Thanks to "loadouts", characters can program DPS and debuff, depending on the situation they find themselves in...
IF a player takes the time and know how to use the loadouts which it appears a great many players, particularly newer, below 70 players don't.
I can only speak for myself, but I found that until I found a guild most things in this game were "learn by error". This included how to best use loadouts and builds. If you could see how my first character was built you would laugh and cry at the same time.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
Free respecs do wonders
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Did you inspect the low IL players? At last every second of them has companions/ gear from pack, class artifacts and hand me downs from other chars. I recognize the setup, bc my praying alts are geared the same way. The differences are, that I did it, so I can run weeklies, if I ever bother to unlock them and furthermore, that my praying alts are better geared, then 90% of these players.
I know, that not every player can dump a few 100k RP on an alt for fun, but it would be an investment in your future time spent in a dungeon, if you gear up just a little. It would take 20 minutes, to get a decent build, but for some reason these ppl prefer to waste other ppls and their own time to spending some time, RPs and ADs on their alts populating RS and RD.
Last night I ran an RQ with a toon that was so fast and so well geared they were able to one shot everything and killed the bosses in two or three hits. Until the final boss, where they had to wait for us, the other two of us just ran through an empty dungeon. So as you would expect, in the end one toon had millions of damage and we other two had near to nothing. Are we free loaders? Should we be kicked because we were not as fast?
The lack of contribution was not by choice keep in mind. I would have gladly helped but they clearly didn't need nor want my help. And also keep in mind I have soloed that same dungeon for RP because I can't go into the Epic RQ yet.
I think the assumption that all those who are undergeared or slower are doing so because they want to is faulty. I think the real free loaders are those who either AFK for most of the time then run to catch up at the end for their RAD.
Please explain to us how, when a player voluntarily clicks on the random dungeon tab, then again voluntarily clicks on the tab to join a party, anyone is being “forced” to do something?
Players want to run random dungeons for a quick and easy way go get astral diamonds instead of having do a grind for salvageable items or whatever in more difficult areas, so they willingly and as I said previously “voluntarily” choose to run the much easier, quicker random dungeons… then try to complain about other players “not doing anything”, being “freeloaders” and “leechers”.
Some folks want quick and easy astral diamonds instead of having to do more arduous things to get their astral diamonds… well it seems the price for choosing to do things the quick and easy way is more experienced, better equipped players having to “carry” less experienced and poorly equipped players along with them… but the reality of it is, no one is being “forced” to do anything.
Please explain to us how, when a player voluntarily clicks on the random dungeon tab, then again voluntarily clicks on the tab to join a party, anyone is being “forced” to do something?
Players want to run random dungeons for a quick and easy way go get astral diamonds instead of having do a grind for salvageable items or whatever in more difficult areas, so they willingly and as I said previously “voluntarily” choose to run the much easier, quicker random dungeons… then try to complain about other players “not doing anything”, being “freeloaders” and “leechers”.
Some folks want quick and easy astral diamonds instead of having to do more arduous things to get their astral diamonds… well it seems the price for choosing to do things the quick and easy way is more experienced, better equipped players having to “carry” less experienced and poorly equipped players along with them… but the reality of it is, no one is being “forced” to do anything.
The game mechanic intends for players, to use random que. Sure no one forces you to play. You can always stop playing or look for another game, but this is no valid argument for design flaws, that force legit players to waste their time bc of AFK players, leechers and exploiters.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
You can get most of you daily rAD through a random dungeon, a random skirmish, and a random epic dungeon. Keep in mind that a lot of characters cannot do a random epic due to not having the necessary unlocks/everfrost resistance. The epics are where the salvage drops. Now they can queue for a specific dungeon, same as always, but it seems anyone really looking at doing a specific dungeon already has a full party of friends/guildmates/allies.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
1. If you join a random dungeon or skirmish then the option to change characters is made unavailable until you leave the instance via the entrance or exit. This would stop the current load/dc/wait and rejoin problem.
Why would legit players want to change to toons in the middle of content that they have chosen to run??
2. This will move the botters to have to be in the instance. Counter this with Allowing the group the option to kick due to not moving or contributing after 2 mins so you can still get rid of the bot before the end of the run.
3. Change when rewards are given so they only drop into inventory on successful completion of the skirmish or dungeon AND also on leaving via the exit portal not on opening the chest or killing the last boss.
