I still think some kind of tiered system where if a player has a high character level and item score, they are restricted from entering some lower level content - and players with a lower character level and item score, would be restricted from entering some higher level content, much like the system they already have in place for some skirmishes and epics.
Or maybe we can admit the RQ system is not working as ti is designed now and allow folks beyond a perticular level to private queue to get their RAD runs.
In my opinion, no matter how much we want to point the finger at the high level or low level characters, it can't be ignored the negative impact the RQ has had on the game for many folks of all levels.
I don't think that their behavior warrants a reward, do you?
this is what happens why you try to force people to play together. Before the recent change and the addition of the random queue system we could just pick any dungeon we wanted to run and run it to earn some AD. You could even use private queue and run the low level and epic dungeons alone to earn AD. This was really good since it stopped me and others from having to help bots earn AD in said low level dungeons or being an inconvenience to low level players since we just want to fly through the dungeons to get our rewards fast so we can go do other stuff.
But the powers that be decided that forcing players to play together and not allowing them to pick which dungeons they want to run to earn AD would be a good thing and everyone would merrily get along.. must be wonderful to live in such a dream world.
Instead the random queue has become a source of dread for most players. Will I get a dungeon I absolutely hate running.. again? Will I get IG and be held hostage while the rest of the team decides to go for gold.. again? Will my requirement meeting but obviously under geared character get FBI with other requirement meeting but obviously under geared players... again? Will I have to waste my time either repeatedly failing a dungeon because the team refuses to give up or waste my time by abandoning it and getting a leaver penalty.. again?
So you see, the random queue system is an inconvenience to us all regardless of level.
According to the devs this is "efficiency" not "inconvenience."
This is the most efficient way to earn AD instead of running ETOS or Shores. They didn't like that the players only ran that skirmish and dungeon for AD. So they decided to put a stop to it. Anything you like doing in this game the devs are most likely to stop it.
Your perspective is a little off. It is not so much "OMG, we have to stop them doing XYZ..." it's more along the lines of " Ugh, how can we make them do ABC, and 123 also?"
That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone?
The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable.
Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.
Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @wintersmoke said: > That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone? > > The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway. > > No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable. > > Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me. > > > Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
Training with pros doesn't make you stronger Here... it did at one time when bis weapons dropped from dungeons.
Training with pros here doesn't upgrade your weapons or armors or enchantments.... it just wastes time.
It's not a physical thing where you get stronger by lifting weights.... if you want to compare the two then the weaker people would be the spotters that are not even spotting the lifter...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
> That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone?
>
> The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
>
> No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable.
>
> Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.
>
>
> Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
Training with pros doesn't make you stronger Here... it did at one time when bis weapons dropped from dungeons.
Training with pros here doesn't upgrade your weapons or armors or enchantments.... it just wastes time.
It's not a physical thing where you get stronger by lifting weights.... if you want to compare the two then the weaker people would be the spotters that are not even spotting the lifter...
What I had in mind was the many complaints I have seen from players that will walk out, or abandon FBI, or MSVA, because they got stuck with a newb crew that doesn't understand the "right" way to approach the content. I see, over and over again, claims that these dungeons, and even TONG, can be completed by characters much lower than the "minimum requirements" sought after by most PUG queues. But that only works if the players know what to expect, and what is expected of them. And they are supposed to learn this.... how, exactly?
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,090Arc User
Really? I tend to do a lot of recruiting for my guild running leveling dungeons.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Right. I mean why would players cooperate when it is much easier to be an HAMSTER?
Not only easier, also more lucrative.
I'm curious how is acting like a HAMSTER "more lucrative"?
A player acts like a cooperative party member, everyone gets to participate and people get the same amount of AD's at the end as a player would if they act like an inconsiderate self serving poser.
Aside from the fact of that kind of behavior being undeniably inconsiderate of other players, I can make the case for those players acting inconsiderately being less lucrative.
In a dungeon with a first time player all party members are awarded bonus AD's if the new player completes the content, of course that new player will be less experienced, slower and not equipped but most people usually make allowances for them because party members get bonus AD's.
But no bonus AD's for lower level, less experienced, slower players who aren't first timers and suddenly there's a problem putting up with players like that.
At least call it what it is instead of trying to pass it off as something more reasonable and acceptable.
Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
Training with pros doesn't make you stronger Here... it did at one time when bis weapons dropped from dungeons.
Training with pros here doesn't upgrade your weapons or armors or enchantments.... it just wastes time.
It's not a physical thing where you get stronger by lifting weights.... if you want to compare the two then the weaker people would be the spotters that are not even spotting the lifter...
I would have to respectfully disagree with your premise that lower level players going through a dungeon with more experienced, "pros" as you put it, doesn't make them any stronger or better players just by my own personal experiences.
Lower level or less experienced party members are able to often pick up better equipment, refining gems and of course the AD's at the end which gives them the means to purchase even better equipment, enchantments, companions and refining options.
Even without all of that lesser experienced party members playing with pros gives the less experienced players the benefit of a more knowledgeable players experience and even if that experience is only incidentally passed on, those techniques still makes some players better and more capable.
For instance the Spider King dungeon, no higher level player told any of the other party members about the short cuts players could take to avoid a couple of mobs, but by watching the higher level more experienced players take those short cuts we were able to learn them and now I and other players use those short cuts and pass them on to new party members.
In the Cavern of Karrundax my party learned that by riding a reasonably fast mount players could actually avoid many mob battles and just today in another dungeon that appears to be glitched, I learned if the final boss fails to materialize after defeating his lesser cronies the party can either die and reenter which will bring the boss out or apparently intentionally disconnecting and immediately reconnecting does the same thing.
