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Divine Oracle - Terrifying Insight - My Thoughts on adjusting it
mebengalsfan
Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
in The Temple
I been playing NW on PS4 since day 1 launch. My first character is my DC and the character has gone through a variety of changes since I create him/her, whatever gender the DC is now, lol.
I have played both paragon paths of DO and AC. In the current state of game for DCs, the DO DC provides the group buff Terrifying Insight that is easy to achieve at level 70 and provides the group a nice bonus to damage out. There is no effort other than activating and putting four power points into the personal to achieve maximum results and the buff it provides is one of the best in the game. It is sickening to see such a personal that does so much buffing to the group damage that at level 70 and being 4K IL a DO DC can be effective in T3 dungeons if they were allowed into the content.
Terrifying Insight should be looked into and adjusted to make it scale as the Character Item Level and stats increase.
Since most DC are based on power and to balance out both AC DC and DO to make them equally viable the thought I have on adjusting Terrifying Insight would be based on the power stat of a DO. Now what I have below is initial thought on it and I'm sure others will have their own input on it as well; of course there will also be those that play a DO that simply want it to say as is, and that is fine as well.
The thought I have is that a DC base power, either be it 1K, 2.5K, 5K, etc... would increase the base bonus damage from TI. With four points and say around 40K base power a DO would achieve a higher damage % bonus for TI than what TI provides today. This would encourage DO DC to improve their character stats and IL.
Example: Each Point into Terrifying Insight you increases the bonus damage for you and group by 0.00015% of your base power.
A DO DC today with 40K base power provides 20% with TI. However, with this change that same DC would provide 24% with this change with with four power points into TI.
For player who have say 25K power would now provide 15% bonus damage.
Please feel free to comment on this change and the impact it may have to the DC class and game.
I have played both paragon paths of DO and AC. In the current state of game for DCs, the DO DC provides the group buff Terrifying Insight that is easy to achieve at level 70 and provides the group a nice bonus to damage out. There is no effort other than activating and putting four power points into the personal to achieve maximum results and the buff it provides is one of the best in the game. It is sickening to see such a personal that does so much buffing to the group damage that at level 70 and being 4K IL a DO DC can be effective in T3 dungeons if they were allowed into the content.
Terrifying Insight should be looked into and adjusted to make it scale as the Character Item Level and stats increase.
Since most DC are based on power and to balance out both AC DC and DO to make them equally viable the thought I have on adjusting Terrifying Insight would be based on the power stat of a DO. Now what I have below is initial thought on it and I'm sure others will have their own input on it as well; of course there will also be those that play a DO that simply want it to say as is, and that is fine as well.
The thought I have is that a DC base power, either be it 1K, 2.5K, 5K, etc... would increase the base bonus damage from TI. With four points and say around 40K base power a DO would achieve a higher damage % bonus for TI than what TI provides today. This would encourage DO DC to improve their character stats and IL.
Example: Each Point into Terrifying Insight you increases the bonus damage for you and group by 0.00015% of your base power.
A DO DC today with 40K base power provides 20% with TI. However, with this change that same DC would provide 24% with this change with with four power points into TI.
For player who have say 25K power would now provide 15% bonus damage.
Please feel free to comment on this change and the impact it may have to the DC class and game.
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Comments
I think the concept of an aura that grants a large damage boost is fine, but it is so much better than every other class feature that as a divine oracle if you don't have it slotted, you should be immediately kicked from the group. There are only two acceptable reasons to ever unslot terrifying insight, which are if there is already an oracle in your party with it slotted and if you want to intentionally nerf your party's damage. So this is the angle I take on terrifying insight when looked at in a vacuum.
But I think it would be even more confusing trying to explain this mechanic along with power sharing to new players. I already do not like how power sharing works, since it is so difficult to explain and understand. Obviously this isn't power sharing, but it would be another power related equation I would have to explain to my friends. Not something I really want to do.
If I just wanted to change it to make it seem at least slightly more balanced, I would be more inclined to just make it work like foresight or something, so that it took some work to proc it on allies, however, I think cleric as a whole might just need a big design pass that works out exactly how the two paragon paths should be unique, useful, fun, and non-stacking because it would likely require changing almost everything about the class.
One thing to question is how it breaks the DO/AC dichotomy.
