test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

My take on the "2DC nerf"

24

Comments

  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I think the reason people become defensive on changes is because of a history of reactive nerfs. Like I said before, if there was a change that all duplicate buffs/debuffs no longer stack people would be accepting of that, when changes are directed at a certain class then people fill targeted. People care about being nerfed because they've spent a lot of time and resources to maximize their build to only have it removed with 0 compensation. So in the example of DO nerf if you increase dps to counter it, then people don't get as upset. Which was what they did with the last DC rework they provided a carrot.

    I don't have all the answers. Somethings that should be given priority is (sticking with TONG for examples)

    Adjustments to lightning so that it cannot single handedly remove the need for AOE focused builds in party or multiple dps roles. We rely on Lightning to clear zombie spawns on orcus and to clear souls on Ras Nsi. I'm pretty confident from a design perspective the intention was an AOE build to focus zombies while using the middle curse. On the final boss the intention would have been to have 3 dps characters turn to clear souls on spawn (3 souls, 3 dpsrs).

    Adjusting the rewards on Hero's Accord to provide benefit to queuing this method over private queue. This needs to function as a carrot to forgo the 2 tank 2 dc meta. Even if its replaced by an MOF, SW, or HR. Which btw all the classes are squishy making protection (traditional healer and tank roles) all the more important. One thing people ignore about the current meta is how tanky all these classes are DC, GF, OP, GWF are the tankiest classes in the game reducing the attention required for protection.

    Control needs to become an option, I'm all for cc immune bosses, but control needs to be viable for mobs. We don't need to make pulling the whole dungeon, grabbing them all up into a singularity and melting them in a stack a thing but we should be able to use controls effectively at a per mob level. Heck I wouldn't mind seeing controls have some relation to stats. We have a control stat which impacts how long a control lasts (and in theory can be stacked higher for more effectiveness against tougher characters (higher control resist)) but with control immunities the stat is not effective. You can even make a thing like singularity scale to stats so a strong CW can suck up 10 adds vs a weak CW doing 4. I don't know the answer but I know control needs to be reintroduced to the game.

    TR needs to return to the state of top single target dps. TR is a glass cannon and should have the benefit of damage to go with the negative of needing more protection. Things should scale along that line in both the aoe and single target categories.

    Remove mark as providing instant combat advantage. Mark should be an agro tool, positioning should provide combat advantage. We could argue that certain spells should give combat advantage as a result of hidden or masked attacks. Mark providing combat advantage is just lazy.

    Diminishing Returns. Diminishing Returns is what keeps games competitive and provides incentive to branch out your investment in stats. It also narrows the gap between Max/Min builds and merely okay builds and requires more thoughtful consideration in how you develop your characters. Whether your talking how super high power stacking impacts weapon enchant effectiveness, the positives of having 4xSupport classes in your meta design (DR on debuffs and buffs), or not investing in defense at all the impact of not having a diminishing return has never been more evident in Neverwinter with the exception of a few bugs that allowed power to grow exponentially and result in one shotting bosses. Diminishing Returns even helps devs hide some of the power creep and exploits that may occur because a failure to catch something in testing doesn't present itself as an exploit do to limited effectiveness.

    Couple of things I'm not sure about but intrigued by are

    The idea of queuing as a role into dungeons (once again not my idea, I saw it posted on the forums and liked it, I can't recall who else I'd give them credit). In which case each role gets a buff/curse upon queuing that encourages playing within that role. Role queuing would need some level of intelligence like a GWF not able to queue as healer but would need to allow things like a Sentinel GWF queue as a tank. Templock queue as a healer. Right DO queue as a dps. Obviously loadouts hurt the viability of this option because people will undoubtedly change their load-out after entering to form new metas. This could be used to reduce some of the inbalances by giving bonuses to the strength in which that role which to play. I would only do this for public queue which could provide additional incentive to use this function.

    In the old days we had dungeons that favored certain team compositions. This was quickly overwritten by the empowerment of CWs. But instead of each dungeon introduction having to suit the entire audience perhaps the answer is in having a suit of dungeons that encouraged different compositions. This would also be interesting to get an idea of the devs perspective on the roles. Once upon a time a healer was a healer, but now we have 3 types of healers and theoretically each would have a niche in certain scenarios, so under what scenario or dungeon would each hero really shine? When would you take a templock over a healidon for example.

    Mount insignia bonuses are just bad. To many self heals, to many stats, advanced runspeed all with minimal investment, while they are fun, I don't think they were healthy for the game and I think they should be toned down.

    I'm sure I've had more and probably better examples in random rants, but these are a good start.


    *added diminishing returns per discussion below and mount insignia bonuses
    Post edited by putzboy78 on
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1227227

    BTW on the topic of lightning there are very interesting points in the original thread that should be considered.

    The intention was for Vorpal/Dread to remain king for dps despite introducing scaling. Which they haven't. Given these enchants have the advantage of not being gated behind stacking crit chance (free's up offensive stats).