So as I said I have to disagree that putting amateurs into a party with pros is a waste of time and doesn't make the less experienced players any stronger.
I saw a few comments here and I also believe that the Random Dungeons is a feature that needs a lot of refining to say the least.
One thing I wanted to say regarding the thing that the high level players leave the newbies behind and are not able to experience the dungeon fight is, how can you not leave them behind or allow them to fight? I 'll speak from my own experiense, I have my main a 12.9k TR who will get even better gear soon and one shots anything in these dungeons, and a 10.3k HR - DC who do the same. When I 'm going into these low level dungeons with those characters everything I hit is one shoted or two shoted so how can I let the lower level players experiense the combat this dunegon has to offer? I will have to not hit almost anything, sit back and just watch the lower level players hit things and maybe throw a skill or two from time to time. The problem isn't only with the higher level players but with the random system, I mean you enter a dungeon that is just far too weak for your current level as a player so you can't expect yourself or the other players to have an exciting fight it is just a chore you do as a higher lvl / IL player for the AD at the end of it which is sad but it is the truth.
In this both the higher level player and the lower level players are right, one just wants to end this boring thing and the other wants to experience this new thing and the newbies get the shorter end of the stick here.
I won't lie I 'm also speed runing through these low level dungeons but if there is someone of lower level that will ask me to explain to him how the dungeon works I will certainly do so but still I 'm not sure how many people will do this and this certainly doesn't salvage the whole situation. This random dungeon system is not in a good state atm and not to mention the bot fest, I mean these kind of systems are a boter's wet dream... Anyways I hope some changes will be done to it for the better of the lower level players and the higher level ones.
I'm curious how is acting like a HAMSTER "more lucrative"?
I can answer this one for normal dungeons. Epics and skirmishes are a bit different but the same principles apply.
If you run with useless or scummy players your average waste time is almost minutes per run. If you reduce thus then you become more efficient. Time is AD.
In a dungeon with a first time player all party members are awarded bonus AD's if the new player completes the content, of course that new player will be less experienced, slower and not equipped but most people usually make allowances for them because party members get bonus AD's.
But no bonus AD's for lower level, less experienced, slower players who aren't first timers and suddenly there's a problem putting up with players like that.
On this point, the bonus AD compared to the extra wasted time is just not worth it. If I recall the bonus AD is 600 which "buys" about an extra twenty seconds but actual new players take on average almost three minutes longer to complete.
You would be very foolish to run caverns with new players, dont waste your time with spellplague with new players ever.
So it seems you are in favor of kicking slower, less experienced players out of the party because it will add a few minutes to the time it takes for you to get your astral diamonds...
Of course completely discounting the games "estimated play time" of 15 minutes when players queue for random dungeons, if a player doesn't move fast enough by your personal standards that makes them a "skummy player".
You seem to think you have a better handle on how to play the game than the designers, developers and programmers - who in addition to producing the game with the planned prospect of being the most fair to the majority of players, also play the game.
Well, we're each entitled to our own opinion, I'm guessing you can guess what mine would be.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,090Arc User
When I run leveling dungeons I tend to stay with the group. I tend to only use At-Wills if there are low-level characters in the instance.
"Efficiency" doen't mean fast. It means with a minimum of time and effort. Efficiency also goes out the window when you have 2 other people in the instance with you. Then it becomes a cooperative effort.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I usually have a few low level accounts going in addition to my lvl 70s, so I get a chance to see both sides every day. Zipping through with other 70s to get my AD and get out is terrific. Even just chasing after a bunch of tryhards with one of my lower level/slower characters can be interesting sometimes, though I can see how that would frustrate a brand new player. But I enjoy the dungeons most when I'm in there with the newer players. It's not all that difficult to make life a bit easier for them without being a total jerk. Sure, it might cost an extra minute or two, but it can be kind of fun. I've run into exactly two other players so far that shared that mindset.
Saying lower leveled players are a problem for entering dungeons designed specifically for them is asinine. A couple people mentioned scummy players. Well scum generally floats to the top. The idea that simply being at level 70 makes you some kind of pro is a joke. In most cases if you swapped a level 70's gear and effects with the newbie's, the newbie would be the one running the show instead.
As for learning things from repeat players, from what I've seen -aside from a few shortcuts- most of them are bad habits. I've lost track of the number of lower level players that go sprinting off trailing stacks of mobs after them because they think that's the way it's supposed to be done. With them at least you can always just hang back a bit and wait for them to get sandwiched so they get the hint.
Been said plenty of times already, but it's worth saying again. It was a nice idea to mix new players with repeat players, but it's unrealistic, and it obviously isn't working. It makes so much more sense to let 70s solo those dungeons, or pair lower level players with npcs, or just find another way for players to earn AD. I like the suggestions a few people have already posted.
I was with you right up to the last paragarph where you said let level 70's solo leveling dungeons.
That was one of the problems the random queue was designed to fix, higher level players repeatedly running the same dungeons over and over again making the dungeon queue times excessively long for everyone.
@chidion said: "...higher level players repeatedly running the same dungeons over and over again making the dungeon queue times excessively long for everyone."
Oh, that's right. Someone else mentioned that too, and I forgot about it.
Too bad newer/target-level players can't somehow rate their experience with higher level players to help determine how much AD those players will get. But that would probably only be abused in the end, too, I suppose.
