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Lost City of Omu Preview Patch Notes: NW.95.20180212a.3 (Update 2018-02-23)

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  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    It should not be hard to playtest a CW on dummies on Live and then repeat the exercise on Test. Or ask a knowledgeable CW player to do it and see how the parses behave.

    Another issue is that there is a LOT of room to fail upwards with CW dps. Most of the complaints here is that CWs are actually getting _lower_ dps, but the CW already is so low in dps that it needs a solid overall dps boost.

    So there is really no reason to not give CWs a good compensation for the loss of Lightening and then some extra. No reason for the devs to hold back on this really, it is very unlikely they will manage to push the CW dps past the GWF dps ;)
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    it's not about the 30% reduction, its the reason behind it, not to mention they stated nerfing dc to make other classes more approchable, you get what this means? in order to replace a dc in a content, u need some healing, some protection and some reliable buffs to do this, so where is this for the CW? why would u wanna increase MoF dps and nerf SS, makes no sense, as looking at it no matter how u want to, MoF was built to support, not to dps, now its likely to have more dps than SS, so where does this leave SS when it cant act as support? in the bin, we can argue all day but i dont see how SS will be better than MoF in mod13 when it procs less and smolder is getting an increase. we dont have any reliable buff, protection or healing mechanics. dont get me started on Chaos magic, regardless how u see it, this is still a chance, nexus is pretty useless for end game runs, growth? it only heals, doesn't ad any DR or protection. oh, and its only a chance, fury? we all know why this procs more than the others. This is my complain, its not just the nerf, its the fact they are getting the idea wrong and it makes 0 sense. Not to mention you have other classes like gwf that have high armor, they have a feat that makes that armor increase their dps, this is defense which u can get from any piece or armor. then they can go berserk and swing really fast and their movement, they can take alot of damage and still stay unphased, and to add to all that, they have alot of damage, if you think such class isn't broken, u are tripping, not gnna comment on gf anymore cos it makes 0 sense at this point how a guardian can be the main dps class in a game, paladins are normally superior form of guardians but they hit alot less, yes, yet another thing that makes no sense, trs hit slower than armor classes, how does that even make sense? Hr? no comment. If u've played any MMO with a sorcerer u should know how hard they hit, they aint a sub par class like the cw in neverwinter, classes with less armor should have higher damage to compensate or other functions as support. again as things stand, cw cant replace DO come mod13.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • valnoledvalnoled Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    MoF was built to support, not to dps

    Can't agree on that. That's logic on the "Control wizards were designed to control, not to dps. It is stated in the class name" level. Party roles should not be entitled to a paragon path.
    I personally love MoF paragon and would vote for ability to dps in both paths. MoF mechanic never worked correct, therefore it is hard to say how it meant to be and how M13 will affect outcome damage. I still have doubts about efficiency of Smolder damage - it ticks only once per second with interruptions of refreshing, against 0.5 icd of SS with multiprocs... And I guess SS will still hit harder and more often than Smolder can. We'll see how it'll work.
    I suggest to focus not on MoF/SS differences and wild guesses about initial roles, but on Lightning enchantment and paragon feature as SS dependency. It shows that the class itself is in a deep mechanic crisis. It shows that CW encounters, and dailies are relatively weak and low in damage.

    And I agree with you on Chaos Magic... too unpredictable and almost useless. Nexus is indeed irrelevant with end-game toons... The other - healing - is almost irrelevant.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User

    @pterias you realize that your Kessel run on preview was half a minute faster then on live with a 6% higher average DPS. I can't see a nerf there, sorry.
    Concerning your single target, why don't you try the new single target MoF Oppressor with Shatterstrike. Would be interresting to see how this compares to the current live single target setup.

    *sigh* Like I already told someone on another thread, that live run was the first time I'd run Kessel's in like two years so I was smoother with it the second time, not to mention I spent time picking up drops on live because I'm not rich, but didn't bother on preview. The time differences are utterly irrelevant. As for the damage differences, the Damage Per Second is unreliable because I was playing more defensively the first time (live) and spent more time dodging and trying to not die. The total damage during the run is what counts, and Storm Spell makes up a clearly smaller proportion of total damage done, so yeah, it's a nerf.

    As for trying the new meta, sure why not? It might be pretty good for bosses, but what about the rest of the time? I mostly play solo and that means AoE.
    artifleur said:

    I'm also doubtful about CW changes reducing their damage. So far, it looks like most people only read "storm spell damage is reduced by 30%" and didn't read or try anything else.



    @pterias thank you for gathering this data. What I can gather from it that SS hits harder but less often, its overall damage seems to be unchanged. On the other hand icy terrain got a big boost since it can hit frozen targets. I'd say your overall DPS was somewhat higher on preview but it's hard to say since durations aren't really reliable, sample sizes are different and several skills changed at the same time.