    Obviously that's not necessarily a bad thing but in the context of the discussion the developer relayed why they wanted to keep this pecking order. I'm not sure that the devs comprehended the enchant changes could possibly remove the need for aoe specialist or could further widen the gap between GWF and other dps classes or that power scaling could create such a high gap in dps when ran through the power buffing machines that are DCs and OPs.


  • thrill#1417 thrill Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    Don't kid yourselves, there will still be guys upset that they can't get T9G groups with their 13k SS Thaum CW. The just simply refuse to build a useful buff version of their class.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Don't kid yourselves, there will still be guys upset that they can't get T9G groups with their 13k SS Thaum CW. The just simply refuse to build a useful buff version of their class.

    Don´t know exactly what you refer to?
    But yes there are allways player without the will and knowledge to build their class properly, that counts for all classes.
    And there will allways be player in a dungeon, telling you how to play your class, by that only proving to have 100% no clue what they talk about.

    @putzboy78 I aggree about most of that stuff, same as the roles to pick by queuing for a dungeon. That´s what other mmo's allready did before, but you were inable to switch roles in that dungeon.
    Only problem is the viability of that class/role.
    When it doesn´t matter how good one plays and his build is 100% optimized for that class/role at BIS level, but is far worse than a naked player with a green weapon and no boons on another class ... that´s where balance is definitely needed.
    Either you need to buff that class or care about the other one.
    When I started this game I wondered about those buffs from the first day on. 40%+dps, +35%, double damage by using an encounter? The list is endless and displays the current situation this game suffers from.
    They fail to balance PVP, an impossible mission anyway without menpower, same as they fail to balance PVE.

    The new mod brings out new gear wich fits into powercreep. 3%+dps for meleeattacks on 2-3 pieces of gear, guess what that will lead to.
    Lolset, Aura of courage, procs that scale with power and buffs will allways favour that class that has the most power (by feats) and the most selfbuffs on top.
    Imo they got time enough to understand some simple and obvious things during the last years concerning open buff and statsharin etc..
    But I guess the omnipresent pressure to release new mods and the let´s say fear to upset any class seems to hinder most attempts and they lack in menpower.
    If I was a dev, I would not ask any player, if this or that tweak, buff or nerf is needed as long as I know it leads to a good result. I would fix it and compensate on the other hand as fast as possible.
    If someone wants to ragequitt this game due to a needed fix I would not care bc I know: "It´s Free to play- MMO and there will be a next generation, and they will benefit in the long run from my decisions."

    Sound harsh, but I think a lot of problems are born out of inconsequence.
    One player got all the toys, the other one none. Player N° 1 shouts: "No, I want to keep them, no, no, no !!" ....Let it be?
    If I ask a child what his wishes are for now, it might say: "I want to watch TV all day long" ...Good decision, allow him to do so?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    IL is a horrible measure for a player ability to play their class effectively. The group I run with was a bit upset I could not join them the other day. They were glad to pick up a 17.1K IL AC DC that used AA 3 times in the run. I'm like, WHAT? That is what I do in 60 seconds. LOL. The DC spent the run explaining the dungeon to a group that already has completed it as a group a handful of times and the first time in, it took them under 20 minutes after the bonding adjustments. That run with the high IL DC was the longest run for them. IL from my experience means jack. If you don't have the right enchantments, gear, etc...you will hurt your build. May player go for IL and not necessary the correct build to maximize their character.

    This fix to DC will not fix that problem. What it will show is just how bad some DC's really are and the fact some of these higher IL DC's were simply carried through content.

    I've seen my fair share of high IL GWF, CW, DC, etc... that simply don't have what it takes to play end game content.

  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User

    Don't kid yourselves, there will still be guys upset that they can't get T9G groups with their 13k SS Thaum CW. The just simply refuse to build a useful buff version of their class.

    I don't think its a refusal exactly. I think people enjoy playing the game a certain way and they don't enjoy playing the game as support. There is nothing wrong with playing the game the way you enjoy and I'd rather see people enjoy the game while playing non-optimally than trying to force themselves to play a way they don't enjoy and thus resent the game.

    The only trick is you can't be upset if people don't want to play with you when your playing non-optimally because your performance also impacts their enjoyment. Basically play however you want, just don't rage about being picked last for dodgeball.


    Only problem is the viability of that class/role.
    When it doesn´t matter how good one plays and his build is 100% optimized for that class/role at BIS level, but is far worse than a naked player with a green weapon and no boons on another class ... that´s where balance is definitely needed.
    Either you need to buff that class or care about the other one.

