@preechr#2215 Point taken instead of "abuse", I should have said "exploit" because as far as I'm concerned that is what it is. Dungeons and Skirmishes I believe, were intended to be run once per character which is why the initial run is worth so many more astral diamonds and subsequent runs can be done but with a drastically reduced AD rewards, neither content was intended for players repeatedly running the same content solely for the purpose of grinding for AD’s.
And I still firmly believe the unintended “exploit” of allowing players to repeatedly solo queue for dungeons and skirmishes, solely for the purposes of obtaining astral diamonds was one of the problems that caused extended wait times for the more popular queues and why the random system was adopted, with no more solo queues more people were able to more quickly enter available content instead of having that content dominated by a single person… but as I said that is what I happen to believe.
I’m also beginning to believe as @frogwalloper#6494 mentioned; "alternate methods of earning astral diamonds” like programming AD rewards into awards for actually completing campaign content within the game – which of course will usually take much longer than those quick dungeon and skirmish runs, just might be the ultimate solution.
Although as I already said, I’d personally hate to see something like that happen, but if AD rewards can be tied into content intended to be run solo anyway, or content that is dependent on the cooperative nature of people working for the same goals in higher level campaign content, that would seem to solve the majority of problems people have been complaining about... Higher level players having to run with low level players, low level players having higher level players dominating the content.
@macjae Did you report the player you found who swapped characters in the middle of a random queue for “player behavior”? I’m pretty sure something like that isn’t supposed to happen, however as it appears it can happen perhaps that would be considered as another example of a program allowed exploit.
I also noticed that the party decision to kick the person out was executed when the option became available, so it took what a few extra minutes to exercise that option but in the end everything still worked out the way it was supposed to for the remaining party members it seems.
You do make some valid points about the apparent necessity for kicking some players, although I think the
If they don't understand English, they better learn it quickly...
is a little harsh, as other players could just as justified in saying
If they don't understand French, Dutch, Portuguese, Italian, whatever; they better learn it quickly...
This isn't a primarily or exclusively an English language game.
The main reason I so strongly object to decreasing the kick out timer is because it has been abused (and yes this time I actually mean abused), I’m not the only player who has been kicked out of a dungeon for no other reason than my lower level character being slower than the higher level fast runners in what was formerly known as leveling dungeons.
As for the situation you encountered, I do know the developers read the forums and as it appears some players appear to be logging on with multiple characters simultaneously (or alternately I suppose would be more correct), this is something I think they should be (and probably are) aware of, but perhaps it would give them better insight as to how much of a problem this actually seems to be if that kind of observed behavior is reported using the in game "GM: player behavior" tab more frequently.
In the meantime I still maintain my personal opinion that the primary problem isn’t with the random queue system, it is player behavior, specifically those players who intentionally exploit, abuse and attempt to cheat the system and other players. As to those kinds of players I serious doubt there is any kind of in game programming or peer pressure forum opinionating that will cause them to change their attitudes – unfortunately.
I tried to think of other things that AD could be tied to, but I couldn't come up with many, and none for really low level players: - Daily Common Cause quests - specifically the dragons - Daily Demon Hunter tasks - Campaign Zone Daily repeatable tasks - such as Icewind Dale, Sharandar, etc...
When a player completes the Blacklake District and returns the crown of Neverwinter to Sgt Knox, the player gets a "thanks for returning the crown" and that's about it... how about also giving out about 25-50 AD's in addition to the pat on the back?
When a player completes the Plague Tower campaign they get a cloak... how about adding about 60 AD's to the reward as well?
When a player completes the Tower District at level 18 (give or take) they finish with the Cloak Tower "party" quest, instead of just getting a "congratulations, you've completed the Cloak Tower"... how about giving the player something in the neighborhood of 75 AD's to boot?
When a player completes Blackdagger Ruins they have to do Grimstorm Keep, why not give the player 100 AD in addition to what they currently get for completing the Blackdagger Ruins campaign?
*No more free companions or mounts after completing a certain level. With 280 (+/-) AD's, a player should be able to purchase a basic companion or mount like the ones they currently give away from the zen market, so long as the price for those uncommon basic companions and mounts are kept at a reasonable price... maybe 20 AD's for the first companion and 55 AD's for the first mount.
In addition to giving the player a sense of self sufficiency by being able to purchase their own companion or mount (or not), it will also give them a better understanding of the workings of the zen market.
And the list of quests and campaigns go on and on, with the astral diamond rewards increasing as the content becomes more difficult...
Some people can still feel free to grind away at dungeons and skirmishes for about 250 -500 AD's each time they do those runs, but the real payouts will be in starting and completing actual game content - not doing dungeon and skirmish runs over and over again ad nauseam.
Oh and when players have completed each area content once for the big payout, can still go back and repeat those completed campaign quests, but instead of getting a big AD payout at the end (players can only do those end game dungeons once per character for the big AD payout) they will be able to pick up salvageable items from repeating quests and missions in various areas they’ve already completed with the salvage value of those items increasing with higher level and more difficult content (with a daily cap of items able to be salvaged per character or account of course)... or as we can currently, players can sell items from drops (even salvagable items) in the auction house.
