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Can a Dev/Manager please explain what a balanced, Working as Intended Neverwinter would look like?
lukejones77
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
I'm not wanting to pointlessly vent or level criticism. I'd like to describe what the playing experience is like, where the game is at, and find out what the DEV intentions for what the game are.
I'm really focussed on the end-game, where the vast majority of us spend the vast majority of our time, though I appreciate that the DEVs have to deal with a much broader landscape, and other distractions.
I'll start by saying that in terms of classes, the game isn't what it claims to be. There are Neverwinter classes advertised on the web site, with defined roles, backed up with restrictions for public queuing, and with paragon options and feat trees that make claims about the role you will have in MMO parties. For many classes, these things are incorrect.
Over recent NW history, we'd got to a point where power creep had rendered playing content boringly easy, and where the balance between classes had become very fractured.
Balance, or more specifically the relevance of your class to a group forming a party to run the latest content, is super important. Neverwinter is a place where you grind hard, or pay handsomely, to get AD. Over time earning AD has become harder and harder. By *far*, the most enjoyable and quickest way to earn AD is to get your character early into the latest module release runs, and get the shiny new drops which will earn big AD in the AH - as well as get you the best, latest gear.
So, your class being relevant to forming successful groups for the newly released modules is critical to your enjoyment of the game - and this is where module 12 starting really fracturing things.
It brought the hard content, but without the class balancing. I watched TONG party compositions constantly, using "Search", and module 13 was a great windfall for DCs, OPs and GWFs. It was pretty bad news for TRs, SWs and CWs (although those willing to change to support did eventually start getting runs).
A statistical analysis by PWE of party compositions for the first few months of module 12 (when drops are at their most valuable) would show the most incredible class discrimination that you could ever have imagined.
As a CW, I noticed that fellow CW friends reacted in different ways:
- Left the game
- Abandoned their preferred class to go play a DC, GWF or OP.
- Temporarily abandoned their class to get the cross-class gear they needed.
- Switched from "hero" to "beggar", getting carried by friends, once the "meta" figured it out enough to carry them. For me, that's a "no thanks".
- Stayed with their class, playing the same old boring T2 content, accumulating the newest gear in very slow fashion - generally frustrated.
So, I'm happy for all those whose preferred classes who got to spam the latest content, get the latest gear, and even walk around now adorned fully in Rank 14 enchants (like our prime DC), but I'd really like to know what the DEV attitude is to those players that have missed out badly.
What was the intent? Were we supposed to go play an alt until our favourite class maybe came back in style? Did you expect that we'd be happy playing the game as a 2nd rate class carried by friends? Was there simply too little opportunity to try and fix it?
Moving on from module 12 to 13, it looked like you were keen, at least, to fix the 2 x DC meta. Well, it's still a thing, but it's not mandatory by any stretch. The thing that seemed enticing about mod 13, to those of us who had been marginalized by the meta, was a 10 person run would allow more space for marginalized DPS classes to participate. Right? Not really, only sort of...
This is where I'd REALLY appreciate you giving us guidance on how the game SHOULD work.
The reality is that the Nevewinter gameplay is now dominated by buff/debuff. The players have got it down to an art where you can stick even a 2nd rate DPS at the front of the buffs and easily defeat TONG (being there, as a CW, that didn't even have a companion with bonding stones). The player focus is now all about quick completion focussed on the best DPS, whether it's 5 person, or 10 person.
So, there's a bunch of DPS classes, but most of them are still generally not wanted. Parties want to form as buffs around a prime DPS.
And the DPS contenders are, in arguable order:
- the GWF, way out in front
- the GF, supposedly a tank, but very readily displacing many classes that are supposed to have a DPS role
- the HR (big gap)
- the TR (looks like players have finally figured out it's potential)
- the CW (will generally get asked to play support, rather than the role he likely prefers)
- the SW (needs to take refuge in alternative roles)
Go back to your design as articulated in public queues, with an intended ratio of 3DPS+healer+tank. Reality is far from this - more like 1 DPS buffed by everyone else.
As I said, a buff party can get anyone to be the DPS, but as a game genealization, there are really big gaps working down that list. That's a lot of people not getting fair and early access to the latest content, and/or playing the role that wanted that was advertised by the class.
So, please DEVs, if you can accept the above as a reasonable generalization of how the game has evolved and how it's affected different players - just tell us what your actual intentions are for how the game should look when you get a chance to make the adjustments you'd like.