    Good point, I added to the list diminishing returns. Which I can't believe I initially forgot. The problem with not having diminishing returns is it creates huge gaps in performance and I attribute a great deal of the build and ilvl disparity to this.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    IL is a horrible measure for a player ability to play their class effectively. The group I run with was a bit upset I could not join them the other day. They were glad to pick up a 17.1K IL AC DC that used AA 3 times in the run. I'm like, WHAT? That is what I do in 60 seconds. LOL. The DC spent the run explaining the dungeon to a group that already has completed it as a group a handful of times and the first time in, it took them under 20 minutes after the bonding adjustments. That run with the high IL DC was the longest run for them. IL from my experience means jack. If you don't have the right enchantments, gear, etc...you will hurt your build. May player go for IL and not necessary the correct build to maximize their character.

    This fix to DC will not fix that problem. What it will show is just how bad some DC's really are and the fact some of these higher IL DC's were simply carried through content.

    I've seen my fair share of high IL GWF, CW, DC, etc... that simply don't have what it takes to play end game content.

    Well, while I agree, that IL does not show, if a player can play, the AC DC is one of the worst examples, to claim, that IL does not matter. IMO AC DC is viable, if his power share is significant enough, to outperform TI (simplified). To get to that kind of power you will need really good gear. You wont need 17k, but an AC DC with full R13 radiants in his offense slots, R 13 black ice in his defense slots and the gear to match will have 16k+ IL by default.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    ILVL is not necessarily an indicator of positioning, how much base power you have, and your up time on buffs/debuffs. You can stack power to the moon but if you AA, BoB, Exalt, painting bear your sins/condemning gaze, and BtS uptimes are low you still won't perform well in contrast a DO only has to focus on HG (doesn't require near as much precision on positioning), bear your sins/condemning gaze, BtS uptime. You can have a high ilvl and have spent it on crit for example. It's an old argument that there are factors outside of ilvl that can determine your contribution. On the flip side, what ilvl does is give you flexibility which allows you to hide or disguise other areas that may be lacking. So yes ILVL matters when it comes to LFG, but on friends lists ilvl is not important at all because you've had an opportunity to review the other stuff. There's no means to quantify the "other stuff". Or maybe LFG should be asking for minimum base powers and recovery?
  • chiennedeluxechiennedeluxe Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    Mod 13 will change nothing, 2 dc are gonna be even more needed. I went in tong on test server today tr, op, gf and 2 dc and it was the fastest run we ever did. 2 dc buffing 1 tr >2 dps + 1 dc. Nerfing DC buffs changed nothing BECAUSE the problem was never here. The problem is the DIFFERENCE in dammage output between classes that is way to big.

    This game is getting worst and worst each patch. Unless you play Tr and you dont care about balancing or fair play.
    Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
    Santa Claus --GF
    Gargamel --CW
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    Mod 13 will change nothing, 2 dc are gonna be even more needed. I went in tong on test server today tr, op, gf and 2 dc and it was the fastest run we ever did. 2 dc buffing 1 tr >2 dps + 1 dc. Nerfing DC buffs changed nothing BECAUSE the problem was never here. The problem is the DIFFERENCE in dammage output between classes that is way to big.

    This game is getting worst and worst each patch. Unless you play Tr and you dont care about balancing or fair play.

    I hope you will be wrong.

    Of course, speed runs will be quicker.
    But not all people have this egoist approach of 1 dps running with 4 supports, considering that there are so many dps begging for Tong.

    In my guild, we are currently having runs with 2 dps (at least with one of them able to carry the other if needed) and 3 supports (including 2 DCs), resulting in runs <25min (that are perfectly acceptable). Thus, we have a slot for anyone "weaker dps" wanting to do Tong.

    With the upgrade of damage/stats of module 13, we may be able to include a third dps or dps/support in our group composition. Sounds like we will be likely to achieve the expected standart composition (fingers crossed).

    ps: damage output between dps classes is indeed too big.
    ps: I have a DC 15.5 with both ac and do loadouts; I don't really mind the "fixes" because DCs will keep on being on high demand anyway.
    ps: the 2 dc thing also spreads to ETOS and lower level dungeons; i was invited in a run with ONE dps and 4 supports last week. No need to say I was upset of this group composition, because other "LFG" dps players could have joined instead.
    Post edited by werdandi#8366 on
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited January 2018


    In my guild, we are currently having runs with 2 dps (at least with one of them able to carry the other if needed) and 3 supports (including 2 DCs), resulting in runs <25min (that are perfectly acceptable). Thus, we have a slot for anyone "weaker dps" wanting to do Tong.</p>

    While most of the runs I do are with the "standard" DC/DC/OP/GWF/GF, I have run with a number of other combinations. 2 DC runs are generally a bit faster than single DC ones, but the difference is only a few minutes. I actually find that it is much more important that people know how to play their class and have a good, non-overlapping sett of debuff enchants, and good debuff companions. I am happy with any ToNG group having
    1. DO DC (me)
    2. OP - I consider a good OP the key to a smooth run.
    3. Primary DPS - typically GWF, but HRs or a good TR will do the job as well as a CW or even a DPS GF.
    4. Second buffer/debuffer - usually AC DC, but a SW or CW can fill this slot.
    5. Any class not already included - tank, third buffer or a secondary DPS.
    My only issue is with the TR. A TR as a secondary DPS is fine, but if the TR is the primary DPS, he has to be really, really good - I'm not talking about high IL, just the player's skills. An "average" TR is not going to make it. An "average" GWF can easily be the primary DPS in ToNG, but an "average" TR? No way.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    adinosii said:



    My only issue is with the TR. A TR as a secondary DPS is fine, but if the TR is the primary DPS, he has to be really, really good - I'm not talking about high IL, just the player's skills. An "average" TR is not going to make it. An "average" GWF can easily be the primary DPS in ToNG, but an "average" TR? No way.

    I know what you mean ^^
    The "weaker dps" taken as second dps for Tong are often TRs (some of them can be VERY weak doing less damage than my lower IL DODC) .
    But I know TRs able to destroy everything (including trash mobs) at same IL than the "weaker dps".

    Same applies to MOFs: some of them can dps quite a bit at the same time, some have no clue how to do it.

    As long as the run is successful and does not take too long, I don't mind "weaker dps" for the second dps slot, if I know that the primary dps will do the job.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    adinosii said:


    In my guild, we are currently having runs with 2 dps (at least with one of them able to carry the other if needed) and 3 supports (including 2 DCs), resulting in runs <25min (that are perfectly acceptable). Thus, we have a slot for anyone "weaker dps" wanting to do Tong.</p>

    While most of the runs I do are with the "standard" DC/DC/OP/GWF/GF, I have run with a number of other combinations. 2 DC runs are generally a bit faster than single DC ones, but the difference is only a few minutes. I actually find that it is much more important that people know how to play their class and have a good, non-overlapping sett of debuff enchants, and good debuff companions. I am happy with any ToNG group having
    1. DO DC (me)
    2. OP - I consider a good OP the key to a smooth run.
    3. Primary DPS - typically GWF, but HRs or a good TR will do the job as well as a CW or even a DPS GF.
    4. Second buffer/debuffer - usually AC DC, but a SW or CW can fill this slot.
    5. Any class not already included - tank, third buffer or a secondary DPS.
    My only issue is with the TR. A TR as a secondary DPS is fine, but if the TR is the primary DPS, he has to be really, really good - I'm not talking about high IL, just the player's skills. An "average" TR is not going to make it. An "average" GWF can easily be the primary DPS in ToNG, but an "average" TR? No way.
    You can burn through that dungeon with lot´s of combinations of classes. The only problem is to pick that one out of 20 player from TR/warlock/mofCW/devo-OP etc. , that runs a good setup for his build.
    I want to highlight two points about the difficulty to get this done (burn through) in a considerable ammount of runs, picking those "unfavoured classes or builds".
    In at least 8 out of 10 runs you will suffer from 2 player, that can´t handle their class the way they could.
    DO-DC and OP (in any form), same as GWF to some degree seem to be way more forgiving classes to compensate a lack of let´s say "underperfomance".
    DO needs 1 button to klick (HG) to outperform many other classes, and the run will succeed somehow.
    TR is not that forgiving, same as otherones.
    Normally it´s like knowing 1 outstanding mofCW out of >20, so you hesitate to invite an unknown player of that class. Same counts for SW, TR.
    Regarding GWF, DO-DC, GF and OP, you can´t be that wrong in most cases, but sure there are exceptions. A lot of OP´s really are a burdon tbh, player that hopped on that classes and never tried to arrange stats or gear /boon up. So you might end up with an OP at 16k basepower and no clue what aura to run, asking yourself : "How could this be?"
    Two days ago a warlock out dps´d a high geared GWF at Avatar of Orcus, that GWF had that bloody buff. These are exceptions, that normally don´t happen.

    Another point that was allready mentioned several times, is the tankyness and tools for mitigation those classes got at same time, talking about GF, OP, GWF, DC (the "squishy" out of those).
    HG, AA, AS, CoP, SoF, DG, KV and more to name.

    So in the end the standart in times off oneshooting mobs and crazy encounter that, stunn, burn or oneshot you at same time will allways be those tanky, buffy classes, building the stock with two others on top. This will last through mod 13, 14, 15, 16 , 17 , l8 and so on.
    Devs decided this way to go, creating classes with most buff and tankyness at same time, same as decided to extict any need of cc or heals.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    asterotg said:

    IL is a horrible measure for a player ability to play their class effectively. The group I run with was a bit upset I could not join them the other day. They were glad to pick up a 17.1K IL AC DC that used AA 3 times in the run. I'm like, WHAT? That is what I do in 60 seconds. LOL. The DC spent the run explaining the dungeon to a group that already has completed it as a group a handful of times and the first time in, it took them under 20 minutes after the bonding adjustments. That run with the high IL DC was the longest run for them. IL from my experience means jack. If you don't have the right enchantments, gear, etc...you will hurt your build. May player go for IL and not necessary the correct build to maximize their character.