And that's just off the top of my head without putting a great deal of thought into it.
But I suspect something like that would take a great deal of reprogramming to bring about those kinds of changes.
*No more free companions or mounts after completing a certain level. With 280 (+/-) AD's, a player should be able to purchase a basic companion or mount like the ones they currently give away from the zen market, so long as the price for those uncommon basic companions and mounts are kept at a reasonable price... maybe 20 AD's for the first companion and 55 AD's for the first mount.
In addition to giving the player a sense of self sufficiency by being able to purchase their own companion or mount (or not), it will also give them a better understanding of the workings of the zen market.
Did you mean the Auction House? Keep in mind 280 AD is not even 1 Zen. On PC right now it is 1 Zen = 500 AD. To use Ad on the Zen market they would have to do an exchange.
Not trying to take away from your idea, just wanted to clarify.
*No more free companions or mounts after completing a certain level. With 280 (+/-) AD's, a player should be able to purchase a basic companion or mount like the ones they currently give away from the zen market, so long as the price for those uncommon basic companions and mounts are kept at a reasonable price... maybe 20 AD's for the first companion and 55 AD's for the first mount.
In addition to giving the player a sense of self sufficiency by being able to purchase their own companion or mount (or not), it will also give them a better understanding of the workings of the zen market.
Did you mean the Auction House? Keep in mind 280 AD is not even 1 Zen. On PC right now it is 1 Zen = 500 AD. To use Ad on the Zen market they would have to do an exchange.
Not trying to take away from your idea, just wanted to clarify.
No I did mean "zen market" (not zen exchange), right now players can purchase mount from market for token they get from Knox upon reaching level 20 a free companion can be picked up at the trade of blades upon reaching level 18.
Neverwinter could just expand on their current idea for the shimmering lockbox and sell the keys for the shimmering lock boxes, or maybe a two time discount coupon for those shimmering lockbox keys, one that would make the purchase possible for 20 AD's to get a companion and later one that would make a purchase possible to get a mount... if a player really wants to open those lock boxes, (considering what it currently has in the shimmering lockboxes that might be iffy in my opinion), or the player can save their AD's to perhaps purchase a better mount or companion later on as they accumulate more AD's but allow players to purchase a companion or mount with something of value they've actually earned, instead of just giving one away one of those items just for leveling up.... but like I said I didn't put a lot of thought into my suggestion at the time.
On massively nerfing AD rewards, I would like this as it would completely crash the AD/zen exchange rate and I have lots of AD so would become super rich in both zen and AD by doing nothing.
This would really suck for new players as they could not leech off others...so two good points for doing this!
I believe it would also discourage any level player who repeatedly run dungeons and skirmishes primarily as a get-rich scheme for massive amounts of AD's from doing so.
You might consider hanging on to your stockpile of AD's, the zen market is currently capped at 500 AD-1 zen and I see no reason to lift the cap because of these changes. The worst that could happen as I figure it is those people who have tons of AD, will be still be spending their AD for things they currently spend them on (only more frugally) and with more players playing the content, getting their own AD's it could have an effect on the auction house prices - but then again it may not...
Sorry to burst your bubble but there would be no additional profit selling zen for AD's by way of lifting the cap in the zen exchange. This would be a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned just encourage more profit-mongering by some players who are already engaged in that kind of behavior.
I believe it would also discourage any level player who repeatedly run dungeons and skirmishes primarily as a get-rich scheme for massive amounts of AD's from doing so.
Uh, what? Running dungeons to earn AD is a bad thing? You want to discourage people from running dungeons repeatedly? What exactly are people supposed to be doing, then?
You might consider hanging on to your stockpile of AD's, the zen market is currently capped at 500 AD-1 zen and I see no reason to lift the cap because of these changes. The worst that could happen as I figure it is those people who have tons of AD, will be still be spending their AD for things they currently spend them on (only more frugally) and with more players playing the content, getting their own AD's it could have an effect on the auction house prices - but then again it may not...
If AD production in the economy goes down, you get deflation. That leads to those who have a lot of AD hoarding it, while those who do not would have to lower their prices. Reducing AD rewards in the game would be a surefire way to impoverish newer players. The goal should be to get them going more smoothly, not to have them end up in some sort of Hunger Games scenario.
Sorry to burst your bubble but there would be no additional profit selling zen for AD's by way of lifting the cap in the zen exchange. This would be a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned just encourage more profit-mongering by some players who are already engaged in that kind of behavior.
The exchange rate cap is a great and easy way to earn AD.
Never said running dungeons to earn AD’s is a bad thing, but it’s not really what I personally consider ‘playing the game’ either. As far as I’m concerned if people are so bored with the content of Neverwinter that the only thing they can think of for enjoyment is repeatedly running dungeons for AD’s and using their gains to trade in goods to try to make even more AD’s that’s fine, everybody has their idea of entertainment, but I happen to believe those people should not hamper other players who are trying to actually play the rest of the game content or improve their characters so they can more efficiently play the rest of the game content.