I know that you don't generally engage us with that kind of information. I saw the last Foss "State of the Game" presentation that pretty much ignored the elephant in the room, and frustrated players trying to yell out "balance".
Let's pretend that there's an exciting release of a rival MMO around the corner. Something that seems to be offering players the opportunity to play their characters on a fair basis, with the role that they actually want. Let's pretend it'll have a good focus on PvE dungeon runs - in other words, a genuine rival contender. If that were the case, you might want to give frustrated players here some direction of intent. Some indication of how the game will look when you get a chance to make it what you'd like it to be.
Thanks in advance.
I'm really focussed on the end-game, where the vast majority of us spend the vast majority of our time, though I appreciate that the DEVs have to deal with a much broader landscape, and other distractions.
I'll start by saying that in terms of classes, the game isn't what it claims to be. There are Neverwinter classes advertised on the web site, with defined roles, backed up with restrictions for public queuing, and with paragon options and feat trees that make claims about the role you will have in MMO parties. For many classes, these things are incorrect.
Over recent NW history, we'd got to a point where power creep had rendered playing content boringly easy, and where the balance between classes had become very fractured.
Balance, or more specifically the relevance of your class to a group forming a party to run the latest content, is super important. Neverwinter is a place where you grind hard, or pay handsomely, to get AD. Over time earning AD has become harder and harder. By *far*, the most enjoyable and quickest way to earn AD is to get your character early into the latest module release runs, and get the shiny new drops which will earn big AD in the AH - as well as get you the best, latest gear.
So, your class being relevant to forming successful groups for the newly released modules is critical to your enjoyment of the game - and this is where module 12 starting really fracturing things.
It brought the hard content, but without the class balancing. I watched TONG party compositions constantly, using "Search", and module 13 was a great windfall for DCs, OPs and GWFs. It was pretty bad news for TRs, SWs and CWs (although those willing to change to support did eventually start getting runs).
A statistical analysis by PWE of party compositions for the first few months of module 12 (when drops are at their most valuable) would show the most incredible class discrimination that you could ever have imagined.
As a CW, I noticed that fellow CW friends reacted in different ways:
- Left the game
- Abandoned their preferred class to go play a DC, GWF or OP.
- Temporarily abandoned their class to get the cross-class gear they needed.
- Switched from "hero" to "beggar", getting carried by friends, once the "meta" figured it out enough to carry them. For me, that's a "no thanks".
- Stayed with their class, playing the same old boring T2 content, accumulating the newest gear in very slow fashion - generally frustrated.
So, I'm happy for all those whose preferred classes who got to spam the latest content, get the latest gear, and even walk around now adorned fully in Rank 14 enchants (like our prime DC), but I'd really like to know what the DEV attitude is to those players that have missed out badly.
What was the intent? Were we supposed to go play an alt until our favourite class maybe came back in style? Did you expect that we'd be happy playing the game as a 2nd rate class carried by friends? Was there simply too little opportunity to try and fix it?
Moving on from module 12 to 13, it looked like you were keen, at least, to fix the 2 x DC meta. Well, it's still a thing, but it's not mandatory by any stretch. The thing that seemed enticing about mod 13, to those of us who had been marginalized by the meta, was a 10 person run would allow more space for marginalized DPS classes to participate. Right? Not really, only sort of...
This is where I'd REALLY appreciate you giving us guidance on how the game SHOULD work.
The reality is that the Nevewinter gameplay is now dominated by buff/debuff. The players have got it down to an art where you can stick even a 2nd rate DPS at the front of the buffs and easily defeat TONG (being there, as a CW, that didn't even have a companion with bonding stones). The player focus is now all about quick completion focussed on the best DPS, whether it's 5 person, or 10 person.
So, there's a bunch of DPS classes, but most of them are still generally not wanted. Parties want to form as buffs around a prime DPS.
And the DPS contenders are, in arguable order:
- the GWF, way out in front
- the GF, supposedly a tank, but very readily displacing many classes that are supposed to have a DPS role
- the HR (big gap)
- the TR (looks like players have finally figured out it's potential)
- the CW (will generally get asked to play support, rather than the role he likely prefers)
- the SW (needs to take refuge in alternative roles)
Go back to your design as articulated in public queues, with an intended ratio of 3DPS+healer+tank. Reality is far from this - more like 1 DPS buffed by everyone else.
