1) "Levelling dungeons", no such thing. It is random queues now. There are no "level appropriate" dungeons either.
False. There are even some skirmishes that level 70 can no participate in, if you skipped the Blacklake skirmish you can no longer get the "Hero of Blacklake" title. They just don't lock us out of the Cloak Tower because we have too few dungeons already in this game. I doubt we will ever see "Throne of Idris" or "Lair of the Mad Dragon" return to the game.
2) The vast majority of people want fast runs. This is the paradigm and always has been.
False. The lower players fear they will be kicked by logging in with level 70. So they keep up. Just last night I did Cloak Tower with a 20 and 12. We took our time and I showed them how to collect the 6 items for those 2 lame reward chests but they thought it was "cool". Just because you want something doesn't make everyone else want it too.
3) CoK, anyone with any smarts leaves both CoK and SP instantly. It is not worth the hassle and it is not worth it AD wise either.
So that may have been you in the Spell Plague Caverns who DC'ed on me last month? I ran the SPC solo until I reached the end and kicked the one DC the other did the honorable thing and abandoned. Then I requested reinforcements. We killed the boss and left. About the only time I would think about taking off is an unexpected visit from my sister. And then, I would inform the others I must abandon the dungeon and take the penalty. I only hope others do the honorable exit as I would.
5) Many people would prefer to do solo queues for their AD. This would allow them more control over their game experience.
False. Some people would, but the majority of us are playing to have fun. How can you have fun alone in a social game? Sounds to me you just want to play a solo version of Neverwinter and toss in an online pub where you can gloat about your victories.
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
FALSE. This is a fantasy game, but after reading this statement, I seriously question how you manage in the real world. In the real world, everything from employment to social activities, like football, require teamwork. I suppose we are all just shadows to you and we should all be grateful to be in your awesome presence. I don't think we need to hear 7 as it seems you don't understand "There is no I in T-E-A-M.".
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
FALSE. This is a fantasy game, but after reading this statement, I seriously question how you manage in the real world. In the real world, everything from employment to social activities, like football, require teamwork. I suppose we are all just shadows to you and we should all be grateful to be in your awesome presence. I don't think we need to hear 7 as it seems you don't understand "There is no I in T-E-A-M.".
How did you jump from what I said to your exceptionally stupid generalisation that I dont believe that such a thing as teamwork in sports or elsewhere exists? What I said is that there is no teamwork in normal dungeons in the random queue, and I said nothing about real life or even other content in the game.
As for the rest of your points reality trumps your desires.
1) False. We are talking about dungeons here, not level locked skirmishes. 2) False. We are talking about all players not low level players in particular. 3) It could have been me or any of the masses of players who never/rarely do SP or CoK. 4) False. If you cant do anything in a dungeon you are either a leecher or there to be carried. 5) False. You are assuming people play normal dungeons for fun but very few do. It is all about the AD. 6) False. See above but try watching for people doing anything teamwork/group related in normal dungeons. Does not happen.
I mean, how dare players take a level appropriate toon with level appropriate gear and a build that's not top notch into content that's not meant to be soloable for level appropriate toons with level appropriate equipment and then not be able to kill mobs on their own. Clearly they're just looking for high levels to carry them!
...wankers.
Again, no such thing as "level appropriate" with regard to character level in normal dungeon random queues.
The level appropriate gear point is more complex as many people are missing level appropriate gear because now players level up too fast for the zones they are in so their equipment is almost always never level appropriate. This is a game balance and game design problem.
With no experience boosts, except vip, I managed to get to level 44 at the end of Neverdeath (doing almost all the content and a few skirmishes/dungeons) and if I recall correctly I used to finish Neverdeath at close to level 30. This means that if I only had random drops as equipment then this equipment would be rated for levels around 30 while I was level 44, so I dont have character level appropriate equipment even if it is level appropriate based on the zone I am in.