Right now, I find the two DC paragon paths are fairly distinct, with one being more oriented towards newcomers (DO) and the other being useful for more experienced players (AC). I like the fact that, if I want to run a newer/pocket alt DC through things, they can play DO while the more serious DC player plays AC, and nobody suffers.
If you make this based off Power, it slightly ruins the noob friendly aspect of DO (HG and EmpBtS are still "point in these or not" powers, so not quite ruined, but it hurts a large part of what makes DO so n00b friendly.) But on the other hand, one of the things I like about this TI is that your buffing potential scales with gear and thus provides incentives to gear your character more.
However, the way it is suggested gives me second thoughts. Converting Power into a straight damage buff has a high chance of bringing a ton of
bugsfeatures.I would place a good bet on the devs simply programming the new TI as Powershare, and we all know +4000 Power is not the same as a 10% DPS increase. Why not make it like Condemning Gaze or the Mod13 Templock curse feat where your attacks will place TI on targets?
This way, the DO can't just potato in the corner and solves the whole "who gets in the DO party" epeen fest.
that would definitely fit the oracle playstyle better than what I had suggested, but probably still could be party limited--not that it is a good thing.
Anyhow, another mechanic that scales with power is stupid. It will be exploited like every other power based mechanic.
Further to that, making the stat/equipment priority of AC, PVP, and DO builds would make it pointless to specialize which I'm sure cryptic doesn't want to do (thy want you to have three sets of gear to support those loadouts).
Only if they revert ITF back to being based on RI so the DO has a place in party. Just because loadouts are a thing, doesn't mean killing a tree is the right thing to do. Even the "oddball" dps isn't viable. If the dc didn't have the buff/debuff potentional we do we would be screaming for DO to be more viable in a dps role since CW has control builds (equally useless to heals), debuff builds (comporable to DC after the mod 13 changes). and DPS build (Far superior to DC).
>so the DO has a place in party.
If we are to go back to 1 DC as Cryptic has said that they want, one paragon has to go. The only other option is to radically rework the class so that the various Paragon specific abilities are basically meaningless so that AC or DO is just fluff. Otherwise, a 1 DC party is going to be 1 of whichever Paragon is deemed best.
Because every class has 2 end-game viable paragons.
And as @pitshade said one challenge is that the strongest powers of each type of a dc are unique to that build. IF the main features were shared, and the options were secondary abilities it would be entirely different.
Remember when AC was just tankier and DO was just more DPS oriented. All PVE clerics were DO, all PVP clerics were AC. The classes weren't defined by the buff, they were defined by where you wanted to land in terms of survive-ability vs personal dps.
If they put diminishing returns on +%damage buffs then they kill DO because TI is affected but not AA.
If they stop power share from transferring from pets, they kill AC for the same reason.
If they somehow make AA and TI mutually exclusive, they probably kill AC because the entry level is so high - since you gain nothing by gradually progressing to more and more power. Either you have it or you don't and getting it is expensive.
And if they do succeed in removing one DC, another support oriented build is just going to take that spot. There are too many options waiting in the wings and I doubt Cryptic's willingness and ability to root all of it out, even if they do want to follow their stated goal of getting to 3 dps parties with less buffs. It is likely that the 2 DCs will be standard at least until Summer, regardless.
On the bright side, if they just delete one of the paragons, we might see two damage dealer parties, because you know templocks are damage dealers kek.
DO has it pretty good in a way, since TI is a slot-it-and-forget-it solution independent of character build and enchantment loadout (overlooking for the moment the fact that it is rather lazy and way overtuned for a feature that requires no action other than staying alive and being in the same general area). With WoL no longer stacking in the next mod, power stacking may be less of a requirement for some, but in my case I run black ice enchants and play as AC or DO depending on the party's need, and I always want to be prepared to share in the event that I'm the only DC, regardless of which path I'm using.
In short, yes, I agree that TI needs to be modified. However, I would like to see fewer interactions with the power stat and would prefer an alternative tweak to make it more interactive and rewarding.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
or really make it triggered from some powers or have CD (for exemple, have buff for inviting the fight for 10-20 sec. and 20 sec CD).
DO should be more playable because have +20% buff just to stay is a lot.
This is to encourage all DC builds to work on there character. A DO simply need the content opened, TI, FF, DG, and PoD and bam you are into all content if you have the content opened with frost resist for FBI. Sorry that is easy mode for this class and I'm sick of easy mode in MMO games. Even with 20K power, which is fairly easy to come by and with four points into TI the DO would provide 12% damage buff, which is still decent buff.