    As @demolitioninc#2453 pointed out there may be new options available for single target damage where the fix to icy terrain won't change anything.

    For anyone only reading "-30%", they're not seeing the whole picture, but are still right by accident. SS is hitting harder, certainly with a high crit/severity build, but it's not hitting nearly hard enough to make up for the loss of nearly 1/3rd of the procs. That's not even touching on the idea Storm Spell was suppose to be getting an overall buff. That's from the mouth of the devs themselves. They intended on overall buffing SS (at least for mid-high IL CWs), but apparently don't/didn't realize that it's actually being nerfed. That's what we're trying to get across to them, and that's why them not acknowledging it is so frustrating.

    And like I said above, the DPS, especially on that Kessel's run, is misleading. If you guys are really are hung up on the DPS column though, take a look at the Out of Supplies run that I was much more fluent with. Dramatic loss on DPS, even though I felt like I was more focused and on the ball the second time, enemies just were not melting as fast.
  • nooneatzanooneatza Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    Another TR bug that i found ! Do your best you programming wizards:
    The smoke bomb only does one tick of damage something like: poof, that's it folks !
    Can be replicated 100% of the time at the training dummies in dread ring and trade of blades, as far as for real combat, i tested it in Epic shores of Tuern, seems to be completely random, sometimes it deals all the ticks, sometimes just one.
    The issue is present regardless of gear equipped / paragon / feats / weapon / weapon enchantment
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    @valnoled you do realise when u go mof all the changes u get inclusing twisting immolation is all meant for party? only a few such as CC is meant for personally dps, swath, combustive, they are both meant for support, thou with the changes they've made till now its become viable as dps but all those features debuff the enemies. including the one from thaum that spreads smolder, are both meant to work with combustive and swath, smolder alone doesn't do that much damage on live as to consider it viable for dps, now combustive and swath are a different thing as the debuff is high enough to consider it a dps option but doesn't change the fact that its party-wide debuffs. unlike spell storm thats only focused on dps with no buffs nor debuffs.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User

    who new the cw community was such a whiney group? anyone got cheese for them?

    Be happy for 'em. They do quality testing! Even for different classes.

    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • valnoledvalnoled Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    lardeson said:

    @valnoled you do realise when u go mof all the changes u get inclusing twisting immolation is all meant for party?

    I do realize that MoF have more options... And I know several MoF CW who used Critical Conflagration, cause they did not want to buff party, to stay behind in damage. There are a lot of synergies between classes. Following your logic (that I perceive as flawed one) SW, HR are buffers, cause they have several powers for party buff. And once again - CW has a lot of CC powers... that makes the class Crowd control specialist ONLY... by your logic.
    If a class or paragon path have certain features that benefit whole party, that does not and should not mean limitation of party role for the character. Especially in 5-chars-in-party game, with no room for an extra semi-supporter.

    Do you realize, that your position about comparison SS and MoF is kinda similar to some GWF or other DPS classes opinion about CW? "You have several powers, your class is meant to be of certain role, forget about dps".
    Post edited by valnoled on
  • ravnazrael1ravnazrael1 Member Posts: 36 Arc User

    As @pterias has said, we're not concerned with the spellstorm damage being the same or slightly higher or lower. It's the loss of the weapon procs and stormspell procs that the spellstorm being able to crit WAS supposed to offset. IT IS NOT. WE ARE SUFFERING A REDUCTION IN DPS OVERALL.

    This is the part of the whole m13 changes I really do not understand. In Mod 12 ( i think) they made weapon enchants DOT's base of power, which was a dps boost in general, now they are removing or limiting enchantment procs for EVERYONE... So basically the devs want to force all dps classes to use one enchantment? It just doesnt make any sense or I dont understand the change they are making.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    As @pterias has said, we're not concerned with the spellstorm damage being the same or slightly higher or lower. It's the loss of the weapon procs and stormspell procs that the spellstorm being able to crit WAS supposed to offset. IT IS NOT. WE ARE SUFFERING A REDUCTION IN DPS OVERALL.