Yes I want a fast run since I'm mostly there for the AD but there's one thing I want far more, for new players to have as many positive experiences in the game as possible so they'll stick around and keep it alive. Not much fun playing a dead or dying game. There's a HAMSTER ton of things in this game that I can't affect in any way when it comes to what experience new players have, the ones they get in the dungeons when I'm there is something I can though.
This is why random queues were a terrible idea.
Mixing new players with people who are there for the AD was a terrible design decision as their motivations for playing were too diverse.
Cryptic were like many of the wishful thinking posters in this thread as it seems they too thought everything would be unicorns and rainbows in random queues, that people would give complete support and infinite patience to new players, but harsh reality shows most players are selfish and dont give a toss about new players and dont want new players in "their" content.
And frankly I find mentalities of preferring a dead game and alienating new players very odd. But it takes all sorts and all of that.
Mentalities, yeah. I said nothing of the sort. How did you jump from what I said to your exceptionally stupid claim that I prefer a dead game?. No one is talking about a dead game except you. As for the alienation of new players point, tell that to whoever thought mixing new and not new players would end well.
We have had plenty of threads where people have said dont put new and old players in the same content as it does not work well, so new players should have their own queue so they have a better initial experience. As we have seen from these plenty of threads, non-new players are not going to change how they play just because Cryptic or the posters in this thread express wishful thinking for them to change.
I will say it in a way that even someone as limited as you as you can understand: 1) Not new players do not want new players in "their" content. 2) New players do not want not new players in "their" content. 3) Split them up so new and not new are not in the same content. Have fun making stuff up stuff I never said out of this...
Oh, dear.... It looks like someone forgot to do their research. Next time, before you post, you may want to talk to your friends, the ones that have been playing the game for more than a year or two. That way you can avoid swallowing a foot or two. The way dungeons are run has changed over the last mod or three. Previously, not only di your character have to reach a certain level to unlock each dungeon, but each dungeon queue was locked out once you moved beyond the level cap. When you were 5 or 10 levels above the recommended level for cloak tower, you could not queue to get in. the only way to run these dungeons was to form a party and go in the front door. That is the definition of "level appropriate". No for you.
Bottom line here, there are far too few dungeons for this even be called Dungeons and Dragons. The game has been active for 5 years now this summer. Cryptic has a serious management issue, and this is not picking on or bashing developers, but the answer has been there in the game from the beginning. They enticed me with the Foundry, but dropped that ball after Shadowmantle. The Foundry use to give out rewards of AD, double XP, and had a special spot in the game called the Foundry Hour. Tom Foss said, in a video interview, that he is given no budget to work on or develop the Foundry. Thus the most unique feature of this game rots in limbo.
Many players have been mislead by the following misinformation; players exploited the Foundry, players botted the Foundry, the Foundry can no longer be repaired, etc.. The reality is Cryptic cannot find a way to financially exploit the Foundry so they see no need to financially support it. The dungeons are full of bots but they need them to keep the players happy. We are humans and we can memorize a dungeon where nothing changes, the layout, the mobs, and the rewards. The reason I seldom run dungeons, I can do them too easy, there is no challenge. The company obviously wants a "Farmville mentality" where you push a button over and over and AD pops out, but not too much, can't make everyone millionaires over night. The only reason I have to run dungeons is to show the new guys the ropes. In order to do that, I need to be able to communicate with them. They ripped out the new guy's vocal cords.
If they want to throw the dungeon bots into a tailspin, that is fine with me. All they need to do is repair and update the Foundry so the authors can make quality dungeons. Throw out these random ques and use random Foundry quests to gather the daily AD. If they did that, authors would return and dungeons would be fresh and imaginative again. To insure quality, have the developers select a list of monthly dungeons by actual play through so nothing "odd ball" gets through. I am also certain that the serious authors would be more than happy to work with the developers on design, lore, and playability.
I don't understand why anyone can blame the new players, for being in the way, when there are random Epic Dungeons on that list. You cannot tell me that the new guys are playing in the Epic Dungeons too. If you are playing in a low level dungeon, show some respect for who you are playing along side. First thing I do, level check the other two players. Everyone level 70 not a problem. If just one or more players are low level, you need to stand with them and not against them. Don't blame the new guy for you hanging out on his turf.
