild should have it's benefits if everyone will be able to buy guild boons.

  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Without going deeply into the debate, so not to derail.

    IMO:

    Yes:
    1. Going up to 80% of the boons is a good idea. Someone want 100%, guild..

    2. PvP boon should only count when flagged for PvP.

    No:
    1. Degrading boons are a huge NO. We saw how well Black ICE / Vivification worked. Once that cat out of the bag for boons I don't want to know where it will end up. So no, not in any form or way. No maintainable, rent-able, degradable.

    2. Going to 100% by some estimation of work - Can't quantify cat heading for 2 years. The investment per person for a small guild is significantly larger than large guild (per person).


    I can appreciate all of that. See? Common ground at last!!!


  • preechr#2215 preechr Posts: 488Member Arc User
    If you join a growing guild, the expectation is that you would contribute to its growth by running influence on one or more PCs and by feeding the coffer... and every up and coming guild has at least two or three players that contributes significantly more than others (often a small motivated group)

    If guild boons were "rented" by solo players, the time/money investment could be approximately the same as that... just as if faction boons (terrific idea btw) were to require not only building up rep to get in but some sort of maintenance activities (fighting off enemies, etc) that would need to be performed in order to keep the boons

    Guild boons are much more powerful than campaign boons, so maybe they should be thought of differently... instead of fire and forget, what if they were contribution based?

    All a new player has to do is find a recruiter that will admit them to a SH20 and they never have to do anything else... does that seem right?

    I would suggest that faction boons AND guild boon benefits and item level be a percentage of a total value based on the contribution the player has made that month, which would help <SH20 guilds grow faster since many members that contribute nothing to their guild would at least invest the minimum effort to keep their boons up

    As I said, Strongholds have no compelling content anymore, so why not add some? Whether you are a member of a player guild or a faction, shouldn't you have to participate in that somehow in order to benefit from membership (boons and access to temp structures/markets/etc?)

    Take the Marauders concept and make it actually interesting and worth doing, tied to faction wars... Instead of random mobs attacking in such a boring and pointless way, make it so the Zhentarim have invaded your guild's map and you have to fight them off before they damage stuff or stop production, and then your guild members can counterattack by following their retreat into Zhentarim territory

    That's just a random idea... point is, Strongholds need SOMETHING to do, so if you are planning on doing something for those that choose to remain unguilded, throw a bone to the guilds that already exist and try to make it an upgrade for everyone with interesting new content that's not just for the elite end-gamers
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,915Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2018
    zajojajo said:

    Bunch of no lifes and roleplayers only now in this game, there is no place for normal players who wanna jump on gameplay with max gear and enjoy gameplay, even if they P2W

    That has to be one of the weirdest complaints I have ever heard. You expect to be able to buy your way to the top, and be welcomed, even if you hardly know how to play the character you basically bought? What a silly, silly idea.

    On a more rational topic, the idea to allow players to join a particular faction (Harper, Zhentarim, Lord's Alliance, Emerald Enclave, and Order of the Gauntlet), and gain "levels" within that faction is one of the better ideas I have heard in a long time. Allow players to do faction-specific quests to earn achievements, gear, bonuses and so on - and it would make perfect sense to re-use some of the faction-specific assets and NPCs that are already in the game - just make the factions mutually exclusive so you can only be an active member of one at any given time.

    This would be great for RP purposes and would give people something to do. Mod 16, maybe? Mod 14 should be ready for testing soon, Mod 15 is probably mostly designed by now, but getting something like this in Mod 16 should be realistic.
    Make NWO great again, please....
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