I did not get exactly if and how a CW is keeping his debuffs up all time on a single target, but I assume the CW is not capable to do so 24/7 ?
The MoF debuffs depends on Smolder being on the target. Smolder can be refreshed by applying Chill, and CWs have no shortage on ways to apply Chill. So Smolder can be kept up by refreshing Chill, and thus the debuffs can be kept up 24/7.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited January 2018
I'd gladly give away all my buffs to CWs, if that meant giving us a protector line that puts us on par with OP tanks. It's what I originally signed up for (we also used to be the only pure tanking class, once upon a time), but these days I have to settle for a buffbot, it seems.
The fact that Nas Sri seems to have mechanics specifically designed to screw over GF tanks doesn't really help either.
The entire discussion of GF vs. MoF is probably going to be of little interest in 4 weeks anyways.
When mod 13 hits with the DC nerfs, the preferred group will be OP, DC, MoF, GF and GWF?
Still going to be:
AC DC/DO DC/OP/DPS GF/(insert DPS class here, preferrably non useless HR)
For the new trial, I honestly expect a lot of teams attempting to get both GF and MoF anyways since 10 players gives you a lot of room for flexibility.
I play CW as my main w/ a mof renegade loadout just in case. I have never run tong, mostly cuz people will only invite you if they just need a 5th body and I really don't like being a 5th wheel, so I don't bother begging for an invite.
It's okay, CW's and a few other classes got pretty much left out this mod and DC overworked overtime. It's okay if GF buff or GF dps beats CW mof in effectiveness in tong, it just means the devs need to give CW mof renegade a lil luv'n.
One thing I'm not sure of though, is the debuffs from swath and ca, are a reduction to affected target's dr, or a flat increase to damage taken like it's worded? It's kind of an important question, cuz if it's a reduction to ri, it's a pretty useless debuff at this point unless party's ri is not maxed.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I play CW as my main w/ a mof renegade loadout just in case. I have never run tong, mostly cuz people will only invite you if they just need a 5th body and I really don't like being a 5th wheel, so I don't bother begging for an invite.
It's okay, CW's and a few other classes got pretty much left out this mod and DC overworked overtime. It's okay if GF buff or GF dps beats CW mof in effectiveness in tong, it just means the devs need to give CW mof renegade a lil luv'n.
One thing I'm not sure of though, is the debuffs from swath and ca, are a reduction to affected target's dr, or a flat increase to damage taken like it's worded? It's kind of an important question, cuz if it's a reduction to ri, it's a pretty useless debuff at this point unless party's ri is not maxed.
It's actually nither a direct damage increase, nor RI reduction. Debuffs have their own, separate behavior, all debuffs on a target summed up, then there is a diminishing returns functions that reduces and caps the sum and turns it into a damage increase.
The entire discussion of GF vs. MoF is probably going to be of little interest in 4 weeks anyways.
When mod 13 hits with the DC nerfs, the preferred group will be OP, DC, MoF, GF and GWF?
Still going to be:
AC DC/DO DC/OP/DPS GF/(insert DPS class here, preferrably non useless HR)
For the new trial, I honestly expect a lot of teams attempting to get both GF and MoF anyways since 10 players gives you a lot of room for flexibility.
Ok, why? Is the DC nerf not hard enough so it still pays with two DCs? That means Cryptic needs to nerf DCs harder.
The reason why two DCs in a Tong team is not wanted by Cryptic is that there generally is a DC shortage in game, and if we spend two DCs on each Tong run the number of possible Tong runs get halved. And that again means that a lot of slightly less efficient classes get left out. Moving away from 2-DC Tong runs will be a huge blessing for the game overall.
@micky1p00 and @gohaken Thank you for the replies. That is definitely counter intuitive. I'll need to get act set up to test how effective mof renegade debuffs actually are. I'm not a math master, but I'm not completely incompetent in the area either. It would be good for me to understand how it all actually works "under the hood" instead of blindly applying debuffs. Maybe there is thread around that can explain it a bit more in depth.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
@micky1p00 and @gohaken Thank you for the replies. That is definitely counter intuitive. I'll need to get act set up to test how effective mof renegade debuffs actually are. I'm not a math master, but I'm not completely incompetent in the area either. It would be good for me to understand how it all actually works "under the hood" instead of blindly applying debuffs. Maybe there is thread around that can explain it a bit more in depth.
The entire discussion of GF vs. MoF is probably going to be of little interest in 4 weeks anyways.
When mod 13 hits with the DC nerfs, the preferred group will be OP, DC, MoF, GF and GWF?
Still going to be:
AC DC/DO DC/OP/DPS GF/(insert DPS class here, preferrably non useless HR)
For the new trial, I honestly expect a lot of teams attempting to get both GF and MoF anyways since 10 players gives you a lot of room for flexibility.
Ok, why? Is the DC nerf not hard enough so it still pays with two DCs? That means Cryptic needs to nerf DCs harder.
The reason why two DCs in a Tong team is not wanted by Cryptic is that there generally is a DC shortage in game, and if we spend two DCs on each Tong run the number of possible Tong runs get halved. And that again means that a lot of slightly less efficient classes get left out. Moving away from 2-DC Tong runs will be a huge blessing for the game overall.
I don't understand, why do we need a stick mentality when it comes to rebalancing a class? Sticks should be reserved for those that abuse the system or grief players/devs/mods.
I also don't understand the mentality in those that think you need to take out the fun in a class to ensure a pecking order, is there really such a complete lack of imagination that the only solution is a single word, nerf.
The Devs know how to implement these changes and the players know what they like most about the class and what they like least about the class, there needs to be a conversation between the two in order to find the right balance. Obviously the last one they had wasn't the only one they needed.
So to summarise my thoughts, I don't know anything about DC's, but when it comes to rebalancing a class, nerf should be the absolute, very last, nuclear option.
EDIT: Brain HAMSTER, just swap DC with MoF/GF or whatever your prefered class is.
I will just add this Calculating effectiveness to dps is really wrong as it includes 2 values. 0-100% is the Resistance Ignored and above 100% it's the debuffs.
So to calculate a cw debuff to damage we need to do effectiveness%-100%, for example at 250% effectiveness the debuff is 150%.
Now I don't know how a paladin and 2 dc can have 100% debuff, from what I see they have about 80%. Apologies if I'm wrong and please correct me. Condemned 15% Glow 17% Prop.Of.Doom 12.5 Sins 10% Bane 30% Total = 84.5%
Cw has actually 35+20+24+5+3 = 87%
Now we will calculate the damage increase based on the debuff alone and not the effectiveness and we get the following (as you can see diminishing returns are applied)
Now lets try again.
Assume debuff is at 84% before adding either class. 2) GF has 18% debuffs. 3) CW has 87% 4) We are ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those. 5) We are ignoring the possibility that Inspiring Leader stacks. 6) Both classes provide Combat Advantage, so ignoring that. 7) Ignoring crit+arp buffs because you don't assume people are built badly in theoretical situations.
CW 1.15 (Chaotic Fury) * 1.35 (DpS increase from debuffs) = 1.5525 Just going by the above assumptions which we can do more in a dungeon assuming a MoF is build right.
If we adjust for about 20% (2/3rds of the time up) damage from fury we actually have 1.2 *1.35 = 1.62 buff potential.
There are few more things to add like * We often neglect a cw can do damage too, not 3 griffon damage for sure but still personally I'm never less than 450m as a second dps and my top was 600m in less than 30m runs. On the other hand its more likely to see a cw doing dps rather than a gf at least on how the server is now (meaning there are very few dps GF). * Chaotic fury is by far a lot more than 1/3rd or even half the time on. Here is an act log to see it.