    This is the part of the whole m13 changes I really do not understand. In Mod 12 ( i think) they made weapon enchants DOT's base of power, which was a dps boost in general, now they are removing or limiting enchantment procs for EVERYONE... So basically the devs want to force all dps classes to use one enchantment? It just doesnt make any sense or I dont understand the change they are making.
    Before it was vorpal, now it's fey. It's kinda funny, tbh.
  • termik2termik2 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    • Stronghold Vouchers from the Underdark Campaign no longer incorrectly state that they can give Astral Diamond vouchers.
    back pls tiamat weekly chest Astral Diamond vouchers reward.
  • modlesiemodlesie Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    And this is result of your work Cryptic:




    And this isn't single case of player leaving CW. Good job, keep going.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    @valnoled sorry i cant agree with u, Sw where forced to become healers/buffers anyway, Hr can actually do some buffs if they decide, i know a few, the reason they go dps is cos their dps is broken at this point. Ofc MoF has Options, my point is the fact that between the 2 paragons, SS is dps focused cos u have no party buffs, while MoF is more party focused, as far as i know, its not just encounters, its the fact u can spread smolder and make it work as a debuff instead of damage, thats the main purpose of smolder right now, even the base damage for MoF is lower than SS, i believe that was their intention, b4 they implemented the soft cap for debuffs, almost all Mofs where debuffers, or u gnna say this is flawed too, why would a class like gf be a buffer? cos when they go to tactician u have a lot of ap going out and u actually have some good party buffs with itf alone and cw for those that use it, does this mean swordmaster cant dps? no, actually all gf dps are swordmasters, this depends on the capstone u chose to play or not. Now without the soft cap for debuffs, its unlikely u would see a dps MoF, it was so much debuffs coming in that they decided to go hybrid, myself included, yes, right now u can dps with MoF but why did u think this wasn't a thing b4 recent? cos smolder was so slow to stack that adds would die b4 u can even stack them or try to proc rimefire, so it wasn't viable, now with the softcap u literally have combustive giving about 20% dps from the 24% debuff on adds and with less buffs that actually 24% for the whole party, or u gnna tell me aura of courage is not why everyone takes OP into dungeons? well thats how i see it, if their intention was to make MoF a dps, they'd have just increased the base damage, make smolder do some damage and stack faster and those debuffs would actually be direct buffs u get from smolder, debuffs and buffs are not the same, buffs>debuffs, if u are hitting the softcap the value of the debuff decreases. this is another reason SS was better than MoF b4 the soft cap. You cant say something is flawed without actually finding informations. Sw are not buffers? what are they? they aint supposed to be buffers, warlocks always hit hard, the severe nerfs they got is what forced 90% of them to become buffers/healers. so my logic isn't flawed, u can heal and buff with renegade, and mof adds debuffs to this, so regardless what the role is right now, this makes it more specced to support than dps. and crit conflagration can never be better than swath or combustive. since there's a soft cap for crit severity, literally it covers less than 10% of ur damage and when using dread or vorpal thats even less. And i assume u did not asimilate the first comment? the devs are trying to make the 2 dcs meta unviable, allowing other classes to be part of that 5 man party, now try run a tong with 1 dc and other class, it may go well if u are all end game. now for non end game, the lack of 2 dcs atm mod12.b is a pain in the asz, u notice this on several occasions and sometimes makes ras nsi imposible, cos ac is only giving u either AA or HG, which or normally need 2 dcs to do both, and if u have a mid-support like u say its not gnna help much, its a whipe, i've been in this runs, thats why i commmented that, no one is saying cw should be support either, this shows u did not asimilate mi comment, SS is more dps focused, u can see this from the lack of any party debuffs/buffs, its only focused on the CW dps, while MoF is focused on party, regardless being is support or hybrid or dps, combustive or swath are better than CC, which makes this even more understandable. What i am trying to say is, if u want to drop the 2 dcs meta, u have to give classes that have support possiblity some protection mechanics, SW dont have COP unless they spec to hellbringer if i recall, and COP is one of the major buffs SWs have, its the same with CW.
    Post edited by lardeson on
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • valnoledvalnoled Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    @lardeson my gosh you are so far from lazy to write that amount of text.
    I see your point. You're right - you're describing the problem of a choice illusion in Neverwinter online. End-game content forces players to choose BIS options which are pitifully narrow. So despite the the fact of existence of numerous companions, gear, powers - everyone is limited by number of must have artifacts, pets and builds... That's the reality. And we are all hostages of that system and approach.
    And I personally think that is awesome that MoF could be dps after smolder improving. I like MoF better than SS. I wanna hit mobs hard, comparably to SS (we are all wizards after all). I fail to see why you keep insisting my MoF must be limited. Instead of requesting SS improvements.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    pterias said:

    Nope, not letting this get lost in the old, locked thread. Your internal estimates on the Storm Spell changes are WRONG!

    ---

    Well, if the devs had had the decency to talk to the people that are screaming over this, they might have realized their estimates are completely hamstered. I thought the same thing they did until I actually tested it and found it was much worse. The proc rate has dropped dramatically, and even having high crit/severity doesn't make up for it. Everyone is assuming the SS offhand feature is what's causing the drop, but it's not! I'm not even using that (because I didn't realize it was bugged in our favor), and my proc rate is plummeting anyway.

