putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
one of the challenges with Gift of Haste (although Gift of Haste is nice) is that end game groups are probably not reliant on it to be slotted. As a DO DC I can perma-HG in the absence of a gf or Gift of Haste. That extra speed boost is waste on me as it would be on several other classes at end game... Unless you run with a set group has optimized around each other and therefore are dependent on specific configurations.
HG would not be perma if you simply give that timer a fix cooldown, but that would only nerf the class, not solve a lot. A 11k DO rightous DC is not much worse than a 17k DO DC at the moment, running Tong. The paragon/tree does not afford much to run every endcontent with lowest gear. AC/DC is pretty expensive to build, a DO can keep up all his buffs at 11k and less. I think there should be a solution somehow to prevent a DO rightous at 11k without boons being 3x more effective than a BIS character of another class that invested 80 mio AD, only thinking about the UE to buy. That´s the crux, on the one hand capped buffs can be obtained too easy at each IL and by that there is not much difference between a 11k GF or a 16k-buffer. ON the other hand open buffs according to stats tend to get out of whack in this game too fast.
Buffs dominate and are first and somhow only target for every supporter. There are no alternatives like go dps or go heal for that DO. If that DO contributes 50 mio or 10 mio in a bossfight does not change a lot, since the striker is the one that decides if you get a speedkill or not. (please no picks of one DO that dealt 100mio or 200 at Ras NI, I know what the average DO contributes, thanks). Atm I think Tong is no endcontent anymore, since every buffer group can solve it without much effort. I witnessed sooo many player that got pulled through that endcontent, sometimes 2 in one group at once, talking about a 11k DO or a buffer GF at 16k IL, that contributed nothing in the hole run. If those buffs would not stack the way they do and if 4 of 5 groupmemeber should contribute more than only buffs in that fight, it was real endcontent. Endcontent for well build and played toons, and a droprate that is like 40% not 0,004%, to open the opportunity for progress before 2020.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
what other daily from any class has a CD? Yes the Righteous capstone helps for the first two casts then you are back to no recovery for 35 seconds before it procs again. So if you are in a group where orcus can be downed in the first 50 seconds you probably have any DO perma'ing HG. If the fight goes longer than that the it's no longer perma'd unless you have CD reductions.
What about divine glow, it has like a 15s CD with a 6s uptime, meaning to perma it you will need to stack recovery. Even with the capstone up you have a 9s CD and would need additional CD reduction.
It's easy to say DO doesn't need CD reduction outside of the righteous capstone but in practice that's not true if you want to attempt to perma your buffs.
And that doesn't account for the effects of stuns and interrupts that make tong such a PITA.
WIth that an 11K do dc and an a 16k do dc are certainly much different. If both are specd for dps because that 16k do dc specd for dps will inadvertently still have much more cool-down reduction than the 11k do dc. Now you could argue that an 11k do dc built for debuffs is comparable in support to a 16k do dc built for dps. But both built with the same intention will vary greatly in actual contribution.
Also an 11k do dc is much less survivable in TONG. A dead DC does not buff. Now if your running that 11k DO DC with an AC DC, and two tanks they may offset his weakness through protection.
The biggest argument here would be that a 11k do dc is less of a carry than an 11k of another class since they can contribute even at a low ilvl why hiding within the meta. Whereas a 11k gwf vs a 17k gwf in the meta configuration would likely result in a failed run because they would lack the dps and the survive-ability of a 17k GWF.
Something else a 17K DO DC can do that a 11k DO DC can't do is take the dps role if your lead dps takes a dive on Ras Ni. It's not ideal but it is doable. It's similar to what a high ilvl MOF Ren can do. Swap a few powers and turn the focus on dps to finish him. What you get with high ilvls is flexibility in these hybrid builds afforded by high ilvl.
Regarding HR I can think of at least 2 daylies that have cooldown: Disruptive Shot and Forest Meditation or whatever is called. There may be 1 or 2 more daylies with cooldown for that class.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Something I want to also point out about the rating system that may have gone unnoticed. Powers rated at 5, are the right power for every situation, and often do not require thinking to even apply them at the correct time. Powers rated at 5 are often powers I would call "nerf candidates" because these powers are overpowered. Break the Spirit is the perfect example. Why do you slot it?
PVE Reasons: To reduce one target's damage output by 40%. Requires finding a dangerous target and pressing the button. To increase party damage by 20-30% by empowering it constantly. Requires spamming it whenever you have 2-3 charges.
Difficulty: To use adequately: almost no difficulty at all, just spam it with charges To use it optimally: easy, but requires some knowledge of enemy attack to hit the correct target and stand near the DPS at the same time
Situations this is useful: All of them. Never a situation where this isn't useful or even the best thing you can use.
PVP Reasons: To reduce one target's damage output by 40%. Requires pointing and clicking. To increase party damage by 30% by empowering it when needed. Requires knowledge of when it is needed.
Difficulty: To use adequately: none, your opponents can't even dodge or block this power. To use it optimally: difficult, since there are actually other powers that could be empowered usefully in PVP
Situations this is useful: All of them. Never a situation where this isn't useful or even the best thing you can use.
My understanding of Sunburst:
PVE Reasons: To generate AP. It has the highest Cooldown to AP ratio.
Difficulty: To use adequately: Moderately difficult, since you must hit allies and enemies at the same time to generate bonus AP. To use it optimally: Nearly Impossible, since you can only hit CC-Immune enemies with it without trolling your own team.
Situations this is useful: None
PVP Reasons: To generate AP. To knock opponents away, off nodes, or otherwise provide CC to setup a kill. To heal HP.
Difficulty: To use adequately: To provide healing and occasional knockback it is fairly straightforward, but will often miss or run into blocks or immunity. If spammed too often it will also generate enough stacks that your or your allies cannot CC your opponents anymore. To use optimally: You must only cast it when opponents aren't blocking, dodging, or are immune in any other way. This can be very challenging against some classes, and basically impossible against others.
Situations this is useful: Against specific classes it is very effective at all times. Against TR and GF it can often be wasted quite easily for almost no benefit. Mount Hotenow Domination specifically allows Sunburst to gain extra effectiveness by throwing enemies completely off 1 and 3 onto the ground below.
Sun burst is useful pve for an ac if he is the single dc. And this because when you are the only dc and you are ac you care to have ground and army as much uptime you can which it can beat the exaltation loss( sun burst in its place). Especially for boss fight where you can hit both boss and allies and your ap skyrocket.
Disruptive's only place is proccing Shepherd's so that tiny CD is mostly not a problem.
Isn't it also used to shorten the cooldown of Longstrider's Shot?
I agree with @schietindebux on his statement, something needs to be done about the current meta and state of the game, buffs are out of control and lots of players from dps classes are being left out as a consequence.
I once suggested something like this:
- Tweak interaction between buffs so it isn't as effective as it is today. - As there would be less buffs used (say, there would be a limit on how many a team could use), make each one more powerful. - Make the buffing capacity of support classes comparable, currently there's quite a difference in that regard. - Increase the base damage of strikers significantly, more powerful ones would get less of an increase than the rest.