* Both classes can provide combat advantage in Theory but this is what I see in actual dungeon runs. A GF can provide average of 64-67% of the hits to be flank damage (Combat advantage) while a cw is 88%-91%.
My point is not to build an argument or get (again) personal. If someone has a different opinion about the above numbers, please post so I can correct mine if need be or talk about it.
Also I think just comparing 2 classes is not really fair regardless of the outcome because inside a dungeon that we all really care for, as @gohaken said above, there are other factors in play that alter the outcome. My advice as always, play to have fun, do the best you can look out for good players and trust yourselves. If you feel that you do more damage with a specific class/player or that the runs is better in general , add them to friend list and invite to the runs you do. Its really that simple.
I think its been shown that Inspiring Leader does in fact stack, but regardless, whether or not an expertly built and played GF is always going to be slightly better in a perfect BiS meta group in this one dungeon than a similarly built/played MoF, the real question is if "/lfg LFG 4/5 T9G need 17k GF" will ever get that despite this subtle distinction both options are effectively equally viable given random elements of ping, chance and countless other variables
That seems to have been the original point of this now renamed thread, and it fits in with many other accounts from within these forums of many non-meta groups proving perfectly adequate at succeeding in T9G within reasonable times
@oria1 "4) We are ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those." Yes, because that's definitely how diminishing returns work...
"Condemned 15% Glow 17% Prop.Of.Doom 12.5 Sins 10% Bane 30% Total = 84.5%"
Sins from two clerics stack, so pre-module 13 it was 20%. Empowered prophecy of doom is 27.5%, although I am not sure anyone would actually do that without cheesing it pre-combat. This also isn't a 4 man party, so you forgot the debuffs from either the damage dealer or 4th buff class. Actually, speaking of common parties and stuff, last I checked great weapon fighters are one of the most common damage dealers. Without a guardian fighter to mark for them, great weapon fighters are forced to slot daring shout. This means that not only do great weapon fighters have to slot a non-optimal power with a master of flame present, but they actually decrease the effectiveness of the master of flame by bringing another 20% (personal) debuff.
So yeah... lets try this again with some more realistic numbers:
---With GF--- Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger Bane 30% Bananadin Mark 8% Guardian Fighter Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin 5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
-------------------- Total Debuffs 213.50% Diminished 164.75% Effectiveness 264.75% --------------------
---With MoF--- Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger Bane 30% Bananadin Ray of Enfeeblement 35% MoF Swath of Destruction20% MoF Combustive Action 24.00% MoF Bitter Cold 5% MoF
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin 5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
-------------------- Total Debuffs 279.50% Diminished 192.84% Effectiveness 292.84% --------------------
So "Effectiveness" is the number our damage gets multiplied by. So if we deal 1000 damage with that master of flame, we will deal 2,928.4 (1000) damage. Lets now factor in buffs.
Woah weird! Now guardian fighter looks better. Funny how diminishing returns work. I think the main point that can be taken away from this is that it heavily depends on your party, and is not a binary X is better than Y. However, since great weapon fighter is one of the most popular damage dealers, the synergy probably takes priority over this whole argument.
We are exploring here the damage increase from classes which has nothing to do with the Main Damage dealers RI which is the point of removing the 100% of RI in effectiveness. On top we compare the GF vs CW and you added a hr in the mix just to make the numbers as you see fit but its cool.
The reason we exclude the 100% is because it cant be credited to anyone as it comes from the main dps and not the gf or cw. Also I would like to add that some of the best times are also done by a tr (12m) and GF not just gwf.
I, on the other hand, just used the examples as they were posted here, if we are to alter those by adding companions and enchants and classes (I like btw how you added enchants to everyone else but the main debuffer), we also need to consider the uptime which is not 100% on the companions as they often die or get pushed and have to restart rotations with shield being a noticeable exception.
Now if we add a full arsenal to cw we get 87% and 12% plaguefire, and 20% shield +5% drow race and 15% artifact (that is not used often by others because.. ap) and we get???? 139% debuff.
Now you added a thorn ward there and that's not the right or we will run with 5 support and 1 dps. so that's out too The group would be 4 support and 1 gwf as you said. So do+ac+paladin+gwf and we examine gf vs mof. I will also humor you and add the rest of the list with 100% uptime but next time go check the death ratio of companions or the uptime of debuffs. -------------------------------------------------- Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion Bane 30% Bananadin sub total 95%
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter = 18% so far
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin 5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone = 80.5% or
193.5% or 154.4 diminished -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Lets see with mof Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion Bane 30% Bananadin = sub total 95%
U. frost 10.50% Bananadin T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle 4X Con/Rebel/Sell 40% everyone = sub total 58.5% For a total 153%
MoF all the above I wrote 139% = (includes companion enchants etc that why I removed one companion from the above list)
Total = 292.5% or 197.3% diminished. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So according to your way, With GF 154.1% +100% = 2.54 1.3 * 1.05*2.54 = 3.46
CW (btw the correct value as shown on my previous post for fury is about 1.2, I mean if you are allowed to change things... ) 197.5%+100%= (the cap is 100% +300% in case you are going to say debuffs cap at 300%) 1.2*2.975 = 3.57. Even if we do it with 1.15 (which is wrong) its 3.42 which 0.04% more. Now if we add the factor of damage that a mof will deal more than a tactician... (since you use the feat in tactician path)
Honestly both our "examples " are wrong and have way to many assumptions, but I just wanted to humor you and tried to see it your way....
yeah specially if we introduce elements (and even classes) and make 6 man runs in a 5 man dungeon or assume 100% uptimes on things that die or reset and have to do rotations etc...
A small error here its 2.6475 which will make the final 3.6... not that it matters.
Not going to go back and forth with the "numbers". I stated my opinion over and over. It's better to focus on making good players and NOT good classes. If you want to prove that one is good or the other is bad, I'm not going to keep on this and by all means if you like it please continue. Each class will bring something and that's the truth.
I just wanted to show that I think counting RI in debuffs, is not right as stated by many above me.
If I'm wrong, ignore my comment and life goes on.. Mea culpa.
@oria1 "We are exploring here the damage increase from classes which has nothing to do with the Main Damage dealers RI which is the point of removing the 100% of RI in effectiveness." Okay, sure I can take that angle, but you did it wrong. You have to remove all of the DPS from the party as well, since it cannot be credited to the debuffer.
GF - 0% MoF - 0%
Okay, sarcasm over. You cannot just ignore a part of the damage equation because it doesn't belong to one of the debuffers, that's just not how it works. To find the effectiveness of the two debuffers you must include all of the debuffs with one party and all the debuffs with another party. There is no other way to do this due to how the diminishing returns work and relative increase work.
"Also I would like to add that some of the best times are also done by a tr (12m) and GF not just gwf. I, on the other hand, just used the examples as they were posted here" I am including my closest idea of the given example, since if you bring a guardian fighter buff-bot, you likely won't bring a second guardian fighter and rogues have a non-zero debuff repertoire, which could have made master of flame look worse. Either way, you must include the debuffs of the primary damage dealer, how ever big they might be.
"if we are to alter those by adding companions and enchants and classes ... we also need to consider the uptime which is not 100% on the companions as they often die or get pushed and have to restart rotations with shield being a noticeable exception." Okay, I didn't "alter" it to include those things. Those things are implied, since they alter the effectiveness of debuffs. You cannot simply exclude them. If we exclude them completely it inflates the master of flame. Assuming we are fighting a training dummy (dumb example but whatever), the companions have 100% up-time, and assuming a burn group, most of the enchants have a 100% up-time. Yes, I didn't include up-time and it is important, but I can leave that to you once you figure out how to do the rest of the equation properly.