    [NOTE: First two / four images removed - see original author's post above]

    Single target setup (CoI(Tab), RoE, Dis, CS) in the Cold Run "Out of Supplies" weekly:
    Live:
    ♪ removed see above

    Preview:
    ♪ removed see above

    Equaling a proc rate drop of 31%, overall SS damage drop of 12%. (I know the sample size on this one is pretty small, but it's perfectly in line with the other results)

    But please, do tell me more about how I'm not getting nerfed.

    @terramak @asterdahl @balanced#2849

    Still while I can agree that Storm Spell was a bit overpowered, I do think they took it just a little bit too far - especially as other have noticed a Wizard is Above Average to Good at best in DPS; contrast changes with Great Weapon Fighter or Warlocks in MOD 13.

    Now to clarify I'm not putting GWF and Warlocks in the same damage category; simply that in MOD 13 their the only two that have powers that can MULTI-PROC Weapons Enchants. GWF many suspect may have had one of it's primary powers simply overlooked; while the Warlock for Mod 13 was specifically designed to MULTI-PROC. With Warlock at least the explanation was to trigger's FEAT as it should. So Warlocks at least had a few powers BUFFED in addition to fixes many classes got that saw corrections to PROC weapon's enchants that never use to or allow for critical hit's with other powers depending upon the class.

    I'd rather they left the damage alone of Storm Spell, even if they simply reduced it to PROC's on 25% of Critical Hits a little less! Many class powers can give up to a 20% buff in different area's which is certainly fine. Still the fact a few new abilities can now CRITICAL is NICE for sure; but should have likely always been the case.

    Still I am far more concerned not so much about the few powerful Class Power's all classes have 1-2; but the far GREATER # of 'almost' entirely worthless Class Powers every class has 1 (many have 2-3) except perhaps Cleric. Every Class has them and it's not always about damage - sometimes it's just the wrong type or extremely low returns regardless of build.

    Wizard's Worthless Class Powers:
    ▪ Arcane Presence: Why buff Chill/Cold (have Chilling Presence do we need 2.0?) does nothing for Arcane/Lighting?
    ╘ Should extend Arcane stacks damage up from 3% per stack to 0.5%-0.75% per level, or max 3% to 5/6% per stack.
    ╘ Yet should remove the Cold Damage boost - Perhaps add part of it to Frost Wave.
    ╘ Perhaps then more Arcane Wizard's would also consider it for the slight speed boost to Arcane powers.
    ▪ Frost Wave: Activate Daily-immobilze foes within 30' for 1s (2s if facing away out to 8s) out to 4s.
    ╘ Should add in Cold based damage boost (Esp. if taken out of Arcane Presence buff's 134%) to offer 50-75% for 4-8s.

    Hunter Ranger's Worthless Class Powers:
    ▪ Pathfinder-Battlehoned: +100 regeneration per level out to +400 max.
    ╘ Updated to buff % of existing regeneration by 5% per level out to 20%. With 2000 still be 400 yet scales with you. :)
    ▪ Pathfinder-Cruel Recovery: Dealing critical damage gain 1% HP for 4 seconds out to 16s as Temp HP? Honesty 1%?
    ╘ Updated to buff 5% temp HP and 4 seconds per level or 20% and 16s max.
    ▪ Crushing Roots: Weak Roots daze for .125 sec & Strong Roots daze for .25 sec?
    ╘ Update to also enchance Root Encounter, At-Will damage by 2.5% per level or (10% max) they are crushing aren't they?

    Oh my goodness this is but a few of the few examples many classes that should be BUFFED!
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • krzrsmskrzrsms Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    In the CW debate we seem to be getting lost a lot in between those talking about how the changes actually exist on preview versus those talking about how it "seems they should be". Theres no need for speculation here, its easy enough to head to preview on a character you're familiar with to look at the damage first hand.

    ..and the answer is? Oh its a cut in damage all right, your getting reports from groups of people who have played this class for years now. Its not like we cant tell the difference between more and less damage. As far as single target damage. Lol. We comparitively suck at single target damage, and no little tweak is going to change that, and unsurprisingly an overall group of nerfs has not increased that. Sure we can nudge it around a bit, but there is no magic bullet here.

    I ran solo in Kessel's in live and preview:
    Freshly copied character onto preview, using the same powers and eq:
    DPS in k on ACT
    preview live
    183 245
    212 230
    216 249
    208 296
    196 247

    Not using offhand SS feature, don't even have it enabled on my weapon. The DPS on those runs was fairly consistant resepctively. The 183 on preview is included for completeness. Id say that may be slightly reduced due to getting used to running with the increased recovery times (see below). The 296 on live, was just hitting a good groove with nice timing on stuff.