If players are able to make their own AD’s by actually playing the game, who cares if the people who have a lot of AD’s hoard them? Hoarders have been trying to control the Neverwinter economy for too long in my opinion, they use their “lots of AD’s” to try to control the zen exchange and the auction house prices, if players were able to earn their own AD’s and not be enticed to jump through the hoops the hoarders hold in front of them, so much the better as far as I’m concerned…
The zen exchange rate cap is great, it keeps those people who have “lots of AD’s” from attempting to manipulate the zen exchange like they try to manipulate the zen market… buying cheap, inflating the price and trying to resell just because they have those “lots of AD’s”. They can still manipulate the exchange to a limit and that limit just happens to be 500 AD = 1 Zen currently.
I get it now. You dont just hate high level players, you hate smart players and successful players too. You hate players who have played the game well and who now have good equipment and boons as you want them nerfed.
If I ascribe a motivation of jealously to you then all your posts start to make a perverse sense.
Apparently you don’t get it, if everyone who enters a dungeon or skirmish does so on an equal basis, with no player able to easily out run the rest of the people in the party using their personal enchantments and boons, or able to completely dominate the opponents in a dungeon or skirmish with their enhanced gear and boons, where’s the problem in something like that… except for the players who currently speed run through dungeons and have the ability to abandon the rest of their party because with their gear and enhancements they can easily solo the content and defeat any opponent they encounter?
Just because you have better gear or enhanced mobility that doesn’t make you a smarter or more successful player, maybe an opportunistic player with more experience who tries to uses that experience and over time acquired gear to attempt to dictate to lower level, less experienced or lower geared players how they should be running dungeons or skirmishes or be tagged as a “scummy player”, but I wouldn't necessarily consider higher level or more experienced players who do that smarter or more successful - but then I suppose we all have our own personal opinions of what actually constitutes "smarter and more successful" I suppose.
I don’t hate high level players, the majority of characters in my account are 70+ some of them with 10K gear scores or better… what I do hate is people thinking just because they have higher level players, with higher gear scores that they should be able to dictate terms to lower level, lesser geared players how to play the content they are in or attempt to penalize them for not doing so.
Nothing to do with the cap. If you significantly nerf the AD creation as you want then all that happens is that AD people now have becomes more valuable to them.
The AD/Zen exchange rate of 500:1 would reposition itself at a lower number and your idea is a significant nerf to AD creation and would probably see AD/Zen more like early days numbers of 200:1.
Most smart people with large amounts of Zen would immediately sell it at 500 AD if they thought a crash was coming, and this massive amount of zen entering the market would definitely cause a crash just by itself, then buy the zen back when the market stabilises at the lower amount. All existing rich players would become richer even if it takes a few months for the exchange rate to reposition itself. They have the AD in the bank so no need to rush in repurchasing the Zen they sold.
The market chaos would be nice too and so would the economic depression this would cause. Excellent opportunities for the now even more AD rich players...
I dont think the devs would do ever something like this as they have just introduced RQ's but you never can tell and I think I would make about 200million AD profit from this so I definitely do support nerfing peoples AD incomes.
When I began playing Neverwinter the usual going price for zen was about 350 AD, the market would fluctuate going as low as below 200 and as high as 480 or even as high as 500 at times, but it never stayed at 500 for months on end because usually there was usually always someone willing to undercut the higher sellers to make that exchange.
Now with so many wannabe game 1%ers having such an excessive amount of AD’s, those players now try to monopolize the zen exchange, buying zen low, then relisting at a higher price. I can’t think of a time in the last several years where the price of zen on the exchange has been below 490 for 1 zen.
That may be what some people consider “playing the game”, but speaking for myself I’d rather purchase zen from PWE when they have their bonus sales than provide a profit monger with even more ammunition to attempt to manipulate the exchange or the auction house even more than they currently do.
As far as I’m concerned those kinds of players can sit on their profits and try to hatch them, but that's just my personal opinion.
I’ve been keeping track since my first post, and in the last 30 or so dungeons, I’ve only had one AFK at the beginning of the dungeon, and just a few others who stopped midway for whatever reason and we had to wait for them for more than a minute. There were plenty of “slower” players, but they kept moving, and nobody had to wait all that long.
Without exception, the scummiest players were all faster/higher level players. I’m not talking about the fast ones that actually make a point of killing as they go. While it may irritate many players since it’s a self-serving way to play, no one can deny that it’s efficient and actually takes some measure of skill.
No, the ones I take issue with are the ones that race off and do nothing other than steamroll a couple minibosses. They leave everyone else to wade through a morass of foes while they go afk at the exit, and no longer participate. It’s merely annoying if the one left behind is a higher level character, but that’s not always going to be the case. It’s a stupid mentality too because no one’s clearing the dungeon faster than the slowest character, and by forcing that character to fight every inch of the way all on his/her own only ensures that the dungeon’s going to take longer.
As @spunkmeier noted, these dungeons are “now random queues where anyone is eligible,” including players who AREN’T 12K+ running with profiles specced specifically for movement, or sprinting/slipping, or wading past mobs without having to fight them.