2
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
I have 9 characters. Of those 9 only 5 can currently run RED. All of them run random skirmishes and dungeons. Sometimes the queue times for RED are long. I think that primarily has to do with the fact people get a fully party together before queuing.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
1) "Levelling dungeons", no such thing. It is random queues now. There are no "level appropriate" dungeons either.
Uhm.... You DO realize that a lvl 21 can't do Grey Wolf Den or Spellplague, right? And the fact that when a lvl 70 joins for Cloak Tower, they're dropped to lvl 12, right? That kinda, sorta, definately means "level appropriate".
2) The vast majority of people want fast runs. This is the paradigm and always has been.
Where is the survey that asks this? I don't recall seeing one. Maybe some of the people you run with want fast runs, but not the "vast majority". Please don't generalize like that.
5) Many people would prefer to do solo queues for their AD. This would allow them more control over their game experience.
So why don't they? Aaah, right, you'd rather get the big payoff AD at the end instead of picking up trash green and blue drops and converting those to AD all the time. Got it
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
Uhm.... so because this is a fantasy game, I guess you're saying that it's a fantasy to expect real world attitudes like teamwork and co-operation to apply, right?
It is not my fault, it is not the fault of the other player standing next to me waiting for the dead guy either. The dead guy is at fault for wanting others to carry them through content they are quite simply not ready for.
The problem is when you're rushing to keep up with someone who's faster than you and then end up getting ganked by the 10-20 mobs they aggro'd. You seem to forget that movement speed is different for different levels. There's no way a lvl 12 HR can keep pace with a CW or GWF or GF going full speed. This, to me, is part of the problem. If everyone's base speed were brought down to the lvl of the dungeon you're running, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't have to wait for the lower lvl toons. I've solo'd every dungeon on most of my toons (my DC just isn't built for doing damage, so he doesn't solo alot), and I never have much problems when I take my time to work through each section or boss. So, no, I'm not expecting other to "carry me through content". I just don't appreciate or need to be jumped by everything you left eating your dust because you just wanted to big payoff of AD at the end.
There is one point to be made about people now levelling too quickly, compared to ye olden times, and not gaining the experience they need but that is a problem for the devs 'vision' of the game.
On that, at least, we can agree. I admit I leveled my GWF and TR way too quickly (thanks to guild quests for random dungeons and skirmishes) and didn't get to really learn how to play them until I hit 70 and realized I was having problems in Dread Ring. Couldn't figure out why my rogue kept dying... until I learned that he has a totally different playstyle from my OP or GF.
The problem I see there is that the devs needed to find a why to answer the question "OK, I hit 70.... now what? Have you noticed how much more content there is after 70? More than half the game is "closed off" to you until you hit that level. So a compromise of some sort had to be reached. Personally I think a bit more options at lower levels might help (maybe require 10-15% more xp per level? I don't know, just throwing out idead).
Now, since I'm new not only to the game, but to the forums as well, could someone tell me how to quote two different sources in 1 post? I wanted to give props to Wintersmoke for adding brevity to this discussion
Quoting just grabs the post where you hit the button and adds the tags to it, so you can quote many posts in one post by just clicking them... That will add them to the post field
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
FALSE. This is a fantasy game, but after reading this statement, I seriously question how you manage in the real world. In the real world, everything from employment to social activities, like football, require teamwork. I suppose we are all just shadows to you and we should all be grateful to be in your awesome presence. I don't think we need to hear 7 as it seems you don't understand "There is no I in T-E-A-M.".
How did you jump from what I said to your exceptionally stupid generalisation that I dont believe that such a thing as teamwork in sports or elsewhere exists? What I said is that there is no teamwork in normal dungeons in the random queue, and I said nothing about real life or even other content in the game.
As for the rest of your points reality trumps your desires.