That way, it would be possible to have different group compositions and, asuming all members knew what they are doing, the difference in perfomance would be minimal.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
@jaime4312#3760 instead of modifying interactions between buffs, doesn't it make more sense to install diminishing returns so that you can build content around the theoretical cap instead or re-tweaking whenever something goes out of line or something gets introduced that breaks the game?
I feel like we are chasing symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself
Thank you very much for your guide. It is very helpful.
However I think you do underestimate a bit the healing paths for DC, in particular the Virtuous path. I have not done extensive testing, but my hypothesis is that Shield of the Divine and Cleansing Fire synergize with Gift of Haste to really boost the AP gain of the party, so that everyone can use dailies much more rapidly than they could if the DC was only using Gift of Haste. That in itself is a type of buff. Furthermore, one great benefit of the Virtuous and Faithful capstones is that they allow the DC to "pre-heal" the party to a degree. A DC can anticipate when a big hit is coming (e.g., Dragon Turtle slam), cast a heal before the slam, and then see the green numbers of healing as the party falls back down to the ground. With the Faithful capstone, the DC can charge up the party's Gift of Faith even while completely out of combat, to make sure it is always topped off, so that when that big hit comes, the player is restored to full health. At least that is how it worked when I last tried out the Faithful path, which admittedly was a little while ago. So I view Virtuous as an alternative means of buffing than Righteous: Righteous provides direct damage buffs and debuffs, while Virtuous provides AP boosts that allows players to self-buff with more rapid dailies.
Otherwise, though, I appreciate the time and effort that you put into your guide.
Part of the issue with DCs not being able to pull off perma-HG that you mentioned earlier is because they do not go Righteous. Even if it is temporary, you cannot underestimate 40% recharge speed. Additionally you miss out on 35% debuffs by taking a different path (25% in mod 13). AC DC already takes Gift of Haste and can keep it up on everyone important using only Divine Glow if they position properly. DO could take it Gift of Haste, but it usually isn't worth the trade-off.
If DO takes a healing path: loses 40% damage buff (25/60 uptime) loses 40% recharge speed buff for HG uptime (25/60 uptime) loses 10% debuff loses fire of the gods (5-30% personal damage buff depending on your skill as a DPS DC) conclusion: way less recharge speed making perma HG considerably more difficult way less damage making DPS hybrid not an option If you want to be useless you can do this
If AC takes a healing path: loses 40% recharge speed buff which slows down rotation (25/60 uptime) loses 25% debuffs (only lose 10% if DO loses fire of the gods to take it) conclusion: fewer AAs, fewer cooldown resets, fewer HGs If party DPS is the only concern you would need to gain at least ~5% more damage (random guess based on what you lost from debuffs) for the whole team out of your Gift of Haste daily spam. Your DO will hate you.
EDIT - for reference, the cooldown is the part that makes HG hard to perma, not AP gain or generation. EDIT2 - High end groups always run a paladin, which can out-heal a cleric simply by existing. Even if they remove lifesteal I don't see healing being that important for a cleric still EDIT3 - BiS groups run a healadin. You have fun out-healing that thing
Well, some more information about what I've done with my AC Virtuous cleric. I invested heavily in AP gain, I have all 3 sprites at epic, I picked insignia that gave AP gain and I have the Tiamat set, the artifact also has AP gain. Plus, I use Artificer's Persuasion. Plus I have the DC sigil as primary artifact. Plus I use Hastening Light. I do not at all have any problems keeping up AA permanently. As far as missing out on the cooldown reduction of the Righteous capstone, well, the cooldowns on BtS and DG are so short to begin with that I am almost never waiting for those to go off cooldown. It's really rare when that happens. Basically, I have to spend time to empower BtS/Exaltation anyway by generating divinity and casting something in divine mode, that by time I do that, the spell is already off cooldown. I agree with you that DO Virtuous makes less sense, due to the fixed cooldown of HG, and the greater need for every source of Recovery and cooldown reductions available. But for AC Virtuous it seems to work okay.
I don't know anything about Devotion OP's, I don't think I have ever run a high-level dungeon with one. (I thought high-end groups doing high-end dungeons didn't need much in the way of heals. Why take a Devotion OP?) But the point of my cleric is not to be a healbot, but to offer self-buffs to members of the party via topping them up on health and AP. If the difference in damage is only about 5%, then I think that could be easily argued with, e.g., helping GWF's have perma-Slam active, or helping MoF CW's have perma-Smolder active via the Combustive Action feature.
I invested heavily in AP gain, I have all 3 sprites at epic, I picked insignia that gave AP gain and I have the Tiamat set, the artifact also has AP gain. Plus, I use Artificer's Persuasion. Plus I have the DC sigil as primary artifact. Plus I use Hastening Light.
Every source of power that you put AP gain or recovery into reduces the effectiveness of your buffs. At BiS you are aiming for around 60k base power (I say you are aiming for this number because it is the most you can currently get with the best power gear, not because you don't want more). If you sacrifice any of this power, even if you can keep the buff up forever, it just means you have a weaker buff than an equally geared Righteous AC.
I do not at all have any problems keeping up AA permanently...
...I agree with you that DO Virtuous makes less sense, due to the fixed cooldown of HG
I think you misunderstood this a bit. You have the right idea, but you missed the synergy. If you cast AA more, it reduces the HG cooldown of your allied DO more, making it easier for them to perma-HG. The more frequently you AA, the more frequently your DO can HG. I find it funny sometimes when an AC starts complaining about a DO not perma-casting HG, when they themselves are only casting AA every 12 seconds. Yeah, AA is always up then, but because of the HG timings and AA timings likely getting out of sync, the Hastening Light proc won't reduce the HG cooldown in time. More AA = more HG.
I don't know anything about Devotion OP's, I don't think I have ever run a high-level dungeon with one. (I thought high-end groups doing high-end dungeons didn't need much in the way of heals. Why take a Devotion OP?)
They don't take it for the heals. A Devotation OP (nicknamed Bananadin or Baneadin) is able to use Bane on allies (tankadins cannot). This is a 30% damage buff at 3 stacks. With enough recovery and planning, a Bananadin can keep 3 stacks up on 3 targets, including the boss. High end groups don't need heals or tanks, so they bring the buff-bot version of the Paladin. These paladins bring at least Aura of Courage, Aura of Wisdom, Bane x3, perma temp HP for the Guardian Fighter (Wrathful Warrior), and Aura Gifts.
But the point of my cleric is not to be a healbot, but to offer self-buffs to members of the party via topping them up on health and AP. If the difference in damage is only about 5%, then I think that could be easily argued with, e.g., helping GWF's have perma-Slam active, or helping MoF CW's have perma-Smolder active via the Combustive Action feature.
I'm not saying that the difference is only 5% I'm saying that it doesn't even show up as competition until Gift of Haste adds over 5% more damage (which I don't think it does in most groups), since you would be losing so many debuffs from going a healing path. This doesn't even consider the recharge speed to help your DO out, since that is very hard to quantify and depends on how well geared your allied DO is.
