What's the excuse for not fixing shadow of demise?

feanor70118 · December 2017

Just curious why undergeared TRs who aren't actually any good should be able to punch far above their class in pvp by being able to do massive damage just by pressing 1. Is this supposed to be a feature, is it a bug or do the devs actually not care at all about balancing pvp?

Because if they did, all they'd have to do is undo the change that made Shadow of Demise completely, ridiculously, senselessly overpowered in pvp.
It'd take about ten minutes.

demonmonger · December 2017

And then tr wouldn't be able to kill 3 classes.

Before you ask your question.

Ask this..

How many other classes have op moves in pvp.

trgluestickz · December 2017

feanor70118 said:
Just curious why undergeared TRs who aren't actually any good should be able to punch far above their class in pvp by being able to do massive damage just by pressing 1. Is this supposed to be a feature, is it a bug or do the devs actually not care at all about balancing pvp?

Because if they did, all they'd have to do is undo the change that made Shadow of Demise completely, ridiculously, senselessly overpowered in pvp.
It'd take about ten minutes.

I don't think there is a good argurment for NOT fixing shadow of demise in PVP but there is a decent argument for why a SOD fix should be postponed until the TR class gets its rework. As bad as SOD is, nerfing it now without also updating the TR class would likely harm PVP even more than just leaving SOD as is for now.

Shadow of demise is currently too strong in PVP. However, it is also acting as the life support for the TR class's otherwise weak damage output in PVP. If you compare TR at wills, encounter powers, and even their dailies now with the ones from other classes, you will quickly notice that most other classes can kill using these attacks much easier, faster, and more reliably than a TR could if they attempted the same. Many targets other classes can kill with a combo of their powers TRs either can't kill at all without the help of SOD or they take significantly longer to do so.

In short, if you toned down SOD in PVP without also buffing the TR class's other sources of damage, TRs would be close to the bottom of the PVP ladder in terms of damage in PVP. This would cause some TRs to either quit NW or abandon their class and gear up a stronger one. Those that remain will either be stuck underpreforming or they will try to find other likely very trollish, boring, and poorly received ways to try to keep up in PVP. Such as overstacking defensive stats to the point of being immortal or focusing even more on CCs than TRs did before the CC diminishing returns system got implemented.

finalfantasyac7 · February 2018

I know this thread is old but going to post anyway.
You say sod is too strong yet it doesn't work when a player using shadowclad and go invis. It can be countered by the wheel artifact temp hp. It can be countered by lion mount. It can be ignored when player is too far away from tr. So if you can run really fast... run 30 feets away from tr and sod will do 0 damage.

- Fyi-
Gf's 1 hit kill rotation is op. Their prones and stuns are op.
Pally's temp hp and reflect damage is op.

(lol)

feanor70118 · February 2018

Here's why the predictable TR arguments that shadow of demise can be countered are ridiculous:
1) not every class/build has a reason to wear a shadowclad enchantment
2) Tried using wheel/earth to counter it about 30 seconds ago. No effect.
3) Keeping one's distance from a TR is a silly argument when pvp matches are about controlling nodes and TRs have multiple gap-closing abilities.
4) Countering it with stealth is (so far as I know - I haven't looked at my TRs' power sheets since the beginning of mod 6) an exploit, not a tactic. It should be written out of the game.
5) TR damage is just fine without the overbuff to SOD. It's not my fault most TRs have been relying on abusing power combinations like cloud of dust/courage breaker and the 1-button faceroll bloodbath +SOD kill and don't actually know how to play without them. Back before mod 5 made the class absurdly overpowered (as a result of which, I stopped playing it) TRs actually had to know what they were doing.

finalfantasyac7 · February 2018

feanor70118 said:
Here's why the predictable TR arguments that shadow of demise can be countered are ridiculous:
1) not every class/build has a reason to wear a shadowclad enchantment
2) Tried using wheel/earth to counter it about 30 seconds ago. No effect.
3) Keeping one's distance from a TR is a silly argument when pvp matches are about controlling nodes and TRs have multiple gap-closing abilities.
4) Countering it with stealth is (so far as I know - I haven't looked at my TRs' power sheets since the beginning of mod 6) an exploit, not a tactic. It should be written out of the game.
5) TR damage is just fine without the overbuff to SOD. It's not my fault most TRs have been relying on abusing power combinations like cloud of dust/courage breaker and the 1-button faceroll bloodbath +SOD kill and don't actually know how to play without them. Back before mod 5 made the class absurdly overpowered (as a result of which, I stopped playing it) TRs actually had to know what they were doing.