1) False. We are talking about dungeons here, not level locked skirmishes. 2) False. We are talking about all players not low level players in particular. 3) It could have been me or any of the masses of players who never/rarely do SP or CoK. 4) False. If you cant do anything in a dungeon you are either a leecher or there to be carried. 5) False. You are assuming people play normal dungeons for fun but very few do. It is all about the AD. 6) False. See above but try watching for people doing anything teamwork/group related in normal dungeons. Does not happen.
I mean, how dare players take a level appropriate toon with level appropriate gear and a build that's not top notch into content that's not meant to be soloable for level appropriate toons with level appropriate equipment and then not be able to kill mobs on their own. Clearly they're just looking for high levels to carry them!
...wankers.
Again, no such thing as "level appropriate" with regard to character level in normal dungeon random queues.
The level appropriate gear point is more complex as many people are missing level appropriate gear because now players level up too fast for the zones they are in so their equipment is almost always never level appropriate. This is a game balance and game design problem.
With no experience boosts, except vip, I managed to get to level 44 at the end of Neverdeath (doing almost all the content and a few skirmishes/dungeons) and if I recall correctly I used to finish Neverdeath at close to level 30. This means that if I only had random drops as equipment then this equipment would be rated for levels around 30 while I was level 44, so I dont have character level appropriate equipment even if it is level appropriate based on the zone I am in.
Yes I want a fast run since I'm mostly there for the AD but there's one thing I want far more, for new players to have as many positive experiences in the game as possible so they'll stick around and keep it alive. Not much fun playing a dead or dying game. There's a HAMSTER ton of things in this game that I can't affect in any way when it comes to what experience new players have, the ones they get in the dungeons when I'm there is something I can though.
This is why random queues were a terrible idea.
Mixing new players with people who are there for the AD was a terrible design decision as their motivations for playing were too diverse.
Cryptic were like many of the wishful thinking posters in this thread as it seems they too thought everything would be unicorns and rainbows in random queues, that people would give complete support and infinite patience to new players, but harsh reality shows most players are selfish and dont give a toss about new players and dont want new players in "their" content.
And frankly I find mentalities of preferring a dead game and alienating new players very odd. But it takes all sorts and all of that.
Mentalities, yeah. I said nothing of the sort. How did you jump from what I said to your exceptionally stupid claim that I prefer a dead game?. No one is talking about a dead game except you. As for the alienation of new players point, tell that to whoever thought mixing new and not new players would end well.
We have had plenty of threads where people have said dont put new and old players in the same content as it does not work well, so new players should have their own queue so they have a better initial experience. As we have seen from these plenty of threads, non-new players are not going to change how they play just because Cryptic or the posters in this thread express wishful thinking for them to change.
I will say it in a way that even someone as limited as you as you can understand: 1) Not new players do not want new players in "their" content. 2) New players do not want not new players in "their" content. 3) Split them up so new and not new are not in the same content. Have fun making stuff up stuff I never said out of this...
Oh, dear.... It looks like someone forgot to do their research. Next time, before you post, you may want to talk to your friends, the ones that have been playing the game for more than a year or two. That way you can avoid swallowing a foot or two. The way dungeons are run has changed over the last mod or three. Previously, not only di your character have to reach a certain level to unlock each dungeon, but each dungeon queue was locked out once you moved beyond the level cap. When you were 5 or 10 levels above the recommended level for cloak tower, you could not queue to get in. the only way to run these dungeons was to form a party and go in the front door. That is the definition of "level appropriate". No for you.
Quoting just grabs the post where you hit the button and adds the tags to it, so you can quote many posts in one post by just clicking them... That will add them to the post field
Yes! That works so well! You are terribly smart and helpful!
Quoting just grabs the post where you hit the button and adds the tags to it, so you can quote many posts in one post by just clicking them... That will add them to the post field
Ah! thank you Preechr! Nice to see a more experience (or "higher lvl") poster helping out a newb instead of getting all peeved and annoyed that I didn't already know this lol
Had the best run ever with a speed scummer yesterday. - was in the Spider with my 68 GWF, a 70 HR, and an onlevel GWF. Now either the onlevel was some scummer's alt or badly brought up 'cause as soon as we start moving, this goofball goes sprinting off - trailing spiders, slavers, and assassins from his/her shoelaces. The 70 and I must've been thinking the exact same thing because suddenly we had all the time in the world. Is that a treasure chest over there? And look at that gorgeous stalactite - I feel the need to stand here and stare at it. Oh, a skill check! I simply must try it out.