I just want to respond to the healing section in your review, you correctly mentioned that healing is not needed (and when it is, lifesteal solves this problem for most). However this you part you said is not entirely correct: "Healing from a cleric is particularly not useful because it is either slow to cast, or is so small that it will be ignored", both the virtuous and faithful path provide enough healing for any situation where it does not involve one shot kills, virtuous is especially strong in pve as the heal over times rapidly become burst heals.
The possible fix I recommend is to VERY HEAVILY nerf lifesteal, and also HEAVILY reduce the healing of the paladin, cleric and temptation warlock. Added to that, introduce much more damage over time effects in the harder challenges that provide incentives to build truly strong healing builds. Likewise as you mentioned the only job of the cleric is to boost dps of others, and I agree with you when it comes to fact that the damage boost it provides is too high and creates big performance differences between different parties combinations that are simply too much.
Very simply put, the cleric needs to go back it's principle role of being a healer, as long as this does not happen I don't consider the cleric to be in a valid state, nor can I accept those that argue that one should just tolerate the broken meta.
I believe the devs are doing small changes that upset
HG would not be perma if you simply give that timer a fix cooldown, but that would only nerf the class, not solve a lot. A 11k DO rightous DC is not much worse than a 17k DO DC at the moment, running Tong. The paragon/tree does not afford much to run every endcontent with lowest gear. AC/DC is pretty expensive to build, a DO can keep up all his buffs at 11k and less. I think there should be a solution somehow to prevent a DO rightous at 11k without boons being 3x more effective than a BIS character of another class that invested 80 mio AD, only thinking about the UE to buy. That´s the crux, on the one hand capped buffs can be obtained too easy at each IL and by that there is not much difference between a 11k GF or a 16k-buffer. ON the other hand open buffs according to stats tend to get out of whack in this game too fast.
Buffs dominate and are first and somhow only target for every supporter. There are no alternatives like go dps or go heal for that DO. If that DO contributes 50 mio or 10 mio in a bossfight does not change a lot, since the striker is the one that decides if you get a speedkill or not. (please no picks of one DO that dealt 100mio or 200 at Ras NI, I know what the average DO contributes, thanks). Atm I think Tong is no endcontent anymore, since every buffer group can solve it without much effort. I witnessed sooo many player that got pulled through that endcontent, sometimes 2 in one group at once, talking about a 11k DO or a buffer GF at 16k IL, that contributed nothing in the hole run. If those buffs would not stack the way they do and if 4 of 5 groupmemeber should contribute more than only buffs in that fight, it was real endcontent. Endcontent for well build and played toons, and a droprate that is like 40% not 0,004%, to open the opportunity for progress before 2020.
Here is a thought on how to resolve the TI issue and how to bring balance to the DO vs AC builds for DCs.
There is no change to the AC side, just DO and only to TI.
Instead of TI getting a straight % increase to damage, the % of damage is based on the DC power and each point into the personal will increase its effectiveness.
With each 2K base power a DC increase damage by .25% per a power point. TI would have a cap of 20% and to reach a 20% damage bonus a DO would need a base power of 40K. This would balance out both builds and would make DO still viable in end game.
Let's discuss this among the DC's here. Yes it is a drastic change and would bring balance to both DC builds.
I just want to respond to the healing section in your review, you correctly mentioned that healing is not needed (and when it is, lifesteal solves this problem for most). However this you part you said is not entirely correct: "Healing from a cleric is particularly not useful because it is either slow to cast, or is so small that it will be ignored", both the virtuous and faithful path provide enough healing for any situation where it does not involve one shot kills, virtuous is especially strong in pve as the heal over times rapidly become burst heals.
The possible fix I recommend is to VERY HEAVILY nerf lifesteal, and also HEAVILY reduce the healing of the paladin, cleric and temptation warlock. Added to that, introduce much more damage over time effects in the harder challenges that provide incentives to build truly strong healing builds. Likewise as you mentioned the only job of the cleric is to boost dps of others, and I agree with you when it comes to fact that the damage boost it provides is too high and creates big performance differences between different parties combinations that are simply too much.
Very simply put, the cleric needs to go back it's principle role of being a healer, as long as this does not happen I don't consider the cleric to be in a valid state, nor can I accept those that argue that one should just tolerate the broken meta.
I believe the devs are doing small changes that upset
HG would not be perma if you simply give that timer a fix cooldown, but that would only nerf the class, not solve a lot. A 11k DO rightous DC is not much worse than a 17k DO DC at the moment, running Tong. The paragon/tree does not afford much to run every endcontent with lowest gear. AC/DC is pretty expensive to build, a DO can keep up all his buffs at 11k and less. I think there should be a solution somehow to prevent a DO rightous at 11k without boons being 3x more effective than a BIS character of another class that invested 80 mio AD, only thinking about the UE to buy. That´s the crux, on the one hand capped buffs can be obtained too easy at each IL and by that there is not much difference between a 11k GF or a 16k-buffer. ON the other hand open buffs according to stats tend to get out of whack in this game too fast.
Buffs dominate and are first and somhow only target for every supporter. There are no alternatives like go dps or go heal for that DO. If that DO contributes 50 mio or 10 mio in a bossfight does not change a lot, since the striker is the one that decides if you get a speedkill or not. (please no picks of one DO that dealt 100mio or 200 at Ras NI, I know what the average DO contributes, thanks). Atm I think Tong is no endcontent anymore, since every buffer group can solve it without much effort. I witnessed sooo many player that got pulled through that endcontent, sometimes 2 in one group at once, talking about a 11k DO or a buffer GF at 16k IL, that contributed nothing in the hole run. If those buffs would not stack the way they do and if 4 of 5 groupmemeber should contribute more than only buffs in that fight, it was real endcontent. Endcontent for well build and played toons, and a droprate that is like 40% not 0,004%, to open the opportunity for progress before 2020.
Here is a thought on how to resolve the TI issue and how to bring balance to the DO vs AC builds for DCs.
There is no change to the AC side, just DO and only to TI.
Instead of TI getting a straight % increase to damage, the % of damage is based on the DC power and each point into the personal will increase its effectiveness.
With each 2K base power a DC increase damage by .25% per a power point. TI would have a cap of 20% and to reach a 20% damage bonus a DO would need a base power of 40K. This would balance out both builds and would make DO still viable in end game.
Let's discuss this among the DC's here. Yes it is a drastic change and would bring balance to both DC builds.
Thank you for your Guide / Overview of the DC class. I'm currently playing a DO DC, at 12,1k itemlevel. Gotta respec him because I was going to make a mixed dps/support build that isn't quite enough anymore. In your guide you say that a DO DC DPS / Buff Hybrid is the most effective among the other DO builds. DPS/Buff hybrid as in build dps and use buff powers. Does it mean that my boons need to be dps ones, that I need to aim for 100% crit (azure enchantments in offense slots) and that my gear pieces need to be Power+Crit rather than Power+Recovery? And does it also mean *weeps* that my companions need to be dps ones? You know, those overpriced ones that every dps wants. I'm currently aiming for something like 18k recovery from gear and companion gear and companion enchantments, while aiming for as much power as possible from gear and enchantments on my toon, to maximize Weapons of Light powershare. Not building Crit at all. How is DO DC DPS / Buff Hybrid built and equipped?