I did like the suggestion that someone else posted about tying bonus AD to repeatable open world tasks and quests
I'm not sure what there is to disagree with, letting level 70's solo leveling dungeons WAS one of the problems and why the developers decided to go to the random queue system in the first place, it clearly states that on the Dev Blog: Updates to Random Queues
The fact that astral diamond bonuses were paid out identically from any queue created a world where only a small subset of queues were ever run. If new players didn’t have this tribal knowledge they could end up waiting in an unpopular queue forever. Additionally, we don’t think it’s particularly exciting to run the same dungeon forever.
Now of course some people still maintan that level 70's should again be allowed to solo leveling dungeons, and perhaps that's the reason for the disagreement, but since it appears level 70's or players in general repeatedly queuing for the same content over and over again was one of the problems that seems to have brought about the change to the random queue system in the first place, I can see no reason to revert to a previous system that was being abused just because there are some abuses in the current system.
I'm not sure what there is to disagree with, letting level 70's solo leveling dungeons WAS one of the problems and why the developers decided to go to the random queue system in the first place, it clearly states that on the Dev Blog: Updates to Random Queues
The fact that astral diamond bonuses were paid out identically from any queue created a world where only a small subset of queues were ever run. If new players didn’t have this tribal knowledge they could end up waiting in an unpopular queue forever. Additionally, we don’t think it’s particularly exciting to run the same dungeon forever.
I am offering my opinions here again (I have posted all of this before so I didn't think it needed to be posted again) because my disagree seems to have bothered you. But understand my disagree was because the RQ was not the only answer nor even a good answer for the issues they outlined in that quote nor for the issues outlined in their goal list they posted.
They clearly state that having a flat pay out was an issue, as you quoted, and that did not like the symptom of that issue. Why not just make the payout reflect the dungeon and thus folks could elect to do the fast easy dungeon for less RAD or do the longer harder one for more? Why keep the very thing in that quote offered as a problem and just address the symptom?
The quote you show does not say SOLOing was the issue. Rather it is they didn't like that people were only queueing for a small number of the dungeons. No where in that quote does it refer to soloing. They clearly state a problem (flat reward) and an outcome (low number of dungeons being queued for). So rather than fix the problem they clearly saw, they tried to fix the outcome they didn't like.
Yes dungeons might be firing faster, but I disagree that their solution addressed the issue as given in the quote you offered. Folks are now just dumping dungeons they don't want to run or pulling AFKs. So yes, you got the lowbie into "Spellplague Caverns", for example, faster maybe but then you have them alone and unsupported or you have them struggling to fight through the mobs the speedrunners blitzed past to get to the end. The RQ didn't make the game better. It just shifted the pain from waiting for some dungeons to fire over to bad experiences and conflict inside the dungeons. And reallydidn't address the issue and outcome they stated in the quote you offered.
There are so many other things they could have done to address the issues. An example could be they could give a character a couple NPCs to help their first time through the dungeon so they could enjoy it. Thus no waiting for the dungeon to fire. Outcome addressed in a different way.
They could have balanced the rewards to the dungeons length and difficulty thus addressing the issue they state. If I do Cloak Tower I get a small amount of RAD, run one of the harder dungeons I get more RAD. In other words address the issue as given in the quote you posted.
Allowing the 70+ Speed Runners to solo at this point is not returning to the old system. It is an option. Give them a reduced amount of RAD then for the right to speed lane it. Killing the RQ 100% without a plan for a better system would be returning to the old system.
They have said they felt the RQ was a success because dungeons are firing off faster, I wonder if they are collecting data on how many times the original party fails now and how many folks drop out or are kicked out now. Without those data points saying the dungeons start faster just somehow rings hollow to me as a success.
I know most of this post is my opinions and that I have offered them in other threads. But you asked why the disgree, this is it.
I get that you have taken this up as your personal cause but the problem is not that RQs are an "us vs them" thing, its that the design and implementation made it inevitable that it would be
RQs are now the primary means of grinding for RAD in the game and all players need AD
All players includes speed runners, alt farmers, low level explorers, those that prefer going slow, those that cannot communicate, those that have poor connections, those that can one shot everything at breakneck speeds and those that prefer to run past everything, and also bots, leechers and countless other types of players with countless other motivations, and nearly all of them are convinced that everyone else is doing it wrong
What's the chances of anyone randomly grouping up with two or four other people that want to run the way you want to run? Clearly, we have enough stories of the opposite situation occurring...
I'll bring back something from the RQ update thread from November:
@asterdahl So I understand the development team is afraid there will be too many categories available for random queues, which will lead to too much time required to run all the runs. There is a way to solve this issue.
If each category has multiple tiers, with all their own RAD bonusses, you could make it that running 1 T2 eDungeon gives you the bonus for T1 eDungeon and T2 eDungeon. Running the T3 eDungeon in the first places give the T1 eDungeon, T2 eDungeon and T3 eDungeon. Of course you can only get each bonus once.
That way, you will run the most difficult dungeon that you are able to run. No need to scale down by removing armor, since if you're 15k iLevel and you insist on running a T1 (eSoT for example), you will just get a lower RAD bonus rewards compared to what would be possible for you to achieve at max.