Pretty soon the scummer's bleeding green. Oh deary me. The mobs must have caught up after all. Well, that does tend to happen.
And now the scummer's dying, my oh my.
We trot on. Sadly the scummer had gotten too far ahead to save, but we cleaned up the mess while the player respawned back at the beginning. And once the erstwhile scummer caught up again - you never saw such penitence. No more sprinting off ahead. No more ignoring the at wills and encounter powers - like a whole new person, and we all continued on together to clear the dungeon in good time. I never let another player die on me if I can help it - never, not even some stranger on an open map, but in this case it felt pretty good.
Recently I posted about running a dungeon with a level 67 GWF with level 15 or lower gear and kind of wonder it it could have been the same player, but then I digress...
Unfortunately it is now possible for a person to "buy in" to Neverwinter with a level 70 character and ZERO experience. Then there are those players who level up pretty quickly by repeatedly running random content over and over whether or not they even have any 'real game experience' seem questionable to me since they seem to believe dungeons are supposed to be solo event and not a party endeavor, they sometimes have some really fine gear and enchantments but appear to lack the tactical skill or experience to survive in any actual real game content unless they can just power through it - with their running headlong into mob after mob, carelessly flying over traps and appearing to ignore their surroundings in their attempt to stay ahead of everyone else in the party.
*Note to those players; there is no medal or ribbon for arriving first and you can't get to the boss until everyone else arrives. Feel free to cuss, rant and rave all you wish... I and a lot of other players apparently, are staying with the lesser experienced player or slowest moving player and moving at their speed even if we can move faster and as for me (since I usually don't feel it proper to speak for others, particularly by over generalizations), no I won't vote to kick anyone out just for being slow or who doesn't appear to be interested in only getting to the final boss as quickly as possible.
Then there is the sad fact that even some players, through little fault of their own, are running dungeons the way they think they are supposed to be run by rushing ahead, ignoring drops, skill kits, chest and their environment because that is what they've learned from other players during their previous runs...
But I do love it when the great educator, KARMA occasionally drops in for a visit during some of those dungeon runs.
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
Ran CC the other day. The other two were a level 70 speed runner and a level 21 DC. I stayed near the DC. At the end I took care of the side rooms with 4 orcs and chests.
The speed runner activated the circle, jumped out, activated the circle, jumped out, etc.
I told him that that wasn't going to get me to move any faster.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Answers
Many players have been mislead by the following misinformation; players exploited the Foundry, players botted the Foundry, the Foundry can no longer be repaired, etc.. The reality is Cryptic cannot find a way to financially exploit the Foundry so they see no need to financially support it. The dungeons are full of bots but they need them to keep the players happy. We are humans and we can memorize a dungeon where nothing changes, the layout, the mobs, and the rewards. The reason I seldom run dungeons, I can do them too easy, there is no challenge. The company obviously wants a "Farmville mentality" where you push a button over and over and AD pops out, but not too much, can't make everyone millionaires over night. The only reason I have to run dungeons is to show the new guys the ropes. In order to do that, I need to be able to communicate with them. They ripped out the new guy's vocal cords.
If they want to throw the dungeon bots into a tailspin, that is fine with me. All they need to do is repair and update the Foundry so the authors can make quality dungeons. Throw out these random ques and use random Foundry quests to gather the daily AD. If they did that, authors would return and dungeons would be fresh and imaginative again. To insure quality, have the developers select a list of monthly dungeons by actual play through so nothing "odd ball" gets through. I am also certain that the serious authors would be more than happy to work with the developers on design, lore, and playability.