I'm beginning to think the Devs made the best possible choice, really. If they remove RADs from dungeons, then dungeon crawling’s going to drop precipitously. Most people would never repeat those dungeons without an incentive. If they move RADs to open world content, then that creates its own problems. I suppose everyone has to just grit their teeth every now and then when they’re paired up with players that annoy them. Personally, I feel better since I’ve been keeping track. It turns out that for my playstyle, the really annoying outliers aren’t as common as I first thought – under 20%. I can see how it’s a lot worse from the perspective of a speed scummer with a dozen characters to get through, but frankly, I could care less. That’s exactly what happens when you try to juggle that many characters. They’ve got no one to blame but themselves.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
I have sat and waited outside the door to fight Traven for 15 minutes while a new player explored. There wasn't anything left to kill. They were exploring.
Meanwhile, the bot that was in the run with us disconnected.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Another possibility that occurred to me: We're already able to exchange Seals of the Adventurer for rad. How about being able to exchange Campaign Currencies for rad as well: Thayan Scrolls, Vanguard Scrips, Dragon Sigils, etc...
Another possibility that occurred to me: We're already able to exchange Seals of the Adventurer for rad. How about being able to exchange Campaign Currencies for rad as well: Thayan Scrolls, Vanguard Scrips, Dragon Sigils, etc...
actually if you have guile you can currently exchange dragon sigils for AD (yes, the refined kind)
Yeah, this sounds good to me: - Rebalance the RAD rewards for random leveling dungeons to discourage the problematic speed scummers, yet leave enough of a reward that they're still worthwhile for lower level players who are mostly incapable of speed scumming anyway. - Greatly increase the RAD rewards for random epic dungeons, but also raise the requirements and ignore guild bonuses that contribute to false Item Levels. Refine the Kick feature so that the inevitable scummers can be quickly and fairly dealt with. - Add RAD exchange for all Campaign Seals and Currencies - make it a Campaign Task or something.
I don't mind playing with newbies in lower dungeons by means of random queue. I'm more concerned and pissed with the traps there... It's like I need to bring 50 - 100 injury kits per week. Annoying traps.
A " cooperative effort", nope. You are expected to carry your weight and be able to contribute, if you cannot then very few players have any sympathy for you. This is the case in every single game, get good or get out.
Most people are completely focused on their normal dungeon run, they dont care about others and wont help them. I have seen a decent number of people die in normal dungeons and cant remember the last time I saw the other player save them. You know I would not be close enough to them and would not help them anyway as learning they are rubbish is good for them as a motivation to improve.
WOW. You really don't understand the concept of what the "G" in PUG means, do you? If you really want to go as quickly as possible through the dungeon just to get to the endboss, then maybe just go in the dungeon on the solo queue.
The whole point of a "leveling dungeon" is so that those who need better gear and skills can get them. How else are they supposed to learn what their toons can or can't do, or how to effectively use their abilities in a group setting if they just avoid these dungeons so you and the other speedsters can get to the endboss?
Here is an example of where teamwork actually helpd - Caverns of Karrundax. If you're a high end, ilvl 9k+ toon just zipping past everything, guess what happens to the lvl 60 just trying to keep up? He gets swamped with the aggro'd mobs you ran by. He dies and has to respawn at the last campsite. You're waiting. He has to figure out how to either beat the mobs or get past without getting killed. You're waiting. He starts making progress. You finally get fed up and vote to kick him off. But it's not your fault he died, is it?
I've gone through the dungeon a number of times, and I've been at both ends of the speed spectrum. Guess which group got through it quicker? The one that actually worked together as a group. Yes, some are gonna be faster or slower than others, but at the end of the day you know what? The ones that got through as a group learned how to play a littler more effectively.
I don't mind playing with newbies in lower dungeons by means of random queue. I'm more concerned and pissed with the traps there... It's like I need to bring 50 - 100 injury kits per week. Annoying traps.
New players who think they have to speed through random content to keep up with other party members is probably a factor in those newbies hitting so many traps... but eventually most newbies learn to avoid those traps - hopefully.
Traps are just a part of that particular content, that most of the traps appear to be more or less clearly marked for players actually looking for them helps and that the traps always appear in the same locations no matter how many times you run the same content is a definate plus as far as I'm concerned.
Aside from that the fact that injury kits are reletively cheap and just a couple of dungeon runs can provide all the coinage a player needs to buy several (if they don't just ignore coin drops in dungeons) is one more plus.
I haven't accidentally hit a trap in random content in a long while, now getting hit with an arrow trap when another player or their companion rushes past me is another matter entirely and that's why I carry at least 15 injury kits in my speed inventory whenever I'm in random content... I also have my merchant vendor available for other players who don't have injury kits - but wish they did in randoms.
I am not immune to Traps, but I don't carry injury kits with me. If you run the dungeon with me, I know where they are and announce it. I was in Cragmire and came to the dark hallway and said, "Keep left traps ahead." and for some reason they asked me if I was RPing... no if I am RPing in a dungeon you will probably not like me since most of my characters are not "good people". If I am running one of my 2 TRs, then I attempt to disarm the traps. But in most cases people just step on them while I am disarming it.