    Side notes of importance.. yea we hit decently hard, but far less often, which is playing to our weaker side. A piece of lightning enchants that I will miss from this bone headed change to enchants is a nerf to its recovery reduction. It hits less often and with that there is far less reduction in recovery time. So its back to mandatory spell twisting for a decent casting speed. (effectively another nerf as that has to be traded for other feats)

    With that.. its BORING. Its always been nice to play a class that nearly always has something to do besides mashing the at-will button. Running your encounter powers in a quick cycle and seeing the numbers fly as a consequence has always been one of the exciting parts of playing a CW, beyond any other class. Now the numbers flow slowly, more like an HR, and one of the best ways of reducing recovery times has been kicked in the gut.

    Oh .. yea, buried by the rest of this, lets not forget the nerf to ROE. Just another bit of icing on our manure cake.

    Can we compensate? Sure a bit. But each thing we do to compensate comes at a cost. Each of these nerfs has to be worked with, and we have not been giving anything near equivalent in trade (as was promised by the devs). At best with optimizing enchants and feats we will reduce the DPS reduction.

    Its still a reduction. ..and one that no-one asked for.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    @strathkin

    SW will still comfortably be the worst damage dealer in mod 13, if you'd play that class at endgame level you'd know why those tweaks change little if anything (the specific, major issues were left unaddressed) in regards of damage potential relative to all other strikers.

    Changes have already been tested by the best warlocks and general consensus is we'll still be bottom dps, this holds true especially with legit setups, no T9G/CoDG BS dps bug (with which SW can still lose to the rest, that speaks volumes as of what the state of that class is)

    Considering devs may listen/do changes based on comments like the one you did (SW > CW) which is wrong as per the state of both classes, please be mindful with what you post, getting nerfed yet again despite being the worst damage dealer would be horrible.

    I invite you to run your SW (if you have one at all) and compare the amount of limitations that class has compared to other strikers so you can see CW isn't in the spot you think it is at all. Perhaps once you see SW has by far the worst dps Class Features and the worst bonus damage paragon feats of any striker you may change your mind (compare SW's "best" with those of other strikers)
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • zanaspus1zanaspus1 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    At the risk of being flamed. Back in my day, we played, had fun together, and no non-statisticians felt the need to do the math.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    zanaspus1 said:

    At the risk of being flamed. Back in my day, we played, had fun together, and no non-statisticians felt the need to do the math.

    Not here to flame you, but it bears mentioning that, back in the day as it were, games like this didn't come with baked-in damage meters that made it extremely clear how well or how poorly you were performing.

    Players also tend to like to feel that they are "winning" at something, and knowing that your chosen class is subpar for its primary role can be a bit depressing. Thus all of the statistics flying around in the hopes of achieving better overall balance so that players of various classes feel that they are contributing more and having more fun.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    strathkin said:

    pterias said:

    Nope, not letting this get lost in the old, locked thread. Your internal estimates on the Storm Spell changes are WRONG!

    ---

    Well, if the devs had had the decency to talk to the people that are screaming over this, they might have realized their estimates are completely hamstered. I thought the same thing they did until I actually tested it and found it was much worse. The proc rate has dropped dramatically, and even having high crit/severity doesn't make up for it. Everyone is assuming the SS offhand feature is what's causing the drop, but it's not! I'm not even using that (because I didn't realize it was bugged in our favor), and my proc rate is plummeting anyway.

    [NOTE: First two image see original author's post]

    Single target setup (CoI(Tab), RoE, Dis, CS) in the Cold Run "Out of Supplies" weekly:
    Live:


    Preview:


    Equaling a proc rate drop of 31%, overall SS damage drop of 12%. (I know the sample size on this one is pretty small, but it's perfectly in line with the other results)

    But please, do tell me more about how I'm not getting nerfed.

    @terramak @asterdahl @balanced#2849

    Still while I can agree that Storm Spell was a bit overpowered I do think they took it just a little bit too far - especially as other have noticed a Wizard is Average to Good at best in DPS contrast to a Great Weapon Fighter or Warlock in MOD 13. .
    Please invite us to your "dreamland-server" where a SW and a GWF play in the same league concerning dps :) you made my day
    Warlock got a dps increase like 20% in mod 13, wich won´t close the gap vs a skilled GWF, Hunter GF.
    A warlock using a broken setup is able to fullfill the dps-role.
    But even dealing a big chunk of extradamage with a broken power he loses vs a competent GWF, GF, Hunter and maybe on par with a CW on a single target.
    We talk about near double effectiveness on single targets 500% +++ ..... not sufficient to head up to the leading classes , not !
    One of many reason is the fact that warlocks only hard hitting encounter hits like a wet noodle compared to Griffons Wrath, IBS or SoD :)

    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2018

    strathkin said:

    pterias said:

    Nope, not letting this get lost in the old, locked thread. Your internal estimates on the Storm Spell changes are WRONG!