You are correct on pretty much all of those. You build DPS as if you are a DPS. You cannot completely ignore recovery most likely, but most of what you need should come naturally through normal gear progression. I personally recommend Black Ice enchantments once you get enough gear, but Azures are better when you are first starting out. It depends on if you want to bother switching (or making both). With a perma-procced Artificer's Persuasion and a Griffon mount you will likely never need more than 15kish recovery even as the only DC in your group. This means that you will likely not need 18k recovery.
AC DC takes most of the offense boons anyways, since they are building power share and their usually aren't better options. As a DO it's normally a choice between Crit or some random defensive stat you will never need, so yeah most of the time you just go with offensive stuff. Note that there are a few "newb trap" boons that say stuff like "deals 20,000 damage" ignore these. Most boons that say they deal damage do almost literally no damage. If there is something decent you can take instead, take it. A good example of this is the tier 3ish Sharandar boon. You will have a choice of 20k healing or 20k damage. Take the healing.
You use a hybrid set of buff/dps powers. Depending on the situation I use something like: DG / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers Chains / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers if the AC DC in my group isn't horrible PoD / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers for bosses BoH / HW / BtS -- my normal powers for Nostura so we don't kill her and survive the curse
TI and HG are no-brainers obviously
As far as companions go, you would benefit from all of the good DPS companions. This doesn't mean that you want all the expensive ones, since many people want the wrong ones, but I would say that you want a few archons, a siegemaster, and the new Tiger coming out in module 13. Do not get a cambion magus, erinyes, dancing blade, golden lion, or or any other companion that gives crit severity, combat advantage damage, flat stats, or poison procs. Sprites aren't the worst thing you could use though if you have trouble keeping HG up all the time.
As for Weapons of Light, you should keep in mind that Weapons of Light will no longer stack from two clerics in module 13, so as long as the double DC meta survives (which it looks like it will survive through module 13), then the DO will no longer be able to benefit from their own Weapons of Light while in a group.
Thanks for the explanation. Guess I'll have to save up quite a lot of AD to turn my DC into a hybrid. By the way, if we gotta build a dps DC and thus aim for that 100% crit, why wouldn't we want an Erynes? Is it because by using Black Ice enchantments we'll never have enough crit to reach 100% and justify a crit severity companion?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
edited January 2018
cambion magus, erinyes can be very effective at dps if you go frost instead of vorp/dread. the logic if your going straight dps with vorpal/dread is having additional crit sev is less effective the higher it gets. But if you don' have vorp/dread its not a issue or if you want to focus on the heal aspect of crit sev.
you can certainly reach 100% crit chance with Black Ice Enchantments
Can't go wrong with a Tamed Velociraptor on active
I run plaguefire on my DC , since it´s the one I bought 4 years ago (and I sold my Dread... ) So my Erinyes deals >4% +damage with Combat advantage and a critseverity at 90%
> @jaime4312#3760 said: >Isn't it also used to shorten the cooldown of Longstrider's Shot?
My HR us combat and I'm not familiar with that mechanic. However my point was that the daily is just used to proc something else. I assume that is the same.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
> @schietindebux said: > I run plaguefire on my DC , since it´s the one I bought 4 years ago (and I sold my Dread... :# ) > So my Erinyes deals >4% +damage with Combat advantage and a critseverity at 90%
If you have 120% crit severity, which should be what you have around end-game with full potions even without dread or vorpal, and you have 30% combat advantage damage, which you should have around end-game, then yes, Erinyes adds 4% more damage--or so you would think.
Sadly, it doesn't. It only increases your critical damage by 4%. This means that all the damage you deal from aura of courage and fire of the gods is not multiplied. These two together are at least 10% of a divine oracle's damage, making Erinyes at best a 3.6% damage increase.
You could make the excuse that not everyone is best in slot with potions, but those same players that aren't best in slot with potions probably don't have 100% crit rate and start losing the benefits of the erinyes from that.
Some good damage dealing companions are air archon, earth archon, siege master, and then maybe a fire archon or tamed velociraptor. Your last companion is obviously the summoned debuff companion.
> I run plaguefire on my DC , since it´s the one I bought 4 years ago (and I sold my Dread... )
> So my Erinyes deals >4% +damage with Combat advantage and a critseverity at 90%
If you have 120% crit severity, which should be what you have around end-game with full potions even without dread or vorpal, and you have 30% combat advantage damage, which you should have around end-game, then yes, Erinyes adds 4% more damage--or so you would think.
Sadly, it doesn't. It only increases your critical damage by 4%. This means that all the damage you deal from aura of courage and fire of the gods is not multiplied. These two together are at least 10% of a divine oracle's damage, making Erinyes at best a 3.6% damage increase.
You could make the excuse that not everyone is best in slot with potions, but those same players that aren't best in slot with potions probably don't have 100% crit rate and start losing the benefits of the erinyes from that.
Some good damage dealing companions are air archon, earth archon, siege master, and then maybe a fire archon or tamed velociraptor. Your last companion is obviously the summoned debuff companion.
Plaguefire is bugged with Fire of gods, low pecentage, not fixed yet. Aura of courage is an arguement, but never that much in my ACT-log and needs to be adjusted anyway since it´s one mayor factor of disbalance in this game- "lolset effect". And last but not least I never run at 120 critseverity, since I do not drink 3 potions in a row to get there, no need to do so, my runs last 20-30min+ and my DO-DC never was top dps by far, I am a supporter. Same as my striker and my tank don´t drink 3 potions to buff their critseverity, never did so, one is enough reagarding my striker and I take the one for free (wild storm). Any DO DC here that drinks 3 potion in a tongrun to lift his critseverity towards 120% from 92%? You end anyway at 1/10 of what that GWF dealt. 75% base, 12% from boons + 5% from offhandfeat, that´s what I got. I also am not one of those 0,001% of player that run with maxed gear in NWO. I know archons are the better buffs at least since that 0.5% was fixed, but there is no huge difference in picking a fire archon at 7%/2 or a Erinnye or a siegemaster, we talk about a pretty small difference, in case you do not run dread or vorp
@schietindebux Another great reason to not use plaguefire
Okay, fine we will only use 102% critical severity, which is the amount you said combined with the wild storm elixer. Because I still think it is foolish to exclude fire of the gods, I will still be including that. I came up with a +3.87% damage increase for erinyes with 102% crit severity, 30% combat advantage damage, and 10% damage that cannot crit. It comes out to 4.31% if I pretend all of my damage can crit. Is it really worth getting the erinyes over the siege master when in the best possible situation it will give me +0.31% more damage? I personally don't think so.
For a best in slot cleric that isn't using dread, vorpal or any potions it is still less than a +3.7% damage increase even if all of their damage could crit. This is because the combat advantage damage you can actually reach on a cleric is over 50%.