Sod wont get a fixed cuz its not broken. it's how it supposed to work. Actually it is broken and by that i mean when fighting 2 tr's you only get 1 sod. Mod 13 will be fixed. Expect double sod when fighting 2 tr's.
Our shadowborn will be nerfed tho. Instead of double power when stealthed we get 25% damage boost.
There are many ways to counter sod. If you can't figure that out then you're just a bad player

pitmonster · March 2018

The problem with this whole "we need to fix X" is yet again PVP HAMSTER up PVE. The TR is meant to be a 1:1 powerhouse, is meant to stealth away and not get hit, etc. In a party or solo in PVE there is nothing wrong with it. "Fixing" it to fit PVP just screws it all up for no good reasons at all.

There are plenty of PVP only games out there that are really good at PVP. Trying to mix these two seldom works out.

finalfantasyac7 · March 2018

macjae said:
Somehow, module 13 just made the problems with SoD in PvP worse. Which means it's not even worth playing until they actually get off their asses and fix it. And they apparently made other aspects of the TR class overperfom as well.

There's more about the TR class that needs fixing than SoD, but it would be a good start. Their survivability needs to be toned down while their basic damage output needs to be a bit higher. They need to replace the entire free auto-crit from stealth thing with something else, and remove stupid nonsense procs that ignore defenses. The really puzzling part was how all this came about when they finally fixed some aspects of the old broken piercing damage on TRs and HRs, only to introduce something new and worse at the same time. Because TRs should apparently be godmode in PvP just because.

I recommend you to stop playing pvp. Just play pve

Or make a tr. Problem solved. There is nothing broken on tr. They are just good at 1v1. You wont see a tr at 2v1 killing you unless you are low geared/bad player.

therealprotex · March 2018

macjae said:
Somehow, module 13 just made the problems with SoD in PvP worse. Which means it's not even worth playing until they actually get off their asses and fix it. And they apparently made other aspects of the TR class overperfom as well.

There's more about the TR class that needs fixing than SoD, but it would be a good start. Their survivability needs to be toned down while their basic damage output needs to be a bit higher. They need to replace the entire free auto-crit from stealth thing with something else, and remove stupid nonsense procs that ignore defenses. The really puzzling part was how all this came about when they finally fixed some aspects of the old broken piercing damage on TRs and HRs, only to introduce something new and worse at the same time. Because TRs should apparently be godmode in PvP just because.

Seriously, nothing, absolutely n-o-t-h-i-n-g, should be "fixed" for PvP reasons only. PvP was, is and always will be unbalanced, unless Cryptic separates PvE from PvP completly. "Fixing" a class' feature for a PvP reason only will guarantee problems for this class in PvE.

unthoughtknown · March 2018

macjae said:

therealprotex said:
Seriously, nothing, absolutely n-o-t-h-i-n-g, should be "fixed" for PvP reasons only. PvP was, is and always will be unbalanced, unless Cryptic separates PvE from PvP completly. "Fixing" a class' feature for a PvP reason only will guarantee problems for this class in PvE.
Perhaps you should just dial down your obvious PvP hatred, and act a little more politely. Or perhaps read the entire thread before responding.