4. If someone goes afk/dc then close the instance when the last active player leaves. This used to happen, not sure if it still does or not.
5. For votes to continue, like IG or SH Marauders, randomise the yes and no vote so sometimes it's 1 and sometimes it's 2. Would make it harder to program a bot so players have to read the options.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
I mostly agree with you.
If a player can get into an instance through the random (the game allows it) then they are not under-geared and are not a problem so long as they actively attempt to contribute to the run. Which tends to align with your last paragraph.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The game mechanic intends for players, to use random que. Sure no one forces you to play. You can always stop playing or look for another game, but this is no valid argument for design flaws, that force legit players to waste their time bc of AFK players, leechers and exploiters.
None of us that are average players knows whether another player is actually AFK or having connectivity problems - unless that person tells everyone "I'm going away from the keyboard"... which has happened to me because one player was upset because mobs were being fought instead of run past.
The game mechanics intends people to use random dungeon queues - If They Want To - if they choose to, instead of farming for salvageable gear, etc., no one is being "forced" to run random dungeons which was my primary point.
And as you said, people can always stop playing – but as I already mentioned and as I suspect a lot of the developers also believe, that's not likely to happen especially for anyone who already has a lot of time, effort and money invested in this game.
With a little nod to reality, no “legitimate player” wastes their time because of actual AFK characters since ultimately all party members will be getting their reward at the end and do have the option of removing an AFK player after a grace time period – “Wasting time because of AKF players” or "leeches", to me, seems to be code for “I’m not getting my astral diamonds fast enough”.
And when it comes to the “exploits” you mentioned, wouldn’t running an 18-20 level dungeon like the Cloak Tower, with a higher level character - in minutes 5-6 minutes instead of the suggested 15 minutes also be considered “an exploit” - which is defined as "to make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)"?... albeit not one a lot of people tend to complain about.
In the end everyone who remains in the dungeon gets paid so as I already mentioned, the real complaint seems to be how quick and easy that experience was for a lot of the people who are doing the complaining.
I think you are missing the point completely here.
You have some fairly basic expectations about the people in content with you. That they will participate, that they will progress through it, that they are capable of doing something in the content. These are not massive intellectual leaps, show up and do the content, be capable of contributing, dont waste other peoples time. Freeloaders dont do this.
No one is talking about players who are actually playing here (aka legit players). We are talking about players who are acting in ways that should be defined as scummy behaviour to exploiting mechanics to actual full on cheating. I will give you some examples.
Players with item levels too low who cant kill or survive combat in that content, problem. Yes, we will argue about what is under geared and what is just terribad player but warning signs are higher levels with all white gear or still using starting gear or unfilled item slots.
Player who sits at start in dungeons for a few minutes before moving, problem. Same with the trailing bots who sit behind people doing the content.
Player deliberately disconnecting or swapping characters, problem.
Player intentionally leaving the content, problem.
Players in skirmishes dying and not returning, problem.
Players in skirmishes doing no damage or almost no damage, problem.
Players in skirmishes not even bothering to enter the killing zone, problem.
Players going afk during content. problem. You do get players who decide to go do something irl instead of dropping and this is amazingly annoying now that you cant kick them quickly.
With the above points in mind...
Any level player who is slow and does no damage in a dungeon because other players are faster or better, walks to the end in a reasonable time, no one has a problem.
Any level player in a skirmish who is killing things, or at least trying to, no one has a problem.
The points about carrying players or being forced to do content for them are not about players who are trying but are just terribad players, these are comments about people who are intentionally abusing the mechanics or are running characters that are woefully under geared for content.
Actually no one is responsible for the “expectations” of another player, regardless of what they are.
Players will participate (or not) progress in a timely manner (or not) and if how another player plays, does not come up to the expectations of someone else, it is the player who holds those expectations problem – no body else’s.
Yes it would be very nice if every other player in a random dungeon played in a manner I personally approved of – but that’s not realistic, nor does it even make sense to try to make a case for it.
None of us as average players have anyway of knowing if a person “intentionally disconnects” or is actually Away From the Keyboard or is having connectivity problems the same with a player who just stops moving… We can have out suspicious and speculate but suspicion and speculation are not always reality.