"You end anyway at 1/10 of what that GWF dealt." So run the dungeon with no gear, companions, mounts or potions. You only need your main hand weapon to cast spells. Your damage doesn't matter anyways right?
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Erinyes is also free, since any long term player would have invested in the pack anyhow. Account wide companion that can give you that much flat dps is at the very least a good value.
and crit sev contributes to heals, if you care at all about heals. Whereas archons and siegemaster don't. If they ever make heals viable again, crit sev will become popular again as well.
@putzboy78 The free companion is always better value. That doesn't make it better. If you are recommending companions to a new player erinyes is actually worse value. Just because you don't currently own anything better to put in the slot doesn't mean it is best in slot.
That's not even counting the fact that the value of a blue erinyes can pretty much never beat the value of a blue siege master.
So run the dungeon with no gear, companions, mounts or potions. You only need your main hand weapon to cast spells. Your damage doesn't matter anyways right?
I'm 100% with you on this.
I'm all for realistic math and for players performing well in roles that make the most sense for their classes, but I believe that dealing an appropriate amount of damage for one's role is an important goal.
Besides, not every primary DPS in an end-game dungeon run is capable of single-handedly winning the day, and if every support completely rejects responsibility for damage, there is likely to be a problem. Even if the party is high-functioning, that extra damage can be fantastic for accelerating trash kills and moving the pace along. A lot of players seem to drastically underestimate how much damage a DC (both AC and DO) can contribute while still providing significant power share and necessary buffs/debuffs.
Okay, fine we will only use 102% critical severity, which is the amount you said combined with the wild storm elixer. Because I still think it is foolish to exclude fire of the gods, I will still be including that. I came up with a +3.87% damage increase for erinyes with 102% crit severity, 30% combat advantage damage, and 10% damage that cannot crit. It comes out to 4.31% if I pretend all of my damage can crit. Is it really worth getting the erinyes over the siege master when in the best possible situation it will give me +0.31% more damage? I personally don't think so.
For a best in slot cleric that isn't using dread, vorpal or any potions it is still less than a +3.7% damage increase even if all of their damage could crit. This is because the combat advantage damage you can actually reach on a cleric is over 50%.
"You end anyway at 1/10 of what that GWF dealt."
So run the dungeon with no gear, companions, mounts or potions. You only need your main hand weapon to cast spells. Your damage doesn't matter anyways right?
OK, so put it this way. I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game are not and will never be. My Combat Advantage is even not 40% on my DC and I a can´t imagine why and how I gain a 50% CA bonus, and that´s what about 99,9% of player in this game will allways look like. My striker runs archons from what air is set in stone, about earth there were tests in the past that told about a pretty bad uptime depending on the encounter for sure. The fire archon only kicks in at 50%. I run a siegemaster on top with that sellsword like a lot of player do. In the end the differece is not that big and that´s what I tried to point at, without any intend to discuss it until nausea
And no, I run a plaguefire since that´s what I got and it´s a good choice anyway, hard to argue what serves best if the dps I monitor in tong is maybe 1/20 of overall damage. But yes if someone would give me that Dread I might use it, not sure if the 4% debuff and bonus-dps beats that stacking 3.5x3% in the sum concerning group dps. But if I do that math and recognize: " I need to deal >50% + damage with that Dread, to compensate a 4% vs a 10.5% debuff, since my part of that run is at best 5-6% of the dealt damage, I might stay with my plaguefire." No I did not do the math. I recommend a plaguefire > a Dread for >90% of player ingame since 99% of DO´s I met don´t have 100% crit at all and deal poor damage even running that dreadenchant. Only problem is that bug about fire of gods, wich is a big spoiler... I also would agree about the advantage of archons, same as siege master, but if anyone asked me if he should invest >1mio AD into that fire archon having a Erinnyes allready, I´d say "No, I would not do so, since all you gonna do through mod 13 at bosses is BtS, DG, PoD and clap your hands .... except AD doesn´t matter at all."
@schietindebux "I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game are not and will never be." mind showing me the source of your player stats? I am curious.
"I a can´t imagine why and how I gain a 50% CA bonus, and that´s what about 99,9% of player in this game" So there are players out there who have better gear than best in slot. Could you explain that one to me?
"I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game are not and will never be."
mind showing me the source of your player stats? I am curious.
I run far >100 tongs with warlock, GF, DC. I did not meet one DO IL12-17, that dealt a considerabele ammount of dps on bosses, if I compared his dps on a boss vs a GWF, GF, Hunter etc. So if you say you build your DC as dps , I´d say fine , if someone tells me he bought sprites,I´d say fine go for it, 90% of player can´t perma-AA at 2. tong boss. My answer do not base on a theoretical pov. In practice NWO look like that to me, until now zero DO DC that was able to top a striker on bosses or get even near that dps, same as the average setup is not BIS at all. If the DC was my only class, I might argue same way. But I run a striker too, so my DC has no interest in getting a dps class and never will focus on dps at the current state. And if we talk about the small ammounts of player ingame that are able to run their DO as primary dps at tong, I´d say lucky one you are maybe the only player in this game that does. You talk of that 0,1%, I don´t. The average player in NWO is not running speedruns, same as he does not kill Avatar of Orcus in 10 seconds. NWO is nothing else than this atm: You are either a "buffing-slave" together with your 3 other mates, or you are the "master" that calls for buffs. I really laugh , reading comments sometimes doing random runs. GWF: " Low buff..slow group" (it could also have been a Hunter or TR) But that´s the moment I´d like to see him pulling out his whip.
"I a can´t imagine why and how I gain a 50% CA bonus, and that´s what about 99,9% of player in this game" So there are players out there who have better gear than best in slot. Could you explain that one to me?
I did not understand what you point at exactly. I only say I can´t imagine how to reach 50% CA on a cleric, that´s what you pointed at, not me. I said about 99,9% in this game will not reach that ammount of CA with their cleric ever.
@schietindebux "I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game" "I said about 99,9% in this game will not reach that ammount of CA" So, 0.5% of the players in the game are BIS, but only 0.1% have 50% combat advantage damage. So how are there 0.4% of the players in the game with BIS gear but yet don't have BIS combat advantage damage? That was my point.
"90% of player can´t perma-AA at 2. tong boss." In my experience, any DC with a sigil of the devoted can perma-AA the 2nd boss for the entire duration of the sigil. Experienced DCs that can't perma-AA through the paralysis effect will wait to pop the sigil until after avatar runs out and the lightning+water has showed up, that way they can spam AA all the way through the lightning effect. Inexperience doesn't mean they can't do it, it just means they are inexperienced. Also, in a burn group, if you cannot perma-AA, you are basically saying that they cannot use their daily once or twice.
An anointed champion building for damage is probably doing something wrong, or was forced to run anointed champion using divine oracle gear. I am mainly talking about a divine oracle here, since anointed champion just simply shouldn't be building much damage.