Another thought I had is completely rework TI to be something different. Maybe reduce damage by 10% from enemies and increase damage by 10% instead of the 20% damage buff that TI provides today. That is another thought I had. What I didn't want to do is make the DO completely useless, I wanted to have it so that players had to work on their character to make TI more effective instead of slotting it with 4 power points and off to the race they go with a 20% damage buff.
It's a nerf because currently DO can slot crit and does stack crit, with a change such as mention it will first require all DO's to redesign their stat layout and join the mobs of classes forgoing crit which is not a good thing.
Secondly your targeting under-geared players. I think the current setup is good as you can level and play as DO, get to max/min and you can choose your playstyle. That is a good style for us (much better than the old days).
this as usual is an attack on the 2DC meta, when the focus should be on the 4 support meta. Any attempt that targets DC is not a solution, it is a bandaid and will only result at people turning their rage to another symptom because DPS can't get into parties. The 1 DPS slot is the source of the frustration, it is only visualized by the unexperienced as 2DC.
A buff to damage resistence is useless unless your talking about low gear groups/content.
Any nerf to DO buffs/debuffs would need to be corresponded with a significant buff in personal dps. As I've said before, CW provides similar contribution to party in terms of buffs/debuffs while having far superior dps potential. Say what you want about the role of clerics in game, but the reality is they've turned all the other classes into DPS machines, even with nerfs to OP they typically out dps clerics and Conq GF is far superior in DPS.
Diminishing Returns puts everything on a slider between group contribution and personal DPS. Then you have to quantify what's best for your team, do you take a HR that can give you longstriders and a ton of personal dps or do you take a dc which can give more buff/debuff but less personal dps? Do you stack all your buff/debuff potential on two characters in the party or do you role with 5 dps/buff/debuff characters? Do you take two power sharing classes (AC and OP), one power sharing class while the other focuses on other duties besides power share, or do you free up your dps to focus on crit/recovery.
It certainly creates interesting dynamics if done properly.
The other issue that it is so easy to get the 20%. Maybe my idea is not the best way to solve it. Maybe the devs could update Brand of the Sun fate and make it apply a 10% bonus damage buff when TI is slotted. And TI only give 10% when slotted. This way, players actually have to work a bit to get the 20%. Just another thought on how to update TI.
As for the 4 buff build, this will only go away if the devs do something that make being a full fledge DPS worth wild. Even good GWF provide a small buff, same with HR and TR. All classes can provide a buff and having a group that is focused on completing content ASAP will forgo pure self damage and apply a buff or debuff to make runs faster.
My CW I use RoE or run my MoF DPS build with SoD. Another way to fix the buff mania we are seeing is create a role designed around buffing and remove buffing/debuffing from all classes that cannot fill said role. When a class can fill said role, it would require the unique encounter, personal and dailies based the paragon path to play as a buffer.
Using a CW as as an example, if you go MoF you would always be Q'd into content as a buffer as that paragon path would mark that class as the buffer role, even if the player creates a full on MoF DPS.
This would result in less buffing/debuffing from all classes and tanks would tank, healers would heal and buffers would buff and debuff.
With cour comments about the class roles though we dive right back into problems having so many roles obsolete. CC isn't a role but content doesn't support it, Healer isn't a role but content doesn't support it.
You even have issues among the dps types. Instead of having scenarios where ranged dps is superior to melee we have an environment where these capabilites are not factors. Same goes for AOE builds versus single target. There is no scenario where building for these types of dps makes any sense. So everything gets melted down to what you see on paingiver.
There is no easy fix and these continued nerfs aren't resolving the problems introduced since module 1 and the rise of the CW as the swiss army knife of neverwinter.
Second, yes the nerf/buffing of classes is getting annoying. Tweaking a class results in one of two things: the tweak adjusts the class into uselessness or it buffs the class to be top performer. Rarely is there anything in between.
The problem with tweaking classes is that it is not solving the bigger issue and that is how buffs and debuffs work, The devs put a hard on diminishing returns that a well designed team hits rather quickly. For me it should be a hard cap that is easy to reach with 2 or 3 support roles in the group . Maybe the soft cap can be reached with 2 and the hard cap hit with 3.