    ---
    Well, if the devs had had the decency to talk to the people that are screaming over this, they might have realized their estimates are completely hamstered. I thought the same thing they did until I actually tested it and found it was much worse. The proc rate has dropped dramatically, and even having high crit/severity doesn't make up for it. Everyone is assuming the SS offhand feature is what's causing the drop, but it's not! I'm not even using that (because I didn't realize it was bugged in our favor), and my proc rate is plummeting anyway.

    Single target setup (CoI(Tab), RoE, Dis, CS) in the Cold Run "Out of Supplies" weekly:
    Live:


    Preview:


    Equaling a proc rate drop of 31%, overall SS damage drop of 12%. (I know the sample size on this one is pretty small, but it's perfectly in line with the other results)

    But please, do tell me more about how I'm not getting nerfed.

    @terramak @asterdahl @balanced#2849

    Still while I can agree that Storm Spell was a bit overpowered I do think they took it just a little bit too far - especially as other have noticed a Wizard is Average to Good at best in DPS contrast to a Great Weapon Fighter or Warlock in MOD 13. .
    Please invite us to your "dreamland-server" where a SW and a GWF play in the same league concerning dps :) you made my day - Warlock got a dps increase like 20% in mod 13, wich won´t close the gap vs a skilled GWF, Hunter GF.
    A warlock using a broken setup is able to fullfill the dps-role.
    But even dealing a big chunk of extradamage with a broken power he loses vs a competent GWF, GF, Hunter and maybe on par with a CW on a single target.
    We talk about near double effectiveness on single targets 500% +++ ..... not sufficient to head up to the leading classes , not !
    One of many reason is the fact that warlocks only hard hitting encounter hits like a wet noodle compared to Griffons Wrath, IBS or SoD :)

    Well in MOD 13 Warlock does receive a boost (20% boost as you claim) unlike the Nerf Wizard's are about receive. Not to mention the additional power Warlocks will get that will PROC weapon's enchantments per tick by design to get one feat to trigger as intended.

    Sure many classes will loose weapon enchantments from MULTI-PROCs on a single cast; except for GWF which may have been overlooked, otherwise Warlocks had a power designed to MULTI-PROC on every tick for Mod 13. Warlocks also obtained a noticeable BUFF to one or two of their powers (a 20% improvement) as you also claim. Warlocks were at shown a lot more love than Wizard's were with Mod 13 although I'm not claiming Wizard's were treated bad - just thought the Storm Spell NERF went a little too far -- that's all.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10818654

    Still I don't think a Warlocks or Wizard's will ever beat out a Great Weapon Fighter/Guardian or maybe even some Hunter Rangers. I realize Warlocks aren't exceptional at DPS but neither are Wizard's; both can be OK and if you have the right top end Enchantments even quite Good. Still often people in a party will also see out Warlocks or Wizard's for some additional healing, buff's, or AOE (control) to manage/mitigate the damage a party receives...

    I just simply thought Wizard's Storm Spell NERF went a little too far. I however wish what they would finally revisit is some of the mostly worthless or rarely used Class Powers many if not all classes have and these are but a few of the examples take from some classes and there are others.

    Wizard's Worthless Class Powers:
    ▪ Arcane Presence: Why buff Chill/Cold (have Chilling Presence do we need 2.0?) does nothing for Arcane/Lighting?
    ╘ Should extend Arcane stacks damage up from 3% per stack to 0.5%-0.75% per level, or max 3% to 5/6% per stack.
    ╘ Yet should remove the Cold Damage boost - Perhaps add part of it to Frost Wave.
    ╘ Perhaps then more Arcane Wizard's would also consider it for the slight speed boost to Arcane powers.
    ▪ Frost Wave: Activate Daily-immobilze foes within 30' for 1s (2s if facing away out to 8s) out to 4s.
    ╘ Should add in Cold based damage boost (Esp. if taken out of Arcane Presence buff's 134%) to offer 50-75% for 4-8s.

    Hunter Ranger's Worthless Class Powers:
    ▪ Pathfinder-Battlehoned: +100 regeneration per level out to +400 max.
    ╘ Updated to buff % of existing regeneration by 5% per level out to 20%. With 2000 still be 400 yet scales with you. :)
    ▪ Pathfinder-Cruel Recovery: Dealing critical damage gain 1% HP for 4 seconds out to 16s as Temp HP? Honesty 1%?
    ╘ Updated to buff 5% temp HP and 4 seconds per level or 20% and 16s max.
    ▪ Crushing Roots: Weak Roots daze for .125 sec & Strong Roots daze for .25 sec?
    ╘ Update to also enchance Root Encounter, At-Will damage by 2.5% per level or (10% max) they are crushing aren't they?