Sadly there are no real random dungeons as in randomly designed. I believe it shouldn't be too difficult to generate random dungeons on the fly and those would make me want to run them. As it stands, I barely touch the random ones. Once in a while, I hit an epic dungeon or do the weekly lairs. But it is hard to find anything entertaining, when you cannot communicate within the dungeons to most players.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
Your preferred method of running dungeons isn't much of any experience. The fact that you don't get "party" or "group" is on you.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I mean, how dare players take a level appropriate toon with level appropriate gear and a build that's not top notch into content that's not meant to be soloable for level appropriate toons with level appropriate equipment and then not be able to kill mobs on their own. Clearly they're just looking for high levels to carry them!
And how dare new player not know every single short cut and the sometimes odd run patters that are needed to avoid mobs and then struggle with mobs speed scummers have left behind them after just running through.
Clearly it's not the speed scummers fault that these players die and it's perfectly okay to kick a level appropriate toon in level appropriate gear for a dungeon for not being op and able to solo the content. After all, player should know better than take level appropriate toons with level appropriate gear into a dungeon meant for their level, one is play allowed to run these dungeons in public queue if op. The sheer temerity of these players cannot be borne. /s
Do you guys even hear yourself? Talk about being self-entitled wankers.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
1) "Levelling dungeons", no such thing. It is random queues now. There are no "level appropriate" dungeons either.
False. There are even some skirmishes that level 70 can no participate in, if you skipped the Blacklake skirmish you can no longer get the "Hero of Blacklake" title. They just don't lock us out of the Cloak Tower because we have too few dungeons already in this game. I doubt we will ever see "Throne of Idris" or "Lair of the Mad Dragon" return to the game.
2) The vast majority of people want fast runs. This is the paradigm and always has been.
False. The lower players fear they will be kicked by logging in with level 70. So they keep up. Just last night I did Cloak Tower with a 20 and 12. We took our time and I showed them how to collect the 6 items for those 2 lame reward chests but they thought it was "cool". Just because you want something doesn't make everyone else want it too.
3) CoK, anyone with any smarts leaves both CoK and SP instantly. It is not worth the hassle and it is not worth it AD wise either.
So that may have been you in the Spell Plague Caverns who DC'ed on me last month? I ran the SPC solo until I reached the end and kicked the one DC the other did the honorable thing and abandoned. Then I requested reinforcements. We killed the boss and left. About the only time I would think about taking off is an unexpected visit from my sister. And then, I would inform the others I must abandon the dungeon and take the penalty. I only hope others do the honorable exit as I would.
5) Many people would prefer to do solo queues for their AD. This would allow them more control over their game experience.
False. Some people would, but the majority of us are playing to have fun. How can you have fun alone in a social game? Sounds to me you just want to play a solo version of Neverwinter and toss in an online pub where you can gloat about your victories.
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
FALSE. This is a fantasy game, but after reading this statement, I seriously question how you manage in the real world. In the real world, everything from employment to social activities, like football, require teamwork. I suppose we are all just shadows to you and we should all be grateful to be in your awesome presence. I don't think we need to hear 7 as it seems you don't understand "There is no I in T-E-A-M.".
1) "Levelling dungeons", no such thing. It is random queues now. There are no "level appropriate" dungeons either.
False. There are even some skirmishes that level 70 can no participate in, if you skipped the Blacklake skirmish you can no longer get the "Hero of Blacklake" title. They just don't lock us out of the Cloak Tower because we have too few dungeons already in this game. I doubt we will ever see "Throne of Idris" or "Lair of the Mad Dragon" return to the game.
2) The vast majority of people want fast runs. This is the paradigm and always has been.
False. The lower players fear they will be kicked by logging in with level 70. So they keep up. Just last night I did Cloak Tower with a 20 and 12. We took our time and I showed them how to collect the 6 items for those 2 lame reward chests but they thought it was "cool". Just because you want something doesn't make everyone else want it too.
3) CoK, anyone with any smarts leaves both CoK and SP instantly. It is not worth the hassle and it is not worth it AD wise either.
So that may have been you in the Spell Plague Caverns who DC'ed on me last month? I ran the SPC solo until I reached the end and kicked the one DC the other did the honorable thing and abandoned. Then I requested reinforcements. We killed the boss and left. About the only time I would think about taking off is an unexpected visit from my sister. And then, I would inform the others I must abandon the dungeon and take the penalty. I only hope others do the honorable exit as I would.
5) Many people would prefer to do solo queues for their AD. This would allow them more control over their game experience.
False. Some people would, but the majority of us are playing to have fun. How can you have fun alone in a social game? Sounds to me you just want to play a solo version of Neverwinter and toss in an online pub where you can gloat about your victories.
6) The idea of there being a group or teamwork existing in normal dungeon random queues is a fantasy.
FALSE. This is a fantasy game, but after reading this statement, I seriously question how you manage in the real world. In the real world, everything from employment to social activities, like football, require teamwork. I suppose we are all just shadows to you and we should all be grateful to be in your awesome presence. I don't think we need to hear 7 as it seems you don't understand "There is no I in T-E-A-M.".