"I only say I can´t imagine how to reach 50% CA on a cleric" Here let me explain it 15% (base) 8.7% (1200 CA utility stat) 13% (23 CHA) =36.7%
Okay weird thing, the simulator I was using I think calculates the underdark boon incorrectly. According to the simulator it works like this: (1 + 36.7%) * (1 + 10%) - 1 = 50.37%
but I thought it worked like this: 36.7% * (1 + 10%) = 40.37%
Either way, this number easily exceeds the 30% I used in my original example. I did get confirmation that it is the 2nd, so hehe oops, it's only 40% (45% tops)
"And if we talk about the small ammounts of player ingame that are able to run their DO as primary dps at tong, I´d say lucky one you are maybe the only player in this game that does." Who in the world would run their cleric as primary damage dealer? Okay, maybe I tried it a few times for laughs, but seriously. The point isn't to run as primary damage dealer, the point is to stack more damage onto the enemies faster. As a divine oracle, doing damage is basically free, since you don't need much of any gear to use your buffs. From this stand-point any amount of damage you deal is effectively increasing your party's damage, since it is damage they wouldn't have dealt anyways.
By this you can start with what percentage of the party's damage is yours and then try to get an idea of how much damage a specific item increases the party's damage. If you deal 5% (you said 1/20th right?) of your primary damage dealer's damage, I think you probably forgot to slot damage spells, and paingiver would look like this:
1,200,000,000 DPS 440,000,000 OP tank 120,000,000 Some other support I won't name because I don't want to get into another argument about it 80,000,000 AC DC 60,000,000 DO DC
I honestly don't know how you could only deal 60 million damage in an entire ToNG run when a single daunting light should deal over a million each time you use it. But hey, if your divine oracle does less than the average anointed champion, we can use that as an example.
So a flask of potency adds 7.5% critical severity. Lets assume you only have 50% crit chance just so this adds as little damage as possible. That should be around 1% more damage for yourself. Even with you dealing basically 0 damage in a group, a flask of potency is worth 0.03% more damage for your party. If you are willing to sacrifice all of your party damage for some time AP gain, then why aren't you also sacrificing all of your AD for this tiny party buff?
In a more realistic party makeup, a divine oracle should be dealing damage closer to this:
1,000,000,000 DPS 350,000,000 DO DC 350,000,000 OP tank 120,000,000 Some other support I won't name because I don't want to get into another argument about it 80,000,000 AC DC
With 100% crit the flask of potency should add closer to 2.7% more damage, and because of your higher damage total the flask of potency is now a ~0.5% party buff. Is it worth it? Depends on your budget I guess. Is it worthless? Only if a ~0.5% party buff is also worthless.
Comments
A 11k DO rightous DC is not much worse than a 17k DO DC at the moment, running Tong.
The paragon/tree does not afford much to run every endcontent with lowest gear.
AC/DC is pretty expensive to build, a DO can keep up all his buffs at 11k and less.
I think there should be a solution somehow to prevent a DO rightous at 11k without boons being 3x more effective than a BIS character of another class that invested 80 mio AD, only thinking about the UE to buy.
That´s the crux, on the one hand capped buffs can be obtained too easy at each IL and by that there is not much difference between a 11k GF or a 16k-buffer.
ON the other hand open buffs according to stats tend to get out of whack in this game too fast.
Buffs dominate and are first and somhow only target for every supporter. There are no alternatives like go dps or go heal for that DO.
If that DO contributes 50 mio or 10 mio in a bossfight does not change a lot, since the striker is the one that decides if you get a speedkill or not.
(please no picks of one DO that dealt 100mio or 200 at Ras NI, I know what the average DO contributes, thanks).
Atm I think Tong is no endcontent anymore, since every buffer group can solve it without much effort.
I witnessed sooo many player that got pulled through that endcontent, sometimes 2 in one group at once, talking about a 11k DO or a buffer GF at 16k IL, that contributed nothing in the hole run.
If those buffs would not stack the way they do and if 4 of 5 groupmemeber should contribute more than only buffs in that fight, it was real endcontent.
Endcontent for well build and played toons, and a droprate that is like 40% not 0,004%, to open the opportunity for progress before 2020.
What about divine glow, it has like a 15s CD with a 6s uptime, meaning to perma it you will need to stack recovery. Even with the capstone up you have a 9s CD and would need additional CD reduction.
It's easy to say DO doesn't need CD reduction outside of the righteous capstone but in practice that's not true if you want to attempt to perma your buffs.
And that doesn't account for the effects of stuns and interrupts that make tong such a PITA.
WIth that an 11K do dc and an a 16k do dc are certainly much different. If both are specd for dps because that 16k do dc specd for dps will inadvertently still have much more cool-down reduction than the 11k do dc. Now you could argue that an 11k do dc built for debuffs is comparable in support to a 16k do dc built for dps. But both built with the same intention will vary greatly in actual contribution.
Also an 11k do dc is much less survivable in TONG. A dead DC does not buff. Now if your running that 11k DO DC with an AC DC, and two tanks they may offset his weakness through protection.
The biggest argument here would be that a 11k do dc is less of a carry than an 11k of another class since they can contribute even at a low ilvl why hiding within the meta. Whereas a 11k gwf vs a 17k gwf in the meta configuration would likely result in a failed run because they would lack the dps and the survive-ability of a 17k GWF.
Something else a 17K DO DC can do that a 11k DO DC can't do is take the dps role if your lead dps takes a dive on Ras Ni. It's not ideal but it is doable. It's similar to what a high ilvl MOF Ren can do. Swap a few powers and turn the focus on dps to finish him. What you get with high ilvls is flexibility in these hybrid builds afforded by high ilvl.
Regarding HR I can think of at least 2 daylies that have cooldown: Disruptive Shot and Forest Meditation or whatever is called. There may be 1 or 2 more daylies with cooldown for that class.
And this because when you are the only dc and you are ac you care to have ground and army as much uptime you can which it can beat the exaltation loss( sun burst in its place). Especially for boss fight where you can hit both boss and allies and your ap skyrocket.
I agree with @schietindebux on his statement, something needs to be done about the current meta and state of the game, buffs are out of control and lots of players from dps classes are being left out as a consequence.
I once suggested something like this:
- Tweak interaction between buffs so it isn't as effective as it is today.
- As there would be less buffs used (say, there would be a limit on how many a team could use), make each one more powerful.
- Make the buffing capacity of support classes comparable, currently there's quite a difference in that regard.
- Increase the base damage of strikers significantly, more powerful ones would get less of an increase than the rest.
That way, it would be possible to have different group compositions and, asuming all members knew what they are doing, the difference in perfomance would be minimal.
I feel like we are chasing symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself
I don't know anything about Devotion OP's, I don't think I have ever run a high-level dungeon with one. (I thought high-end groups doing high-end dungeons didn't need much in the way of heals. Why take a Devotion OP?) But the point of my cleric is not to be a healbot, but to offer self-buffs to members of the party via topping them up on health and AP. If the difference in damage is only about 5%, then I think that could be easily argued with, e.g., helping GWF's have perma-Slam active, or helping MoF CW's have perma-Smolder active via the Combustive Action feature.