This will scale with future dungeons, where your current plan will not, and it doesn't have to affect your plan for Hero's Accord
As has been said before, once you add T9G and then later a tier 4 dungeon to ERQ, continuing to ignore the tiering that is already part of the game will make ERQs unplayable altogether, and you will have to implement something like this idea then, so just do it now
This will also eliminate the perceived value of the extremely unpopular leaver penalty, as people will be choosing the tier they want to run and are prepared for
If you still feel the need to punish people for ditching, make the RAD bonus eligibility kick in at the start of the random dungeon, so if someone leaves, they lose their chance at that RAD bonus for the day... this would probably be unfortunate if someone actually dc'd while really trying to run the dungeon, but the current system is unwieldy enough to make many more outliers victims and is easily abusable no matter how more complex you make it
Additionally, while you guys are planning on making the down-scaling work correctly for the leveling dungeons, I would strongly recommend against removing feats and powers from builds to make players more appropriate to dungeon level... Many level 70 builds are set up to only work with high level feats and powers, so you'd be forcing players to change everything about how they play the toon they spent a lot of time building and getting used to
I don't know how the current system for scaling works (other than it basically doesn't,) but it seems to me that all you'd have to do is add something like a 1% debuff to outgoing damage and healing and buff incoming damage by 1% per level (remembering to do the opposite for up-leveling players that go to the stronghold or Vault of the Nine) and let everyone test that for a while on preview
Obviously something would have to be done to buffing and debuffing feats and powers, but that could be addressed once you had some test data to look at, but hopefully some similar sort of dampening could happen there as well
PLEASE expedite these changes!
12b brought a lot of pain and complaints, and while your taking some time to respond to some feedback here is very appreciated, there has been a lot of anger boiling up since the official preview threads started back in August, and that is a very real problem that should not be ignored as it will take a toll at some point, so please do more than wait and see if people stop being angry and frustrated
These things are reasonable and immediately actionable, and should be implemented as soon as possible
I would suggest that instead of playing the blame game, everyone needs to just support specific suggestions of changes that need to be made to make the system work for everyone
Seriously... this constant complaining and bickering over RQs is over half of the posts in the forums and its been this way for way too long
Pick a solution and everyone rally behind it
If we can't all agree on one solution then just pick a date to count up all the agrees on each idea so we can provide some cohesive feedback to Cryptic like, you know, a community would?
Stop kicking the dead horse and just get the thing fixed already!
I like that idea of giving new players NPCs to work with. Giving players the option of waiting longer while the game queues them with other players at a similar level makes sense to me too.
Right. I mean why would players cooperate when it is much easier to be an HAMSTER?
Not only easier, also more lucrative.
I'm curious how is acting like a HAMSTER "more lucrative"?
A player acts like a cooperative party member, everyone gets to participate and people get the same amount of AD's at the end as a player would if they act like an inconsiderate self serving poser.
Aside from the fact of that kind of behavior being undeniably inconsiderate of other players, I can make the case for those players acting inconsiderately being less lucrative.
In a dungeon with a first time player all party members are awarded bonus AD's if the new player completes the content, of course that new player will be less experienced, slower and not equipped but most people usually make allowances for them because party members get bonus AD's.
But no bonus AD's for lower level, less experienced, slower players who aren't first timers and suddenly there's a problem putting up with players like that.
At least call it what it is instead of trying to pass it off as something more reasonable and acceptable.
More lucrative, because more runs, faster, equals more AD from alt armies. A common excuse given by the speed runners is "why should I have to wait for slowbie, lowbies to get my daily AD? Gimme back my private runs, HAMSTER it!"
@wintersmoke Why should anyone have to wait for slowbies or lowbies to get their AD's?
Well obviously no one has to wait for slower or lower level players, but I still personally believe it is the right and considerate thing to do in most cases.
I don't happen to believe my personal need to get astral diamonds is an excuse for running off and abandoning other people in the party, particularly if they appear to be slower or lower level characters.
But different strokes ~
@dafrca#4810 I concede that random dungeons probably weren’t the only thing they could have Implemented to solve the slow queue times, but it is what was implemented and unless and until that changes we have to deal with it… but as I said, I suspect going back to the private queue dungeon run for AD’s which was previously being abused, because people are unhappy with the current system, is something that is not likely to happen. More likely in my opinion is they will try something else all together and who’s to say if that something else, won’t wind up being worse than what we currently have?
Prior to the implementation of random queue dungeons players were allowed to solo specific dungeons repeatedly and although it wasn't specifically mentioned, it stands to reason if people repeatedly queued solo for the same content over and over again it would cause a queue "traffic jam" and people had to wait longer to be able to enter those queues. I say stands to reason because other than both Dev blogs mentioning something that indicates only some content was being utilized and the need to speed up the queue process most players usually did run what they thought was easier content solo – I know I did, and it doesn’t matter if there is one person or a party of persons running that content only so many instances for a particular content is available so with fewer people allowed to run solo that means more people would be actually able to participate in dungeon runs and the wait time is going to be less.
Heck yeah, I’d also like to be able to run solo through leveling dungeons to quickly get to the reward at the end, but just because that is my personal preference that doesn’t mean I can’t see the reason and necessity behind the random queue changes, or that I think someone should cater to my personal preferences – even if it does inconvenience everyone else.
@preechr#2215 I guess I should have specified “clear to me”, and again although solo dungeons were never specifically mentioned, the fact that there is only so much bandwith for specific content and that tends to limit how many instances can be run simultaneously. It takes just about the same juice for one person to run a popular private queue dungeon as it does 3 or more people to do the same thing so by making it so more people are able to queue at one time and introducing the random nature where the same content isn’t so often queued, now more people are able to run more dungeons (including the “popular” ones) than if several people decided to queue solo. At least that’s my understanding of it.