Thank you for dealing with all of this in detail, you have much more patience than me. I have just one thing I'd like to add re: #2. Yes I want a fast run since I'm mostly there for the AD but there's one thing I want far more, for new players to have as many positive experiences in the game as possible so they'll stick around and keep it alive. Not much fun playing a dead or dying game. There's a HAMSTER ton of things in this game that I can't affect in any way when it comes to what experience new players have, the ones they get in the dungeons when I'm there is something I can though.
And frankly I find mentalities of preferring a dead game and alienating new players very odd. But it takes all sorts and all of that.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
... Cloak Tower... showed them how to collect the 6 items for those 2 lame reward chests...
I kind of think those are worth unlocking - only takes a few more seconds, and every now and then you're rewarded with a rare resource. Same with the other treasure chests that a lot of players just pass by.
I mean, how dare players take a level appropriate toon with level appropriate gear and a build that's not top notch into content that's not meant to be soloable for level appropriate toons with level appropriate equipment and then not be able to kill mobs on their own. Clearly they're just looking for high levels to carry them!
And how dare new player not know every single short cut and the sometimes odd run patters that are needed to avoid mobs and then struggle with mobs speed scummers have left behind them after just running through.
Clearly it's not the speed scummers fault that these players die and it's perfectly okay to kick a level appropriate toon in level appropriate gear for a dungeon for not being op and able to solo the content. After all, player should know better than take level appropriate toons with level appropriate gear into a dungeon meant for their level, one is play allowed to run these dungeons in public queue if op. The sheer temerity of these players cannot be borne. /s
Do you guys even hear yourself? Talk about being self-entitled wankers.
Answers
And I still firmly believe the unintended “exploit” of allowing players to repeatedly solo queue for dungeons and skirmishes, solely for the purposes of obtaining astral diamonds was one of the problems that caused extended wait times for the more popular queues and why the random system was adopted, with no more solo queues more people were able to more quickly enter available content instead of having that content dominated by a single person… but as I said that is what I happen to believe.
I’m also beginning to believe as @frogwalloper#6494 mentioned; "alternate methods of earning astral diamonds” like programming AD rewards into awards for actually completing campaign content within the game – which of course will usually take much longer than those quick dungeon and skirmish runs, just might be the ultimate solution.
Although as I already said, I’d personally hate to see something like that happen, but if AD rewards can be tied into content intended to be run solo anyway, or content that is dependent on the cooperative nature of people working for the same goals in higher level campaign content, that would seem to solve the majority of problems people have been complaining about... Higher level players having to run with low level players, low level players having higher level players dominating the content.
@macjae Did you report the player you found who swapped characters in the middle of a random queue for “player behavior”? I’m pretty sure something like that isn’t supposed to happen, however as it appears it can happen perhaps that would be considered as another example of a program allowed exploit.
I also noticed that the party decision to kick the person out was executed when the option became available, so it took what a few extra minutes to exercise that option but in the end everything still worked out the way it was supposed to for the remaining party members it seems.
You do make some valid points about the apparent necessity for kicking some players, although I think the is a little harsh, as other players could just as justified in saying This isn't a primarily or exclusively an English language game.
The main reason I so strongly object to decreasing the kick out timer is because it has been abused (and yes this time I actually mean abused), I’m not the only player who has been kicked out of a dungeon for no other reason than my lower level character being slower than the higher level fast runners in what was formerly known as leveling dungeons.
As for the situation you encountered, I do know the developers read the forums and as it appears some players appear to be logging on with multiple characters simultaneously (or alternately I suppose would be more correct), this is something I think they should be (and probably are) aware of, but perhaps it would give them better insight as to how much of a problem this actually seems to be if that kind of observed behavior is reported using the in game "GM: player behavior" tab more frequently.
In the meantime I still maintain my personal opinion that the primary problem isn’t with the random queue system, it is player behavior, specifically those players who intentionally exploit, abuse and attempt to cheat the system and other players. As to those kinds of players I serious doubt there is any kind of in game programming or peer pressure forum opinionating that will cause them to change their attitudes – unfortunately.
- Daily Common Cause quests - specifically the dragons
- Daily Demon Hunter tasks
- Campaign Zone Daily repeatable tasks - such as Icewind Dale, Sharandar, etc...
When a player completes the Plague Tower campaign they get a cloak... how about adding about 60 AD's to the reward as well?
When a player completes the Tower District at level 18 (give or take) they finish with the Cloak Tower "party" quest, instead of just getting a "congratulations, you've completed the Cloak Tower"... how about giving the player something in the neighborhood of 75 AD's to boot?
When a player completes Blackdagger Ruins they have to do Grimstorm Keep, why not give the player 100 AD in addition to what they currently get for completing the Blackdagger Ruins campaign?
*No more free companions or mounts after completing a certain level. With 280 (+/-) AD's, a player should be able to purchase a basic companion or mount like the ones they currently give away from the zen market, so long as the price for those uncommon basic companions and mounts are kept at a reasonable price... maybe 20 AD's for the first companion and 55 AD's for the first mount.
In addition to giving the player a sense of self sufficiency by being able to purchase their own companion or mount (or not), it will also give them a better understanding of the workings of the zen market.
And the list of quests and campaigns go on and on, with the astral diamond rewards increasing as the content becomes more difficult...