As for other players “not doing damage” in a dungeon or skirmish, because they have a low level character or inadequate gear, welcome to the random dungeon queue where not every player will necessarily have the appropriate character level or gear level for that content… and again no average player has any way to know whether their low level character with inadequate gear is intentional or just the way the dice landed after the roll.
It’s like rain at times, a lot of people are unhappy about it and some do a lot of complaining but it is what it is… you either soldier on and do the best you can under less than favorable circumstances, or you stay home and do nothing.
As to what actually constitutes a “terrible player”, that’s pretty much a personal judgment call based on our individual expectations of how other players should play and speaking for myself, I choose not dwell on something like that if I can help it.
If a player can get into an instance through the random (the game allows it) then they are not under-geared and are not a problem so long as they actively attempt to contribute to the run. Which tends to align with your last paragraph.
Let me please remind you that these forums exist for players to give feedback, and feedback is generally negative in nature
Just as a few members of the player community are fond of admonishing others the tow the line regardless of what changes are thrown our way, the purpose of posting opinions here is to provide negativity in hopes of making things better, so nobody needs you guys to tell forum members their problems are stupid
People that post their issue here are just fulfilling the expectations of why the forums exist, so by your own your own rules, you should just stand back and deal with it happening
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
Feedback (constructive criticism) should be both positive and negative as needed so long as it is constructive.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I've been taught there is a real and difinative difference between complaining and criticizing...
Something along these lines:
From Merriam-Webster: Criticize puts more attention on the thing being criticized. Complain puts more attention on the person complaining. When you criticize something, you're saying "Here's what's wrong with it," but when you complain you're saying "I'm not happy about this."
*The random dungeons throw players of different character levels, gear score levels and play styles into the same environment, that's criticism.
*Because of that I (or other players) 'have to carry' lesser equipped characters, 'can't kick out disconnected or AFK characters', 'can't open the gate', 'have to wait', 'takes longer', 'forced to do content', etc., those are complaints.
At least by my way of thinking...
I still like the random queue changes, yes occasionally I am personally inconvenienced by players who don’t play in a manner that meets my personal "expectations", but that is not the dungeon's fault.
As long as a character is participating and progressing, eventually the results are the same… the last gate is opened, the final battle is fought and everyone collects their reward.
If I don’t think a character is moving fast enough, too fast, engaging or not engaging mobs, doing too much or not enough damage - that’s on me.
I've recently been having issues with not being able to kick afk player players after 15 minute periods. its not the other person voting no, the vote sequence doesn't even come up.
This is abuse of the system. Every time I see a player disconnect and not come back within a reasonable time I report for botting. It is the only thing we can do at this point.
What I would like to see is an update to the kick system where if you select the option, player has disconnected, it does not apply the 3 hour kick penalty and it automatically kicks the player. That option should only be listed if said player is disconnected for more than 2 minutes.
Legitimate players NEED tools to help combat abusing players.
Taking disconnects, if you are disconnected for time X and the run takes time Y then you lose X/Y of the AD reward. If you are disconnected for five minutes in a eight minute run you lose 5/8 of the AD so you would get 37.5% of the AD you would normally get and 62.5% would be lost --- Same goes for people who leave the dungeon or stay dead or dont enter skirmish area, they lose AD
Yes, this will impact legitimate disconnects but I would argue this does not matter as not doing the content is not doing the content no matter the reason.
A basic idea here would be to set the AD rewarded to 1/10th for each 500 item level you have in normal dungeons and skirmishes, do the same for epic but set the base at 7000 instead of zero, so at 7500 you get 1/10th normal, 8500 you get 3/10th's normal. As a side effect this would provide an actual incentive for people to get better gear.
Currently there are seemingly no punishments for abusing the game/others (other than a "timeout" which is easily circumvented by switching to another character).
Feel like there should be a AD penalty for the next RQ completed (on the account?) for those that abandon a RQ as well.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Legitimate players NEED tools to help combat abusing players.
Simply reporting isn't working.
True, but keep in mind that it is a relatively new change and still a work in progress.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".
Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.
Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.
However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.
I'm sorry for taking so long to respond. I wanted to play more dungeons to be absolutely certain that I could do as you suggested.
I and many other team-mates (even fellow guild members) have tried this and not had any success. But what I have noticed is that if a player has genuinely disconnected and remained completely disconnected uninterrupted for ten minutes, they are automatically removed from the group and re-enforcements can then be requested. However, if they sporadically reconnect/disconnect, this resets the timer (so to speak) so they can't be vote-kicked because "they have not been in the instance long enough".