I don't understand why anyone can blame the new players, for being in the way, when there are random Epic Dungeons on that list. You cannot tell me that the new guys are playing in the Epic Dungeons too. If you are playing in a low level dungeon, show some respect for who you are playing along side. First thing I do, level check the other two players. Everyone level 70 not a problem. If just one or more players are low level, you need to stand with them and not against them. Don't blame the new guy for you hanging out on his turf.
The problem is when you're rushing to keep up with someone who's faster than you and then end up getting ganked by the 10-20 mobs they aggro'd. You seem to forget that movement speed is different for different levels. There's no way a lvl 12 HR can keep pace with a CW or GWF or GF going full speed. This, to me, is part of the problem. If everyone's base speed were brought down to the lvl of the dungeon you're running, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't have to wait for the lower lvl toons.
I've solo'd every dungeon on most of my toons (my DC just isn't built for doing damage, so he doesn't solo alot), and I never have much problems when I take my time to work through each section or boss. So, no, I'm not expecting other to "carry me through content". I just don't appreciate or need to be jumped by everything you left eating your dust because you just wanted to big payoff of AD at the end.
That's not being disputed at all. See my comment in the previous paragraph On that, at least, we can agree. I admit I leveled my GWF and TR way too quickly (thanks to guild quests for random dungeons and skirmishes) and didn't get to really learn how to play them until I hit 70 and realized I was having problems in Dread Ring. Couldn't figure out why my rogue kept dying... until I learned that he has a totally different playstyle from my OP or GF.
The problem I see there is that the devs needed to find a why to answer the question "OK, I hit 70.... now what? Have you noticed how much more content there is after 70? More than half the game is "closed off" to you until you hit that level. So a compromise of some sort had to be reached. Personally I think a bit more options at lower levels might help (maybe require 10-15% more xp per level? I don't know, just throwing out idead).
Now, since I'm new not only to the game, but to the forums as well, could someone tell me how to quote two different sources in 1 post? I wanted to give props to Wintersmoke for adding brevity to this discussion
- was in the Spider with my 68 GWF, a 70 HR, and an onlevel GWF. Now either the onlevel was some scummer's alt or badly brought up 'cause as soon as we start moving, this goofball goes sprinting off - trailing spiders, slavers, and assassins from his/her shoelaces. The 70 and I must've been thinking the exact same thing because suddenly we had all the time in the world. Is that a treasure chest over there? And look at that gorgeous stalactite - I feel the need to stand here and stare at it. Oh, a skill check! I simply must try it out.
Pretty soon the scummer's bleeding green. Oh deary me. The mobs must have caught up after all. Well, that does tend to happen.
And now the scummer's dying, my oh my.
We trot on. Sadly the scummer had gotten too far ahead to save, but we cleaned up the mess while the player respawned back at the beginning. And once the erstwhile scummer caught up again - you never saw such penitence. No more sprinting off ahead. No more ignoring the at wills and encounter powers - like a whole new person, and we all continued on together to clear the dungeon in good time. I never let another player die on me if I can help it - never, not even some stranger on an open map, but in this case it felt pretty good.
Unfortunately it is now possible for a person to "buy in" to Neverwinter with a level 70 character and ZERO experience. Then there are those players who level up pretty quickly by repeatedly running random content over and over whether or not they even have any 'real game experience' seem questionable to me since they seem to believe dungeons are supposed to be solo event and not a party endeavor, they sometimes have some really fine gear and enchantments but appear to lack the tactical skill or experience to survive in any actual real game content unless they can just power through it - with their running headlong into mob after mob, carelessly flying over traps and appearing to ignore their surroundings in their attempt to stay ahead of everyone else in the party. Then there is the sad fact that even some players, through little fault of their own, are running dungeons the way they think they are supposed to be run by rushing ahead, ignoring drops, skill kits, chest and their environment because that is what they've learned from other players during their previous runs...
But I do love it when the great educator, KARMA occasionally drops in for a visit during some of those dungeon runs.
Thanks for sharing @frogwalloper#6494
The speed runner activated the circle, jumped out, activated the circle, jumped out, etc.
I told him that that wasn't going to get me to move any faster.