As for specific suggestions, I’ve attempted to do that too… I think there should be a multi-tiered dungeon/skirmish path with lower level dungeons being restricted to lower level players only, perhaps mid-range dungeons for pre-70 level characters and upper level dungeons for players with characters 70+. Lower level players are not allowed to queue into higher level content and higher level players are not allowed to queue into lower level content… New and low level players don’t have to so frequently worry about high level players running off and leaving mobs for them to have to deal with and higher level players don’t have to so often contend with slower and lower level players adding “minutes” to their obtaining ultimate goal.
@spunkmeier Not all of us were privy to the preview of random dungeons and even at that I’m not inclined to support those who do the preview content should be able to dictate game content for everybody else, make suggestions sure, but not be the final authority on what is to be implemented or not implemented for everyone playing Neverwinter. Based on what you’ve posted about the possible alternate suggestions: “Split 70’s from non-70’s” and “split epics”, that seems to be inline with my proposed suggestion of “tiered content” but now that you’ve mentioned it, that does seem like that would slow down the non-70 level dungeons and would again cause “longer queue times” for some content – people would have to wait longer to get into a dungeon queue which appears to be the opposite of what the developers were trying to accomplish when they made the change to random queue dungeons.
As for the “too many queues” relating to tiered skirmishes, I guess that implies extensive programming changes to make something like that happen, but it appears some changes are going to have to be made anyway so I hope they consider trying to do it as fairly as possible – instead of as quickly as possible.
I think your “split 70’s from non 70’s” idea should still be something worth considering (and it is also similar to my suggestion for tiered dungeons), so long as it wasn’t limited to 70’s -vs- everyone else. I suspect character level 65 players aren’t going to be any happier having to play with a level 18 character than a level 70 would be.
The game already tiers players by character level from one to thirty when the player has to choose their character “path”.
Players are again tiered from character level 31 to 60 when they can begin special content like Sharandar, the elemental campaigns and from character level 69 (who are just level 70’s in training) to 70+ for characters who can quest in the highest level areas.
Three tier dungeons from 18-30, from 31 to 68 and from 69 to 70 plus with the dungeons based on those available in level specific adventure zones.
Players soloing dungeons or only running the dungeons they wanted to run for RAD was never called abuse, so stop saying that
The point of mixing everyone together into random ques was because most people were private queuing for 2 EToS and 2 SoT every day (or some other repetitive pattern of their choice) to get their easy money and then going about doing whatever else they wanted to do, which was generally NOT trying to pug for random dungeons
If a leveling toon was trying to pug for some low level dungeon they might never get in, not because of bandwidth, but because nobody else was specifically selecting that obscure dungeon to pug
Players that were trying to pug for MSVA, FBI or MSP were also pretty much out of luck, especially if they didn’t know how to use LFG in PE or channels or didn’t make the cut for the groups that formed that way, so they would sit in que forever until maybe getting a group of similarly under qualified noobies for a long slow fail
The only abuse addressed by RQ was admitted to be inadvertent: it helped stop the bot armies that were infesting CT
Many players have invented methods to abuse RQs however, by AFKing or just sitting there and letting others do the work
Players that actually run the dungeon, unless they are harassing the other members of the party, are not abusing anything, whether they are trying to go fast or slow or whatever else
In my opinion, all they needed to do was to fix level scaling BEFORE they brought out RQs and respect the tier system that was already there for epics for REQ and it would have been an actual success, though they still would have had to sort out what the kick option has never worked as intended
So, in case it needs to be said clearly, excluding 70s from lower level content doesn’t fit the intent of the system and neither does tiering off the low levels
... and they won’t be rolling it back, either, so come up with some viable solutions or stand behind someone else’s, but PLEASE can we stop with the endless debate over which person’s preferred method of running RQs is the correct one?
You seem to think you have a better handle on how to play the game than the designers, developers and programmers - who in addition to producing the game with the planned prospect of being the most fair to the majority of players, also play the game.
Well, we're each entitled to our own opinion, I'm guessing you can guess what mine would be.
Well that doesn't take much. It's been shown that the designers, developers and programmers barely play the game (if at all).
I would LOVE to see them tackle tong with a min iLVL group and show us how it's done. Hell, i'll even spot them an extra 1K iLVL.
As tiresome as it may be to keep hearing it, the reason why people keep bringing up playstyle is because that's one of the main parts of the problem.
In the end it doesn't come down to levels. Keeping 60-70s separate from everyone else isn't going to solve anything anyway. Jackasses will always exist. Eventually we're all bound to be paired off with one or two jerks who think efficiency and skill is sprinting off to AFK by the portal while characters who don't have a sprint option or excessive movement stats deal with the mess left in their wake. While it can be merely annoying for other >60s, it can be deadly for <60s and a real turn off to the game for newer players - particularly if they're getting kicked for RQing a dungeon at their level that they're just trying to turn in while earning their AD for the day.
Maybe the only real solution in the end is for everyone else to stop tolerating selfish behavior and start kicking asocial players. That's what I'm going to do from now on - along with the excessive hoppers and blinking dcs. They're the ones I REALLY can't stand.
The real heart of the matter is that we need a different, better way to get AD. Other people have already posted a number of great ideas such as incorporating AD into open world quests as has already been done with the daily Underdark.
Answers
Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.
Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
> That is a problem with what the RQ forces. Would you mix Pro (name your sport) with recreational folks and expect it to be fun or smooth for anyone?
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> The bottom line is the RQ forces you to PUG and throws together players of significantly different skills/equipment. Why should players change their behavior just because the developers decided to force them into specific content that they don't want to do anyway.
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> No I wouldn't mix pros and armatures together in a contest and expect the content to run smoothly, but I would - and even in sports they do - have pros train with armatures to help them become stronger and faster and more capable.