    This fix to DC will not fix that problem. What it will show is just how bad some DC's really are and the fact some of these higher IL DC's were simply carried through content.

    I've seen my fair share of high IL GWF, CW, DC, etc... that simply don't have what it takes to play end game content.

    Well, while I agree, that IL does not show, if a player can play, the AC DC is one of the worst examples, to claim, that IL does not matter. IMO AC DC is viable, if his power share is significant enough, to outperform TI (simplified). To get to that kind of power you will need really good gear. You wont need 17k, but an AC DC with full R13 radiants in his offense slots, R 13 black ice in his defense slots and the gear to match will have 16k+ IL by default.

    What would a AC DC require unbuffed (WoL buff removed) without companion stats to be as effective or more effective than a DO with TI slotted?

    Most DC's do not realize the power you share is your base power, unbuffed and the only way to get an idea of that is to remove WoL and not have your companion summoned.

    I heard a base of 30K or more is needed to be equal to or higher than a DO with TI slotted. My base, and I still can improve my gear and enchantments, is above 36K. If that is the case, than even a 15K AC DC can do the job of a DO. The thing is though, a 15K DC build tends to be an expensive build. You have to have the right gear, enchantments, mount insignia, correct insignia bonus, etc... A AC DC also should aim for a 4K power mount and a loin for the combat power. Getting a BiS AC DC is costly. I know as I built mine to be that.

    With updating my gear and enchantments I should hit a base of 42-45K. Which is my goal on my DC. I'm also aiming for recovery in the 20K range. I'm at 36K power and 16K recovery as of now. I know my recovery can increase with a few enchantment swaps on my companion and getting my bondings to R14, that is a lesser concern for me. My main focus is upgrading my offensive enchantments on my DC at the present to R13.

    I do have a question though about Calvary Warning vs. Magistrate Patience, which one is better for me as a DC. I can use either or. I was think of keeping Calvary for my solo adventures and using Magistrate for my group runs (extra healing on crit hits).





  • dony2629#8239 dony2629 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    > Some of the complaints about the "2 DC meta" were made by DPSers that complained that nobody wanted them in ToNG runs, and it was unfair to let DCs take up 2 "slots", leaving them out in the cold.
    >
    > You know what...this is not going to change anything for them - in fact, with the nerfs making ToNG runs slightly harder than before, groups are going to be even less likely than before to want to take an "average" TR, for example - the onnly thing that will change is that instead of us seeing "LF2M AC DC, DO DC" we will now see "LF2M AC DC, MoF CW". Nothing changes regarding the underlying problem, which is that people don't want to run the content with "1 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer", simply because that is slow and painful. People are still going to want one primary DPS and the rest of the team buffing him/her.
    >
    > Now, it seems to me that the idea behind the nerf is to reduce the usefulness of DO DCs in group to the point where they will no longer be wanted and encourage people to bring CWs instead - or (probably) Bards once they get introduced (Mod 14?).
    >
    > I mention DOs in particular, as the nerfs seem designed to hit them much harder than ACs.
    >
    > So, let's look a bit closer at the individual changes.
    > * Non-stacking BYS. Not surprising, I had expected this, and it affects ACs and DOs equally.
    >
    > * Non-stacking WoL. Again, not surprising, I had also expected this, and it affects ACs slightly more than DOS, as ACs typically have higher Power.
    >
    > * HG nerf. This pretty much only affects DOs, as HG is the only useful DO daily in group PvE content. The DO-specific Hammer of Faith is pretty much only useful in PvP. This reduction is a pretty bug nerf to DOs and their usefulness in groups.
    >
    > * BtS nerf. The "standard practice" today in 2 DC groups is that the AC takes FF and the DO takes BtS - this works out better than the other way around for various reasons. So, this is another nerf to DOs, reducing their usefulness in groups even further.
    >
    > * Non-stacking Exaltation. I did not think that haviing multiple ACs in the group was ever done, but maybe the motivation for this is that you want to discourage people from replacing the DO with another AC.
    >
    > * FF run-speed nerf. Seriously - why bother? I don't see this as having any real effect anywhere.
    >
    >
    > So, the plan seems to have been: Make the DO only viable for playing solo content, have people use the AC in groups, and if they want more buffs, bring a CW.
    >
    > So, bottom line - DO DCs are now far less useful in groups that they used to be and some groups may want to replace the DO with a MoF CW or possibly a SW (or later, a Bard). In order to make the DO not completely useless, Flame Strike got a buff, but of course, that's usually only used in solo content. Content like ToNG will now be a bit harder than before. Groups that used to run it in 18-19 minutes will now take 20-22. Groups that barely could finish in an hour will now fail. Have fun.
    I've been saying it an I'll say it again , this dc nerf is going to hit the lower item level toons more than the higher , no ones going to take a chance on a 15k or even 16k in some cases any longer .I'll be looking for full 17k groups , all the cry babies managed to f___ alot of people over .t9 will be out of reach for 90% of the player base ( this wont change the 2 dc meta hg an aa will still stack ) I've carried 13,14k toons through many of dungeons .nice of you nerds to f that up
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    MSPC is harder than ToNG. In MSPC the group I run with we have ran a variety of groups.