Some people can still feel free to grind away at dungeons and skirmishes for about 250 -500 AD's each time they do those runs, but the real payouts will be in starting and completing actual game content - not doing dungeon and skirmish runs over and over again ad nauseam.
Oh and when players have completed each area content once for the big payout, can still go back and repeat those completed campaign quests, but instead of getting a big AD payout at the end (players can only do those end game dungeons once per character for the big AD payout) they will be able to pick up salvageable items from repeating quests and missions in various areas they’ve already completed with the salvage value of those items increasing with higher level and more difficult content (with a daily cap of items able to be salvaged per character or account of course)... or as we can currently, players can sell items from drops (even salvagable items) in the auction house.
And that's just off the top of my head without putting a great deal of thought into it.
But I suspect something like that would take a great deal of reprogramming to bring about those kinds of changes.
Not trying to take away from your idea, just wanted to clarify.
Neverwinter could just expand on their current idea for the shimmering lockbox and sell the keys for the shimmering lock boxes, or maybe a two time discount coupon for those shimmering lockbox keys, one that would make the purchase possible for 20 AD's to get a companion and later one that would make a purchase possible to get a mount... if a player really wants to open those lock boxes, (considering what it currently has in the shimmering lockboxes that might be iffy in my opinion), or the player can save their AD's to perhaps purchase a better mount or companion later on as they accumulate more AD's but allow players to purchase a companion or mount with something of value they've actually earned, instead of just giving one away one of those items just for leveling up.... but like I said I didn't put a lot of thought into my suggestion at the time. I believe it would also discourage any level player who repeatedly run dungeons and skirmishes primarily as a get-rich scheme for massive amounts of AD's from doing so.
You might consider hanging on to your stockpile of AD's, the zen market is currently capped at 500 AD-1 zen and I see no reason to lift the cap because of these changes. The worst that could happen as I figure it is those people who have tons of AD, will be still be spending their AD for things they currently spend them on (only more frugally) and with more players playing the content, getting their own AD's it could have an effect on the auction house prices - but then again it may not...
Sorry to burst your bubble but there would be no additional profit selling zen for AD's by way of lifting the cap in the zen exchange. This would be a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned just encourage more profit-mongering by some players who are already engaged in that kind of behavior.
If players are able to make their own AD’s by actually playing the game, who cares if the people who have a lot of AD’s hoard them? Hoarders have been trying to control the Neverwinter economy for too long in my opinion, they use their “lots of AD’s” to try to control the zen exchange and the auction house prices, if players were able to earn their own AD’s and not be enticed to jump through the hoops the hoarders hold in front of them, so much the better as far as I’m concerned…
The zen exchange rate cap is great, it keeps those people who have “lots of AD’s” from attempting to manipulate the zen exchange like they try to manipulate the zen market… buying cheap, inflating the price and trying to resell just because they have those “lots of AD’s”. They can still manipulate the exchange to a limit and that limit just happens to be 500 AD = 1 Zen currently.
Just because you have better gear or enhanced mobility that doesn’t make you a smarter or more successful player, maybe an opportunistic player with more experience who tries to uses that experience and over time acquired gear to attempt to dictate to lower level, less experienced or lower geared players how they should be running dungeons or skirmishes or be tagged as a “scummy player”, but I wouldn't necessarily consider higher level or more experienced players who do that smarter or more successful - but then I suppose we all have our own personal opinions of what actually constitutes "smarter and more successful" I suppose.
I don’t hate high level players, the majority of characters in my account are 70+ some of them with 10K gear scores or better… what I do hate is people thinking just because they have higher level players, with higher gear scores that they should be able to dictate terms to lower level, lesser geared players how to play the content they are in or attempt to penalize them for not doing so. When I began playing Neverwinter the usual going price for zen was about 350 AD, the market would fluctuate going as low as below 200 and as high as 480 or even as high as 500 at times, but it never stayed at 500 for months on end because usually there was usually always someone willing to undercut the higher sellers to make that exchange.
Now with so many wannabe game 1%ers having such an excessive amount of AD’s, those players now try to monopolize the zen exchange, buying zen low, then relisting at a higher price. I can’t think of a time in the last several years where the price of zen on the exchange has been below 490 for 1 zen.
That may be what some people consider “playing the game”, but speaking for myself I’d rather purchase zen from PWE when they have their bonus sales than provide a profit monger with even more ammunition to attempt to manipulate the exchange or the auction house even more than they currently do.
As far as I’m concerned those kinds of players can sit on their profits and try to hatch them, but that's just my personal opinion.
Without exception, the scummiest players were all faster/higher level players. I’m not talking about the fast ones that actually make a point of killing as they go. While it may irritate many players since it’s a self-serving way to play, no one can deny that it’s efficient and actually takes some measure of skill.
No, the ones I take issue with are the ones that race off and do nothing other than steamroll a couple minibosses. They leave everyone else to wade through a morass of foes while they go afk at the exit, and no longer participate. It’s merely annoying if the one left behind is a higher level character, but that’s not always going to be the case. It’s a stupid mentality too because no one’s clearing the dungeon faster than the slowest character, and by forcing that character to fight every inch of the way all on his/her own only ensures that the dungeon’s going to take longer.