I will make a confession here:
I was recently in a random queue that put me in Lair of the Pirate King with two bots.
After fighting singlehandedly to the last boss checkpoint with one pacing bot behind me and the other bot standing unresponsive at the second boss location, there was no way to trigger the last fight. Admittedly, I rage-quit. I didn't disconnect but logged out of the game completely.
I took a break and grabbed a bite to eat.
Eight minutes later, I logged back in to find my character still in Lair of the Pirate King with the two same bots. One bot was at the finish pacing back and forth. The other disconnected two minutes later which triggered the last fight. I single-handedly beat the boss and got out of there.
The point being?
My character was still in the dungeon after being logged out for eight minutes. The disconnected bot was removed at the ten-minute mark. If there is a five minute disconnect setting, its not working.
Having had Internet connection issues and being disconnected from regular dungeon runs myself, I can empathize with the grace-period for the sake of any legitimate player. And this would not be such a problem in the lower dungeons as companions can fill the gap quite nicely. However, in the Spellplague Caverns and the Caverns of Karrundax, it is a problem especially when teamed up with an undergeared low-leveled player who may not have a healer companion. Having not done an Epic dungeon yet, I have no idea if this issue is happening there, but can only guess what a pain that would be!
May I make a suggestion?
Can you introduce something like a friendly npc spawn that jumps into a fight help along side those players still connected, then disappears when the disconnected player returns?
For example:
Player notification: "Champion of Torm has been summoned!"
(Nothing game-breaking, but something just enough to meet a baseline stat player or the minimum dungeon level requirement and who can also get his butt kicked like a regular player.)
The disconnect way to abuse is has-been. They use signpost now and wait to be kicked so they dont take leaver penalty. Happened to me and 2 guildies in random epic, we got fbi,the other two people didnt like it apparently, so used signpost and pif paf poof, they were in Siege farming vouchers while we were waiting at Hati to trigger the door.
You might be fine with doing the content for characters who cant do it for themselves. I am definitely not fine with this.
I think this is an important qualifier that spunkmeier is making. (Bolding added by me)
Last night I did a run with a GWF who was uber-fast. She was like the Flash. Each time the two of us caught up she had killed 99% of everything. So I just ran to keep up and for the most part we got to the end just slightly behind her. But had she desired to, she could have waited and let me clear a mob or room. Not a problem. I was just slower.
In my exchanges with spunkmeier I see the point he is trying to make. If I am running toward the end, dealing with what I do run into. If I am ready and willing to do my part, then spunkmeier is ok that he is faster and kills most of the stuff. At least this is what I have gotten from our conversations/posts.
The key issue is not slower players, it is those who come into the dungeon expecting who ever shows up with them from the queue to do the work so they can collect the RAD. Bots, AFKers, and purposeful disconnectors, are what he is calling freeloaders and I have seen a marked increase in these three types as well.
-snip- I get irritated by freeloaders and cheaters. I post about it. The topic is 'cant get the freeloaders out' so comments about how freeloaders impact you are very relevant here.
Freeloaders are wasting my limited playing time, and wasting a lot of players limited playing time. We dont like waiting and doing nothing because of freeloaders, it is no wonder people go play something else instead (although more have probably left due to other changes or random queue in general).
The freeloaders are not participating and not progressing in anything approaching an acceptable way. This is the problem.
You might be fine with waiting for five to ten extra minutes every few runs or having to wait until the fifteen minute mark to kick someone but many people really dont like this wasted time...I know I really dont like it.
You might be fine with doing the content for characters who cant do it for themselves. I am definitely not fine with this.
If the freeloaders cannot fight anything in a dungeon without dying then they are definitely not participating. Not happy about this either.
I understand you getting irritated by people you consider freeloaders and cheaters... I understand how you believe freeloaders are wasting your limited playing time and I understand how you (although you said "we" speaking for others) don't like waiting on other players... but this game and the random dungeons aren't all about "you" and what you want or even a group of 'you's'.
So far we've seen lower level characters with inadequate gear referred to as "freeloaders", "leechers", and "cheaters" - whether or not that is actually the case...
We've seen people who are disconnected or who have stopped during game play being accused of doing those things intentionally - whether or not that is actually the case...