    It is usually me as the DC and my friend as the OP tank. We also typically have a GWF or a HR that is either a Trapper or Combat. We fill the last two sports with whoever is available or calling out for MSPC. The average time we get to complete the runs are around 30 minutes, if everyone pays attention on the 2nd boss.

    Fastest run was a 2 DC run and it was around 28 minutes, no wipes, that group was all 15K+. I'm sorry but a few minutes shaved off is not enough for me to justify leaving out another player simply because a meta is preferred by the community.

    My former guild leader even stated that a none meta group completed ToNG in reasonable time.

    The problem is not what the devs do for game adjustments, it is the community wanting to SPEED RUN through all NEW content, instead of enjoying it and getting as many players through it as possible. That is the problem. Mod 13 Trial we will see the same garbage that SVA had. Instead of DC's it will be Pally's. I'm sure at this point Pally's powersharing stacks and we will see a call out for Pally healers, Tanks, etc....yippie...

    The new Meta will be OP Tank, Pally Healer, DC, MoF/Templock for additional stats sharing and 1 DPS. That will probably be the new meta.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018

    asterotg said:

    IL is a horrible measure for a player ability to play their class effectively. The group I run with was a bit upset I could not join them the other day. They were glad to pick up a 17.1K IL AC DC that used AA 3 times in the run. I'm like, WHAT? That is what I do in 60 seconds. LOL. The DC spent the run explaining the dungeon to a group that already has completed it as a group a handful of times and the first time in, it took them under 20 minutes after the bonding adjustments. That run with the high IL DC was the longest run for them. IL from my experience means jack. If you don't have the right enchantments, gear, etc...you will hurt your build. May player go for IL and not necessary the correct build to maximize their character.

    This fix to DC will not fix that problem. What it will show is just how bad some DC's really are and the fact some of these higher IL DC's were simply carried through content.

    I've seen my fair share of high IL GWF, CW, DC, etc... that simply don't have what it takes to play end game content.

    Well, while I agree, that IL does not show, if a player can play, the AC DC is one of the worst examples, to claim, that IL does not matter. IMO AC DC is viable, if his power share is significant enough, to outperform TI (simplified). To get to that kind of power you will need really good gear. You wont need 17k, but an AC DC with full R13 radiants in his offense slots, R 13 black ice in his defense slots and the gear to match will have 16k+ IL by default.

    What would a AC DC require unbuffed (WoL buff removed) without companion stats to be as effective or more effective than a DO with TI slotted?

    Most DC's do not realize the power you share is your base power, unbuffed and the only way to get an idea of that is to remove WoL and not have your companion summoned.

    I heard a base of 30K or more is needed to be equal to or higher than a DO with TI slotted. My base, and I still can improve my gear and enchantments, is above 36K. If that is the case, than even a 15K AC DC can do the job of a DO. The thing is though, a 15K DC build tends to be an expensive build. You have to have the right gear, enchantments, mount insignia, correct insignia bonus, etc... A AC DC also should aim for a 4K power mount and a loin for the combat power. Getting a BiS AC DC is costly. I know as I built mine to be that.

    With updating my gear and enchantments I should hit a base of 42-45K. Which is my goal on my DC. I'm also aiming for recovery in the 20K range. I'm at 36K power and 16K recovery as of now. I know my recovery can increase with a few enchantment swaps on my companion and getting my bondings to R14, that is a lesser concern for me. My main focus is upgrading my offensive enchantments on my DC at the present to R13.

    I do have a question though about Calvary Warning vs. Magistrate Patience, which one is better for me as a DC. I can use either or. I was think of keeping Calvary for my solo adventures and using Magistrate for my group runs (extra healing on crit hits).

    I thought Companion bonus (legendary 1+2+3) counts to basepower?
    Aura Gifts stack? never heared of that tbh.
    To overcome TI (20%+dps) as an AC DC by buffing with HG+WoL+BoB (HG>AA), you need to share with BoB 18k+ (buff+rebuff) when your ally has 50k power, 24k when your ally is at 80k power and 32k when your ally has 120k buffed power, wich is number in reach from aura gifts and WoL.
    TI will allways overcome your BoB in the end at higher power level in a buffergroup, 32k is not to sahre by BoB.