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> Dungeons and skirmishes aren’t real battles like the River District or Chult they are in essence training sessions to teach players how to become better at what they do and hopefully learn how to work together as a team instead of a solo entity. At least that’s the way I see it… the unfortunate part is that so many people seem to think Neverwinter is all about the random queue being THE game as the only thing they appear to care about is the accumulation of more astral diamonds seems unfortunate to me.
>
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> Unfortunately, this only works if the pro;s are willing to stop and explain haw they are doing what they are doing, and why. That is hard to do when you are shouting at someone 500 yards behind you.
Training with pros doesn't make you stronger Here... it did at one time when bis weapons dropped from dungeons.
Training with pros here doesn't upgrade your weapons or armors or enchantments.... it just wastes time.
It's not a physical thing where you get stronger by lifting weights.... if you want to compare the two then the weaker people would be the spotters that are not even spotting the lifter...
A player acts like a cooperative party member, everyone gets to participate and people get the same amount of AD's at the end as a player would if they act like an inconsiderate self serving poser.
Aside from the fact of that kind of behavior being undeniably inconsiderate of other players, I can make the case for those players acting inconsiderately being less lucrative.
In a dungeon with a first time player all party members are awarded bonus AD's if the new player completes the content, of course that new player will be less experienced, slower and not equipped but most people usually make allowances for them because party members get bonus AD's.
But no bonus AD's for lower level, less experienced, slower players who aren't first timers and suddenly there's a problem putting up with players like that.
At least call it what it is instead of trying to pass it off as something more reasonable and acceptable.
Lower level or less experienced party members are able to often pick up better equipment, refining gems and of course the AD's at the end which gives them the means to purchase even better equipment, enchantments, companions and refining options.
Even without all of that lesser experienced party members playing with pros gives the less experienced players the benefit of a more knowledgeable players experience and even if that experience is only incidentally passed on, those techniques still makes some players better and more capable.
For instance the Spider King dungeon, no higher level player told any of the other party members about the short cuts players could take to avoid a couple of mobs, but by watching the higher level more experienced players take those short cuts we were able to learn them and now I and other players use those short cuts and pass them on to new party members.
In the Cavern of Karrundax my party learned that by riding a reasonably fast mount players could actually avoid many mob battles and just today in another dungeon that appears to be glitched, I learned if the final boss fails to materialize after defeating his lesser cronies the party can either die and reenter which will bring the boss out or apparently intentionally disconnecting and immediately reconnecting does the same thing.
So as I said I have to disagree that putting amateurs into a party with pros is a waste of time and doesn't make the less experienced players any stronger.
One thing I wanted to say regarding the thing that the high level players leave the newbies behind and are not able to experience the dungeon fight is, how can you not leave them behind or allow them to fight? I 'll speak from my own experiense, I have my main a 12.9k TR who will get even better gear soon and one shots anything in these dungeons, and a 10.3k HR - DC who do the same. When I 'm going into these low level dungeons with those characters everything I hit is one shoted or two shoted so how can I let the lower level players experiense the combat this dunegon has to offer? I will have to not hit almost anything, sit back and just watch the lower level players hit things and maybe throw a skill or two from time to time. The problem isn't only with the higher level players but with the random system, I mean you enter a dungeon that is just far too weak for your current level as a player so you can't expect yourself or the other players to have an exciting fight it is just a chore you do as a higher lvl / IL player for the AD at the end of it which is sad but it is the truth.
In this both the higher level player and the lower level players are right, one just wants to end this boring thing and the other wants to experience this new thing and the newbies get the shorter end of the stick here.
I won't lie I 'm also speed runing through these low level dungeons but if there is someone of lower level that will ask me to explain to him how the dungeon works I will certainly do so but still I 'm not sure how many people will do this and this certainly doesn't salvage the whole situation. This random dungeon system is not in a good state atm and not to mention the bot fest, I mean these kind of systems are a boter's wet dream... Anyways I hope some changes will be done to it for the better of the lower level players and the higher level ones.
Good to know (sarcasm alert).
You seem to think you have a better handle on how to play the game than the designers, developers and programmers - who in addition to producing the game with the planned prospect of being the most fair to the majority of players, also play the game.
Well, we're each entitled to our own opinion, I'm guessing you can guess what mine would be.
"Efficiency" doen't mean fast. It means with a minimum of time and effort. Efficiency also goes out the window when you have 2 other people in the instance with you. Then it becomes a cooperative effort.
Saying lower leveled players are a problem for entering dungeons designed specifically for them is asinine. A couple people mentioned scummy players. Well scum generally floats to the top. The idea that simply being at level 70 makes you some kind of pro is a joke. In most cases if you swapped a level 70's gear and effects with the newbie's, the newbie would be the one running the show instead.
As for learning things from repeat players, from what I've seen -aside from a few shortcuts- most of them are bad habits. I've lost track of the number of lower level players that go sprinting off trailing stacks of mobs after them because they think that's the way it's supposed to be done. With them at least you can always just hang back a bit and wait for them to get sandwiched so they get the hint.
Been said plenty of times already, but it's worth saying again. It was a nice idea to mix new players with repeat players, but it's unrealistic, and it obviously isn't working. It makes so much more sense to let 70s solo those dungeons, or pair lower level players with npcs, or just find another way for players to earn AD. I like the suggestions a few people have already posted.
That was one of the problems the random queue was designed to fix, higher level players repeatedly running the same dungeons over and over again making the dungeon queue times excessively long for everyone.
"...higher level players repeatedly running the same dungeons over and over again making the dungeon queue times excessively long for everyone."