Yes, freeloaders, cheaters and the intentionally disconnected are a problem – but as I already mentioned, how do we as just regular players know if a person is actually freeloading, cheating or intentionally disconnected?
And again with the "limited playing time" complaint...
If real world responsibilities limit anyone's playing time consider this, that is the case for just about everyone playing Neverwinter and those real world responsibilities should always take precedence over playing a game…
If someone has 20-50 characters and they only get to run 11 of them through random dungeons, it’s not going to be the end of the world and as for me, I’m not going to try to push the blame off on anyone else for not living up to my “expectations” of how I think they should play.
As for having to wait for other players, the next time you queue for a random dungeon take a look at the “estimated play time” in the information screen…
The last time I checked (just a few minutes ago) the estimated play time for a random dungeon was “30 minutes” – if you find yourself having to wait longer than 30 minutes on any player then you might have a case for others holding up the game and not progressing – until then you are charging others with not progressing to your personal satisfaction.
True, but keep in mind that it is a relatively new change and still a work in progress.
True that
Posted something similar in another thread (about time being needed to tweak). Players still need tools to combat abusing players in general (Heroic Encounter AFK farmers/Event AFK farmers, etc.).
The freeloaders are not participating and not progressing in anything approaching an acceptable way. This is the problem.
You might be fine with waiting for five to ten extra minutes every few runs or having to wait until the fifteen minute mark to kick someone but many people really dont like this wasted time...I know I really dont like it.
You might be fine with doing the content for characters who cant do it for themselves. I am definitely not fine with this.
If the freeloaders cannot fight anything in a dungeon without dying then they are definitely not participating. Not happy about this either.
^ Spot on the new blouse ^
These things happen frequently and the legitimate players are currently backed against the wall...
So far we've seen lower level characters with inadequate gear referred to as "freeloaders", "leechers", and "cheaters" - whether or not that is actually the case...
We've seen people who are disconnected or who have stopped during game play being accused of doing those things intentionally - whether or not that is actually the case...
If a character is under geared such as by having: - a level higher than about 20. - lower level common equipment (in higher level range content). - empty slots (other than artifacts and equipment their level range doesn't have available). - appearing in higher level content (especially skirmishes).
With any or a combination of the above qualities, how can they effectively participate?
If a character "disconnects" how can they effectively participate? As previously mentioned, for any punishments/deterrents that may come in the future to be effective the legitimate disconnects will have to be actioned against along with those that intentionally disconnect or the abusers will be shielded. If players legitimately have connection problems they can send a ticket to CS who can review their account and see when the "disconnects" occur, how often, etc. and the results can be passed to the developers who can possibly tweak the system to be more acceptable of seemingly legitimate connection issues.
If a player stops how can they effectively participate? Stopping for a moment then proceeding to continue on with the group to complete the content is fine for the most part though frequently stopping or stopping and not moving again until the end of the content is a problem. When a player accepts a RQ they need to have the intention AND capability to effectively participate, that is not a lot to ask and is essentially the bare minimum any legitimate player would/should expect of other players.
Saw someone suggest something along the lines of if a player abandons a RQ/switches characters that upon RQ'ing with that character again they get that same content they abandoned/switched on, that and or they got a "RAD penalty" where the next time(s) they would be granted RAD it would be reduced (similar to how players gain RAD bonus, they would gain RAD penalty?). Something like those things would definitely make abusing RQ in those ways less profitable/easy, especially for repeat offenders.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Update: I was in a Caverns of Karrundax run today and had a player immediately head to the campfire and disconnect. The other player and I were able to successfully vote-kick them at the five-minute mark with no apparent error notification/glitch blocking us. At least that issue is fixed.
As regular players we don't even have a way to know if a disconnected person disconnected intentionally or through no fault of their own - if they are actually AFK or if they have lag or again having connectivity issues. So I certainly don't think we should suggest another player be "punished" for something that for all intent and purposes may be beyond their control or unintentional.
Also to consider kicking a person out of a party because that player is not progressing, participating, geared, or inflicting sufficient damage on mobs – I have a problem with that… I don't believe that we as players should suggest anyone be "punished" for their choice of play style whether it be their choice of gear or enchantments or how much damage they deal.