Hope this helps to clarify what I wrote earlier.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
There is no change to the AC side, just DO and only to TI.
Instead of TI getting a straight % increase to damage, the % of damage is based on the DC power and each point into the personal will increase its effectiveness.
With each 2K base power a DC increase damage by .25% per a power point. TI would have a cap of 20% and to reach a 20% damage bonus a DO would need a base power of 40K. This would balance out both builds and would make DO still viable in end game.
Let's discuss this among the DC's here. Yes it is a drastic change and would bring balance to both DC builds.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I'm currently playing a DO DC, at 12,1k itemlevel. Gotta respec him because I was going to make a mixed dps/support build that isn't quite enough anymore.
In your guide you say that a DO DC DPS / Buff Hybrid is the most effective among the other DO builds. DPS/Buff hybrid as in build dps and use buff powers. Does it mean that my boons need to be dps ones, that I need to aim for 100% crit (azure enchantments in offense slots) and that my gear pieces need to be Power+Crit rather than Power+Recovery? And does it also mean *weeps* that my companions need to be dps ones? You know, those overpriced ones that every dps wants.
I'm currently aiming for something like 18k recovery from gear and companion gear and companion enchantments, while aiming for as much power as possible from gear and enchantments on my toon, to maximize Weapons of Light powershare. Not building Crit at all.
How is DO DC DPS / Buff Hybrid built and equipped?
AC DC takes most of the offense boons anyways, since they are building power share and their usually aren't better options. As a DO it's normally a choice between Crit or some random defensive stat you will never need, so yeah most of the time you just go with offensive stuff. Note that there are a few "newb trap" boons that say stuff like "deals 20,000 damage" ignore these. Most boons that say they deal damage do almost literally no damage. If there is something decent you can take instead, take it. A good example of this is the tier 3ish Sharandar boon. You will have a choice of 20k healing or 20k damage. Take the healing.
You use a hybrid set of buff/dps powers. Depending on the situation I use something like:
DG / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers
Chains / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers if the AC DC in my group isn't horrible
PoD / DL / BtS (empowered) -- my normal powers for bosses
BoH / HW / BtS -- my normal powers for Nostura so we don't kill her and survive the curse
TI and HG are no-brainers obviously
As far as companions go, you would benefit from all of the good DPS companions. This doesn't mean that you want all the expensive ones, since many people want the wrong ones, but I would say that you want a few archons, a siegemaster, and the new Tiger coming out in module 13. Do not get a cambion magus, erinyes, dancing blade, golden lion, or or any other companion that gives crit severity, combat advantage damage, flat stats, or poison procs. Sprites aren't the worst thing you could use though if you have trouble keeping HG up all the time.
As for Weapons of Light, you should keep in mind that Weapons of Light will no longer stack from two clerics in module 13, so as long as the double DC meta survives (which it looks like it will survive through module 13), then the DO will no longer be able to benefit from their own Weapons of Light while in a group.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
you can certainly reach 100% crit chance with Black Ice Enchantments
Can't go wrong with a Tamed Velociraptor on active
debuff companion for summoned
So my Erinyes deals >4% +damage with Combat advantage and a critseverity at 90%
>Isn't it also used to shorten the cooldown of Longstrider's Shot?
My HR us combat and I'm not familiar with that mechanic. However my point was that the daily is just used to proc something else. I assume that is the same.
> I run plaguefire on my DC , since it´s the one I bought 4 years ago (and I sold my Dread... :# )
> So my Erinyes deals >4% +damage with Combat advantage and a critseverity at 90%
If you have 120% crit severity, which should be what you have around end-game with full potions even without dread or vorpal, and you have 30% combat advantage damage, which you should have around end-game, then yes, Erinyes adds 4% more damage--or so you would think.
Sadly, it doesn't. It only increases your critical damage by 4%. This means that all the damage you deal from aura of courage and fire of the gods is not multiplied. These two together are at least 10% of a divine oracle's damage, making Erinyes at best a 3.6% damage increase.
You could make the excuse that not everyone is best in slot with potions, but those same players that aren't best in slot with potions probably don't have 100% crit rate and start losing the benefits of the erinyes from that.
Some good damage dealing companions are air archon, earth archon, siege master, and then maybe a fire archon or tamed velociraptor. Your last companion is obviously the summoned debuff companion.
Aura of courage is an arguement, but never that much in my ACT-log and needs to be adjusted anyway since it´s one mayor factor of disbalance in this game- "lolset effect".
And last but not least I never run at 120 critseverity, since I do not drink 3 potions in a row to get there, no need to do so, my runs last 20-30min+ and my DO-DC never was top dps by far, I am a supporter.
Same as my striker and my tank don´t drink 3 potions to buff their critseverity, never did so, one is enough reagarding my striker and I take the one for free (wild storm).
Any DO DC here that drinks 3 potion in a tongrun to lift his critseverity towards 120% from 92%?
You end anyway at 1/10 of what that GWF dealt.
75% base, 12% from boons + 5% from offhandfeat, that´s what I got.
I also am not one of those 0,001% of player that run with maxed gear in NWO.
I know archons are the better buffs at least since that 0.5% was fixed, but there is no huge difference in picking a fire archon at 7%/2 or a Erinnye or a siegemaster, we talk about a pretty small difference, in case you do not run dread or vorp
Another great reason to not use plaguefire
Okay, fine we will only use 102% critical severity, which is the amount you said combined with the wild storm elixer. Because I still think it is foolish to exclude fire of the gods, I will still be including that. I came up with a +3.87% damage increase for erinyes with 102% crit severity, 30% combat advantage damage, and 10% damage that cannot crit. It comes out to 4.31% if I pretend all of my damage can crit. Is it really worth getting the erinyes over the siege master when in the best possible situation it will give me +0.31% more damage? I personally don't think so.
For a best in slot cleric that isn't using dread, vorpal or any potions it is still less than a +3.7% damage increase even if all of their damage could crit. This is because the combat advantage damage you can actually reach on a cleric is over 50%.
"You end anyway at 1/10 of what that GWF dealt."
So run the dungeon with no gear, companions, mounts or potions. You only need your main hand weapon to cast spells. Your damage doesn't matter anyways right?
and crit sev contributes to heals, if you care at all about heals. Whereas archons and siegemaster don't. If they ever make heals viable again, crit sev will become popular again as well.
The free companion is always better value. That doesn't make it better. If you are recommending companions to a new player erinyes is actually worse value. Just because you don't currently own anything better to put in the slot doesn't mean it is best in slot.
That's not even counting the fact that the value of a blue erinyes can pretty much never beat the value of a blue siege master.
I'm all for realistic math and for players performing well in roles that make the most sense for their classes, but I believe that dealing an appropriate amount of damage for one's role is an important goal.