Oh, that's right. Someone else mentioned that too, and I forgot about it.
Too bad newer/target-level players can't somehow rate their experience with higher level players to help determine how much AD those players will get. But that would probably only be abused in the end, too, I suppose.
I did like the suggestion that someone else posted about tying bonus AD to repeatable open world tasks and quests
I am offering my opinions here again (I have posted all of this before so I didn't think it needed to be posted again) because my disagree seems to have bothered you. But understand my disagree was because the RQ was not the only answer nor even a good answer for the issues they outlined in that quote nor for the issues outlined in their goal list they posted.
They clearly state that having a flat pay out was an issue, as you quoted, and that did not like the symptom of that issue. Why not just make the payout reflect the dungeon and thus folks could elect to do the fast easy dungeon for less RAD or do the longer harder one for more? Why keep the very thing in that quote offered as a problem and just address the symptom?
The quote you show does not say SOLOing was the issue. Rather it is they didn't like that people were only queueing for a small number of the dungeons. No where in that quote does it refer to soloing. They clearly state a problem (flat reward) and an outcome (low number of dungeons being queued for). So rather than fix the problem they clearly saw, they tried to fix the outcome they didn't like.
Yes dungeons might be firing faster, but I disagree that their solution addressed the issue as given in the quote you offered. Folks are now just dumping dungeons they don't want to run or pulling AFKs. So yes, you got the lowbie into "Spellplague Caverns", for example, faster maybe but then you have them alone and unsupported or you have them struggling to fight through the mobs the speedrunners blitzed past to get to the end. The RQ didn't make the game better. It just shifted the pain from waiting for some dungeons to fire over to bad experiences and conflict inside the dungeons. And reallydidn't address the issue and outcome they stated in the quote you offered.
There are so many other things they could have done to address the issues. An example could be they could give a character a couple NPCs to help their first time through the dungeon so they could enjoy it. Thus no waiting for the dungeon to fire. Outcome addressed in a different way.
They could have balanced the rewards to the dungeons length and difficulty thus addressing the issue they state. If I do Cloak Tower I get a small amount of RAD, run one of the harder dungeons I get more RAD. In other words address the issue as given in the quote you posted.
Allowing the 70+ Speed Runners to solo at this point is not returning to the old system. It is an option. Give them a reduced amount of RAD then for the right to speed lane it. Killing the RQ 100% without a plan for a better system would be returning to the old system.
They have said they felt the RQ was a success because dungeons are firing off faster, I wonder if they are collecting data on how many times the original party fails now and how many folks drop out or are kicked out now. Without those data points saying the dungeons start faster just somehow rings hollow to me as a success.
I know most of this post is my opinions and that I have offered them in other threads. But you asked why the disgree, this is it.
In fact, at no point in the discussion of why RQs were being introduced was soloing dungeons ever referenced as a reason
It seems that when you reference this discussion and even the introduction of RQs that it was all before you started playing... is that the case?
I've seen you posting on the end of the Official discussion thread, but did you read the first post? The goals are clearly described there...
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1234049/official-feedback-thread-random-queues/p1
I get that you have taken this up as your personal cause but the problem is not that RQs are an "us vs them" thing, its that the design and implementation made it inevitable that it would be
RQs are now the primary means of grinding for RAD in the game and all players need AD
All players includes speed runners, alt farmers, low level explorers, those that prefer going slow, those that cannot communicate, those that have poor connections, those that can one shot everything at breakneck speeds and those that prefer to run past everything, and also bots, leechers and countless other types of players with countless other motivations, and nearly all of them are convinced that everyone else is doing it wrong
What's the chances of anyone randomly grouping up with two or four other people that want to run the way you want to run? Clearly, we have enough stories of the opposite situation occurring...
I'll bring back something from the RQ update thread from November: I would suggest that instead of playing the blame game, everyone needs to just support specific suggestions of changes that need to be made to make the system work for everyone
Seriously... this constant complaining and bickering over RQs is over half of the posts in the forums and its been this way for way too long
Pick a solution and everyone rally behind it
If we can't all agree on one solution then just pick a date to count up all the agrees on each idea so we can provide some cohesive feedback to Cryptic like, you know, a community would?
Stop kicking the dead horse and just get the thing fixed already!
Giving players the option of waiting longer while the game queues them with other players at a similar level makes sense to me too.
Well obviously no one has to wait for slower or lower level players, but I still personally believe it is the right and considerate thing to do in most cases.
I don't happen to believe my personal need to get astral diamonds is an excuse for running off and abandoning other people in the party, particularly if they appear to be slower or lower level characters.
But different strokes ~
@dafrca#4810 I concede that random dungeons probably weren’t the only thing they could have Implemented to solve the slow queue times, but it is what was implemented and unless and until that changes we have to deal with it… but as I said, I suspect going back to the private queue dungeon run for AD’s which was previously being abused, because people are unhappy with the current system, is something that is not likely to happen. More likely in my opinion is they will try something else all together and who’s to say if that something else, won’t wind up being worse than what we currently have?
Prior to the implementation of random queue dungeons players were allowed to solo specific dungeons repeatedly and although it wasn't specifically mentioned, it stands to reason if people repeatedly queued solo for the same content over and over again it would cause a queue "traffic jam" and people had to wait longer to be able to enter those queues. I say stands to reason because other than both Dev blogs mentioning something that indicates only some content was being utilized and the need to speed up the queue process most players usually did run what they thought was easier content solo – I know I did, and it doesn’t matter if there is one person or a party of persons running that content only so many instances for a particular content is available so with fewer people allowed to run solo that means more people would be actually able to participate in dungeon runs and the wait time is going to be less.