As I said, a buff party can get anyone to be the DPS, but as a game genealization, there are really big gaps working down that list. That's a lot of people not getting fair and early access to the latest content, and/or playing the role that wanted that was advertised by the class.
So, please DEVs, if you can accept the above as a reasonable generalization of how the game has evolved and how it's affected different players - just tell us what your actual intentions are for how the game should look when you get a chance to make the adjustments you'd like.
I know that you don't generally engage us with that kind of information. I saw the last Foss "State of the Game" presentation that pretty much ignored the elephant in the room, and frustrated players trying to yell out "balance".
Let's pretend that there's an exciting release of a rival MMO around the corner. Something that seems to be offering players the opportunity to play their characters on a fair basis, with the role that they actually want. Let's pretend it'll have a good focus on PvE dungeon runs - in other words, a genuine rival contender. If that were the case, you might want to give frustrated players here some direction of intent. Some indication of how the game will look when you get a chance to make it what you'd like it to be.
Thanks in advance.
14
Comments
Nothing, not even SW or CW theorycrafters, can overcome the DPS discrepancy that you listed for the classes above. Instead, during this Mod, CWs were nerfed even more.
I do not know if the developers know how bad it is in the game, playing end-game content, with particular classes @terramak, @nitocris83, @mimicking#6533.
If you look at the mass of theory in his work, it's pretty much about DPS and all the nuances around how to maximize it. This is what CWs pour through, looking to be their best, but the sad bit is, others in this MMO don't really care, and it's not particularly relevant. Nobody comes even close to caring about it all as much as they do.
The thing that surprises me the most, is that this current situation has to be the worst outcome for the Neverwinter business model.
Buffs are something that you just need to activate, and then work on maximizing up time. Getting max DPS is a far more competitive and expensive process, traditionally with lots of experimentation to find that secret sauce for a few more %.
The inverted pyramid, where a few DPS (particularly where that DPS class is a single, simple loadout), supported by "cheap to loadout" support, surely brings in a lot less money than a healthy spread of competitive DPS classes, accepting balance ebbs and flows (as opposed to long-tern massive balance biases)????
As it stands, you have one "go to" class for DPS, and these players get easy access to the newest content where the new drops are the most valuable thing in the game by far, at the highest value they'll be.
Essentially the desireable DPS get to upgrade themselves for free, and the unwanted DPS are under very limited pressure to keep up, once they work out it won't get them anywhere anyway.
***** That's killing incentive all-around for anyone to spend real money on the game ******
The GWF tends to outperform other DPS many 1000s of gear score more than them.
Consider the difference in cost in moving from Rank 10 enchants to Rank 11 enchants, compared to moving from Rank 13 enchants to Rank 14 enchants. It's a phenomenal difference.
What happens when the game evolves to Rank 15 enchants? All I can see is that, based on what has become the long-term trajectory across multiple modules, the GWF and the best support classes will end up with Rank 15 (for free, courtesy of their ability to dominate valuable, newly released content), and the other classes are left far behind, with little incentive to upgrade anyway.
Absolutely no "nerf XXXX" here. It happens to be about a particular class, and could have been a different one.
What I'm keen to understand from DEVs, is if they're going to make a serious attempt to get back to the DPS/DPS/DPS/tank/healer MMO model, instead of the current DPS/Buff/Buff/Buff/Buff model.
... or..whatever. What's the plan?
Really, it's stretch to even say that. I have 4 chars I'm keeping up to date on the campaigns, so that helps keep me doing something for now, but that's about it. I can't bring myself to run any more soul-crushing leveling dungeons on my alts, so AD is getting thin. Also, no gear above 480IL for me for the foreseeable future. I main a 13k CW and don't like MoF, so I can't even beg my way into an endgame group. I also have a near 13k DC that I *could* beg my way into a group with, but I'm done with begging. I spent nearly 10 million AD back in SKT on my DC just so I could barely play a class I didn't care for that much, and a path I didn't particularly like at that, and was still never able to get enough marks to upgrade both relic pieces on my CW. I'm not chasing that unicorn again.
You know, some people get to play what they like. I'm going to play what I like. If that means I'm 2-3 mods behind on new gear and endgame content from now on, then so be it. It's Cryptic's problem, I'm not gonna let them make it mine. To me, the other plan is to just quit, not doing whatever they or anyone else demands of me. I can find plenty of other ways to have fun.