    But you can go for recovery and cast double daily. Even doing so and uptime is 100%, AA+BoB are 45% powerstat shared on top.
    Provided your allies and their companions are alive and in reach and got bondings rank 14 (195%), that´s at 45k basepower about 60k shared power towards your group, about 20k without companionrebuff.
    In the end that´s a pretty hard task, since the range of BoB and AA is limited vs TI and you allways miss that stupid Fire Archon standing 20' at distance not to talk of the fact that it´s not that easy to hold up AA+HG 100% all time.
    Imo it´s near impossible to overcome a DO in terms of groupbuffs when you got a strong OP by your side.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    The problem with the current TONG design is it is dps specific thanks to timer mechanics built into boss 1 and 3. So while yes combinations are possible and the Meta isn't necessary people are so afraid of failure they don't want to give others a try. And without being an elitist prick and demanding super high ilvls for everyone this can get exposed. If there wasn't a timer mechanic then you can win the dungeon with a combination of time and protection.


    Normally it´s like knowing 1 outstanding mofCW out of >20, so you hesitate to invite an unknown player of that class. Same counts for SW, TR.

    The reason you can find so many MOFs that aren't good is they are using an MOF loadout with a dps character. They haven't built the character as a support and they didn't make a wizard to be a support. This is the problem with a limitation on dps roles, It forces players into roles they don't enjoy playing. If you don't enjoy it, you won't be good at it.
  • superent666superent666 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    .
  • superent666superent666 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited January 2018


    What would a AC DC require unbuffed (WoL buff removed) without companion stats to be as effective or more effective than a DO with TI slotted?

    Most DC's do not realize the power you share is your base power, unbuffed and the only way to get an idea of that is to remove WoL and not have your companion summoned.

    I heard a base of 30K or more is needed to be equal to or higher than a DO with TI slotted. My base, and I still can improve my gear and enchantments, is above 36K. If that is the case, than even a 15K AC DC can do the job of a DO. The thing is though, a 15K DC build tends to be an expensive build. You have to have the right gear, enchantments, mount insignia, correct insignia bonus, etc... A AC DC also should aim for a 4K power mount and a loin for the combat power. Getting a BiS AC DC is costly. I know as I built mine to be that.

    With updating my gear and enchantments I should hit a base of 42-45K. Which is my goal on my DC. I'm also aiming for recovery in the 20K range. I'm at 36K power and 16K recovery as of now. I know my recovery can increase with a few enchantment swaps on my companion and getting my bondings to R14, that is a lesser concern for me. My main focus is upgrading my offensive enchantments on my DC at the present to R13.

    I do have a question though about Calvary Warning vs. Magistrate Patience, which one is better for me as a DC. I can use either or. I was think of keeping Calvary for my solo adventures and using Magistrate for my group runs (extra healing on crit hits).

    My very lowly 14.4k AC has 43k+ base power and shitloads of recovery coming from the legendary sellsword with r13 bondings (not ALL silveries R13 yet but some..) and still my DO (basically the same just two rings swapped in from my cw) laughs pointing a finger at his poor AC twins´ buffing potential while the latter (ever since the bonding change - nerf AND asinine cooldown) is an impossible whinebag drama king constantly crying a river...lol...seriously, I wish he was as oblivious as to how his powershare works as (apparently) a lot of AC´s...it´s as they say: ignorance is bliss:)
    Not that the DO is happy...he´s impossibly bored and wishes he had at least two freaking dailies to cast and some more ways to distinguish himself from the next DO but no...no- devs don´t have time for insignificant things like working on classes (for real).
    But seriously - it´s like some didn´t realize the nerf to bondings nerfed away the viability of the AC as anything other than as the 2nd dc in a party. Or maybe (?) if your AC is BIS in all things relevant to an AC and you´re optimistic that the cooldown on bondings is actually a fun new mechanic to work with. That´s what the funny dev meant by keeping both viable - AC being viable as 2nd dc or at BIS-stage (in perfect circumstances and with party members who have maxed bondings etc.)... :D

  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    i will keep say this all the time, to end the 2 dc meta the dev team need to add an exception for all 5 PLAYER QUEUE MUST HHAVE 1 "HEALER" char, no needing to nerf the dc class. @nitocris83 @asterdahl pass along to the dev team.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    arcanjo86 said:

    i will keep say this all the time, to end the 2 dc meta the dev team need to add an exception for all 5 PLAYER QUEUE MUST HHAVE 1 "HEALER" char, no needing to nerf the dc class. @nitocris83 @asterdahl pass along to the dev team.

    and you will continue to be wrong, forcing someone into party is already there for public queues. There is no reason to add this requirement to private queue. Private queue should be free to take whatever party people choose (or not have full party if that's the choice). And forcing a healer in party for private queue won't stop the 2 dc meta, its multiple dcs that people don't like not that they don't have a "healer" in party.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    putzboy78 said:

    on a serious note. Noone truly cares that there is a 2DC meta. They care that there is a meta that doesn't include them, someone will always be outside the meta. As stated many times before, the trick is to provide an award system that encourages grouping outside of the meta. This can be done by reducing the disparity of reward to run time between meta runs and non-meta runs.