As @spunkmeier noted, these dungeons are “now random queues where anyone is eligible,” including players who AREN’T 12K+ running with profiles specced specifically for movement, or sprinting/slipping, or wading past mobs without having to fight them.
I'm beginning to think the Devs made the best possible choice, really. If they remove RADs from dungeons, then dungeon crawling’s going to drop precipitously. Most people would never repeat those dungeons without an incentive. If they move RADs to open world content, then that creates its own problems. I suppose everyone has to just grit their teeth every now and then when they’re paired up with players that annoy them. Personally, I feel better since I’ve been keeping track. It turns out that for my playstyle, the really annoying outliers aren’t as common as I first thought – under 20%. I can see how it’s a lot worse from the perspective of a speed scummer with a dozen characters to get through, but frankly, I could care less. That’s exactly what happens when you try to juggle that many characters. They’ve got no one to blame but themselves.
Meanwhile, the bot that was in the run with us disconnected.
We're already able to exchange Seals of the Adventurer for rad.
How about being able to exchange Campaign Currencies for rad as well: Thayan Scrolls, Vanguard Scrips, Dragon Sigils, etc...
Yeah, this sounds good to me:
- Rebalance the RAD rewards for random leveling dungeons to discourage the problematic speed scummers, yet leave enough of a reward that they're still worthwhile for lower level players who are mostly incapable of speed scumming anyway.
- Greatly increase the RAD rewards for random epic dungeons, but also raise the requirements and ignore guild bonuses that contribute to false Item Levels. Refine the Kick feature so that the inevitable scummers can be quickly and fairly dealt with.
- Add RAD exchange for all Campaign Seals and Currencies - make it a Campaign Task or something.
The whole point of a "leveling dungeon" is so that those who need better gear and skills can get them. How else are they supposed to learn what their toons can or can't do, or how to effectively use their abilities in a group setting if they just avoid these dungeons so you and the other speedsters can get to the endboss?
Here is an example of where teamwork actually helpd - Caverns of Karrundax. If you're a high end, ilvl 9k+ toon just zipping past everything, guess what happens to the lvl 60 just trying to keep up? He gets swamped with the aggro'd mobs you ran by. He dies and has to respawn at the last campsite. You're waiting. He has to figure out how to either beat the mobs or get past without getting killed. You're waiting. He starts making progress. You finally get fed up and vote to kick him off. But it's not your fault he died, is it?
I've gone through the dungeon a number of times, and I've been at both ends of the speed spectrum. Guess which group got through it quicker? The one that actually worked together as a group. Yes, some are gonna be faster or slower than others, but at the end of the day you know what? The ones that got through as a group learned how to play a littler more effectively.
Traps are just a part of that particular content, that most of the traps appear to be more or less clearly marked for players actually looking for them helps and that the traps always appear in the same locations no matter how many times you run the same content is a definate plus as far as I'm concerned.
Aside from that the fact that injury kits are reletively cheap and just a couple of dungeon runs can provide all the coinage a player needs to buy several (if they don't just ignore coin drops in dungeons) is one more plus.
I haven't accidentally hit a trap in random content in a long while, now getting hit with an arrow trap when another player or their companion rushes past me is another matter entirely and that's why I carry at least 15 injury kits in my speed inventory whenever I'm in random content... I also have my merchant vendor available for other players who don't have injury kits - but wish they did in randoms.
Sadly there are no real random dungeons as in randomly designed. I believe it shouldn't be too difficult to generate random dungeons on the fly and those would make me want to run them. As it stands, I barely touch the random ones. Once in a while, I hit an epic dungeon or do the weekly lairs. But it is hard to find anything entertaining, when you cannot communicate within the dungeons to most players.
I mean, how dare players take a level appropriate toon with level appropriate gear and a build that's not top notch into content that's not meant to be soloable for level appropriate toons with level appropriate equipment and then not be able to kill mobs on their own. Clearly they're just looking for high levels to carry them!
And how dare new player not know every single short cut and the sometimes odd run patters that are needed to avoid mobs and then struggle with mobs speed scummers have left behind them after just running through.
Clearly it's not the speed scummers fault that these players die and it's perfectly okay to kick a level appropriate toon in level appropriate gear for a dungeon for not being op and able to solo the content. After all, player should know better than take level appropriate toons with level appropriate gear into a dungeon meant for their level, one is play allowed to run these dungeons in public queue if op.
The sheer temerity of these players cannot be borne. /s
Do you guys even hear yourself? Talk about being self-entitled wankers.
I have just one thing I'd like to add re: #2. Yes I want a fast run since I'm mostly there for the AD but there's one thing I want far more, for new players to have as many positive experiences in the game as possible so they'll stick around and keep it alive.
Not much fun playing a dead or dying game. There's a HAMSTER ton of things in this game that I can't affect in any way when it comes to what experience new players have, the ones they get in the dungeons when I'm there is something I can though.
And frankly I find mentalities of preferring a dead game and alienating new players very odd. But it takes all sorts and all of that.