A lot of what I keep seeing is a few players saying they object to how other players aren't inflicting enough damage, don’t have the proper gear, aren’t wearing the appropriately slotted enchantments and because they disagree with how a player is equipped, moving, enhanced or dealing damage, someone suggests that player is a "freeloader", "leech" or "not participating effectively".
All of those things are judgment calls... one player trying to determine if another player is moving, fighting, or equipped to their personal satisfaction.
As far as I’m concerned the only legitimate reason to consider kicking out another player, is if they remain disconnected or appear to be away from the key board for a specific period of time – and that feature is already available and appears to be functioning now.
Comments
I know, that not every player can dump a few 100k RP on an alt for fun, but it would be an investment in your future time spent in a dungeon, if you gear up just a little. It would take 20 minutes, to get a decent build, but for some reason these ppl prefer to waste other ppls and their own time to spending some time, RPs and ADs on their alts populating RS and RD.
The lack of contribution was not by choice keep in mind. I would have gladly helped but they clearly didn't need nor want my help. And also keep in mind I have soloed that same dungeon for RP because I can't go into the Epic RQ yet.
I think the assumption that all those who are undergeared or slower are doing so because they want to is faulty. I think the real free loaders are those who either AFK for most of the time then run to catch up at the end for their RAD.
Players want to run random dungeons for a quick and easy way go get astral diamonds instead of having do a grind for salvageable items or whatever in more difficult areas, so they willingly and as I said previously “voluntarily” choose to run the much easier, quicker random dungeons… then try to complain about other players “not doing anything”, being “freeloaders” and “leechers”.
Some folks want quick and easy astral diamonds instead of having to do more arduous things to get their astral diamonds… well it seems the price for choosing to do things the quick and easy way is more experienced, better equipped players having to “carry” less experienced and poorly equipped players along with them… but the reality of it is, no one is being “forced” to do anything.
1. If you join a random dungeon or skirmish then the option to change characters is made unavailable until you leave the instance via the entrance or exit. This would stop the current load/dc/wait and rejoin problem.
Why would legit players want to change to toons in the middle of content that they have chosen to run??
2. This will move the botters to have to be in the instance. Counter this with Allowing the group the option to kick due to not moving or contributing after 2 mins so you can still get rid of the bot before the end of the run.
3. Change when rewards are given so they only drop into inventory on successful completion of the skirmish or dungeon AND also on leaving via the exit portal not on opening the chest or killing the last boss.
4. If someone goes afk/dc then close the instance when the last active player leaves. This used to happen, not sure if it still does or not.
5. For votes to continue, like IG or SH Marauders, randomise the yes and no vote so sometimes it's 1 and sometimes it's 2. Would make it harder to program a bot so players have to read the options.
If a player can get into an instance through the random (the game allows it) then they are not under-geared and are not a problem so long as they actively attempt to contribute to the run. Which tends to align with your last paragraph.
The game mechanics intends people to use random dungeon queues - If They Want To - if they choose to, instead of farming for salvageable gear, etc., no one is being "forced" to run random dungeons which was my primary point.
And as you said, people can always stop playing – but as I already mentioned and as I suspect a lot of the developers also believe, that's not likely to happen especially for anyone who already has a lot of time, effort and money invested in this game.
With a little nod to reality, no “legitimate player” wastes their time because of actual AFK characters since ultimately all party members will be getting their reward at the end and do have the option of removing an AFK player after a grace time period – “Wasting time because of AKF players” or "leeches", to me, seems to be code for “I’m not getting my astral diamonds fast enough”.
And when it comes to the “exploits” you mentioned, wouldn’t running an 18-20 level dungeon like the Cloak Tower, with a higher level character - in minutes 5-6 minutes instead of the suggested 15 minutes also be considered “an exploit” - which is defined as "to make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)"?... albeit not one a lot of people tend to complain about.
In the end everyone who remains in the dungeon gets paid so as I already mentioned, the real complaint seems to be how quick and easy that experience was for a lot of the people who are doing the complaining. Actually no one is responsible for the “expectations” of another player, regardless of what they are.
Players will participate (or not) progress in a timely manner (or not) and if how another player plays, does not come up to the expectations of someone else, it is the player who holds those expectations problem – no body else’s.
Yes it would be very nice if every other player in a random dungeon played in a manner I personally approved of – but that’s not realistic, nor does it even make sense to try to make a case for it.
