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Chultan Tiger debuff uptime without Combat Advantage

nihlocke#5890 nihlocke
nihlocke#5890
 Member Posts: 69 Arc User
in PvE Discussion
So, the new Chultan Tiger companion is undoubtedly the new best summoned companion for dps, and it's also pretty damn good for supports and tanks too.

Same debuff as Con Artists/Sellswords/Rebel Mercenary, 5% dmg and speed buff for 25 seconds upon entering combat, 3 offensive runeslots, easy to equip. Can't really beat that.

I just have a few doubts regarding the debuff application. Let's look at the abilities involved:



Killer Instinct: Enemies that are affected by the Tiger's Damage Over Time Bleeds take 10% more damage from all sources and increase the Tiger's damage by 20%. No cooldown of course.

Claw: Claws the target, dealing physical damage. If the Tiger has Combat Advantage, he will also Rake the target applying a Damage Over Time Bleed. No cooldown.

Rending Swipe: The Tiger swipes at all enemies in front of him causing them to take Damage Over Time through a Bleed effect. 12 seconds cooldown.




Now, Claw applies a bleed which then applies the 10% debuff (due to Killer Instinct), but only if there is a Combat Advantage granting effect on the target.

Rending Swipe applies a bleed regardless. It is only used once every 12 seconds due to the cooldown, but we have another bleed here, which means Killer Instinct should work and apply the debuff.


Does this mean that the Chultan Tiger applies the 10% debuff regardless of Combat Advantage, one way or another? I mean, while soloing, let's assume we are a TR, who has no abilities that grant Combat Advantage to the whole party (which includes our Tiger) : does the Rending Swipe apply the bleed and thus the debuff or does it need CA too?

I know it SHOULD apply the bleed --> debuff, but it just sounds weird that the single target bleed needs CA while the AOE bleed doesn't.

And if Rending Swipe applies the debuff, does it have 100% uptime when there's no CA granting effect on the target/targets?

Comments

  • vincentr6669vincentr6669 Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    From what i was told the tiger's AI never uses Rending Swipe, so you only have single-target debuff and need Combat Advantage. If this was not the case then you would be right in the sense that CAdv is not needed to apply the debuff, but i don't know about the uptime, for that is necessary to know how often the tiger uses its ability and how long the debuff stay on targets.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    vincentr6669 said:

    From what i was told the tiger's AI never uses Rending Swipe, so you only have single-target debuff and need Combat Advantage. If this was not the case then you would be right in the sense that CAdv is not needed to apply the debuff, but i don't know about the uptime, for that is necessary to know how often the tiger uses its ability and how long the debuff stay on targets.

    I tested the Tiger out and decided to make my Sell Sword legendary on my CW. Yeah it is fairly easy for my Buff CW to keep CA up but I only play my buff build for T9. In all other content the Tiger would not be as effective as my Sell Sword. The active bonus is really good but given the cost and how the primary debuff works I stuck with a companion I already had gear for and provides the same debuff.

    My GF uses the dancing shield with a higher debuff and my DC uses the Rebel Merc due to having the gear for both companion and the debuff they provide.

    If I needed a good active and a debuff/buff companion I would get the Tiger. My lone character that could benefit from the Tiger is my HR and that is because he does not have a debuff companion and with Aspect of the Pack he has CA constantly up.

  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke
    nihlocke#5890
         Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    vincentr6669 said:

    From what i was told the tiger's AI never uses Rending Swipe, so you only have single-target debuff and need Combat Advantage.

    Well, that's disappointing. Of course, that only matters in solo play, and only for classes that don't get a CAdv effect . In 99 out of 100 dungeon groups there'll never be a lack of CAdv effects, so the tiger will almost always be BiS, at least on the targets that really matter, aka bosses.

    Still, having an ability that never gets used is weird. Anybody got different results?

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    nihlocke#5890 said:

    vincentr6669 said:

    From what i was told the tiger's AI never uses Rending Swipe, so you only have single-target debuff and need Combat Advantage.

    Well, that's disappointing. Of course, that only matters in solo play, and only for classes that don't get a CAdv effect . In 99 out of 100 dungeon groups there'll never be a lack of CAdv effects, so the tiger will almost always be BiS, at least on the targets that really matter, aka bosses.

    Still, having an ability that never gets used is weird. Anybody got different results?

    This game does have bosses with adds and when this happens the Tiger is less effective than the Sword Trio. Especially if the Tiger is applying the debuff on adds instead of the boss. If this happens than the Sword Trio are preferred. The Tiger is definitely better than the air or fire archon but not better than the Sword Trio or the Dancing Shied for applying the debuff or % of debuff applied. The Tiger does have a better active bonus though.
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke
    nihlocke#5890
         Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    My bad, I forgot that some bosses have adds too.