For instance, imagine if there is a hard cap of 30% damage buff that can be added to the group from dailies, personals, encounters, companions, etc...this means the GF ITF would hit that cap and a DO IT would effective only when ITF is on CD and time ran out for the buff. This cap would than allow the GF or the DC to go with some thing different.
Debuffs could be similar. No more stacking the Sell Sword / Con Artist / Rebel Merc companions to get max debuff for defense.
The devs are trying but if they do a big push on limiting the cap it would probably hit the game population pretty bad; therefore I think we have quite a while where the game will be in its current state with a class, like the DC, becomes the focus of being adjusted so groups stop running two of the class. Eventually another class will take its spot and the devs will probably do the same to that class, etc...
Fastest ToNG run I have been a part of on my DC has been with a GF, CW Buffer,DO DC, GWF and OP Tank. OP tank shared around 15K power, I share around 3.7K power with just WoL, and than the CW and GF both provided damage bonus buff along with TI bonus damage. After I called out BtS empowered the GF hit his daily, ITF, KC, and 3 GW and Orcus went. It took less than 30 seconds to kill Orcus, same with the other two bosses, well that is how it felt for that run any ways. We spent more time running to the bosses than actually fighting. The GWF was in there for Battle Fury and for his DPS, he was good but no where near the GF in damage.
Lets take an example in master sp. IF i play a class-build that is perfect for aoe damage this damage leads to a faster clearance should get ignore based on what are you saying because a class-build better to single target will deal faster damage than me on bosses.
I Will agree the paingiver to show for both cases not just for bosses .
Instead of using a cc control/dps to clear mobs and a single target dps to clear bosses. There is no diversity in types of dps just good vs bad dps.
I have seen plenty of 16K players who simply stink at playing this game. Yeah you are 16K, but you are not efficient with your character to run FBI, forget MPSC or T9.
I dont exactly think it needs change myself but I find it pretty interesting still. with the adjustments coming in mod13 you never know what might be next.
that would make an even "nicer" distance between highly geared and less geared ones, yes?
i can still remember your early thread on bondings... you requested them to be less powerful when you still had low ones...
so, you apparently require a steeper ascent for smaller chars after yours is grown
and a lighter ascent for them when yours was small...
DO path is now taken by less gueared DCs as you know, precisely because their power stat is not high enough to make power sharing very meaningful...
and there are IL entry requirements in dungeons (no 4k char in an 11k dungeon for instance)
enjoy the game and let others enjoy if you can!
As for a 4K character getting into an 11K dungeon, I surely hope they don't. But the truth is a 4K DO is just as effective (if they know what they are doing) as a 17K DO. That was my point.
I can admit that using power to adjust the damage % of TI may not be the best way to resolve the simplicity of TI and its easy mode that has resulted in seeing many DO simply showing up and hoping to be carried through content. The devs need to do something so that TI is marked onto targets hit by the DO or another way to make it so that DO actually have to help the group other than simply walk along side them while doing almost nothing.
I know when I run as a DO, I'm doing all sorts of things to ensure maximum buffing and debuffing for my group beyond just TI, but some simply don't and because of this it is why I am here trying to have a open discussion on finding a way to make TI not a passive for the group but a personal that requires the DO to be involved to activate it for the group.
I ran with a DO today that didn't even use TI. They did not really use any ability and simply walked with us as we killed stuff. This type of behavior happens often when pulling in a random DC that is not an AC/DC. It is why my group typically wants me to run DO due to the laziness of other DO DCs we have ran with in the past.
It is why when I see in my alliance anyone asking for help as a DC, I pull them into a private chat and walk them through being a DO, as most are low IL. I explain the basic mechanic and than I jump on my GF and run with them and give them pointers afterwards.
When a player is near BiS and cannot even help the group out other than provide TI, yeah there is an issue within the game where some DCs are carried for their TI and that is an issue and why TI needs to be tweaked.
And like I said, my initial idea is probably not the best solution. It was my initial thought on fixing it. After thinking it over, maybe make TI a mark of sorts that a DC does when using an encounter or At-Will.
Maybe they can do something like this:
TI Power:
Gives the DC 2,5%, 5%, 7,5%, 10% extra damage buff (personal)
also shares 4,5%, 9%, 13,5%, 18% of base power as extra damage to the cleric and the group
Dunno if that will work with WoL..