None of us as average players have anyway of knowing if a person “intentionally disconnects” or is actually Away From the Keyboard or is having connectivity problems the same with a player who just stops moving… We can have out suspicious and speculate but suspicion and speculation are not always reality.
As for other players “not doing damage” in a dungeon or skirmish, because they have a low level character or inadequate gear, welcome to the random dungeon queue where not every player will necessarily have the appropriate character level or gear level for that content… and again no average player has any way to know whether their low level character with inadequate gear is intentional or just the way the dice landed after the roll.
It’s like rain at times, a lot of people are unhappy about it and some do a lot of complaining but it is what it is… you either soldier on and do the best you can under less than favorable circumstances, or you stay home and do nothing.
As to what actually constitutes a “terrible player”, that’s pretty much a personal judgment call based on our individual expectations of how other players should play and speaking for myself, I choose not dwell on something like that if I can help it. Yeah, that...
Let me please remind you that these forums exist for players to give feedback, and feedback is generally negative in nature
Just as a few members of the player community are fond of admonishing others the tow the line regardless of what changes are thrown our way, the purpose of posting opinions here is to provide negativity in hopes of making things better, so nobody needs you guys to tell forum members their problems are stupid
People that post their issue here are just fulfilling the expectations of why the forums exist, so by your own your own rules, you should just stand back and deal with it happening
Something along these lines:
From Merriam-Webster: Criticize puts more attention on the thing being criticized. Complain puts more attention on the person complaining. When you criticize something, you're saying "Here's what's wrong with it," but when you complain you're saying "I'm not happy about this."
*The random dungeons throw players of different character levels, gear score levels and play styles into the same environment, that's criticism.
*Because of that I (or other players) 'have to carry' lesser equipped characters, 'can't kick out disconnected or AFK characters', 'can't open the gate', 'have to wait', 'takes longer', 'forced to do content', etc., those are complaints.
At least by my way of thinking...
I still like the random queue changes, yes occasionally I am personally inconvenienced by players who don’t play in a manner that meets my personal "expectations", but that is not the dungeon's fault.
As long as a character is participating and progressing, eventually the results are the same… the last gate is opened, the final battle is fought and everyone collects their reward.
If I don’t think a character is moving fast enough, too fast, engaging or not engaging mobs, doing too much or not enough damage - that’s on me.
Simply reporting isn't working. BOOM!!! Currently there are seemingly no punishments for abusing the game/others (other than a "timeout" which is easily circumvented by switching to another character).
Feel like there should be a AD penalty for the next RQ completed (on the account?) for those that abandon a RQ as well.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I and many other team-mates (even fellow guild members) have tried this and not had any success. But what I have noticed is that if a player has genuinely disconnected and remained completely disconnected uninterrupted for ten minutes, they are automatically removed from the group and re-enforcements can then be requested. However, if they sporadically reconnect/disconnect, this resets the timer (so to speak) so they can't be vote-kicked because "they have not been in the instance long enough".
I will make a confession here:
I was recently in a random queue that put me in Lair of the Pirate King with two bots.
After fighting singlehandedly to the last boss checkpoint with one pacing bot behind me and the other bot standing unresponsive at the second boss location, there was no way to trigger the last fight. Admittedly, I rage-quit. I didn't disconnect but logged out of the game completely.
I took a break and grabbed a bite to eat.
Eight minutes later, I logged back in to find my character still in Lair of the Pirate King with the two same bots. One bot was at the finish pacing back and forth. The other disconnected two minutes later which triggered the last fight. I single-handedly beat the boss and got out of there.
The point being?
My character was still in the dungeon after being logged out for eight minutes. The disconnected bot was removed at the ten-minute mark. If there is a five minute disconnect setting, its not working.
Having had Internet connection issues and being disconnected from regular dungeon runs myself, I can empathize with the grace-period for the sake of any legitimate player. And this would not be such a problem in the lower dungeons as companions can fill the gap quite nicely. However, in the Spellplague Caverns and the Caverns of Karrundax, it is a problem especially when teamed up with an undergeared low-leveled player who may not have a healer companion. Having not done an Epic dungeon yet, I have no idea if this issue is happening there, but can only guess what a pain that would be!
May I make a suggestion?
Can you introduce something like a friendly npc spawn that jumps into a fight help along side those players still connected, then disappears when the disconnected player returns?
For example:
Player notification: "Champion of Torm has been summoned!"