"(I like btw how you added enchants to everyone else but the main debuffer)" I also excluded the feytouched of the HR, since it doesn't add a debuff. I had originally included a U. Dread on the master of flame and guardian fighter, but decided that was impractical, since a guardian fighter that is running a buff-bot setup with a U. Dread should have the resources for a DPS loadout. Additionally, adding in another debuff enchant to both sides of the group only makes the master of flame worse, since most of their benefit is from debuffs.
I also just noticed that I messed up on the U. Plaguefire, which should be 12% like you said. This doesn't help the master of flame though.
"and 20% shield +5% drow race and 15% artifact (that is not used often by others because.. ap) " That's fine as long as you give those bonuses (okay maybe not the drow proc) to the buff-bot guardian fighter as well. This is a buff-bot guardian fighter we are talking about here, not a damage dealer, since if it were a damage dealer it simply auto-wins the entire discussion.
"Now you added a thorn ward there and that's not the right or we will run with 5 support and 1 dps. so that's out too The group would be 4 support and 1 gwf as you said. So do+ac+paladin+gwf and we examine gf vs mof." Sure lets compare master of flame in their most unfavorable party composition versus the guardian fighter buff-bot. You are probably going to try calling bluff on this one, but great weapon fighters must slot daring shout in the composition without the guardian fighter, or they suffer the loss of a 15% self buff.
"197.5%+100%= (the cap is 100% +300% in case you are going to say debuffs cap at 300%)" There is no hard cap anymore. The "cap" is implemented through the diminishing returns equation, which will never exceed 300% debuff value no matter how big a debuff pool you shove into it. There is no need to calculate it as an additional step.
Now lets do this comparison with all of the variables again: ---(look in second post)---
Note the following factors: 1. Uptimes are not considered for any effect except Chaotic Fury (which is now correctly 20%) 2. IBS is not used in the master of flame party, since the great weapon fighter would lose of a 15% personal damage buff 3. This is calculated for the great weapon fighter, which means we need another equation for each of the other members 4. If the master of flame is assumed to own a U. Plaguefire, then the buff-bot guardian fighter should own a U. Dread. 5. If the master of flame owns a U. Plaguefire, the bananadin should switch to his totally cheap U. Dread or it would reduce the debuffs of his party. Hint: this helps the master of flame.
The higher-end we keep making this party, the less sense master of flame is making. I cannot stress enough how much damage isn't listed on this comparison due to the lack of IBS in the master of flame's party. If you had chosen any other class it would have maybe stood a chance. But pretty much, if everyone in the group is allowed to bring as much gear/items/random nonsense, the master of flame will always lose. As you get into lower-end groups the master of flame starts becoming high tier depending on just how low you go.
"197.5%+100%= (the cap is 100% +300% in case you are going to say debuffs cap at 300%)" There is no hard cap anymore. The "cap" is implemented through the diminishing returns equation, which will never exceed 300% debuff value no matter how big a debuff pool you shove into it. There is no need to calculate it as an additional step."
There is a cap and that's 300% you cant go 300.00000001%. as the word cap means "to put a limit..: That's the limit of the debuffs. Diminish returns means you get less of a value as you get closer to that limit. The reason I mentioned that is because with a good team we managed to have effectiveness in act up to 324% and a peak of 340% (without sw). and lots of people thought it was the undiminished value.
Now I didn't mean our dps but this is the case. If you examine on the dps side they will get the 100% even if they are alone, its not something WE offer and as such you can't really consider it since the question in general what we offer as cw or gf. -----------------------------------------
4x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
Its 40%
------------------------------------------ T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion U. Plaguefire 12.00% Bananadin U. Dread 10% Guardian Fighter
Why 2 dreads, they dont stack and even if they do its not for the full value and they shouldn't in the 1st place but then one can also make frost / bronze multi stack and go to very high levels.... so -8 here so far -18%
Lets be honest here... hardly any gf uses shield... or debuff artifact and if they do they use it for canceling... (another exploit?) Mof doesn't need canceling.
So lets do this by the book or how "normal" people run.
---GF, GWF, DC, DC, OP--- Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion Weapon Master Strike 30% Great Weapon Fighter Bane 30% Bananadin Mark 8% Guardian Fighter Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion U. Plaguefire 12.00% Bananadin U. Dread 10% Guardian Fighter
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
-------------------- Total Debuffs 227.00% Diminished 171.2% Effectiveness 271.2% --------------------
So you wrote this: 2.8930 (GF party effectiveness) * 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (leader) = 3.948945 While it should have been actually 282.5 cause of 1 extra companion and so 3.856125
while its this 2.71*1.3*1.05 = 3.69915
MoF 3.1784 * 1.2 = 3.81408 (I just copy paste that from you to be smart :P ) but since you have the same errors lets adjust it
343% total = 213.06%+100% effectiveness = 313.06% *1.2 = 3.75
What I removed was the trans dread and 10% from one companion.
If I was you I would worry about the SW since now it can buff and debuff more than a GF. Also I will say again... your math have an error but I will let you find it (hint you need a +1 somewhere in there..)
Since we add everything else why don't we add the personal damage too. Which in MoF case reduces the run by a bit. Then again your ITF reduces the run too....
See my point? Both classes have things to offer.
If you are willing to say a class is better or worse based on a 6% difference which in the actual run is nothing (when you supposed to do 1 million hits you will do 1.06m...).
Now we did it your way, lets see the one I think it better represents the situation. (Spreadsheet makes things more readable.
The companions are fixed at 50% as you can see at down right corner and please correct me if I'm, wrong on my values.
AGAIN: I will say this... GF is an excellent class, so is a CW. Lets focus on promoting better play styles, gaming and team work and not sit here and talk about a 6% more or less.....
Oria and designedbyrg: Both you take that GF will have Inspiring leader,for granted.
You should not: IL is deep into tact tree.Only a tact can reach it.And by experience, majority ,the end game GFs are DPS Conqs,or Hybrid/tank Conqs ,and are not tacts. None of them has it.
However if you take a tact that has it,that GF will do roughly -50% damage of a similar geared conq. So....universally and looking in big picture,for the question and point that was made into this thread,maybe CW is better.(with exceptions as always)
Oria and designedbyrg: Both you take that GF will have Inspiring leader,for granted.
You should not: IL is deep into tact tree.Only a tact can reach it.And by experience, majority ,the end game GFs are DPS Conqs,or Hybrid/tank Conqs ,and are not tacts. None of them has it.
However if you take a tact that has it,that GF will do roughly -50% damage of a similar geared conq. So....universally and looking in big picture,for the question and point that was made into this thread,maybe CW is better.(with exceptions as always)
I agree with you and I said it too, (I think) as I mentioned "then lets add the damage of mof vs tact". I just added it so people don't think that I'm "trying to alter things". TBH even as a buff tact a GF is always a good option to take. I just don't like it when people are "absolute" and think if they take a mof or a GF (depending on side), the party will be bad while the truth is.. it will be about the same assuming the player knows what it does.
Now about the majority of GF, I've seen different but I assume our circle is always "smaller" then the entire game so it is possible to have different views and perspectives.
I don't take anything for granted.. to be honest. Not even that a CW will use RoE on tab...
@hypervoreian I believe the assumption was that it had to be a comparison between a tactician and a master of flame, since a conqueror with decent gear would obliterate the master of flame simply by dealing more damage than the primary damage dealer.
It was never an absolute X is better than Y because the master of flame has too many newb helping powers and deals directly with a mechanic with built in diminishing returns. The more debuffs a group has, the weaker a master of flame is, the less crit a group has, the stronger a master of flame is. An "average" group probably benefits more from the master of flame, while any burn group probably can't find any use for them.