    ^^This^^

    It does not matter if it is 2 DC, 1 DC and a MoF, 1 DC and a Templock or even 1 MoF and a Templock.

    As long the meta includes more buffers and less true DPS, players will complain.

    There are a few TR and CW that use to play only DPS and now their main is a DC. Wonder why that is?

    If a CW buffer gets love or become part of the meta group, you will see more call out for a CW.

    If a DO is better than a AC DC than why are groups not running with a MoF and a DO? Wouldn't the debuff from the MoF along with the 20% damage buff out weigh adding a AC DC to group?

    Forget even bringing in a healer, just bring in a Templock, forget a GWF, bring a GF who can do more damage on bosses than a GWF anyway.

    So new meta groups will be...

    OP Tank
    GF DPS
    MoF buffer
    Templock
    DO DC

    Not a single pure DPS in this group, everyone does buffing.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    > @putzboy78 said:
    > on a serious note. Noone truly cares that there is a 2DC meta. They care that there is a meta that doesn't include them, someone will always be outside the meta. As stated many times before, the trick is to provide an award system that encourages grouping outside of the meta. This can be done by reducing the disparity of reward to run time between meta runs and non-meta runs.

    I can run my DC, Warlock or GF in Tong.
    I simply can't see one single argument, why my DC is 4 times more effective than my warlock and why I need to run 24/7 with a 2DC meta in that dungeon.
    And according to the relation between supporter and striker, I don't like 4xsupporter runs, same as double DC, i care about it and I hope those stacking megabuff are adressed and content is adjusted.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    I sit and feel that the 2 dc ordeal was never an intended thing. I feel they never fully tested what would happen if we ran 2 of whatever class to see what happens. Their focus was aimed on tong random ques and in a random your never really get 2 dc. it would have to be private que. I am glad to see they are trying to fix their mistake. What I also hope for is that they take the time to fix other mistakes they have made. I also feel that by doing this random ques for tong will actually work out and those that have made alot of keys will actually be able to maybe use them.
    People do get upset over nerfs but what people do not really realize is that nerfs makes things more balanced. Look at it this way 2 dc making a 12K or 13K do a ton of damage isnt that really a bit to powerful?
    I am glad that they are fixing that. Shows me they are trying to at least tone down stuff to balance things out.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    Here is why the 2 DC meta will still be viable.

    1) DO will still provide a 20% buff from TI. Instead of going with Weapon of Light the DO DC will use Foresight for added group defensive abilities
    2) AC DC will be the powering sharing DC


    What I do not get is why MoF are not part of the current meta group. Imagine how quickly a boss would melt with an additional 20% damage buff and an additional debuffs. A MoF damage is about 60% of an equally gear DPS.


  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User

    Here is why the 2 DC meta will still be viable.

    1) DO will still provide a 20% buff from TI. Instead of going with Weapon of Light the DO DC will use Foresight for added group defensive abilities
    2) AC DC will be the powering sharing DC

    What I do not get is why MoF are not part of the current meta group. Imagine how quickly a boss would melt with an additional 20% damage buff and an additional debuffs. A MoF damage is about 60% of an equally gear DPS.

    The reason why double DC will stay through mod 13 and on is, because both classes together add far more buffs than any other combination of classes same as far more mitigation, AP gain and encounter reset than any other classcombination.
    No other combo off classes will buff and protect a group that way and you can do the math following some sheets, telling you it´s a significant difference, simple as that.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Here is why the 2 DC meta will still be viable.

    1) DO will still provide a 20% buff from TI. Instead of going with Weapon of Light the DO DC will use Foresight for added group defensive abilities
    2) AC DC will be the powering sharing DC

    What I do not get is why MoF are not part of the current meta group. Imagine how quickly a boss would melt with an additional 20% damage buff and an additional debuffs. A MoF damage is about 60% of an equally gear DPS.

    The reason why double DC will stay through mod 13 and on is, because both classes together add far more buffs than any other combination of classes same as far more mitigation, AP gain and encounter reset than any other classcombination.
    No other combo off classes will buff and protect a group that way and you can do the math following some sheets, telling you it´s a significant difference, simple as that.
    Not completely true.

    A MoF CW Renegade with a DO will burn through content faster in groups than a AC DC and a DO. The damage buff from the two classes stack and the MoF adds a defense debuff to enemies with its dailies.

    We ran FBI and MSPC; I played on my near BiS AC DC and than on my work in progress CW MoF Renegade. The CW runs were faster than with my AC DC. We used the same OP Tank, GWF, HR and DO DC. With me as the CW, our runs were 1-2 shorter than my AC DC runs.

    I keep hearing how OP two DC's are but I keep seeing actual results being different that that. I have not tried a ToNG run yet with this group on my CW as my first concern is getting what I need for primal pieces on my DC.
Sign In or Register to comment.