(Nothing game-breaking, but something just enough to meet a baseline stat player or the minimum dungeon level requirement and who can also get his butt kicked like a regular player.)
Last night I did a run with a GWF who was uber-fast. She was like the Flash. Each time the two of us caught up she had killed 99% of everything. So I just ran to keep up and for the most part we got to the end just slightly behind her. But had she desired to, she could have waited and let me clear a mob or room. Not a problem. I was just slower.
In my exchanges with spunkmeier I see the point he is trying to make. If I am running toward the end, dealing with what I do run into. If I am ready and willing to do my part, then spunkmeier is ok that he is faster and kills most of the stuff. At least this is what I have gotten from our conversations/posts.
The key issue is not slower players, it is those who come into the dungeon expecting who ever shows up with them from the queue to do the work so they can collect the RAD. Bots, AFKers, and purposeful disconnectors, are what he is calling freeloaders and I have seen a marked increase in these three types as well.
So far we've seen lower level characters with inadequate gear referred to as "freeloaders", "leechers", and "cheaters" - whether or not that is actually the case...
We've seen people who are disconnected or who have stopped during game play being accused of doing those things intentionally - whether or not that is actually the case...
Yes, freeloaders, cheaters and the intentionally disconnected are a problem – but as I already mentioned, how do we as just regular players know if a person is actually freeloading, cheating or intentionally disconnected?
And again with the "limited playing time" complaint...
If real world responsibilities limit anyone's playing time consider this, that is the case for just about everyone playing Neverwinter and those real world responsibilities should always take precedence over playing a game…
If someone has 20-50 characters and they only get to run 11 of them through random dungeons, it’s not going to be the end of the world and as for me, I’m not going to try to push the blame off on anyone else for not living up to my “expectations” of how I think they should play.
As for having to wait for other players, the next time you queue for a random dungeon take a look at the “estimated play time” in the information screen…
The last time I checked (just a few minutes ago) the estimated play time for a random dungeon was “30 minutes” – if you find yourself having to wait longer than 30 minutes on any player then you might have a case for others holding up the game and not progressing – until then you are charging others with not progressing to your personal satisfaction.
Posted something similar in another thread (about time being needed to tweak). Players still need tools to combat abusing players in general (Heroic Encounter AFK farmers/Event AFK farmers, etc.). ^ Spot on the new blouse ^
These things happen frequently and the legitimate players are currently backed against the wall... If a character is under geared such as by having:
- a level higher than about 20.
- lower level common equipment (in higher level range content).
- empty slots (other than artifacts and equipment their level range doesn't have available).
- appearing in higher level content (especially skirmishes).
With any or a combination of the above qualities, how can they effectively participate?
If a character "disconnects" how can they effectively participate? As previously mentioned, for any punishments/deterrents that may come in the future to be effective the legitimate disconnects will have to be actioned against along with those that intentionally disconnect or the abusers will be shielded. If players legitimately have connection problems they can send a ticket to CS who can review their account and see when the "disconnects" occur, how often, etc. and the results can be passed to the developers who can possibly tweak the system to be more acceptable of seemingly legitimate connection issues.
If a player stops how can they effectively participate? Stopping for a moment then proceeding to continue on with the group to complete the content is fine for the most part though frequently stopping or stopping and not moving again until the end of the content is a problem. When a player accepts a RQ they need to have the intention AND capability to effectively participate, that is not a lot to ask and is essentially the bare minimum any legitimate player would/should expect of other players.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Thank you!
Also to consider kicking a person out of a party because that player is not progressing, participating, geared, or inflicting sufficient damage on mobs – I have a problem with that… I don't believe that we as players should suggest anyone be "punished" for their choice of play style whether it be their choice of gear or enchantments or how much damage they deal.
A lot of what I keep seeing is a few players saying they object to how other players aren't inflicting enough damage, don’t have the proper gear, aren’t wearing the appropriately slotted enchantments and because they disagree with how a player is equipped, moving, enhanced or dealing damage, someone suggests that player is a "freeloader", "leech" or "not participating effectively".
All of those things are judgment calls... one player trying to determine if another player is moving, fighting, or equipped to their personal satisfaction.
As far as I’m concerned the only legitimate reason to consider kicking out another player, is if they remain disconnected or appear to be away from the key board for a specific period of time – and that feature is already available and appears to be functioning now.