In my experience, guardian fighters are generally more useful than master of flame wizards, just because they are easier to play and understand. If a master of flame isn't using the full range of debuffs, explaining it takes like 30 minutes. If a guardian fighter isn't using into the fray, I can just say "slot into the fray please". This is similar to why great weapon fighters are usually known as the best damage dealer and trickster rogues one of the worst. It's simply because great weapon fighters are easy to play, while rogues take very specific gear and dynamic rotations with a specific party comp to even deal non-negative damage.
@"gohaken#5114" You are mixing up two of my statements. In a burn group, a guardian fighter wins by shear damage alone. This has been proven time and time again that guardian fighter is #1 damage dealer for burn groups due to their ability to just completely skip boss phases. This is one statement.
Now down in an average or newbie group where on paper the master of flame should win, people would still prefer a guardian fighter, since there is a higher chance a newbie or average guardian fighter knows how to press two buttons in each fight than a master of flame knows how to play his character properly. This is a separate, second statement.
"the math to back it up" It didn't help his case any in my opinion when he tried to remove parts of the damage equation that cannot be removed for comparison.
"AND some video evidence, AND other people who had made it work for them" Speed runners don't count?
"Unless something proves consistent in real-world (or game-world in our case) testing, then all the modeling in the world isn't going to make it "The Truth"." Yes, it would likely be best to just assume and guess, since there is no way to truly remove all of the factors down to "The Truth"
"I would still like to do an organized Pepsi challenge." If you can figure out how to remove all of the random elements, player skill, and gear differences from the challenge, I would like to see it as well. Currently the top two speed runs I have seen contain guardian fighters, and zero control wizards, so that might indicate something.
EDIT - As an extra side-note. Being requested in end-game groups doesn't make something good. I have seen requests for templocks in a group with only one cleric and one slot left. So 18% buffs and 35% debuffs from a templock are greater than 93% buffs and 37% debuffs from a divine oracle? Not likely.
EDIT2 - Actually there is a side note. If a player is far better geared/skilled/optimized than the players they play with, their class gets more credit than normal. I have experienced this first hand on my cleric, which has been labeled as the primary damage dealer in many groups, simply because my gear and optimization so vastly exceeds that of the players I play with.
...Because a mof using RoE on tab and doing a daily is harder to play.... Mof is one of the easiest classes to play. Its Neverwinter... we all use 3 skills.... 4 if you are cw. Its not rocket science. Add some recharge speed and AP gain, have RoE on tab and you have all the debuffs up near or at 100% of the time....
the only real smart you need to do is WHEN to use things.
Please after all that (wrong) number theory stop trying to to tell people what is easy to play. If they like it they will find it easy anyway. .
you keep seeing the "my case, your case" I'm not trying to back anything. I'm not removing a part of the damage equation... I'm talking about the part we contribute. Do either gf or cw contribute to the player having 100% RI?
"if you can figure out how to remove all of the random elements, player skill, and gear differences " Just read this again... you introduce everything in your example (even a 6th person) and the you worry about things that are practically irrelevant to this... player skill to use itf?? or RoE in tab??? Gear differences??? Any gears that do buff or debuff for the team? Want to include random lag in there too?
"Speed runners don't count?" Yes they do count... are all the runs speed runs?? Is every single run a 10m run? have you done a 10 m run? My best run was 14m... It not 11 but its not bad either. Not everyone likes to make youtube videos for temporary fame.
Let me put it this way. Since there aren't many DPS GF, if a group cant find one, you think it will be bad to get either a tact GF or a MoF CW. Will the run go THAT much slower? Its either dps GF or nothing?? I mean seriously....
Those are just 2 examples... we can go back and forth but that has no end.
@oria1 "Mof is one of the easiest classes to play. Its Neverwinter... we all use 3 skills.... 4 if you are cw. Its not rocket science. Add some recharge speed and AP gain, have RoE on tab and you have all the debuffs up near or at 100% of the time...." To you and I this may seem simple, but I run into players all the time who seem to have created their character using a random number generator. Guardians without into the fray, wizards using the flying meatball (i'm making a joke, I know the power is called Shard of Endless Avalanche) and Imprisonment etc. I never underestimate the ability of a player to completely ruin their own classes potential, because they can and will at every single chance they get.
"Just read this again... you introduce everything in your example (even a 6th person) and the you worry about things that are practically irrelevant to this... player skill to use itf?? or RoE in tab???" He said to do a pepsi challenge and have actual groups run content. I was not talking about our paper simulations. I never added a 6th person. I simply left thorn ward on a DPS ranger without thinking about it properly. This would require robotic levels of precision and thousands of attempts to remove the random factors involved, which is what people do when speed running, they only show their best result obviously. Additionally, there are many players who understand and play their class better than pretty much everyone else. Can you truly have an equal test in a live environment? Can all of the random elements truly be removed?
"I'm talking about the part we contribute. Do either gf or cw contribute to the player having 100% RI? " If you want to calculate damage that way, both classes cannot count any of the damage dealt by their team members, so both benefit the party by 0%. You cannot remove that 100% without altering the relative increase of the class. It is correct as long as we include it on both sides. We can only remove things from the equation that do not alter the equation when removed from both sides, such as the multiplier buffs provided by a cleric.
"Since there aren't many DPS GF, if a group cant find one, you think it will be bad to get either a tact GF or a MoF CW. Will the run go THAT much slower? Its weither dps GF or nothing?? I mean seriously...." I personally take whatever class wants to join the group, since we will likely finish before the idiots who waited 2 hours for a 17k IL conqueror guardian. I will run with anybody, and to be honest, the difference between the two was lower than I had originally expected, but if someone tries to claim that a master of flame is better in a best in slot group than a guardian fighter (assuming there isn't already a guardian fighter in the group), I still would like to see the numbers that back that claim up.
Honestly, it looks like master of flame is probably best in every group I run with when compared to a buff-bot guardian, but yeah it's close enough that I probably wouldn't even care which one was coming along.
Sure, I didn't include up-times, sure I didn't include every factor, but there are so many factors that I would honestly like to see someone who creates a formula for all of them.
"I will stop here this is getting pointless." Wait... there was a point originally?
"if you want to calculate damage that way, both classes cannot count any of the damage dealt by their team members..."
The question my friend was, what we (cw or gf) contribute with our buffs and debuffs... to the main damage dealer who will have 100% effectiveness even without us... As you see in my example I assume a hit of 100k that has 100% RI ... from that point on is what each class offers.. it's really that simple. Either way... I agree, we (and whoever reads this) got our conclusions hopefully .
"Guardians without into the fray, wizards using the flying meatball " Whats wrong with meatball :P joking and I will agree with that and that was my main point since the beginning... we should all focus on making/helping players and not classes... I'm a cw... but when I will play any other class I will gladly choose a good gf over a bad cw and vice versa... and the same goes for every other class...
"Wait... there was a point originally?" You got me there :P
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
"4) We are ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those."
Yes, because that's definitely how diminishing returns work...
"Condemned 15%
Glow 17%
Prop.Of.Doom 12.5
Sins 10%
Bane 30%
Total = 84.5%"
Sins from two clerics stack, so pre-module 13 it was 20%. Empowered prophecy of doom is 27.5%, although I am not sure anyone would actually do that without cheesing it pre-combat. This also isn't a 4 man party, so you forgot the debuffs from either the damage dealer or 4th buff class. Actually, speaking of common parties and stuff, last I checked great weapon fighters are one of the most common damage dealers. Without a guardian fighter to mark for them, great weapon fighters are forced to slot daring shout. This means that not only do great weapon fighters have to slot a non-optimal power with a master of flame present, but they actually decrease the effectiveness of the master of flame by bringing another 20% (personal) debuff.