    NOTE: Plant Growth does not use Grasping Root's HR Mechanic; it does not PROC or extend root times from feats that extend weak or strong roots; even though it does apparently claim to root or hold. Thought I should clarify that as one person spoke of HR Plant Growth being powerful; yet they explained it's also not a class power. It's also a go to for HR just like Disintegrate is for Wizard's.

    Warlock (FEEL Free to identify some you think should be added here) as Worthless:
    ▪ Paragon-Class Power: And why you think it's worthless along with a suggestion to fix it.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • zanaspus1zanaspus1 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    zanaspus1 said:

    At the risk of being flamed. Back in my day, we played, had fun together, and no non-statisticians felt the need to do the math.

    Not here to flame you, but it bears mentioning that, back in the day as it were, games like this didn't come with baked-in damage meters that made it extremely clear how well or how poorly you were performing.

    Players also tend to like to feel that they are "winning" at something, and knowing that your chosen class is subpar for its primary role can be a bit depressing. Thus all of the statistics flying around in the hopes of achieving better overall balance so that players of various classes feel that they are contributing more and having more fun.

    Well said. I guess it's one of my shortcomings that having fun was always preferable to winning. If you want to "win" there are more productive things than sitting in front of a computer.
  • eion311eion311 Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    terramak said:



    Art, Effects, and Audio
    Character Art

    • Bulette mounts no longer shrink on Preview.
    This didn't happen, the mount is still tiny on live
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    @strathkin

    The disagreement @schietindebux and I have with your post is initially putting SW dps on GWF level then making it sound as if SW and CW are on the same dps level which is incorrect ad well. Assuming setups, no top tier SW stands a chance vs top tier CW aka @thefabricant + level as he has pointed out there are like to CWs he deems more powerful than himself.

    As for the ~20% dps SW buff @schietindebux most likely meant it would true assuming the fury SW takes all tweaked feats but here's the thing, you'd have to give up the Damnation paragon feat called "Power of the Nine Hells" which is what makes Pillar of power decent in the first place so it is mandatory on any Hellbringer path loadout (that effectively makes you give up 10 feat points to keep Po9H) as otherwise the damage teammates would lose (because of inconsistent buff from Pillar) would outweight what little % of dps you gain by spending 10 extra feats on Fury paragon tree. And not only that, you also need to consider that HB SW at endgame level had already lost ~10% dps in mod 12b (so on top of bonding nerf, there was a nerf to SW dps) because of Owlbear Cub Changes whicj is why warlocks why legit dps were further left behind by thr other strikers in that module. You see what I mean now? That 20% "buff" isn't quite the "rework" non warlock players think it is.

    As for Class Features, sure, I can explain you why SW is the class and especially the striker with that, by far, has the worst ones, feel free to compare them to CW's and tell me what you think.

    Available to both paragons:

    Dark one's Blessing and Shadowalk: Lifesteal + movement/lifesteal severity. Lol?

    All consuming curse: at rank 4, 100% chance to spread Lesser Curse when critically striking target(s). It is mostly used on Fury build to proc bonus damage from the capstone (which requires enemy to be cursed with tab/Warlock's curse or Lesser Curse but generallly has litttle time to do anything as other astrikers kill trash mobs so fast and said bonus damage is a slow DoT. If you pick the artifact weapon boost, it gives you... 5% crit severity.

    Deadly Curse: When you tab curse and enemy, it deals damage (n buff groups can hit for a few x00k if I remeber correctly). With Hellbringer paragon and fury built, the overwhelming majority of you powers won't proc this so you don't it use it ever. For a Slulbinder fury build, it is meh but still better than lifesteal Class Features, by better I mean ~4% of your dps im a fbi run according to ACT logs done by @pyrosorcerer
    It is worth noting it does not but your main source of damage as Soulbinder whatsoever (encounter power "Soulscorch") so there's little to no synergy (unliker you guys with your chill stuff)

    Dark Prayers: Lifesteal and Damage Resistance when you drop below certain % of hp (I think it is 50%). Lol?

    Hellbringer passives:

    Flames of empowerment: Each time you use an at-will, it puts a 5 debuff to the enemy, stacks up to 3 times for a total of 15% (18% if having artifact weapon boost). Horribly underpowered and slow to apply.

    No Pity No Mercy: Your Hellish Rebuke DoT at-will... loses its DoT and the first hit is 50% more powerful. Lol? I don't know of any other Class Feature of any other striker class where to get the (mediocre) damage bonus you have to... give up something about the very power that's getting the "bonus".

    Prince of Hell: 8% lifesteal chance and Resistance Ignored...

    Soulbinder passives:

    Dust to Dust: After a fight ends/when you're in "out of combat" status, if you have any Soulsparks left, you gain action points based on how many you have left. If you choose certain feat/boost, it can you up to 5% more damage if you have 30 sparks, problem is, your main source of damage, Soulscorch, consumes them so the bonus you get fr this is <5%, no synergy with your most important power.