Right now I'm just coasting hoping things improve. Some things that would certainly help would be:
- Bringing other DPS classes up closer to GWF/GF.
- Making room for more than one DPS in a party again.
- ^ Possibly by shifting buffs/debuffs from multiplicative to additive, and obviously rebalancing around that.
- Bringing back diminishing returns on stats so the gear gap isn't so outrageous.
- Making control a little more relevant, maybe giving CWs a little bit of Control Resist "Piercing", because hey, CONTROL Wizard.
- Adding some solo ways to get Seals of the Brave like they did with Protector Seals.
- Finally doing the right thing on Random Epic Queue by getting rid of FBI and MSP.
- Creating some means for solo players to make up at least some of the 1500-2000 IL Guild Boon gap. *casts "Flame Shield"*
Anyway, I'm about 3 weeks from finishing Omu on those 4 chars. I'm undecided on what to do after. I could start another alt through Mods 10-13 (!!?). I could try to restart some soulless AD grinding again for a sunny day I'm too cynical to believe will come. I also have about another 500 games from my "to do" list I could get started on. Regardless, unless things change, I think I'm just gonna be hanging around for the campaigns because D&D.
One step forward like DC nerf/ adjustements, and immidiately one step back implementing gear with multiplicative damageboni...
The core of this threat is not about one class outperforming the other, the core is that my low budget OP, DO-DC or mof or templock etc outvalues any striker that might have spend 100 mio AD but can't get access due to the buffsystem.
Codg is setup like OP-OP-DC-DC-DC-GF-mof/temp and 2 to max. 3 striker in general.
And yes, it can be done with OP-DC-DC-GF + 6xstriker...but 100% of player ingame go the other way.
No comment from Cryptic on the state of the game? Not even to simply say if the game is roughly where it should be, and working as intended?
What would a balanced, WAI Neverwinter look like? A fantasy/delusion at this point.
You've got OP as the tank class (GF can do it too but it's not popular)
TR/GWF/GF as the main dps
DC as the main support
CW/SW/HR as your DPS/Support hybrid options.
I feel like all we need now is another class that can fill the main support role (bard when?) and buffs to the GF's tier 4/5/6 tactician and protector feats to make them as desirable as pallies for tanks.
Obviously this is a bit of an oversimplification, but it's kinda how I see that classes fitting into roles now, and yes every class in the hybrid list is more than capable of also filling the main dps list. They may not do quite as much damage, but more than enough to clear any content in a reasonable amount of time.
If Cryptic thinks a class primary should have a support role they should say so(and watch play numbers for that class plummet).
Templocks are great now, and people are now supper happy to run with a templock. CWs, or rather, Renegade MoFs should have a muuuuch more consistent capstone feat (I mean, 30% crit/RI, some healing? seriously?) and some form of feat that removes debuffs, much like DCs can do when the dumbass DPS stands next to the tank when fighting Ras Nsi, make power share not something so very class-specific (make all supports be able to do it, just less for classes that can be DPS/support hybrids), or just put most of that stuff into the Bard as @dairyzeus said.
DPS SW is kinda weird, it's bugged but it works, weirdly enough. OPs are OPs, GFs are fine the way they are, so all that's left to do is removing all of the overcomplicated HAMSTER which includes resistances and mitigation that are class-specific and you're good to go.
Also, it would be great if some of you CW chums could post a video of the duration of your controls - freezing to be precise. It doesn't last long enough to make any decent use of it, so their supposed 96% damage feat thing actually only does 48%. Fix that and CWs will be fine. TRs are stupidly overpowered in PvP and strong in PvE but a tiny percentage of people can actually use the class to its full potential, and all of this complication was started with SoD piercing damage.
I swear to god, if you make Mod 14/15 a level cap increase that fixes the issues I mentioned, that adds more content unlike Mod 6, and maybe if you could throw in some engine changes because the current one performs like a dead dog nailed to a wheelchair after it has been thrown into a volcano, I swear to god I will travel to their studio and let them sell all of my organs. I don't even give a damn anymore, just fix these issues for the love of god
But I am still here, why? Hope is eternal. Have fun!