So yeah... lets try this again with some more realistic numbers:
---With GF---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger
Bane 30% Bananadin
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter
Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
--------------------
Total Debuffs 213.50%
Diminished 164.75%
Effectiveness 264.75%
--------------------
---With MoF---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger
Bane 30% Bananadin
Ray of Enfeeblement 35% MoF
Swath of Destruction20% MoF
Combustive Action 24.00% MoF
Bitter Cold 5% MoF
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
--------------------
Total Debuffs 279.50%
Diminished 192.84%
Effectiveness 292.84%
--------------------
So "Effectiveness" is the number our damage gets multiplied by. So if we deal 1000 damage with that master of flame, we will deal 2,928.4 (1000) damage. Lets now factor in buffs.
Woah weird! Now guardian fighter looks better. Funny how diminishing returns work. I think the main point that can be taken away from this is that it heavily depends on your party, and is not a binary X is better than Y. However, since great weapon fighter is one of the most popular damage dealers, the synergy probably takes priority over this whole argument.
I play gwf and i can live without the intomitable strike and burn in non gf party for example and hati and orcus just with att will.( 12m damage per sec!).
* Why are people so stuck on 2 DC's? Looking at the spreadsheets above, you could just as easily ditch one of the DCs for a MoF and get more or less the same result. The healing from two DCs is not really needed(and MoF heals too), so why not just grab a MoF rather than waiting forever for that 2nd(and often low IL) DC to pop up? MoFs usually also contribute more dps than a DC.
* Is it badly specced MoFs that has ruined the reputation of MoF? It is very easy to play a MoF without bringing the expected debuffs. Most CWs are basically Thaum dps specced and if they just make a MoF to get into Tong it could easily be set up badly without understanding the MoF role and mechanisms.
MoF checklist(ask your MoF about this.. if he does not answer properly, kick him): * Renegade tree with cap feat * SOD and CA loaded as class feats (which kills personal dps btw) These feats are the Smolder-based debuffs. * How does the MoF apply Smolder? The most universal way should be Fan the Flames on Tab, but that sacrifices some RoE debuff. Alternatively Smolder can be applied from dailies but that can be less usable on trash and harder to keep up 100% on bosses since recharging dailies takes some time. Smolder fades after 6 secs if not refreshed by Chill.
For the daily Tong farmrun it seems to me this urge for 2 DCs seems a bit overdone - if you sacrifice 10% damage and get 1 minute longer runtime.. does it really matter? You spend that 1 minute looking for the extra DC anyways. I have seen quite fast and successful OP/DC/MoF/GF/GWF runs.
Comments
It's what I originally signed up for (we also used to be the only pure tanking class, once upon a time), but these days I have to settle for a buffbot, it seems.
The fact that Nas Sri seems to have mechanics specifically designed to screw over GF tanks doesn't really help either.
When mod 13 hits with the DC nerfs, the preferred group will be OP, DC, MoF, GF and GWF?
AC DC/DO DC/OP/DPS GF/(insert DPS class here, preferrably non useless HR)
For the new trial, I honestly expect a lot of teams attempting to get both GF and MoF anyways since 10 players gives you a lot of room for flexibility.
It's okay, CW's and a few other classes got pretty much left out this mod and DC overworked overtime. It's okay if GF buff or GF dps beats CW mof in effectiveness in tong, it just means the devs need to give CW mof renegade a lil luv'n.
One thing I'm not sure of though, is the debuffs from swath and ca, are a reduction to affected target's dr, or a flat increase to damage taken like it's worded? It's kind of an important question, cuz if it's a reduction to ri, it's a pretty useless debuff at this point unless party's ri is not maxed.
The reason why two DCs in a Tong team is not wanted by Cryptic is that there generally is a DC shortage in game, and if we spend two DCs on each Tong run the number of possible Tong runs get halved. And that again means that a lot of slightly less efficient classes get left out. Moving away from 2-DC Tong runs will be a huge blessing for the game overall.
Thank you for the replies. That is definitely counter intuitive. I'll need to get act set up to test how effective mof renegade debuffs actually are. I'm not a math master, but I'm not completely incompetent in the area either. It would be good for me to understand how it all actually works "under the hood" instead of blindly applying debuffs. Maybe there is thread around that can explain it a bit more in depth.
http://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics/debuff
But start from the top
http://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics/damage
I also don't understand the mentality in those that think you need to take out the fun in a class to ensure a pecking order, is there really such a complete lack of imagination that the only solution is a single word, nerf.
The Devs know how to implement these changes and the players know what they like most about the class and what they like least about the class, there needs to be a conversation between the two in order to find the right balance. Obviously the last one they had wasn't the only one they needed.
So to summarise my thoughts, I don't know anything about DC's, but when it comes to rebalancing a class, nerf should be the absolute, very last, nuclear option.
EDIT: Brain HAMSTER, just swap DC with MoF/GF or whatever your prefered class is.
Calculating effectiveness to dps is really wrong as it includes 2 values. 0-100% is the Resistance Ignored and above 100% it's the debuffs.
So to calculate a cw debuff to damage we need to do effectiveness%-100%, for example at 250% effectiveness the debuff is 150%.
Now I don't know how a paladin and 2 dc can have 100% debuff, from what I see they have about 80%. Apologies if I'm wrong and please correct me.
Condemned 15%
Glow 17%
Prop.Of.Doom 12.5
Sins 10%
Bane 30%
Total = 84.5%
Cw has actually 35+20+24+5+3 = 87%
Now we will calculate the damage increase based on the debuff alone and not the effectiveness and we get the following (as you can see diminishing returns are applied)
Now lets try again.
Assume debuff is at 84% before adding either class.
2) GF has 18% debuffs.
3) CW has 87%
4) We are ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those.
5) We are ignoring the possibility that Inspiring Leader stacks.
6) Both classes provide Combat Advantage, so ignoring that.
7) Ignoring crit+arp buffs because you don't assume people are built badly in theoretical situations.
GF: 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (Inspiring Leader) * 1.06678 (DpS increase from debuffs) = 1.4561547
CW 1.15 (Chaotic Fury) * 1.35 (DpS increase from debuffs) = 1.5525 Just going by the above assumptions which we can do more in a dungeon assuming a MoF is build right.
If we adjust for about 20% (2/3rds of the time up) damage from fury we actually have 1.2 *1.35 = 1.62 buff potential.
There are few more things to add like
* We often neglect a cw can do damage too, not 3 griffon damage for sure but still personally I'm never less than 450m as a second dps and my top was 600m in less than 30m runs. On the other hand its more likely to see a cw doing dps rather than a gf at least on how the server is now (meaning there are very few dps GF).
* Chaotic fury is by far a lot more than 1/3rd or even half the time on. Here is an act log to see it.
* Both classes can provide combat advantage in Theory but this is what I see in actual dungeon runs. A GF can provide average of 64-67% of the hits to be flank damage (Combat advantage) while a cw is 88%-91%.
My point is not to build an argument or get (again) personal. If someone has a different opinion about the above numbers, please post so I can correct mine if need be or talk about it.
Also I think just comparing 2 classes is not really fair regardless of the outcome because inside a dungeon that we all really care for, as @gohaken said above, there are other factors in play that alter the outcome. My advice as always, play to have fun, do the best you can look out for good players and trust yourselves. If you feel that you do more damage with a specific class/player or that the runs is better in general , add them to friend list and invite to the runs you do. Its really that simple.
That seems to have been the original point of this now renamed thread, and it fits in with many other accounts from within these forums of many non-meta groups proving perfectly adequate at succeeding in T9G within reasonable times
"4) We are ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those."
Yes, because that's definitely how diminishing returns work...