    Borrowed time: It <b class="Bold">heals you based on how many sooulsparks you have.

    Snuff out: When an enemy does nearby you, you get a soulspark.


    So there you have them and now I ask you, what are they vs: Chilling Presence, Spell Storm, Aspect of the Serpernt, Seeker's Vengeance, GWF destroyer whatever is called, Combat Superiority, Shield Warrior's Wrath and those of Master Inflitrator TR tjat synergise very well with their mechanics and very high action point gain?

    See? SW's "best" are garbage. Oh the support classes DC (as DO) have Terryfing Insight (20% more damage buff for everyone in the group) and Paladin have Aura of Courage (in buff groups, this outperforms TI for a few classes and benefits warlocks far less than any other striker)

    So, do you notice the lack of proper damage multipliers or meaningful damage sources (from great synergy with mechanics or via powerful procs) warlocks suffer from? Literary any class absolutely destroys warlock in that regard.
    It is the same with our paragon feats, they generally are (individually or how they synergise) significantly inferior to those of other classes. If those things were addressed and our casting times as well (mod 13 doesn't), warlock would be more in line with the other damage dealers so, until that doesn't change, Scourge Warlock will still comfortably be the worst damage dealer.

    @balanced as long as warlock lacks proper self-buffing via powerful damage multipliers (that the other strikers do meanwhile we have hardcore weak debuffs or worthless "bonuses" like lifesteal) and casting times are as high as they are now, SW will continue to be the worst damage dealer (actually, more like the only one that is underpowered and that much). Oh and DoT damage from powers and procs, like Creeping Death, needs to tick a lot faster and/or to have less ticks with each one being much more powerful.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Hey I never said anything about that, you missed what I was completely referencing... People find one little tiny part and without asking for clarification or looking at the larger context they make a reply 5x-7x longer that the one you posted. I had in one of the first messages talking about the NERF to Wizard's Storm Spell comparing it to the treatment GWF and Warlocks in MOD 13 were treated with. I never claimed or thought I used wording to suggest they were in the same damage category by any means. GWF are by far the dominant DPS class most often, some Guardians / Hunters can close the GAP but Great Weapon are still the leaders...

    As jaime4312 said above, "SW will still comfortably be the worst damage dealer in mod 13" and while I can't compare as I've never played one nor ever claimed to. I still find where he says they will be the worse damage dealer in Mod 13 a little hard to swallow...

    Another player earlier in the thread or one of the others on PREVIEW who plays both a Warlock & Wizard compared performance of both on Preview with similar gear / enchantments between his Wizard & Warlock; while I don't recall the difference's he spoke about on DoT / AoE, for Single Target he claimed it was comparable on Preview. Now I need to try to find the post and quote it below...

    ...Still my comment referencing both Warlock & GWF together was a reference only to state of MOD 13 as the only two classes that have a power that MULTI-PROCs Weapon Enchantments. Now with at least Warlocks in the Patch notes below it clearly identifies this was by design to buff one power; while also getting it to PROC a FEAT as intended. Great Weapon's Fighter's I don't see any mention of there power referencing a by design feature and many think it may have been over looked and get corrected in the future?

    Still the NERF from all I've read to Storm Spell sounds like it was a bit higher than it should have been.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • jdizzle4469#7877 jdizzle4469 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    Why in earth would you hamster damage on stormspell? I have played ss cw since day one on consoul. I have invested alot of money into this character. 8 lgdry comps,10 mythic artifacts,3 weapon-gear,neck,waist lgdrys plus 2 lgdry mounts and 20 something mounts. As of right now Cws aren't even in the top 3 for endgame dmg!!!. I feel I have to change to mof build to buff/dmg! I personally hate the mof side. The mof side is NOT what I enjoyed spending money and time on .
    I've watched your dev livestreams and 1 part I remember the most is the statement of. Healers are going to heal tanks are going to tank and dps are going to bring the pain!!!!. Now WHY is there a tank class cranking out top dmg in game today?. Right now cw/sw/tr are not even wanted as a dps...These classes perform so much under the gf,hr,and gwf as dps it's not cool. We the players put time and money in all these characters (ALOT).All classes should be able to feel viable even if it's in different situations and to be able to crank out dps achieving that WOW factor that this game once had. When I'm a dps YES I'm very competitive and YES I want to be on top of the board! If you think otherwise then you are full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! That's what dps do. If I want to buff or heal I will jump on a support class.
    So I really hope you are looking into this and hopefully soon. 3 to 6 months is well just ridiculous to even read any info on what's going on.
    To all gf,hr,gwf I by all means mean NO HAMSTER to any of your classes as I play right along side you. Neverwinter bring these underperforming classes up plz.... AND for the love of god drop some CONTENT
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