Or dial down the years of TR hatred.

trgluestickz · March 2018

feanor70118 said:
Here's why the predictable TR arguments that shadow of demise can be countered are ridiculous:
1) not every class/build has a reason to wear a shadowclad enchantment
2) Tried using wheel/earth to counter it about 30 seconds ago. No effect.
3) Keeping one's distance from a TR is a silly argument when pvp matches are about controlling nodes and TRs have multiple gap-closing abilities.
4) Countering it with stealth is (so far as I know - I haven't looked at my TRs' power sheets since the beginning of mod 6) an exploit, not a tactic. It should be written out of the game.
5) TR damage is just fine without the overbuff to SOD. It's not my fault most TRs have been relying on abusing power combinations like cloud of dust/courage breaker and the 1-button faceroll bloodbath +SOD kill and don't actually know how to play without them. Back before mod 5 made the class absurdly overpowered (as a result of which, I stopped playing it) TRs actually had to know what they were doing.

I agree that listing the ways SOD can be avoided is grasping at straws and a terrible argument.

However, I disagree with your take on TR dps output. TR dps with SOD out of the picture is not "fine".

Baring a couple very short lived switches to saboteur, I played as a scoundrel TR since module 8 in PVP. I also rarely used SE and only just converted to a SOD build in module 12.5. My TR is also nearly maxed out gearwise. I am not by any stretch of the imagination used to playing easy peasy one shot builds and I can attest to the fact that our low overall dps isn't just a skill issue.

I was able to kill but I was not anywhere near as efficient at it as most other classes. I also was not able to kill many tankyer targets without help and the ones I could kill often took too long for it to be worth bothering with in matches, usually my team would need me to rotate to a different location before I got the kill.

The newer dps gear in PVP has made it easier to kill without SOD than it used to be but TRs with SOD removed still aren't in a good place damagewise.

To give you an idea of how scoundrel dps compares to the dps of other TR types, until recently, scoundrel dps was only slightly behind saboteur dps in PVP. The new CC diminishing returns system and minor saboteur adjustments have left scoundrel much further behind since. Executioner doesn't have great overall dps either but nobody wants it for that anyway, it was used for SE builds in the past and now its being used for SOD builds.

trgluestickz · March 2018

I have seen a few PVE players on this thread saying to only balance for PVE instead of worrying about PVP. As it turns out, the solution to both PVE and PVP TR dps issues is a mutually beneficial one. The same low overall DPS afflicting PVP TRs is also why PVE TRs are close to the bottom of the DPS latter. It also makes the argument for buffing TR overall dps in exchange for losing things like broken SOD and perma CB all the stronger. Raising the overall dps output of TRs would buff both PVE and PVP TR dps output at the same time without the giant balance risks that piercing damage always comes with.

As for what I mean when I say buff our overall damage, I mean things that either directly or indirectly raise our encounter power and at will power damage. Some of the ways this could be accomplished include: feat buffs, direct power buffs, mechanic reworks, weapon damage increases, and reducing the amount of time it takes for TRs to reach their peak dps output.

feanor70118 · March 2018

pitmonster#5684 said:
The problem with this whole "we need to fix X" is yet again PVP HAMSTER up PVE. The TR is meant to be a 1:1 powerhouse, is meant to stealth away and not get hit, etc. In a party or solo in PVE there is nothing wrong with it. "Fixing" it to fit PVP just screws it all up for no good reasons at all.

There are plenty of PVP only games out there that are really good at PVP. Trying to mix these two seldom works out.

Tired old argument, never been true. "This power is half as effective in pvp."

pitmonster · March 2018

feanor70118 said:

pitmonster#5684 said:
The problem with this whole "we need to fix X" is yet again PVP HAMSTER up PVE. The TR is meant to be a 1:1 powerhouse, is meant to stealth away and not get hit, etc. In a party or solo in PVE there is nothing wrong with it. "Fixing" it to fit PVP just screws it all up for no good reasons at all.

There are plenty of PVP only games out there that are really good at PVP. Trying to mix these two seldom works out.
Tired old argument, never been true. "This power is half as effective in pvp."

In what part of my statement do I mention any powers? In general mixing PVP with a PVE always messes up both. For the Devs in PVP its all about balance but on PVE it is about enjoyment of play regardless of balance.

What's the excuse for not fixing shadow of demise?

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