Besides, not every primary DPS in an end-game dungeon run is capable of single-handedly winning the day, and if every support completely rejects responsibility for damage, there is likely to be a problem. Even if the party is high-functioning, that extra damage can be fantastic for accelerating trash kills and moving the pace along. A lot of players seem to drastically underestimate how much damage a DC (both AC and DO) can contribute while still providing significant power share and necessary buffs/debuffs.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game are not and will never be. My Combat Advantage is even not 40% on my DC and I a can´t imagine why and how I gain a 50% CA bonus, and that´s what about 99,9% of player in this game will allways look like.
My striker runs archons from what air is set in stone, about earth there were tests in the past that told about a pretty bad uptime depending on the encounter for sure. The fire archon only kicks in at 50%. I run a siegemaster on top with that sellsword like a lot of player do.
In the end the differece is not that big and that´s what I tried to point at, without any intend to discuss it until nausea
And no, I run a plaguefire since that´s what I got and it´s a good choice anyway, hard to argue what serves best if the dps I monitor in tong is maybe 1/20 of overall damage.
But yes if someone would give me that Dread I might use it, not sure if the 4% debuff and bonus-dps beats that stacking 3.5x3% in the sum concerning group dps. But if I do that math and recognize: " I need to deal >50% + damage with that Dread, to compensate a 4% vs a 10.5% debuff, since my part of that run is at best 5-6% of the dealt damage, I might stay with my plaguefire."
No I did not do the math.
I recommend a plaguefire > a Dread for >90% of player ingame since 99% of DO´s I met don´t have 100% crit at all and deal poor damage even running that dreadenchant. Only problem is that bug about fire of gods, wich is a big spoiler...
I also would agree about the advantage of archons, same as siege master, but if anyone asked me if he should invest >1mio AD into that fire archon having a Erinnyes allready, I´d say "No, I would not do so, since all you gonna do through mod 13 at bosses is BtS, DG, PoD and clap your hands .... except AD doesn´t matter at all."
"I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game are not and will never be."
mind showing me the source of your player stats? I am curious.
"I a can´t imagine why and how I gain a 50% CA bonus, and that´s what about 99,9% of player in this game"
So there are players out there who have better gear than best in slot. Could you explain that one to me?
I did not meet one DO IL12-17, that dealt a considerabele ammount of dps on bosses, if I compared his dps on a boss vs a GWF, GF, Hunter etc.
So if you say you build your DC as dps , I´d say fine , if someone tells me he bought sprites,I´d say fine go for it, 90% of player can´t perma-AA at 2. tong boss.
My answer do not base on a theoretical pov.
In practice NWO look like that to me, until now zero DO DC that was able to top a striker on bosses or get even near that dps, same as the average setup is not BIS at all.
If the DC was my only class, I might argue same way. But I run a striker too, so my DC has no interest in getting a dps class and never will focus on dps at the current state.
And if we talk about the small ammounts of player ingame that are able to run their DO as primary dps at tong, I´d say lucky one you are maybe the only player in this game that does.
You talk of that 0,1%, I don´t. The average player in NWO is not running speedruns, same as he does not kill Avatar of Orcus in 10 seconds.
NWO is nothing else than this atm: You are either a "buffing-slave" together with your 3 other mates, or you are the "master" that calls for buffs.
I really laugh , reading comments sometimes doing random runs.
GWF: " Low buff..slow group" (it could also have been a Hunter or TR)
But that´s the moment I´d like to see him pulling out his whip.
I did not understand what you point at exactly. I only say I can´t imagine how to reach 50% CA on a cleric, that´s what you pointed at, not me. I said about 99,9% in this game will not reach that ammount of CA with their cleric ever.
"I am not BIS, same as about 99,5% in this game"
"I said about 99,9% in this game will not reach that ammount of CA"
So, 0.5% of the players in the game are BIS, but only 0.1% have 50% combat advantage damage. So how are there 0.4% of the players in the game with BIS gear but yet don't have BIS combat advantage damage? That was my point.
"90% of player can´t perma-AA at 2. tong boss."
In my experience, any DC with a sigil of the devoted can perma-AA the 2nd boss for the entire duration of the sigil. Experienced DCs that can't perma-AA through the paralysis effect will wait to pop the sigil until after avatar runs out and the lightning+water has showed up, that way they can spam AA all the way through the lightning effect. Inexperience doesn't mean they can't do it, it just means they are inexperienced. Also, in a burn group, if you cannot perma-AA, you are basically saying that they cannot use their daily once or twice.
An anointed champion building for damage is probably doing something wrong, or was forced to run anointed champion using divine oracle gear. I am mainly talking about a divine oracle here, since anointed champion just simply shouldn't be building much damage.
"I only say I can´t imagine how to reach 50% CA on a cleric"
Here let me explain it
15% (base)
8.7% (1200 CA utility stat)
13% (23 CHA)
=36.7%
Okay weird thing, the simulator I was using I think calculates the underdark boon incorrectly. According to the simulator it works like this:
(1 + 36.7%) * (1 + 10%) - 1 = 50.37%
but I thought it worked like this:
36.7% * (1 + 10%) = 40.37%
Either way, this number easily exceeds the 30% I used in my original example. I did get confirmation that it is the 2nd, so hehe oops, it's only 40% (45% tops)
"And if we talk about the small ammounts of player ingame that are able to run their DO as primary dps at tong, I´d say lucky one you are maybe the only player in this game that does."
Who in the world would run their cleric as primary damage dealer? Okay, maybe I tried it a few times for laughs, but seriously. The point isn't to run as primary damage dealer, the point is to stack more damage onto the enemies faster. As a divine oracle, doing damage is basically free, since you don't need much of any gear to use your buffs. From this stand-point any amount of damage you deal is effectively increasing your party's damage, since it is damage they wouldn't have dealt anyways.
By this you can start with what percentage of the party's damage is yours and then try to get an idea of how much damage a specific item increases the party's damage. If you deal 5% (you said 1/20th right?) of your primary damage dealer's damage, I think you probably forgot to slot damage spells, and paingiver would look like this:
1,200,000,000 DPS
440,000,000 OP tank
120,000,000 Some other support I won't name because I don't want to get into another argument about it
80,000,000 AC DC
60,000,000 DO DC
I honestly don't know how you could only deal 60 million damage in an entire ToNG run when a single daunting light should deal over a million each time you use it. But hey, if your divine oracle does less than the average anointed champion, we can use that as an example.
So a flask of potency adds 7.5% critical severity. Lets assume you only have 50% crit chance just so this adds as little damage as possible. That should be around 1% more damage for yourself. Even with you dealing basically 0 damage in a group, a flask of potency is worth 0.03% more damage for your party. If you are willing to sacrifice all of your party damage for some time AP gain, then why aren't you also sacrificing all of your AD for this tiny party buff?
In a more realistic party makeup, a divine oracle should be dealing damage closer to this:
1,000,000,000 DPS
350,000,000 DO DC
350,000,000 OP tank
120,000,000 Some other support I won't name because I don't want to get into another argument about it
80,000,000 AC DC
With 100% crit the flask of potency should add closer to 2.7% more damage, and because of your higher damage total the flask of potency is now a ~0.5% party buff. Is it worth it? Depends on your budget I guess. Is it worthless? Only if a ~0.5% party buff is also worthless.