"Condemned 15%
Glow 17%
Prop.Of.Doom 12.5
Sins 10%
Bane 30%
Total = 84.5%"
Sins from two clerics stack, so pre-module 13 it was 20%. Empowered prophecy of doom is 27.5%, although I am not sure anyone would actually do that without cheesing it pre-combat. This also isn't a 4 man party, so you forgot the debuffs from either the damage dealer or 4th buff class. Actually, speaking of common parties and stuff, last I checked great weapon fighters are one of the most common damage dealers. Without a guardian fighter to mark for them, great weapon fighters are forced to slot daring shout. This means that not only do great weapon fighters have to slot a non-optimal power with a master of flame present, but they actually decrease the effectiveness of the master of flame by bringing another 20% (personal) debuff.
So yeah... lets try this again with some more realistic numbers:
---With GF---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger
Bane 30% Bananadin
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter
Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
--------------------
Total Debuffs 213.50%
Diminished 164.75%
Effectiveness 264.75%
--------------------
---With MoF---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Thorn Ward 20% Hunter Ranger
Bane 30% Bananadin
Ray of Enfeeblement 35% MoF
Swath of Destruction20% MoF
Combustive Action 24.00% MoF
Bitter Cold 5% MoF
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
--------------------
Total Debuffs 279.50%
Diminished 192.84%
Effectiveness 292.84%
--------------------
So "Effectiveness" is the number our damage gets multiplied by. So if we deal 1000 damage with that master of flame, we will deal 2,928.4 (1000) damage. Lets now factor in buffs.
------------------------------------------------------------
2.6575 (GF party effectiveness) * 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (leader) = 3.6274875
2.9284 (MoF party effectiveness) * 1.15 (fury) = 3.36766
------------------------------------------------------------
Woah weird! Now guardian fighter looks better. Funny how diminishing returns work. I think the main point that can be taken away from this is that it heavily depends on your party, and is not a binary X is better than Y. However, since great weapon fighter is one of the most popular damage dealers, the synergy probably takes priority over this whole argument.
Ok, where to start....
We are exploring here the damage increase from classes which has nothing to do with the Main Damage dealers RI which is the point of removing the 100% of RI in effectiveness. On top we compare the GF vs CW and you added a hr in the mix just to make the numbers as you see fit but its cool.
The reason we exclude the 100% is because it cant be credited to anyone as it comes from the main dps and not the gf or cw. Also I would like to add that some of the best times are also done by a tr (12m) and GF not just gwf.
I, on the other hand, just used the examples as they were posted here, if we are to alter those by adding companions and enchants and classes (I like btw how you added enchants to everyone else but the main debuffer), we also need to consider the uptime which is not 100% on the companions as they often die or get pushed and have to restart rotations with shield being a noticeable exception.
Now if we add a full arsenal to cw we get 87% and 12% plaguefire, and 20% shield +5% drow race and 15% artifact (that is not used often by others because.. ap) and we get???? 139% debuff.
Now you added a thorn ward there and that's not the right or we will run with 5 support and 1 dps. so that's out too The group would be 4 support and 1 gwf as you said. So do+ac+paladin+gwf and we examine gf vs mof. I will also humor you and add the rest of the list with 100% uptime but next time go check the death ratio of companions or the uptime of debuffs.
--------------------------------------------------
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Bane 30% Bananadin sub total 95%
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter
Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter = 18% so far
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 10.50% Bananadin
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone = 80.5% or
193.5% or 154.4 diminished
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Lets see with mof
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Bane 30% Bananadin = sub total 95%
U. frost 10.50% Bananadin
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
4X Con/Rebel/Sell 40% everyone = sub total 58.5%
For a total 153%
MoF all the above I wrote 139% = (includes companion enchants etc that why I removed one companion from the above list)
Total = 292.5% or 197.3% diminished.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So according to your way,
With GF
154.1% +100% = 2.54
1.3 * 1.05*2.54 = 3.46
CW (btw the correct value as shown on my previous post for fury is about 1.2, I mean if you are allowed to change things... )
197.5%+100%= (the cap is 100% +300% in case you are going to say debuffs cap at 300%)
1.2*2.975 = 3.57. Even if we do it with 1.15 (which is wrong) its 3.42 which 0.04% more.
Now if we add the factor of damage that a mof will deal more than a tactician... (since you use the feat in tactician path)
Honestly both our "examples " are wrong and have way to many assumptions, but I just wanted to humor you and tried to see it your way....
yeah specially if we introduce elements (and even classes) and make 6 man runs in a 5 man dungeon or assume 100% uptimes on things that die or reset and have to do rotations etc... A small error here its 2.6475 which will make the final 3.6... not that it matters.
Not going to go back and forth with the "numbers". I stated my opinion over and over. It's better to focus on making good players and NOT good classes. If you want to prove that one is good or the other is bad, I'm not going to keep on this and by all means if you like it please continue. Each class will bring something and that's the truth.
I just wanted to show that I think counting RI in debuffs, is not right as stated by many above me.
If I'm wrong, ignore my comment and life goes on.. Mea culpa.
"We are exploring here the damage increase from classes which has nothing to do with the Main Damage dealers RI which is the point of removing the 100% of RI in effectiveness."
Okay, sure I can take that angle, but you did it wrong. You have to remove all of the DPS from the party as well, since it cannot be credited to the debuffer.
GF - 0%
MoF - 0%
Okay, sarcasm over. You cannot just ignore a part of the damage equation because it doesn't belong to one of the debuffers, that's just not how it works. To find the effectiveness of the two debuffers you must include all of the debuffs with one party and all the debuffs with another party. There is no other way to do this due to how the diminishing returns work and relative increase work.
"Also I would like to add that some of the best times are also done by a tr (12m) and GF not just gwf. I, on the other hand, just used the examples as they were posted here"
I am including my closest idea of the given example, since if you bring a guardian fighter buff-bot, you likely won't bring a second guardian fighter and rogues have a non-zero debuff repertoire, which could have made master of flame look worse. Either way, you must include the debuffs of the primary damage dealer, how ever big they might be.
"if we are to alter those by adding companions and enchants and classes ... we also need to consider the uptime which is not 100% on the companions as they often die or get pushed and have to restart rotations with shield being a noticeable exception."
Okay, I didn't "alter" it to include those things. Those things are implied, since they alter the effectiveness of debuffs. You cannot simply exclude them. If we exclude them completely it inflates the master of flame. Assuming we are fighting a training dummy (dumb example but whatever), the companions have 100% up-time, and assuming a burn group, most of the enchants have a 100% up-time. Yes, I didn't include up-time and it is important, but I can leave that to you once you figure out how to do the rest of the equation properly.
"(I like btw how you added enchants to everyone else but the main debuffer)"
I also excluded the feytouched of the HR, since it doesn't add a debuff. I had originally included a U. Dread on the master of flame and guardian fighter, but decided that was impractical, since a guardian fighter that is running a buff-bot setup with a U. Dread should have the resources for a DPS loadout. Additionally, adding in another debuff enchant to both sides of the group only makes the master of flame worse, since most of their benefit is from debuffs.
I also just noticed that I messed up on the U. Plaguefire, which should be 12% like you said. This doesn't help the master of flame though.
"and 20% shield +5% drow race and 15% artifact (that is not used often by others because.. ap) "
That's fine as long as you give those bonuses (okay maybe not the drow proc) to the buff-bot guardian fighter as well. This is a buff-bot guardian fighter we are talking about here, not a damage dealer, since if it were a damage dealer it simply auto-wins the entire discussion.
"Now you added a thorn ward there and that's not the right or we will run with 5 support and 1 dps. so that's out too The group would be 4 support and 1 gwf as you said. So do+ac+paladin+gwf and we examine gf vs mof."
Sure lets compare master of flame in their most unfavorable party composition versus the guardian fighter buff-bot. You are probably going to try calling bluff on this one, but great weapon fighters must slot daring shout in the composition without the guardian fighter, or they suffer the loss of a 15% self buff.