Class balance is important because it ensure everyone enjoy the game and makes their money well invested in their character. This is how u repay ur customer by ensuring everyones money is well invested and not makes all the money they invested disappear over a change of codes. When u see player unable to join a group content because of the class they played, that mean something is wrong with the class. When u see certain class top the group preference list, something is wrong. Their performance need to reevaluate. Any reevaluation and testing need to be made with care as to not overbuff or overnerf the class. The plan is not to make the class super powerfull or super useless but to reduce the performance gap between all class. This is what this game has failed since i start playing this game as i witness my friends and guildie quit this game because of this. Not because they lose their place in dps chart, but its mainly because their class got overnerf and nobody wants them in their party which put the out of reach of latest content. Developer just need to makes sure everybody gets to play, else people are just gonna leave.
DC DC DC OP OP GF ...
4 spots left for the remaining classes SW CW TR GWF 2.GF Hunter.
The issues are buffs as everyone should have learned by now.
Support Ranking:
- Devoted Cleric Divine Oracle
- Devoted Cleric Anointed Champion
- Oathbound Paladin Devotion
- Oathbound Paladin Protection buffer
- Scourge Warlock Temptation buffer
- * Hunter Ranger Perma Longstrider build
- * Guardian Fighter Tactician buff build
- Control Wizard Master of Flame buffer (Oppressor / Renegade)
DPS Ranking:- Great Weapon Fighter
- Hunter Ranger
- Guardian Fighter
- Trickster Rogue
- Control Wizard
- Scourge Warlock
So, if you don't break into the top 1/2 of either category..... well, you came here to be a hero, but maybe your friends can carry you as a successful beggar.Anyway, before we worry about those ranks and where we can try to fit, perhaps Cryptic can explain if the game will stay support-heavy (gobbling up positions in the formed party), or if there might be a little more room in the future for the larger percentage of DPS classes hoping to not only be included, but even be rewarded for effort with hard-earned specs being appreciated.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
A good start is to disable the binds ( PC ONLY FEATURE IS ) at least those binds that you can lock a target and buff it 24/7.
Bane exaltation or any other buff need to target a person should be only MANUAL and not a bind.
I Am playing 4 years on pc and i will not change platform because you dont remove that stupid bind option" ONLY FOR PC".
Sorry if is this not part of thje problem and post it here .
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
While It is true that "Every game will see some type of balancing issue that someone disagrees with on how it was done", But thats the challenge isnt it? To make sure that the performance gap is greatly reduce among dps class (that it doesnt matter who takes the dps role) and the role contribution among classes is nicely defined ( for example, scoundrel TR actualy able to effectively play as a CC class in a dungeon) and balanced so that everybody get to play the game. The developer decision on what element comes to play in combat also play a role in class balance. For example, the nerf of CC are making class that specialize in that useless. Developer should have know that better before they make the decision to nerf CC to the ground. Many of the developer decision are working against class balance and eventualy themselves. There are no clear path in what they are doing and how its gonna affect the balance.
Balancing is hard but one thing in this is that in theory you will eventually in balancing even everyone out to do the same things and nobody/nothing is special. Capitalism and Socialism and their philosophies apply very well into these context. Yes, to make something special you have to make it rare. Else, everyone in this game would get all of the rewards for just finishing content and everyone would do the same exact damage based on the role they queued into the content as. The pain giver charts would have the dps classes all tied for damage with support classes tied for damage and tanks tied for damage just from participating (this is an exaggeration). Balancing is hard but I want there to be special things in this game so not everyone can achieve everything is fine with me. Not all classes being the best at a specific role in the game is fine with me. Having a class that can't fill any role in the party is not fine with me. While there is still a ways to go in balancing I feel like the last mod made all classes viable in end game content in some way. Maybe not the way the person wanted to play that class but viable.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
When new content comes around, it comes with valuable drops and the latest gear. Over time that value drops off (UES now 30% of it's value for the first 3 months), but until then, the valuable runs are spammed by optimal parties focused on quick completion times. For the first months, TONG was absolutely dominated by DC/OP/GWF runs.
Particularly for DPS (where the player base is large and the number of available spots is now few), the balance gaps between classes is simply to high for any kind of non-stubborn adaption other than to go play another class.
If you believe in adaptability where people should give up on playing their preferred class, then that's certainly an opinion that you're entitled to, but this thread is about asking the DEVs to explain what they intend for the game to be.
If their design is that parties should be so support heavy, then they can tell us that. If that is the case, then far too many of us are playing DPS classes.
If they're happy with class balance as it is (particularly for DPS), then they can tell us that, and we can decide if we still want to play DPS classes that are very clearly not going to be in the picture when the next module comes around, and support is spamming valuable runs with the stand out DPS class.