    That basically means that, until the Chultan Tiger realizes it has that Rending Swipe thing, we can state:

    Solo play:

    Classes with CAdv abilities:
    Chultan Tiger: single target debuff, no AOE debuff, amazing active bonus
    Sellsword Trio: single target debuff, AOE debuff, passable active bonus

    Classes with no CAdv abilities:
    Chultan Tiger: no single target debuff, no AOE debuff, amazing active bonus
    Sellsword Trio: single target debuff, AOE debuff, passable active bonus



    Dungeon/Skirmish/Epic Trial (99 out of 100 times there's at least someone with a CAdv effect)

    Chultan Tiger: single target debuff, no AOE debuff, amazing active bonus
    Sellsword Trio: single target debuff, AOE debuff, passable active bonus


    "amazing active bonus" as in "another Air Archon and 5% run speed for 25 seconds"

    Please correct me if i forgot something.


  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    nihlocke#5890 said:

    My bad, I forgot that some bosses have adds too.

    Sellsword Trio: single target debuff, AOE debuff, passable active bonus

    Worthless active bonus is far closer to accurate.
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke
    nihlocke#5890
         Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    tiberiusrex#6660 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    nihlocke#5890 said:

    vincentr6669 said:

    From what i was told the tiger's AI never uses Rending Swipe, so you only have single-target debuff and need Combat Advantage.

    Well, that's disappointing. Of course, that only matters in solo play, and only for classes that don't get a CAdv effect . In 99 out of 100 dungeon groups there'll never be a lack of CAdv effects, so the tiger will almost always be BiS, at least on the targets that really matter, aka bosses.

    Still, having an ability that never gets used is weird. Anybody got different results?

    This game does have bosses with adds and when this happens the Tiger is less effective than the Sword Trio. Especially if the Tiger is applying the debuff on adds instead of the boss. If this happens than the Sword Trio are preferred. The Tiger is definitely better than the air or fire archon but not better than the Sword Trio or the Dancing Shied for applying the debuff or % of debuff applied. The Tiger does have a better active bonus though.
    with teh caps on buff debuffs the sword trio is still only really good for support imo. the tiger also has a damage modifier other than the buff debuff making it better ipso facto than the sword trio. because the debuff is a bonus on top of that. and I don't know why the tiger giving the debuff to a minion instead of the boss makes it worse than the sword trio because the sword trio totally does that too.

    and because the tiger is bis you're probably going to find it on four out of five people in any party which means the debuff will find it's way on to a boss most likely.

    Yes, that's right. This whole thread was more about what the Chultan Tiger's abilities could do in certain situations rather than discussing wheter it is the best summoned companion or not.

    I guess dps can get the Tiger and call it a day. Supports and tanks might look at the Sword trio or something else, or get the Tiger too. My DC DO is happy with his Legendary Con Artist right now.
  • vincentr6669vincentr6669 Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    tiberiusrex#6660 said:

    and I don't know why the tiger giving the debuff to a minion instead of the boss makes it worse than the sword trio because the sword trio totally does that too.

    Because the tiger would give the debuff only to the minion (because the tiger uses a single-target attack) while sword trio would apply the debuff on both minions and the boss (area attack).
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:


    I tested the Tiger out

    How can you test out the Tiger if PS4 doesn't aquire Module 13 until 18 days (17 days for future people) from now?

    I normally don't use a PC for testing a game. I do though if I am planning to spend some money on the game or convert a large chunk of my in game currency to buy an item I want to ensure it is a good purchase. I did some minor testing but it was not for long.

    Since my CW is primary a buffer, my main is a DC and my other alt is a GF they all are using debuff companions.

    DC - Rebel Merc
    CW - Sellsword
    GF - Dancing Shield

    I have other characters as well but rarely use them.

    SW - Con Artist
    HR - Air Archon

    Seeing that my HR is my true lone DPS and is using a Air Archon he would benefit the most from the Tiger.

    I did consider getting it more for my CW; however, I may put my CW on the shelf and make my HR my DPS character for content as both are fully geared and my CW enchantments can easily be moved over to my HR.

    As for the Tiger being BiS; I would agree for DPS builds, this includes DO, GF, OP, etc..., due to the active bonus it has over the horrible bonus that the sword trio have.

    The one thing I did notice is that the Sword Trio debuff is a bit better due to its bebuff being a swipe attack vs. a single target. The tiger can hit the primary target but tends to also land the debuff on a secondary target. Similar to how the Dancing Shield debuff works.

    5 Tigers in a group will become very common because it will become the to go companion for most groups.

    For me, I honestly have only one character ATM I would buy the tiger for due to how my other characters are currently setup. With a 50% off sale around the corner, I may end up getting 2-3 tigers.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    rjc9000 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:


    I tested the Tiger out

    How can you test out the Tiger if PS4 doesn't aquire Module 13 until 18 days (17 days for future people) from now?
    I normally don't use a PC for testing a game. I do though if I am planning to spend some money on the game or convert a large chunk of my in game currency to buy an item I want to ensure it is a good purchase. I did some minor testing but it was not for long.
    How can you test the Tiger on preview if the preview Zen store doesn't offer any Tigers?

    And how would you save any money if you had to effectively buy the Tiger twice, once for preview testing and another on your PS4 account?
    I did test with a dancing shield on groups as it is easier to see debuffs on PC than PS4. I never said how I did my testing. If the Tiger behaves like the Dancing shield it will be good in most cases but there will be times where it will debuff the wrong target.

    I was just seeing how a single target debuff compares to the swipe debuff. The active bonus is going to be nice and definitely worth it for any DPS.
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