"197.5%+100%= (the cap is 100% +300% in case you are going to say debuffs cap at 300%)"
There is no hard cap anymore. The "cap" is implemented through the diminishing returns equation, which will never exceed 300% debuff value no matter how big a debuff pool you shove into it. There is no need to calculate it as an additional step.
Now lets do this comparison with all of the variables again:
---(look in second post)---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Weapon Master Strike 30% Great Weapon Fighter
Bane 30% Bananadin
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter
Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 12.00% Bananadin
U. Dread 10% Guardian Fighter
4x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
1x Shield 20% Guardian Fighter
Debuff artifact 15% Guardian Fighter
--------------------
Total Debuffs 270.00%
Diminished 189.30%
Effectiveness 289.30%
--------------------
---MoF, GWF, DC, DC, OP---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Weapon Master Strike 30% Great Weapon Fighter
Daring Shout 20% Great Weapon Fighter
Bane 30% Bananadin
Ray of Enfeeblement 35% MoF
Swath of Destruction 20% MoF
Combustive Action 24.00% MoF
Bitter Cold 5% MoF
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 12.00% MoF
U. Dread 10% Bananadin
4x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
1x Shield 20% MoF
Debuff artifact 15% MoF
Drow 5% MoF
--------------------
Total Debuffs 361.00%
Diminished 217.84%
Effectiveness 317.84%
--------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
2.8930 (GF party effectiveness) * 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (leader) = 3.948945
3.1784 (MoF party effectiveness) * 1.2 (fury) = 3.81408
------------------------------------------------------------
Note the following factors:
1. Uptimes are not considered for any effect except Chaotic Fury (which is now correctly 20%)
2. IBS is not used in the master of flame party, since the great weapon fighter would lose of a 15% personal damage buff
3. This is calculated for the great weapon fighter, which means we need another equation for each of the other members
4. If the master of flame is assumed to own a U. Plaguefire, then the buff-bot guardian fighter should own a U. Dread.
5. If the master of flame owns a U. Plaguefire, the bananadin should switch to his totally cheap U. Dread or it would reduce the debuffs of his party. Hint: this helps the master of flame.
The higher-end we keep making this party, the less sense master of flame is making. I cannot stress enough how much damage isn't listed on this comparison due to the lack of IBS in the master of flame's party. If you had chosen any other class it would have maybe stood a chance. But pretty much, if everyone in the group is allowed to bring as much gear/items/random nonsense, the master of flame will always lose. As you get into lower-end groups the master of flame starts becoming high tier depending on just how low you go.
There is no hard cap anymore. The "cap" is implemented through the diminishing returns equation, which will never exceed 300% debuff value no matter how big a debuff pool you shove into it. There is no need to calculate it as an additional step."
There is a cap and that's 300% you cant go 300.00000001%. as the word cap means "to put a limit..: That's the limit of the debuffs. Diminish returns means you get less of a value as you get closer to that limit. The reason I mentioned that is because with a good team we managed to have effectiveness in act up to 324% and a peak of 340% (without sw). and lots of people thought it was the undiminished value.
-----------------------------------------
GF - 0%
MoF - 0%
Now I didn't mean our dps but this is the case. If you examine on the dps side they will get the 100% even if they are alone, its not something WE offer and as such you can't really consider it since the question in general what we offer as cw or gf.
-----------------------------------------
4x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
Its 40%
------------------------------------------
T. Dread 8% Divine Oracle
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 12.00% Bananadin
U. Dread 10% Guardian Fighter
Why 2 dreads, they dont stack and even if they do its not for the full value and they shouldn't in the 1st place but then one can also make frost / bronze multi stack and go to very high levels.... so -8 here so far -18%
Lets be honest here... hardly any gf uses shield... or debuff artifact and if they do they use it for canceling... (another exploit?)
Mof doesn't need canceling.
So lets do this by the book or how "normal" people run.
---GF, GWF, DC, DC, OP---
Prophecy of Doom 12.50% Divine Oracle
Bear Your Sins 10% Divine Oracle
Divine Glow 17.50% Anointed Champion
Bear Your Sins 10% Anointed Champion
Condemning Gaze 15% Anointed Champion
Weapon Master Strike 30% Great Weapon Fighter
Bane 30% Bananadin
Mark 8% Guardian Fighter
Crushing Pin 10% Guardian Fighter
U. Frost 12% Anointed Champion
U. Plaguefire 12.00% Bananadin
U. Dread 10% Guardian Fighter
5x Con/Rebel/Sell 50% Everyone
--------------------
Total Debuffs 227.00%
Diminished 171.2%
Effectiveness 271.2%
--------------------
So you wrote this:
2.8930 (GF party effectiveness) * 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (leader) = 3.948945
While it should have been actually
282.5 cause of 1 extra companion and so 3.856125
while its this
2.71*1.3*1.05 = 3.69915
MoF
3.1784 * 1.2 = 3.81408 (I just copy paste that from you to be smart :P ) but since you have the same errors lets adjust it
343% total = 213.06%+100% effectiveness = 313.06% *1.2 = 3.75
What I removed was the trans dread and 10% from one companion.
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If I was you I would worry about the SW since now it can buff and debuff more than a GF.
Also I will say again... your math have an error but I will let you find it (hint you need a +1 somewhere in there..)
Since we add everything else why don't we add the personal damage too. Which in MoF case reduces the run by a bit. Then again your ITF reduces the run too....
See my point? Both classes have things to offer.
If you are willing to say a class is better or worse based on a 6% difference which in the actual run is nothing (when you supposed to do 1 million hits you will do 1.06m...).
Now we did it your way, lets see the one I think it better represents the situation. (Spreadsheet makes things more readable.
The companions are fixed at 50% as you can see at down right corner and please correct me if I'm, wrong on my values.
AGAIN: I will say this... GF is an excellent class, so is a CW. Lets focus on promoting better play styles, gaming and team work and not sit here and talk about a 6% more or less.....
Thank you for your time and your opinions.
Both you take that GF will have Inspiring leader,for granted.
You should not:
IL is deep into tact tree.Only a tact can reach it.And by experience, majority ,the end game GFs are DPS Conqs,or Hybrid/tank Conqs ,and are not tacts.
None of them has it.
However if you take a tact that has it,that GF will do roughly -50% damage of a similar geared conq.
So....universally and looking in big picture,for the question and point that was made into this thread,maybe CW is better.(with exceptions as always)
Now about the majority of GF, I've seen different but I assume our circle is always "smaller" then the entire game so it is possible to have different views and perspectives.
I don't take anything for granted.. to be honest. Not even that a CW will use RoE on tab...
I believe the assumption was that it had to be a comparison between a tactician and a master of flame, since a conqueror with decent gear would obliterate the master of flame simply by dealing more damage than the primary damage dealer.
It was never an absolute X is better than Y because the master of flame has too many newb helping powers and deals directly with a mechanic with built in diminishing returns. The more debuffs a group has, the weaker a master of flame is, the less crit a group has, the stronger a master of flame is. An "average" group probably benefits more from the master of flame, while any burn group probably can't find any use for them.
In my experience, guardian fighters are generally more useful than master of flame wizards, just because they are easier to play and understand. If a master of flame isn't using the full range of debuffs, explaining it takes like 30 minutes. If a guardian fighter isn't using into the fray, I can just say "slot into the fray please". This is similar to why great weapon fighters are usually known as the best damage dealer and trickster rogues one of the worst. It's simply because great weapon fighters are easy to play, while rogues take very specific gear and dynamic rotations with a specific party comp to even deal non-negative damage.
You are mixing up two of my statements. In a burn group, a guardian fighter wins by shear damage alone. This has been proven time and time again that guardian fighter is #1 damage dealer for burn groups due to their ability to just completely skip boss phases. This is one statement.