Heck yeah, I’d also like to be able to run solo through leveling dungeons to quickly get to the reward at the end, but just because that is my personal preference that doesn’t mean I can’t see the reason and necessity behind the random queue changes, or that I think someone should cater to my personal preferences – even if it does inconvenience everyone else.
@preechr#2215 I guess I should have specified “clear to me”, and again although solo dungeons were never specifically mentioned, the fact that there is only so much bandwith for specific content and that tends to limit how many instances can be run simultaneously. It takes just about the same juice for one person to run a popular private queue dungeon as it does 3 or more people to do the same thing so by making it so more people are able to queue at one time and introducing the random nature where the same content isn’t so often queued, now more people are able to run more dungeons (including the “popular” ones) than if several people decided to queue solo. At least that’s my understanding of it.
As for specific suggestions, I’ve attempted to do that too… I think there should be a multi-tiered dungeon/skirmish path with lower level dungeons being restricted to lower level players only, perhaps mid-range dungeons for pre-70 level characters and upper level dungeons for players with characters 70+. Lower level players are not allowed to queue into higher level content and higher level players are not allowed to queue into lower level content… New and low level players don’t have to so frequently worry about high level players running off and leaving mobs for them to have to deal with and higher level players don’t have to so often contend with slower and lower level players adding “minutes” to their obtaining ultimate goal.
@spunkmeier Not all of us were privy to the preview of random dungeons and even at that I’m not inclined to support those who do the preview content should be able to dictate game content for everybody else, make suggestions sure, but not be the final authority on what is to be implemented or not implemented for everyone playing Neverwinter. Based on what you’ve posted about the possible alternate suggestions: “Split 70’s from non-70’s” and “split epics”, that seems to be inline with my proposed suggestion of “tiered content” but now that you’ve mentioned it, that does seem like that would slow down the non-70 level dungeons and would again cause “longer queue times” for some content – people would have to wait longer to get into a dungeon queue which appears to be the opposite of what the developers were trying to accomplish when they made the change to random queue dungeons.
As for the “too many queues” relating to tiered skirmishes, I guess that implies extensive programming changes to make something like that happen, but it appears some changes are going to have to be made anyway so I hope they consider trying to do it as fairly as possible – instead of as quickly as possible.
I think your “split 70’s from non 70’s” idea should still be something worth considering (and it is also similar to my suggestion for tiered dungeons), so long as it wasn’t limited to 70’s -vs- everyone else. I suspect character level 65 players aren’t going to be any happier having to play with a level 18 character than a level 70 would be.
The game already tiers players by character level from one to thirty when the player has to choose their character “path”.
Players are again tiered from character level 31 to 60 when they can begin special content like Sharandar, the elemental campaigns and from character level 69 (who are just level 70’s in training) to 70+ for characters who can quest in the highest level areas.
Three tier dungeons from 18-30, from 31 to 68 and from 69 to 70 plus with the dungeons based on those available in level specific adventure zones.
Players soloing dungeons or only running the dungeons they wanted to run for RAD was never called abuse, so stop saying that
The point of mixing everyone together into random ques was because most people were private queuing for 2 EToS and 2 SoT every day (or some other repetitive pattern of their choice) to get their easy money and then going about doing whatever else they wanted to do, which was generally NOT trying to pug for random dungeons
If a leveling toon was trying to pug for some low level dungeon they might never get in, not because of bandwidth, but because nobody else was specifically selecting that obscure dungeon to pug
Players that were trying to pug for MSVA, FBI or MSP were also pretty much out of luck, especially if they didn’t know how to use LFG in PE or channels or didn’t make the cut for the groups that formed that way, so they would sit in que forever until maybe getting a group of similarly under qualified noobies for a long slow fail
The only abuse addressed by RQ was admitted to be inadvertent: it helped stop the bot armies that were infesting CT
Many players have invented methods to abuse RQs however, by AFKing or just sitting there and letting others do the work
Players that actually run the dungeon, unless they are harassing the other members of the party, are not abusing anything, whether they are trying to go fast or slow or whatever else
In my opinion, all they needed to do was to fix level scaling BEFORE they brought out RQs and respect the tier system that was already there for epics for REQ and it would have been an actual success, though they still would have had to sort out what the kick option has never worked as intended
... and they won’t be rolling it back, either, so come up with some viable solutions or stand behind someone else’s, but PLEASE can we stop with the endless debate over which person’s preferred method of running RQs is the correct one?
It’s just boring
I would LOVE to see them tackle tong with a min iLVL group and show us how it's done. Hell, i'll even spot them an extra 1K iLVL.
In the end it doesn't come down to levels. Keeping 60-70s separate from everyone else isn't going to solve anything anyway. Jackasses will always exist. Eventually we're all bound to be paired off with one or two jerks who think efficiency and skill is sprinting off to AFK by the portal while characters who don't have a sprint option or excessive movement stats deal with the mess left in their wake. While it can be merely annoying for other >60s, it can be deadly for <60s and a real turn off to the game for newer players - particularly if they're getting kicked for RQing a dungeon at their level that they're just trying to turn in while earning their AD for the day.
Maybe the only real solution in the end is for everyone else to stop tolerating selfish behavior and start kicking asocial players. That's what I'm going to do from now on - along with the excessive hoppers and blinking dcs. They're the ones I REALLY can't stand.
Other people have already posted a number of great ideas such as incorporating AD into open world quests as has already been done with the daily Underdark.