Now down in an average or newbie group where on paper the master of flame should win, people would still prefer a guardian fighter, since there is a higher chance a newbie or average guardian fighter knows how to press two buttons in each fight than a master of flame knows how to play his character properly. This is a separate, second statement.
"the math to back it up"
It didn't help his case any in my opinion when he tried to remove parts of the damage equation that cannot be removed for comparison.
"AND some video evidence, AND other people who had made it work for them"
Speed runners don't count?
"Unless something proves consistent in real-world (or game-world in our case) testing, then all the modeling in the world isn't going to make it "The Truth"."
Yes, it would likely be best to just assume and guess, since there is no way to truly remove all of the factors down to "The Truth"
"I would still like to do an organized Pepsi challenge."
If you can figure out how to remove all of the random elements, player skill, and gear differences from the challenge, I would like to see it as well. Currently the top two speed runs I have seen contain guardian fighters, and zero control wizards, so that might indicate something.
EDIT - As an extra side-note. Being requested in end-game groups doesn't make something good. I have seen requests for templocks in a group with only one cleric and one slot left. So 18% buffs and 35% debuffs from a templock are greater than 93% buffs and 37% debuffs from a divine oracle? Not likely.
EDIT2 - Actually there is a side note. If a player is far better geared/skilled/optimized than the players they play with, their class gets more credit than normal. I have experienced this first hand on my cleric, which has been labeled as the primary damage dealer in many groups, simply because my gear and optimization so vastly exceeds that of the players I play with.
Mof is one of the easiest classes to play. Its Neverwinter... we all use 3 skills.... 4 if you are cw. Its not rocket science.
Add some recharge speed and AP gain, have RoE on tab and you have all the debuffs up near or at 100% of the time....
the only real smart you need to do is WHEN to use things.
Please after all that (wrong) number theory stop trying to to tell people what is easy to play. If they like it they will find it easy anyway. .
you keep seeing the "my case, your case" I'm not trying to back anything. I'm not removing a part of the damage equation... I'm talking about the part we contribute. Do either gf or cw contribute to the player having 100% RI?
"if you can figure out how to remove all of the random elements, player skill, and gear differences "
Just read this again... you introduce everything in your example (even a 6th person) and the you worry about things that are practically irrelevant to this... player skill to use itf?? or RoE in tab???
Gear differences??? Any gears that do buff or debuff for the team? Want to include random lag in there too?
"Speed runners don't count?"
Yes they do count... are all the runs speed runs?? Is every single run a 10m run? have you done a 10 m run? My best run was 14m... It not 11 but its not bad either. Not everyone likes to make youtube videos for temporary fame.
Let me put it this way. Since there aren't many DPS GF, if a group cant find one, you think it will be bad to get either a tact GF or a MoF CW. Will the run go THAT much slower? Its either dps GF or nothing?? I mean seriously....
Those are just 2 examples... we can go back and forth but that has no end.
I will stop here this is getting pointless.
"Mof is one of the easiest classes to play. Its Neverwinter... we all use 3 skills.... 4 if you are cw. Its not rocket science.
Add some recharge speed and AP gain, have RoE on tab and you have all the debuffs up near or at 100% of the time...."
To you and I this may seem simple, but I run into players all the time who seem to have created their character using a random number generator. Guardians without into the fray, wizards using the flying meatball (i'm making a joke, I know the power is called Shard of Endless Avalanche) and Imprisonment etc. I never underestimate the ability of a player to completely ruin their own classes potential, because they can and will at every single chance they get.
"Just read this again... you introduce everything in your example (even a 6th person) and the you worry about things that are practically irrelevant to this... player skill to use itf?? or RoE in tab???"
He said to do a pepsi challenge and have actual groups run content. I was not talking about our paper simulations. I never added a 6th person. I simply left thorn ward on a DPS ranger without thinking about it properly. This would require robotic levels of precision and thousands of attempts to remove the random factors involved, which is what people do when speed running, they only show their best result obviously. Additionally, there are many players who understand and play their class better than pretty much everyone else. Can you truly have an equal test in a live environment? Can all of the random elements truly be removed?
"I'm talking about the part we contribute. Do either gf or cw contribute to the player having 100% RI? "
If you want to calculate damage that way, both classes cannot count any of the damage dealt by their team members, so both benefit the party by 0%. You cannot remove that 100% without altering the relative increase of the class. It is correct as long as we include it on both sides. We can only remove things from the equation that do not alter the equation when removed from both sides, such as the multiplier buffs provided by a cleric.
"Since there aren't many DPS GF, if a group cant find one, you think it will be bad to get either a tact GF or a MoF CW. Will the run go THAT much slower? Its weither dps GF or nothing?? I mean seriously...."
I personally take whatever class wants to join the group, since we will likely finish before the idiots who waited 2 hours for a 17k IL conqueror guardian. I will run with anybody, and to be honest, the difference between the two was lower than I had originally expected, but if someone tries to claim that a master of flame is better in a best in slot group than a guardian fighter (assuming there isn't already a guardian fighter in the group), I still would like to see the numbers that back that claim up.
Honestly, it looks like master of flame is probably best in every group I run with when compared to a buff-bot guardian, but yeah it's close enough that I probably wouldn't even care which one was coming along.
Sure, I didn't include up-times, sure I didn't include every factor, but there are so many factors that I would honestly like to see someone who creates a formula for all of them.
"I will stop here this is getting pointless."
Wait... there was a point originally?
TR-SNE
CW-ELIKIA-MOF T
DC-BUFFY ON HEELZ-BUFF/DEBUFF
GF-BAIT
GWF-MEATHEAD
HR-SPLIT NOCK
XBOX ONE
The question my friend was, what we (cw or gf) contribute with our buffs and debuffs... to the main damage dealer who will have 100% effectiveness even without us... As you see in my example I assume a hit of 100k that has 100% RI ... from that point on is what each class offers.. it's really that simple. Either way... I agree, we (and whoever reads this) got our conclusions hopefully .
"Guardians without into the fray, wizards using the flying meatball "
Whats wrong with meatball :P joking and I will agree with that and that was my main point since the beginning... we should all focus on making/helping players and not classes... I'm a cw... but when I will play any other class I will gladly choose a good gf over a bad cw and vice versa... and the same goes for every other class...
"Wait... there was a point originally?" You got me there :P
* Why are people so stuck on 2 DC's?
Looking at the spreadsheets above, you could just as easily ditch one of the DCs for a MoF and get more or less the same result. The healing from two DCs is not really needed(and MoF heals too), so why not just grab a MoF rather than waiting forever for that 2nd(and often low IL) DC to pop up? MoFs usually also contribute more dps than a DC.
* Is it badly specced MoFs that has ruined the reputation of MoF?
It is very easy to play a MoF without bringing the expected debuffs. Most CWs are basically Thaum dps specced and if they just make a MoF to get into Tong it could easily be set up badly without understanding the MoF role and mechanisms.
MoF checklist(ask your MoF about this.. if he does not answer properly, kick him):
* Renegade tree with cap feat
* SOD and CA loaded as class feats (which kills personal dps btw) These feats are the Smolder-based debuffs.
* How does the MoF apply Smolder? The most universal way should be Fan the Flames on Tab, but that sacrifices some RoE debuff. Alternatively Smolder can be applied from dailies but that can be less usable on trash and harder to keep up 100% on bosses since recharging dailies takes some time. Smolder fades after 6 secs if not refreshed by Chill.
For the daily Tong farmrun it seems to me this urge for 2 DCs seems a bit overdone - if you sacrifice 10% damage and get 1 minute longer runtime.. does it really matter? You spend that 1 minute looking for the extra DC anyways. I have seen quite fast and successful OP/DC/MoF/GF/GWF runs.